Women in leadership roles....

[His_child]

Sincereheart,

 
I might also add, about Adam . . .he didn't need no snake to tempt him to blame someone, he came up with the blaming on HIS OWN.  And did you notice who got the bigger a-s chewing?  It was Adam, and do you know why?  It's only when we're sorry for our sin that we find forgiveness, not when we blame someone for our sin.  

Adam and Eve were both punished for their own sins (and not the sins of the other).
They both played the blame game.
Satan tempted Eve probably because he knew that she would be the easier target.
Adam, as the head of Eve, should have not given into her. He let both of them down when he let her have the power to sway him.

It just cracks me up the way that some women are so conditioned to think that men are not utterly flawed.

hmm... I don't think anyone on this forum said that.  

You think that YOUR behavior is going to make or break your husband--it is only the Lord and the Holy Spirit's work in a man's heart-- but that's another subject.  

As a wife I know that I can sway my husband's decisions. When he fulfills his duties as head of house, things go great for us. When he fails, disaster results.
As a Christian wife, I have learned that the power of prayer is amazing and also that our family is better off letting God sway him.

[C C]

 

I have no clue about marriage.  My own husbands only goals in life were to get more money and buy more stuff to impress more people.  His goals in life were to impress people with possessions.  I wasn't a Christian, but those weren't my goals.  I decided I had enough of his greed and I moved on.

Personally, in life, in the real world and in this day and age, the mass majority of men have goals that don't revolve around Christ.  Some Christians instead of being Salt and Light in the world are huddled in Christian basements and secret Christian hideouts, I'm sure never experience the real world, never met a selfish greedy man in their whole life, I am sure.  

As women in Christ and under grace, I will consistently, profess that legalism in this submission issue is unwise.  I don't say I know everything about marriage, but I do know quite a bit about legalism.

Legalism is when you've got your mind on rules and your heart off of Christ, who is the One we're supposed to be following.

Of course, there's always the danger that someone will in their selfish motives say that their mind is on Christ when they don't want to cooperate or submit, and there's always the danger that men that want their way, though it may be wrong, insist on submission.

The scriptures says, "HUSBANDS SUBMIT TO YOUR WIVES"

Which to me says that there's some kind of team work that's supposed to be happening in marriage.  It's not a one way street.

Anyway, none of my insistence is directly related to marriage.

My issue of women in leadership roles is about GRACE.  

Clearly, in the past and to this day evil men will abound.  They will.  It happens.  Clearly, in the past God has raised up Female leaders and in His Mighty Hand He may do it again.  It will be the legalists that will attack her.  And like the Pharisees they'll be fighting against God.  People that say that God cannot raise up a female leader are legalists.  That's my whole point.

Grace

[Allinall]

The principle Paul is teaching here is order.  God does things decently and in order.  Not every prophet is to speak at once.  They are to speak so as to build up the assembly.  If one has a message that is more profitable for the assembly the other is to keep silent.  Paul then says women are not to speak in the assembly.  I know guys that feel they shouldn't sing, or even talk!  But that's a little out of context, isn't it?  Especially since Paul also spoke of one fellas daughters who prophesied in the church and did so favorably.  The speaking is instructing.  And for a woman to instruct a man...well, Paul deals with that as well.  It's not to take place as she is not to usurp his authority.  That does not mean that the man is to lord over her, or even that she has nothing valid to say.  She is to ask her husband.  Why? Because he has all of the answers?  No.  Because that is God's design.  She asks her husband who is her head.  He asks Jesus who is his Head.  

Is the man better than the woman then?  By no means!  There is neither male nor female in the assembly as far as God is concerned.  But there is order.  There is structure and the expectation of that structure being enacted.  The woman is not the lead.  The man is.  Problem is, men don't lead.  Women take up the slack, and are wrong.  So are the men.  But if a woman asks her non-leading husband a biblical question, what's he going to do?  In most cases, be flattered.  And to not look like a moron in front of his wife, study to answer her question.  Does she know the answer?  Remains to be seen.  

In my life, my wife asks me things from time to time.  Sometimes because she really doesn't know.  Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.  When I do, I'm able to build her up.  When I don't, we are able to build each other up as we learn.

Sometimes she does know, but follows the example given.  I.E., last night at our bible study, I was going off on a tangent another fellow started.  But I was missing the key verse that clarified everything.  She quietly asks me what that verse means then if my tangent was right.  She was right and I wasn't.  I pointed that out to everyone!  And the issue was solved, biblically in truth and in practice.  I would have had no problem with her simply saying so on her own, but her obedience to God's word was blinding to me.  It built me up, and those around us as well.

Just a thought...

APPLAUDS! Well said!

Why thank you!

[Allinall]

Sincereheart,

 
I might also add, about Adam . . .he didn't need no snake to tempt him to blame someone, he came up with the blaming on HIS OWN.  And did you notice who got the bigger a-s chewing?  It was Adam, and do you know why?  It's only when we're sorry for our sin that we find forgiveness, not when we blame someone for our sin.  

It just cracks me up the way that some women are so conditioned to think that men are not utterly flawed.  

You think that YOUR behavior is going to make or break your husband--it is only the Lord and the Holy Spirit's work in a man's heart-- but that's another subject.  

This would be class A example of why women aren't biblically to have leadership in Christ's assembly.  Namely, because the focus is unbiblical.  How?  Lemme see...

I might also add, about Adam . . .he didn't need no snake to tempt him to blame someone, he came up with the blaming on HIS OWN.  And did you notice who got the bigger a-s chewing?  It was Adam, and do you know why?  It's only when we're sorry for our sin that we find forgiveness, not when we blame someone for our sin.

I find Paul's teaching on this very thing quite interesting.  You see, he says that the woman isn't to usurp authority over the man because the woman, not the man, was deceived.  In other words, she was not able to discern between Godly truth and Satan's lies.  But Adam didn't get chewed more because he wasn't sorry enough.  You see when Eve sinned, her punishment was pain in child bearing.  When Adam sinned, eternal damnation came upon all mankind.  Why?  Because Adam failed to be the leader God had called him to be.  He followed Eve's lead - Eve, who had been deceived.  

Now.  Here's a kicker for the guys.  Adam, was not deceived.  Great for him right?  Riiiiiight.  Rather than being deceived, Adam willingly chose to disbelieve and disobey God concerning God's command.  Adam had the facts and the proper discernment thereof.  He simply chose to disregard them.  Hence, his punishment was far greater and affected not only him, but Eve and the rest of us as well.

Adam and Eve both blameshifted.  Both sinned.  But God laid the blame for the sin on Adam's shoulders alone.  He does the same in families Candice.  One day I will stand before my God and answer for my wife's actions, and the actions of both of my daughters.  They are accountable for their own sins, but I will be accountable for all.  My wife, will answer for her sins alone.  Not mine or our daughters.  Hers.  Don't be so ready to take on the responsibilities that God has laid on the man.

It just cracks me up the way that some women are so conditioned to think that men are not utterly flawed.

You've never met my wife.  She knows my flaws, and often reminds me of them!    Nevertheless, she follows God's will for her in our marriage, and sets an example for so many in our church that it doesn't go unnoticed.

You think that YOUR behavior is going to make or break your husband--it is only the Lord and the Holy Spirit's work in a man's heart-- but that's another subject.  

My answer?  YES.[/b][/u]  Consider:

Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives--when they see your respectful and pure conduct.

1 Peter 3:1-2

Peter sure thought so.  And I'll stick with him anyday.  

Just a thought here Candice.  I'm not arguing with you to make myself seem great, or to pump up a male's ego.  God has given me, as a husband and even more so as a father, a great responsibility.  I don't see myself as better.  I see myself as having much required of the much I have been given.

[C C]

AllinAll,

My point here isn't as much about women in leadership roles, in any particular place, but Legalism vs. Grace.

So, you've missed my point.  At least, since you aren't arguing about my point, then I'll supposed you've missed my point.

BUT FIRST!    I must defend my position about Adam's blaming.  Here is the exact text:

11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"
12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me-she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."
13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"
The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

Adam could have answered "Yes" to God's question.  But he didn't.  Instead he says, "The woman you put here with me-she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."  As IF he needed no repentance.

How is it unbliblical that I, as a woman, would look at that example and find out that it's probably a GOOD idea not to go around getting man to do something, because if it's WRONG, when God asks him about it, he might blame the woman???  Are you not supposed to learn lessons from the Bible.

What's so unbiblical about that?

(I know that the Holy  Spirit talks to men's hearts, and the Holy Spirit will lead them in the right direction.  There's a big difference between a woman focusing on her own behavior because it's pleasing to God, and a woman focusing her own behavior because she's manipulating man.  I'm against manipulation tactics that are designed to manipulate people.  The negative way of getting men's behavior to change.)

I might add,  And you can use this against me if you want; Did you notice how much Eve's response resembles Adams?  Do you think she was following his example?

Now, an unbiblical principle you threw forth?  Allinal, a man, teaching an unbiblical principle--why some men shouldn't teach in church???  No where from the beginning of the Bible until after the eating of the Apple did God make Adam the leader and Eve the follower.  No where.  At least I've read it over and over and I don't see it.  

If you find it and post it, I will stand corrected.

And after that, God didn't make Adam the leader and Eve the follower.  I might add, that the curse was that Adam would be her desire, what kind of curse is that?

And that man would rule over her.  That's part of the curse.  Are curses, usually God's ordained plan from the beginning.  

Wouldn't you say that having a man rule over you is a curse?  The Bible says its a curse.  But if a man is your desire, then there's no harm in pleasing him is there?  My pleasure and my desire are more in order.  Bossing people around is an entirely different topic then isn't it?

Well, I hope you answer because I can't wait to hear what you say.

Allinall, don't you get tired of people arguing to be right or wrong?  I'm not arguing to be right or wrong.  I actually like to discuss these things.  Like in a discussion.  I don't want to argue.

Grace!

[His_child]

Candace- how is the wife submitting to her husband considered legalism?

[sincereheart]

Sincereheart,

 
I might also add, about Adam . . .he didn't need no snake to tempt him to blame someone, he came up with the blaming on HIS OWN.  And did you notice who got the bigger a-s chewing?  It was Adam, and do you know why?  It's only when we're sorry for our sin that we find forgiveness, not when we blame someone for our sin.  

It just cracks me up the way that some women are so conditioned to think that men are not utterly flawed.  

You think that YOUR behavior is going to make or break your husband--it is only the Lord and the Holy Spirit's work in a man's heart-- but that's another subject.  

This would be class A example of why women aren't biblically to have leadership in Christ's assembly.  Namely, because the focus is unbiblical.  How?  Lemme see...

I might also add, about Adam . . .he didn't need no snake to tempt him to blame someone, he came up with the blaming on HIS OWN.  And did you notice who got the bigger a-s chewing?  It was Adam, and do you know why?  It's only when we're sorry for our sin that we find forgiveness, not when we blame someone for our sin.

I find Paul's teaching on this very thing quite interesting.  You see, he says that the woman isn't to usurp authority over the man because the woman, not the man, was deceived.  In other words, she was not able to discern between Godly truth and Satan's lies.  But Adam didn't get chewed more because he wasn't sorry enough.  You see when Eve sinned, her punishment was pain in child bearing.  When Adam sinned, eternal damnation came upon all mankind.  Why?  Because Adam failed to be the leader God had called him to be.  He followed Eve's lead - Eve, who had been deceived.  

Now.  Here's a kicker for the guys.  Adam, was not deceived.  Great for him right?  Riiiiiight.  Rather than being deceived, Adam willingly chose to disbelieve and disobey God concerning God's command.  Adam had the facts and the proper discernment thereof.  He simply chose to disregard them.  Hence, his punishment was far greater and affected not only him, but Eve and the rest of us as well.

Adam and Eve both blameshifted.  Both sinned.  But God laid the blame for the sin on Adam's shoulders alone.  He does the same in families Candice.  One day I will stand before my God and answer for my wife's actions, and the actions of both of my daughters.  They are accountable for their own sins, but I will be accountable for all.  My wife, will answer for her sins alone.  Not mine or our daughters.  Hers.  Don't be so ready to take on the responsibilities that God has laid on the man.

It just cracks me up the way that some women are so conditioned to think that men are not utterly flawed.

You've never met my wife.  She knows my flaws, and often reminds me of them!    Nevertheless, she follows God's will for her in our marriage, and sets an example for so many in our church that it doesn't go unnoticed.

You think that YOUR behavior is going to make or break your husband--it is only the Lord and the Holy Spirit's work in a man's heart-- but that's another subject.  

My answer?  YES.[/b][/u]  Consider:

Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives--when they see your respectful and pure conduct.

1 Peter 3:1-2

Peter sure thought so.  And I'll stick with him anyday.  

Just a thought here Candice.  I'm not arguing with you to make myself seem great, or to pump up a male's ego.  God has given me, as a husband and even more so as a father, a great responsibility.  I don't see myself as better.  I see myself as having much required of the much I have been given.

*MORE APPLAUSE* All in all, you're on a roll, Allinall!

[sincereheart]

It's your remarks that got me on a tangeant.
Ah, so I MADE you do it? Back to the Garden....

you're taking it personally.  Don't take it personally.
  Only when the remarks made are personal.

Sin sear heart,

If you were sincere in your heart

Now which of those is not personal?  


I don't even know you.
That is truer than you will ever know.

You shouldn't, at least in my opinion feel bad about anything I say.  Don't feel bad.
You didn't make me feel bad. You ended any dialogue where I would seriously consider anything you had to say.

you keep pointing out that I'm single--as if I'm so unhappy about it.
I had no idea whether you were happy or unhappy to be single. But the mere fact that you ARE single - or even add to that that you're happily divorced - says even more that you definitely don't need to be advising Christian women on ANY aspects of marriage.

There's no sense in arguing if your feelings are going to get hurt.
There's no sense arguing with anyone who puts their opinion above God's Word. Though where you got the idea that my feelings are hurt is beyond me. Again, you don't know me.

It's not a matter of following an instruction booklet.
No it's not. It should come naturally. But for those who need the instructions, they are explicitly stated so there SHOULD be no misunderstanding.  

Actually, its for your own freedom that I was arguing with you.
Thanks, but no thanks.   I am married to a wonderful, godly man who loves the Lord. I am cherished and loved and there is no doubt that my husband loves me MORE than he loves himself but LESS than he loves the Lord. He would willingly lay down his life for me. It took me years to accept that. It took me about the same amount of time to realize that God loves me even more than that. What, exactly, do you think I need freedom from?  


Ephesians 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

[sincereheart]

1 Peter 3:
Wives and Husbands
1 Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2 when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 3 Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. 4 Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. 5 For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, 6 like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.
7 Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

1 Corinthians 7:
16 How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?  

Ephesians 5:
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient.
22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church-- 30 for we are members of his body. 31 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." 32 This is a profound mystery--but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Colossians 3:
18 Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.
20 Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord.
21 Fathers, do not embitter your children, or they will become discouraged.
22 Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. 23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. 25 Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for his wrong, and there is no favoritism.

Proverbs 12:4
A wife of noble character is her husband's crown, but a disgraceful wife is like decay in his bones.
Proverbs 31:11
Her husband has full confidence in her and lacks nothing of value.
Proverbs 21:9
Better to live on a corner of the roof than share a house with a quarrelsome wife.
Proverbs 21:19
Better to live in a desert than with a quarrelsome and ill-tempered wife.
Proverbs 27:15
A quarrelsome wife is like a constant dripping on a rainy day;

Genesis 3:17
To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.

[ollie]

You're never going to get me to agree that paul says I can't talk in church.  and you're never going to get me to agree that every word Paul says is law.  Paul was trying to get people into a closer relationship with the Lord.  

So, whenever people read Paul's words such as "Say Hi to Lodacia"--or some other person living in his day, does everyone who reads that have to stop all that they are doing and say "Hi" to Locacia who is already with the Lord and  dead to us?  Is there not something in the Bible that's against speaking to the dead?  Yes there is.  Should we all drop everything we're doing to say "Hi" to Lodacia?  Let's all have a big seyance or however it's spelled and call up the dead so we can say Hi and send our greetings to Paul's friends of his day!  

Whoever says ALL of Paul's words apply to all of today is blind and groveling in the dark.

All I can say is that people that believe that all of Paul's words are law and we must submit to them are stunted in their spiritual growth and blind, missing the whole point that Paul was trying to make.  

"The only genuine motivation in the Christian life that will consistently sustain a godly lifestyle is love.  Any other motivation will eventually fail.  If contemporary Christians spent as much time developing loving intimacy with Christ as is spent in defining proper Christian behavior, the world would be a different place.  It isn't without basis that the unsaved world sees Christianity as a religion with a particular system of behavior.  Many Christians make that their focus too.  They want to know God's commandments in every area of life so to keep them.   . . .any approach to Christian living that focuses on keeping rules as a means of experienceing vitory or growing spiritually is LEGALISM.  Legalism is a system in which a person seeks to gain God's acceptance or blessing by what he does.  People who live this way are called LEGALISTS.   . . .Is your concept of the Christian life one which suggests that Gdo's primary concern with you is your behavior?  If so, you are a card-carrying member of the LEGALIST LODGE."

Therefore, when you open your Bible to study, focus on the words that Christ spoke to the Pharasees.  Don't focus on the words that Christ spoke to the sinners.

for the "Lodacia", "Locacia" section of this reply.
What a funny lesson to use about freedom from law. To show that the things Paul wrote are not all law.

However Paul did say this, "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord."
1 Corinthians 14:37.

Ollie

[Sower]

I do have strong opinions about whether or not all those scriptures that tell women to "sit down and shut up and do as your told" scriptures may have been misinterpreted and possibly taken out of context.

Candice:

Why don't you just finish the thought by surmising that those verses aren't really Scripture, but were simply added by male chauvinists who wanted to put women in their place?

You posted a lot of verbiage, but you could just as easily have made one statement and that would have sufficed: "I don't believe the Bible".  

Otherwise it would not be "I do have strong opinions" but instead "What saith the LORD?"

For those who want the Truth, read the Bible and BELIEVE IT, whether it suits your opinions or not. It is God's Word.

[Allinall]

Candice,

You said:

AllinAll,

My point here isn't as much about women in leadership roles, in any particular place, but Legalism vs. Grace.

So, you've missed my point.  At least, since you aren't arguing about my point, then I'll supposed you've missed my point.

Isn't as much about...I did get your point, however I think you may be missing the point you're hammering the most.    I agree with the legalism vs. grace concept, which I will address after I touch on a few other things.

For example:

Adam could have answered "Yes" to God's question.  But he didn't.  Instead he says, "The woman you put here with me-she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."  As IF he needed no repentance.

Yup!  He blameshifted instead of accepting responsibility.  However, who did Adam blame?

The man said, "The woman you put here with me-she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."

Adam's reasoning wasn't that it was the woman's fault!  He reasoned that it was God's fault for having given him the woman in the first place!      He blamed the woman for giving him the fruit, but he blamed God for giving him the woman to give him the fruit.  And legitimately, don't we all do this very thing?

How is it unbliblical that I, as a woman, would look at that example and find out that it's probably a GOOD idea not to go around getting man to do something, because if it's WRONG, when God asks him about it, he might blame the woman???  Are you not supposed to learn lessons from the Bible.

What's so unbiblical about that?

Because the example set wasn't for the woman to try and do anything short of simply obeying God in the role He has given her.  The example in that passage is for the man.  The fault in the passage was the man's.  Adam failed to lead, and faulted God primarily and Eve secondarily for his failure.  Yes.  You are supposed to learn the lessons God gives in His word.  And yes, there are applications from passages that God will touch each heart individually with (i.e. your understanding of that passage). Just make sure the lessons learned from the passage are the lessons taught in the passage.  

(I know that the Holy  Spirit talks to men's hearts, and the Holy Spirit will lead them in the right direction.  There's a big difference between a woman focusing on her own behavior because it's pleasing to God, and a woman focusing her own behavior because she's manipulating man.  I'm against manipulation tactics that are designed to manipulate people.  The negative way of getting men's behavior to change.)

I agree!  You do right to please God, not to get a man to do what you want!  And what does God say about your right behavior?  That it will have an affect on the wrong behavior of a man (husbands in context).  The key is that you aren't manipulating the man to do or to get what you want.  You are doing what God says and thereby setting an example that he won't miss, and can follow in doing what God wants.

I might add,   And you can use this against me if you want; Did you notice how much Eve's response resembles Adams?  Do you think she was following his example?

Absolutely!  Adam took the cherished weaker vessel and pawned off HIS responsibilities therein.  What happened?  The weaker vessel broke under the unnecessary pressure.  What spilled out...was what else Adam mixed in.

Now, an unbiblical principle you threw forth?  Allinal, a man, teaching an unbiblical principle--why some men shouldn't teach in church???  No where from the beginning of the Bible until after the eating of the Apple did God make Adam the leader and Eve the follower.  No where.  At least I've read it over and over and I don't see it.  

Lemme see...

Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

Ephesians 5:22-24

Ah.  But that was Old Testament Law that has no bound on today...

Do not let your adorning be external--the braiding of hair, the wearing of gold, or the putting on of clothing--but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious. For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.

1 Peter 3:3-6

Old Testament example of New Testament truth, put forth as an example, not to disregard, but to follow.  The verses prior speak of a wife submitting to her husband, and Sarah's honor she bestowed upon Abraham was, contextually, in accordance with the inner adornment she valued and allowed her to biblically respond to her husband.  Now.  Does that mean women should call their husbands lord?  ABSOLUTELY!!!  *Ducks the incoming punch from his wife*  OkokkokokokoK!!!!  That was Sarah's honoring factor.  But at the heart of it all was her submission.  Not obedience.  Submission  I think that's key too.  Women aren't called to have no opinion and to simply obey their husbands.  They're called to submit their opinions to the leadership of their husbands.

Take my wife for example again.  Everytime we come to a point of making a decision I consult her.  God has given her a great mind and discernment.  I'd be a fool not to ask her what she's thinking.  And each and everytime after she gives me what she's thinking about the decision, she says, "...but it's your decision."  Submission.  Sometimes I take her idea and go that way.  Sometimes I don't, and she follows willingly.  I don't brow beat.  A wise man once told me that I will only lead as far as my wife will follow...  But I digress.  More proof...

Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.  I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.  For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

1 Timothy 2:11-14

Adam was formed first.  By chance?  Did God have a plan and then decide He needed to improve it?    Don't answer that one in the flesh ladies.  No.  God had planned this order.  And the order that God spells out in the New Testament, He repeatedly uses the Old to exemplify.  No anti-biblical sentiment here.  Yes, in the assembly there is neither male nor female.  We are equal in God's eyes.  But there are roles God has given each gender.  It's much like the Trinity.  God the Father is equal to God the Son.  God the Holy Spirit is equal to God the Father.  Yet God the Father is the Head, the Son does the will of the Father and the Spirit the will of Them Both.

And after that, God didn't make Adam the leader and Eve the follower.  I might add, that the curse was that Adam would be her desire, what kind of curse is that?

And that man would rule over her.  That's part of the curse.  Are curses, usually God's ordained plan from the beginning.  

Wouldn't you say that having a man rule over you is a curse?  The Bible says its a curse.  But if a man is your desire, then there's no harm in pleasing him is there?  My pleasure and my desire are more in order.  Bossing people around is an entirely different topic then isn't it?

Well, I hope you answer because I can't wait to hear what you say.

Well, let's think about this curse thing for a minute...

The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife,sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church?

1 Timothy 3:1-5

The KJV translates the word "manage" as "rule."  The concept is continued in the following verses for the requirements for a deacon.  This tells me that the "rule" or management aspect is still around.  From the passages I have given already, the concept of the man having the leadership role of the family is, has been, and always will be God's will for the family.  

Allinall, don't you get tired of people arguing to be right or wrong?  I'm not arguing to be right or wrong.  I actually like to discuss these things.  Like in a discussion.  I don't want to argue.

I agree!  People argue all of the time over Calvinism, or music, or other things that have little to do with living day by day in faith in Christ.  But I'm not arguing to be seen as right.  I'm teaching so that you can get it right.  I know that sounds real bad, but it's truth.  There are many who have been burned in the past by their relationships and let that be their guide.  When they see posts doubting the structure of God's plan for the family, which is untrue, they are bolstered in their rebellion.  It is error.  You contradict error with truth.  Speaking the truth in love...we build up.

That's what I'm trying to do.

Grace to you too!  

[C C]

Allinall on a role?

He still hasn't pointed out where BEFORE the eating of the fruit God told Adam he was the boss of Eve.

After the Eating of the Fruit incident, THE CURSE was that Adam would be the boss of Eve.

So, then how many husbands are graciously accepting the task of being the instrument of God's curse?  

I thought folks were supposed to strive to be a blessing to others.  

It's the principle of the matter.  Or do principles not matter?

Ruling and leading are entirely different spirits.  Leader of the household vs. Ruler of the household?  Is there not a clear distinction?

I can FEEL the Baracudas.  Man-eating Jesus fish with sharp teeth.  Can't wait to impose the law on me.  Ah yes, the true Spirit of Christ.    By your fruits you shall know them.

If Christianity is about forgiveness and compassion on people that aren't perfect, as was Christ, then we should have compassion on each other.

My only wish is that folks wouldn't take personal what I write.  It's not personal.  There's nothing personal about it.

Sincereheart, I like to break up words, as in Sin can sear your heart--is that an insult? . . .no, but God delivered the folks from the Wicked city of Sodam and Gomorrah because sin was making their heart sad, and there are numerous references in the bible to the blessings to the people who's hearts are grieved by sin.

It's not like I said a person a heart that is quick to see sin instead of overlooking it, Sin Seer Heart.  

All the Sin Seer hearts raise your hands, for by which measure you judge so shall you be judged.  I'm not afraid of your harsh Judgements because there is one true judge, and he wont judge me as harshly as humans will.  

Thanks for the encouraging and uplifting environment Fellow Christians.  The fellowship is wonderful.  I feel so uplifted and encouraged here.  I'm so happy to be known as a Christian.  It's so nice to be loved and accepted by my peers.  It's so wonderul to discuss the Biblical principles without being attacked.  

Jesus is my Redeemer and if He were here, He'd ask that you not throw so many stones.  The Bible tells about Jesus not letting people throw stones.

Peace

[Allinall]

CONTINUED...

Now, for that legalism thingy I mentioned touching on.  I agree!  People want to live lives that can be measured by what they don't do.  "I don't go to movies."  "I don't go to restaurants that have bars in them."  "I don't listen to CCM."  "I don't have a television in my house."  "MY wife doesn't wear pants.  She only wears ankle length dresses."  Are any of these things inherantly wrong?  No.  But do they make the believer inherantly right?  No.  For some, that may be the principles by which they live and good for them.  But there are no verses that say "Thou shalt not go to movies" or any of these other examples.  People looking for what they aren't to do, and what they are to do make God a TaskMaster.  Does He have expectations of us?  Yup.  Does He discipline us if we fail to meet them?  Yup.  But why?

He does so to bring us to a better understanding of His grace.  Candice, just what is God's grace?

Some say, and rightly so, that grace is getting what we do not deserve.  But I think it is so[/b] much more than that.  The grace of God is the opportunity to know Him.

But do you know what the fulcrum upon which the understanding of Legalism and Grace rests is?  OBEDIENCE[/b].  Obedience is the door by which God, through the power of His Spirit and the incorporation of His Word changes us into the image of His Son.

How one views God's commands is dependent upon their maturity in Christ.  To me, "All things are lawful unto me."  Sin is still sin, but I'm not condemned by my sin.  I'm disciplined from it so that I obey, rather than disobey my God.  And in my obedience I'm transformed into a Christ-likeness I'll never achieve on my own.  Yet to another, "Thou shalt not go to movies."  How do we deal with these situations biblically?

As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself.  If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written,   "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
   and every tongue shall confess to God."
So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.
Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats.  It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.  The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

Romans 14

How does the stronger deal with the weaker?  By not despising them in their weakness.  By considering whether their actions build up, or tear down the weaker brother and amending such practices in context.

How does the weaker deal with the stronger?  By not judging others by our weaknesses.  "I don't do this, so if you do, you must be wrong!"

Legalism is a nasty thing, but a misunderstanding of the Grace of God can be even nastier.  

[C C]

Excellent Response, Allinall,

You officially have my permission to teach in church    Okay, VOTE.  I'll use the word VOTE.  You have my vote that you can teach in church.  The legalisits might get all excited about a woman giving a man to permission to teach in church and then they'd say maybe I had authority in church and then they'd say my middle name was Jezebel, I am sure.    Do you think women should vote in church?  Do you think women should vote at all?  Remember back in the day when women couldn't vote?  Does being able to vote in church mean you have some authority in church?  If you're voting whether a man can teach in church, does it mean you have some authority over whether or not that man can teach in church?

What does authority mean?

You didn't give me a scripture that was adequately convincing to me that from the Beginning, Adam was Eve's boss.  Adam's AND Eve's desire was toward the Lord.  I figured you were going to argue about Eve being Adam's helper, and that made him the boss of her.  But you didn't go there.  Had you, I was going to ask you IF when God sent us the Helper, the Holy Spirit, you would think that we would be the boss of the Holy Spirit because it is also a helper.  

Let me in case it's not evident, I'm not married, not dating.  There's no man now or in my immidiate future.  Christ is the head of the church, man is the head of his wife.  Man should take care of his wife the way he cares for his own body as Christ cares for the church.  Nobody HERE is arguing against that--to me it is a non-issue.  I don't think anyone is debating this thing.

I have another idea of grace.  You're either going to clarify my idea of grace or not.  It is nice to have someone to discuss these things with.  

God's role for the the day of rest is for people to rest on it.  And yet, the Lord of the day of rest healed on the day of rest.  Explain to my just why the Lord can break His own rules.

Thank you for your time and attention.  I enjoy hearing your well-thought out opinions.

Grace