Who Knocks and Who Hears and Opens?

[asaph]

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Note, verse 16,  not only do you not, believe Jesus, you don't believe Jesus's testimony about God the Father, whom He says;

......gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life

Petro my brother,

Life is in the Son. I do not posess life in and of myself but only as I abide in the Son by faith. The quality of the life of Jesus is eternal. Severed from Him, the eternal life flow is stopped. Then one withers and is gathered and burned.

You Gotta have faith,

asaph

[asaph]

Yes, I have heard your testimony, but you deny the words of the savior; your own words of denial, speak louder than the words of your faith, your practice, that which you confess, that one can lose his gift, denies the grace of God.

Petro Friend,
That's what you think. The next thing you will say is I never really believed. That's the biggest Calvinistic eraser there is for tons of scriptures. And now you are probably finding comfort just knowing I am not really saved. That's because you think I have to believe OSAS in order to be truely saved. Sad.

asaph  

[asaph]

Pure and simple you reject, His words, because you trust in your own ability to keep yourself, from sin, you do not trust in the power of God to keep you, and this is the condemnation.

Not true Brother,
My prayer is: "lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil."
I trust (faith  ) in God to keep me, not in the OSAS doctrine.

asaph

[asaph]

Because of verses 38 and 39, in this chapter, as I have stated, I do not believe, this is speaking of believer's spiritual  death,  it is true, believers are able to sin, but because of what Jesus has accomplished it is impossible, that this verse can be speaking of a spiritual death, this is why I said this is not speaking of believers. I simply disagree with your interpretation.

Petro,
Again, Life is in the Son, not in us. We are partakers of the divine nature. We gain the Life Flow as we abide in Jesus by faith. Not all sin is unto death but there is a sin unto death. Every sin should be confessed and forsaken.

Peace,

asaph

[asaph]

But, if these were speaking of believers, it could only be speaking of a physical death, and here is why..

Both of the verses you quote, are and exhortation given to Christians, that they might examine themselves to see if they are walking in the faith.

All people die physically. Some Christians die martyrs. The threat here is not physical but spiritual death.

Rom 8:12  Therefore, brothers, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
Rom 8:13  For if you live according to the flesh you shall die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live.

Lots of Love,

asaph

[asaph]

Take note of verse 5,  This brother who was living in fornication was "To be delivered such  unto Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that the spirit might be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The Apostle, not once mentions, a loss of the gift of "Eternal Life", it is plain from the language, that this individual was saved, even while living in sin, and it appears it had been for a season, it was not something which had occured recently, but it matters little, the fact is, this man was involved in open sin, and everyone knew it.

Petro,
Pauls concern was that the brother may be lost. His hope was that he might be saved. It does not say that he definately would be saved but might be saved. Even if he had not lost his salvation this does not prove that it is not possible. This may have been an extreme measure to prevent the loss.

asaph

[asaph]

There are  three points which can be made herein;

1. This individual lived in open rebellion to God, he willingly commited "Fornication" in plain sight, of all.
2. If this man, was not a believer, there would have been no, need to deliver him, to Satan the prince of the power of the air, since he already belonged to Satan. (Eph 2:1-2)
3. He could not have been brought back to repentance again;  since Heb 6, tells us;

Heb 6
4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Which brings us full circle to the question, I asked you;

Did Jesus pay for all of your sins or, only some of your sins??

If this mans sin, caused is spiritual death, he could never be brought back to repentance, because, there is no other blood (other than Jesus's blood) which can take away sin.

Petro,
The Hebrews passage is a special case. The Jews left the type for the reality and were tempted to return to the type. But there remains no more sacrifice for sin in the type. In fact they would actually be crucifying the Son of God afresh. This is an unpardonable sin, a sin unto spiritual death. They were facing a very real peril of losing their salvation.

If this fornicator had not been given over to Satan would his spirit be saved in the day of Christ? Why such tough measures if there were no danger? I wonder if the man repented and did not actually have to undergo physical punishment. There is good reason to believe that he did repent and was restored.

1Co 5:5 -
To deliver - This is the sentence which is to be executed. You are to deliver him to Satan, etc.
Unto Satan - Beza, and the Latin fathers, suppose that this is only an expression of excommunication. They say, that in the Scriptures there are but two kingdoms recognized - the kingdom of God, or the church, and the kingdom of the world, which is regarded as under the control of Satan; and that to exclude a man from one is to subject him to the dominion of the other. There is some foundation for this opinion; and there can be no doubt that excommunication is here intended, and that, by excommunication, the offender was in some sense placed under the control of Satan. It is further evident that it is here supposed that by being thus placed under him the offender would be subject to corporal inflictions by the agency of Satan, which are here called the “destruction of the flesh.” Satan is elsewhere referred to as the author of bodily diseases. Thus, in the case of Job, Job_2:7. A similar instance is mentioned in 1Ti_1:20, where Paul says he had delivered Hymeneus and Alexander to “Satan, that they might learn not to blaspheme.” It may be observed here that though this was to be done by the concurrence of the church, as having a right to administer discipline, yet it was directed by apostolic authority; and there is no evidence that this was the usual form of excommunication, nor ought it now to be used. There was evidently miraculous power evinced in this case, and that power has long since ceased in the church.
For the destruction of the flesh - We may observe here:
(1) That this does not mean that the man was to die under the infliction of the censure, for the object was to recover him; and it is evident that, whatever he suffered as the consequence of this, he survived it, and Paul again instructed the Corinthians to admit him to their fellowship, 2Co_2:7.
(2) it was designed to punish him for licentiousness of life - often called in the Scriptures one of the sins, or works of the flesh Gal_5:19, and the design was that the punishment should follow “in the line of the offence,” or be a just retribution - as punishment often does. Many have supposed that by the “destruction of the flesh” Paul meant only the destruction of his fleshly appetites or carnal affections; and that he supposed that this would be effected by the act of excommunication. But it is very evident from the Scriptures that the apostles were imbued with the power of inflicting diseases or bodily calamities for crimes. See Act_13:11; 1Co_11:30. What this bodily malady was we have no means of knowing. It is evident that it was not of very long duration, since when the apostle exhorts them 2Co_2:7 again to receive him, there is no mention made of his suffering then under it - This was an extraordinary and miraculous power. It was designed for the government of the church in its infancy, when everything was suited to show the direct agency of God; and it ceased, doubtless, with the apostles. The church now has no such power. It cannot now work miracles; and all its discipline now is to be moral discipline, designed not to inflict bodily pain and penalties, but to work a moral reformation in the offender.
That the spirit may be saved - That his soul might be saved; that he might be corrected, humbled, and reformed by these sufferings, and recalled to the paths of piety and virtue. This expresses the true design of the discipline of the church, and it ought never to be inflicted but with a direct intention to benefit the offender, and to save the soul. Even when he is cut off and disowned, the design should not be vengeance, or punishment merely, but it should be to recover him and save him from ruin.
In the day of the Lord Jesus - The Day of Judgment when the Lord Jesus shall come, and shall collect his people to himself.

Barnes

God Bless,

asaph

[Petro]

Asaph,

The more you try to explain, what you perceive scripture to teach, the more it becomes evident, you do not understand it, and reject the teaching of it.

I got to hand it to you, you do use the right words, unfortunately they don't jive, with your explanations, your intrepetations of  the "special cases" give you away. This reminds me of the teaching of the Catholic church, Christains cannot agree with their teaching, unless one first forces them to define words.

In a response to A4C, on July 12, 2002, in the Salvation is for Eternity thread, you said;

reply to A4C, at Salvation is for Eternity, July 12, 2003

Faith is the only means by which we can live a holy life. The just shall live by faith. As we recieve Christ by faith so we walk in Him by faith.

Faith is the means by which we walk in the Spirit.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Jesus is the final authority on the matter.

If this is true, why do you contradict Jesus's own words, with your teaching, about "ETERNAL LIFE"

continued....
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

The two little words "in me" are key to this passage. You can't be in Christ and not be saved. Anyone in Christ is a new creature. It is possible to not abide or remain in Christ who is our life. In that case we lose the life flow and are cut away from the vine and cast forth and wither and are burned.

You believe somehow these branches, that have been burned, can be grafted back into the vine, this is evident by your  interpretation of Rom 11,  concerning Paul you write;

To come back to God if one sins as Paul did you simply repent and believe the Gospel.

What??, You believe the Apostle Paul, was saved, forsook God, and then was reborn again of the Spirit of God??    

Where, do you get this idea??
 
And then you call,  Heb 6, a special case,  failing recognize this is speaking of unbelievers,

Isn't  Romans 11, specifically speaking of those who are in unbelief??,

They are grafted in, only after coming to Faith, it says nothing of having believed, they fell from Faith, (Grace) or that they were "branches cut off and burned" and come to belief a second time, in the Gospel.

How can branches which are burned be grafted to anything??  Can you explain??

I really thought you had a better command of the scriptures.

Your problem is;

You can't accept Faith is gift of God  to sinners underserving of His grace. So, it naturally follows that such a superficial understanding of how you obtained yours, leads to this teaching.

Unfortunately, This is not taught at all, in the scriputres.
You entered this thread at reply #2,  frusterated that there is nothing you could do to come to salvation, you even enumerated the things which you believe brought you to faith in Christ Jesus;  it has been showen to you, how that, before you ever even began to trust in the Gospel of the Kingdom, God thru His spirit began to work in you to breakdown your resistance to the very word , which in the end would accomplish this great work of God in you.

It began when God  chose you, by electing you from before the foundations of the world, and then in due time you received the hearing necessary to hear the word of God, His word was preached to you at the appponted time, in which you placed some degree trust, and by the diligent work of the Spirit, who tirelessly works in all those whom God has appointed to salvation  by faith in Jesus, He (the Spirit) by the Grace of God, gave you the faith which is of God to believe in Him, whom you would never have believed in, let alone His testimony, and by it came to Faith in Jesus, who by the Spirit of God gave you Eternal Life, having sealed you until the time appointed of His coming to claim the purchased possession, (which is a reality if indeed, these things I have written are true, in your life)( and I pray it is true, but you explanations raise more questions than answer them.) in whom by your own testimony do believe.

You may believe, that perhaps, there was a spark of life in your dead spiritual condition (but it won't change the fact there wasn't, any life in you, otherwise, it would not be refferred to as the New Birth),

which enabled you to somehow miraculous hear, and believe the Word of God, when it was preached to you but, unfortunately, this is not taught in the scriptures, on the contrary, the Word of God has Given you everything necessary to become a child of God, from the very begining, even while you were dead in sin and tresspass, Christ died for you, the Word asks us..

Why do the heathen rage, the scriptures ask?  

Because they know that there is nothing they  can do to make themselves right with God.  The Old Nature of christians sometimes shows itself in this way, in that they  even verbalize there disagreement with the scriptures, and meven want to take credit for grace of God,  as if they caused Him to produce it.

And so, it was on this note that you, undertook, to prove, your faith came to you in someother way other than Gods way.

Yes, sure you say, it isn't so, and that you only believe the pure word as taught by the scriptures, but so do all those others, who make these claims, they also, say, that their faith is in Jesus, and nothing else, yet when asked about this theory that somehow or other a child of God, can lose the eternal life Jesus says is given to his own by Him, because this is the will of God, for those whom God has given Him, whom He holds in His hand.

The object of the unbelief you claim a person turns to, in abandoning  faith in God, is the keeping of the law, and I know that what you mean by this is the Commandments, because it is when one breaks a Commandment that a person sins.

And at Reply 8, herein you state;

Faith merits nothing. Faith is our response to Gods Grace.

Sin, alineates a person from God, the moment one sins, not ultimately, one sin is sufficient to kill the soul, to abandon
ones faith in Him, is to disobey the first commandment, and disobedience was the sin which brought on death, thru Adam, (it is based in Unbelief) upon the whole human race

The Soul that sinneth it shall die. (Num 15:28-31) Even the sin of ignorance, is included, because the ignorant who sin, despise the word of God, and has broken His commandment.

You teach, one can sin, and continue, in fellowship with God, until "ultimately", sometime down the road, the person loses his salvation.  This is clear from you statement;

"I believe one who has faith in the work and oerson of Jesus Christ is secure. Abandon your trust in Him you could ultimately lose your salvation."

Sorry, asaph, but I am afraid, you really don't believe Jesus, is the final authority on all matters concerning faith, (this is jusdt your lip service)


You believe you are..the final authority, you prove it by what you teach, blending your words with words which the unlearned are unable to discern as contradicting the Gospel.


God Bless,

Petro

[Petro]

There are three points which can be made herein;

1. This individual lived in open rebellion to God, he willingly commited "Fornication" in plain sight, of all.
2. If this man, was not a believer, there would have been no, need to deliver him, to Satan the prince of the power of the air, since he already belonged to Satan. (Eph 2:1-2)
3. He could not have been brought back to repentance again; since Heb 6, tells us;

Heb 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Which brings us full circle to the question, I asked you;

Did Jesus pay for all of your sins or, only some of your sins??

If this mans sin, caused is spiritual death, he could never be brought back to repentance, because, there is no other blood (other than Jesus's blood) which can take away sin.

Petro,
The Hebrews passage is a special case.

Ohhh!!, How so, how is it more special than Rom 11, both passages are describing the consequences of  unbelief, and I assume,  your presupposition that Paul was saved, lost and saved again, has something to do with Rom 11.  Thus, your previous post, where according to you Paul, fell away (lost his salvation), and then was restored. You've let you are letting your imagination get the best of you.

The Jews left the type for the reality and were tempted to return to the type. But there remains no more sacrifice for sin in the type. In fact they would actually be crucifying the Son of God afresh. This is an unpardonable sin, a sin unto spiritual death. They were facing a very real peril of losing their salvation.

The object of the verses and why they were not able to be brought to repentance, is because, there is no more sacrifice for the sin of unbelief, people that who walk away, from the teaching testimony of the Holy Spirit, which is bringing men to Christ, when they walk away from it, that is it, for them.  Although written to Jews the Epistle, is written that the people of God mightknow the truth,  be edified, and understand these things.  It is not so special, that it cannot be understood, as taught by the Spirit.

Petro  said,
If this fornicator had not been given over to Satan would his spirit be saved in the day of Christ? Why such tough measures if there were no danger? I wonder if the man repented and did not actually have to undergo physical punishment. There is good reason to believe that he did repent and was restored.

He sinned openly, he must repent openly, if he belongs to Christ, God is not the author of sin, to openly flaunt sin, in Gods assembly, is to invite judgement from God, the church, wqas to put these sort of sinners out from among them, and have nothing to with them, to use 2 Cor 2:7 as definitively speaking fo the is indivudual is strechting a might wouldn't you say, especially since there is a letter of Pauls, missing that he wrote unto this church.

 asaph posted;
1Co 5:5 -
To deliver - This is the sentence which is to be executed. You are to deliver him to Satan, etc.
Unto Satan - Beza, and the Latin fathers, suppose that this is only an expression of excommunication. They say, that in the Scriptures there are but two kingdoms recognized - the kingdom of God, or the church, and the kingdom of the world, which is regarded as under the control of Satan; and that to exclude a man from one is to subject him to the dominion of the other. There is some foundation for this opinion; and there can be no doubt that excommunication is here intended, and that, by excommunication, the offender was in some sense placed under the control of Satan. It is further evident that it is here supposed that by being thus placed under him the offender would be subject to corporal inflictions by the agency of Satan, which are here called the "destruction of the flesh." Satan is elsewhere referred to as the author of bodily diseases. Thus, in the case of Job, Job_2:7. A similar instance is mentioned in 1Ti_1:20, where Paul says he had delivered Hymeneus and Alexander to "Satan, that they might learn not to blaspheme." It may be observed here that though this was to be done by the concurrence of the church, as having a right to administer discipline, yet it was directed by apostolic authority; and there is no evidence that this was the usual form of excommunication, nor ought it now to be used. There was evidently miraculous power evinced in this case, and that power has long since ceased in the church.
For the destruction of the flesh - We may observe here:
(1) That this does not mean that the man was to die under the infliction of the censure, for the object was to recover him; and it is evident that, whatever he suffered as the consequence of this, he survived it, and Paul again instructed the Corinthians to admit him to their fellowship, 2Co_2:7.
(2) it was designed to punish him for licentiousness of life - often called in the Scriptures one of the sins, or works of the flesh Gal_5:19, and the design was that the punishment should follow "in the line of the offence," or be a just retribution - as punishment often does. Many have supposed that by the "destruction of the flesh" Paul meant only the destruction of his fleshly appetites or carnal affections; and that he supposed that this would be effected by the act of excommunication. But it is very evident from the Scriptures that the apostles were imbued with the power of inflicting diseases or bodily calamities for crimes. See Act_13:11; 1Co_11:30. What this bodily malady was we have no means of knowing. It is evident that it was not of very long duration, since when the apostle exhorts them 2Co_2:7 again to receive him, there is no mention made of his suffering then under it - This was an extraordinary and miraculous power. It was designed for the government of the church in its infancy, when everything was suited to show the direct agency of God; and it ceased, doubtless, with the apostles. The church now has no such power. It cannot now work miracles; and all its discipline now is to be moral discipline, designed not to inflict bodily pain and penalties, but to work a moral reformation in the offender.
That the spirit may be saved - That his soul might be saved; that he might be corrected, humbled, and reformed by these sufferings, and recalled to the paths of piety and virtue. This expresses the true design of the discipline of the church, and it ought never to be inflicted but with a direct intention to benefit the offender, and to save the soul. Even when he is cut off and disowned, the design should not be vengeance, or punishment merely, but it should be to recover him and save him from ruin.
In the day of the Lord Jesus - The Day of Judgment when the Lord Jesus shall come, and shall collect his people to himself.

Barnes

God Bless,

asaph

Cont'd...........

[Petro]

Asaph,  you amaze, me.....

And you don't even see that this commentary, you post agrees with Eternal Security, Barnes, whoever he is; in quoting Beza- recognizes the offender, to be a believer, a member of the Kingdom of God, which was to be delivered to the Kingdom of Satan for;

"For the destruction of the flesh - We may observe here:
(1) That this does not mean that the man was to die under the infliction of the censure, for the object was to recover him; and it is evident that, whatever he suffered as the consequence of this, he survived it, and Paul again instructed the Corinthians to admit him to their fellowship, 2Co_2:7.
(2) it was designed to punish him for licentiousness of life - often called in the Scriptures one of the sins, or works of the flesh Gal_5:19, and the design was that the punishment should follow "in the line of the offence," or be a just retribution - as punishment often does."

Yet, you claim, that anyone lving in sin, and abandoning his faith in God, as in this case Jesus, it is evident, this person, had a total diregard for the commandment of God, and you could hardly argue, he  doesn't fall into your definition of one who had lost his salvation, as you understand it,  since he did not trust in God by faith at all, evidenced by his life style, and open rebellion against the word of God.

Yet your man Barnes, says;

"That his soul might be saved; that he might be corrected, humbled, and reformed by these sufferings, and recalled to the paths of piety and virtue."

He was a believer before, he was given to be afflicted, the only thing that happens herein is he either repents, or dies in sin.

Thank God, He does not become unfaithful, because we are unfaithful, our position in Christ, is secure because it is based on His finished work on calvary, and His reserrection by the Spirit.

 We have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us   2  Cor 4:7.

I don't have problem with scripture when you post it, but I do, with your interpretation  of it, and it evident here, you need to do some homework on it..

As I said before, You entered this thread frusterated, at reply #2,  upset that there is nothing you did, nor could ever do, to gain salvation mfrom God, and it has been shown to you, how that God provided you with everyhting you need to come to Jesus by faith, even to believe is a gift from God, and have posted upwards of 20 posts, trying to shore up your theology, and then you post this little  which truns out to a case for the Eternal Security of every believer; that inspite of what is said from here  on, one thing is certain, the "excellency of the power may be of God, who knoweth them that are His, and will raise them up, in the last day, not because they did anything to deserve it, but because it pleases God to save som, that He might be glorified.

Here is the verse again;

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


And finally, read it carefully, inspite of many offences, His people will be saved, in the end..it doesn't matter what you teach, or even believe for that matter with regard to this subject;

He will raise every person He has given to the Son, hope to see you there..

Rom 5
16  And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.


God Bless,

Petro

[Petro]

Yes, I have heard your testimony, but you deny the words of the savior; your own words of denial, speak louder than the words of your faith, your practice, that which you confess, that one can lose his gift, denies the grace of God.

Petro Friend,
That's what you think. The next thing you will say is I never really believed. That's the biggest Calvinistic eraser there is for tons of scriptures. And now you are probably finding comfort just knowing I am not really saved. That's because you think I have to believe OSAS in order to be truely saved. Sad.

asaph  

asaph,

You jest.............You don't have to believe OSAS, but if you believed Jesus, you would OSAS, because Jesus says;

Jhn 10
28  ............... I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

Do you believe this??

Eternal means "FOREVER", and it is "FOREVER", because it is based on Jesus finished works, not your works.

1 Jhn 4
10  Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

PROPITIATION; (pro PISH ee ay shun).  Covering, atonement.  In general a, sacrifice that appeases God. The Propitiation in view here at this verse is; Christ the Saviors sacrificial death on the cross that makes divine forgiveness possible.

It is God's mercy and grace in action to put all into a right relationship with Him.

You may think, we share these truths with you because we hate you, but you are wrong.

The fact you, deny Jesus's own words, regardless of how you articulate your faith, is evidence you ultimately believe you are able to propitaite yourself into divine grace.

It is because you have a distorted sense of the what the scriptures teach..

Blessings,

Petro

[Petro]

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Note, verse 16,  not only do you not, believe Jesus, you don't believe Jesus's testimony about God the Father, whom He says;

......gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life

Petro my brother,

Life is in the Son. I do not posess life in and of myself but only as I abide in the Son by faith. The quality of the life of Jesus is eternal. Severed from Him, the eternal life flow is stopped. Then one withers and is gathered and burned.

You Gotta have faith,

asaph

you say;

Life is in the Son.

This is true, because;

 the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;  (Jhn 5:26)

And we are saved by His Life, and we possess that life presently, in these earthen vessels.  

You say;  only if we remain in Christ, can we continue in this "life".  But the fact is you don't believe this at all.

And Jesus says;

Jhn 6
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus, when praying to the Father, prayed;

Jhn 17
1. Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2  As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
(Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Rom 8:9))
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

And, then the Apostles writes;

1 Jhn 5
12  He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13  These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

But you believe according to the commentary of "Barnes" that a Chritian "Fornicator", living in open rebellion against the will of God, can be ex communicated from the church, while remaining a Christian, to be buffeted by Satan for a season, that his soul might not perish!  

What you fail to see, is he never lost his gift of "Eternal Life" during this experience, according to your understanding of the passage of scripture.

You actually believe in OSAS, the problem you have trouble, accepting it, and confessing it. Because you want to throw your two mites into the gift of God.

Which brings me to the point that needs to be made, you need to spend time reconciling your "birdsnest" (the tangled teaching of scripture) you carry around with you, unable to undertsnad it, so that you may teach to others who are also weak in the faith an confused.

We Christians, should all be of the same faith of Abraham, who believe Jesus words to the saving of the soul..

Sharing truth with you to strengthen your faith, in Jesus..

And may God, give you the grace to deal with this..

Love
Petro

[pnotc]

I was tempted to respond to some of the earlier posts in this thread, but didn’t think it was worth getting into.  But Petro, yet again you have turned it nasty.  You have again done nothing more than attack a fellow Christian, calling into question their knowledge, their faith and their salvation.  This is something of a pattern for you, isn’t it?

“The more you try to explain, what you perceive scripture to teach, the more it becomes evident, you do not understand it, and reject the teaching of it.”

He rejects your Calvinist doctrines, not what Scripture teaches, since they are two very different things.  

”This reminds me of the teaching of the Catholic church, Christains cannot agree with their teaching, unless one first forces them to define words.”

I’m sure there are more than a few here who would argue the same thing about Calvinism.  Tell me, what does “all” mean and “whosoever”?  

”You believe somehow these branches, that have been burned, can be grafted back into the vine,”

First off, they haven’t been burned yet.  Your sequencing these verses incorrectly. Jesus is clearly talking about the final judgment which takes place at the end of time.  These “branches” are slated for burning – they will be burned if they remain outside of Christ.  They are not burnt yet.  As such, it may very well be possible for them to be grafted into Christ.  

”What??, You believe the Apostle Paul, was saved, forsook God, and then was reborn again of the Spirit of God?? “

I think we can take Paul at his word where he claims he was a devout and righteous Jew, who followed the law of God with all his heart.  Just as Abraham, Moses, Joshua, etc, etc did.  Were they unsaved as well?

”And then you call,  Heb 6, a special case,  failing recognize this is speaking of unbelievers,”

Unbelievers?!  What translation are you reading?  How can an unbeliever been “once enlightened,” “tasted the heavenly gift” and been a “partaker of the Holy Spirit” (vs 4)?  How is it that an unbeliever “tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come” (vs 5)?  They can’t!  These are all marks of a believer – a true believer.  They tasted heaven and the good word of God, they partook of the Spirit and its gifts – the powers of the age to come.  Look at verse 6 – “have fallen away” clearly indicates they were once unfallen, they were once saved.  Later, it says it is impossible to RENEW them to repentance.  RENEW, as in, they were once repentant and aren’t anymore.  And how is it that an unbeliever crucifies Jesus Christ twice?  You’re fooling yourself if you think this refers to unbelievers and you clearly show your own deficit of understanding of the Word.  
 
”I really thought you had a better command of the scriptures.”
Look who’s talking.  

”Your problem is;
--You can't accept Faith is gift of God  to sinners underserving of His grace. So, it naturally follows that such a superficial understanding of how you obtained yours, leads to this teaching.”

What’s that I smell?  Ahh, the sweet scent of fundamentalist judgment.  He can’t accept your Calvinist baloney because its wrong, wrong, wrong.  He doesn’t have a superficial understanding of faith – he has the understanding that has existed in the church since the times of Christ.  Why else don’t you see any of your garbage in any ancient texts?  Why doesn’t Calvinism stand up to historical scrutiny?  You dodged my question on the other thread, lets see if you can answer it here.  

”It began when God  chose you, by electing you from before the foundations of the world, and then in due time you received the hearing necessary to hear the word of God, His word was preached to you at the appponted time, in which you placed some degree trust,”

Bzzzzt, contradiction alert.  How can he have placed any degree of trust in it if he was totally depraved?  You were very explicit in how we are saved, and yet you state here that he put trust in it.  How is that possible if we are completely incapable of responding in any way unless the Spirit irresistibly forces us to do so?

”You may believe, that perhaps, there was a spark of life in your dead spiritual condition (but it won't change the fact there wasn't, any life in you, otherwise, it would not be referred to as the New Birth),”

Is a baby dead before it is born?  Clearly not.  You miss the meaning of the metaphor.
 
”Because they know that there is nothing they  can do to make themselves right with God.”

Bzzzt, contradiction alert.  If the spiritually dead understand nothing of God and do not, in fact, wish to please him in any way, they would not be frustrated by their inability to do so.  And if they recognized that they are not right with God, then they cannot be totally depraved, can they?  Incapable of effecting their own salvation, but not in utter bondage to sin, since they clearly recognize God as good and themselves as missing the mark.  

“The Old Nature of christians sometimes shows itself in this way, in that they  even verbalize there disagreement with the scriptures, and meven want to take credit for grace of God,  as if they caused Him to produce it.”
A fundamental misreading of their theology.  No non-Calvinist theologian has ever taught or thought they forced God to produce grace.  You caricature their thinking, but only reveal your own ignorance on the matter.

”Sorry, asaph, but I am afraid, you really don't believe Jesus, is the final authority on all matters concerning faith, (this is jusdt your lip service)”

Sorry, Petro, but I’m afraid you really don’t believe Jesus or his word is the final authority on all matters concerning faith, this is just your lip service.  You clearly believe that Calvinist doctrine overrides scripture.  It is your final authority, not the Lord, not the Word.

[Petro]

pnotc,

You really should be studying for your orthodoxy exam, instead of spending time arguing, points, which you don't believe in anyhow, whats the point??

The Apostle Paul, was unsaved, while he did the things he did, in ignorance.

You can read his own testimony in the book of Acts.


Petro

[pnotc]

Petro-

I've noticed an "advancing towards the rear" in your postsings lately.  When I've pointed out the failings in your arguments and the holes in your logic, or your misreading of scripture (Hebrews 6 being only the latest debacle), you simply post an insult and do not answer my posts.  And I'm not sure what you think I do or don't believe, but I assure you, it is definitely no concern of yours.  So how about you respond - just to the portion on Hebrews 6?  Show me how the refers to non-believers.