Who Knocks and Who Hears and Opens?

[asaph]

What you and those who believe your version of God's great work, abhorr (because you don't want God to get all of the Glory, you seek a little bit your own glory), I find confort in, that God did all that was necessary for my salvation, even giving me, the faith, to believe in Jesus, whom I never cared about and would have never come to left to my own devices.

Praise God..

Petro,
When God gave you faith what did you do with it? What was the circumstance of your receiving God's gift?
To one it was: go to the Pool of Siloam and wash. (He came seeing)To another it was: stretch forth your hand. (His hand was made whole) To another it was: go your way and show yourself to the priest. (He was cleansed of his leprosy; where are the other nine?) To another it was: sell all you have and give to the poor.
This last one went away sorrowful. Was he not given the same faith or was Jesus just toying with him like a cat pawing at a mouse? Jesus looked at him and loved him yet he still went away sorrowing. I believe that he was given a measure of faith, even as we all are given, but he buried the one talent and lost it all.
You say I want some of the credit yet God is my witness that this is  not true. You are assuming things that are way out of your ability to know.
This is why I do not join either the Calvinist or Arminian sects. They make themselves judges over things that they do not have a clue about. I love my brethren from both camps but their religous bents stink to high heaven.
I also find comfort in God's Grace; Jesus is God's Grace. You ever stop to think you could be wrong? You want everything in nice little rows wrapped up in ribbons and bows. If it does not fit your thinking then you try to find a way to force it to fit. Love covers over a multitude of sins.

asaph  

[Ambassador4Christ]

What you and those who believe your version of God's great work, abhorr (because you don't want God to get all of the Glory, you seek a little bit your own glory), I find confort in, that God did all that was necessary for my salvation, even giving me, the faith, to believe in Jesus, whom I never cared about and would have never come to left to my own devices

Amen asaph Amen

[asaph]

A4C,
You mean amen petro amen. Thems petros words.

Love ya Bro,

asaph

PS Love petro too.

[Petro]

posted by  asaph,  as reply #14
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Petro,
How can you say verse 13a refers to those who have never been saved when verse 12 says "brethren", and the "ye" of verse 13 points to "brethren" of verse 12? And how can something already dead die? Don't say it is physical death, there is no threat there; we are going to die physically regardless of the way we walk.

Blessings,

asaph

asaph,

If what Rom 8:12 and 13, were a possibility; would the Apostle have written, verse 38-39??

Listen carefully,

Rom 8
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39  Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I don't know what other thing, can separate us from the love of God, once we have come into fellowship with Him, Can you think of something??

Can you separate yourself from the love of God??  Apparently you, believe you can...

A lady a while back, said to me;  Nothing may be able to separate me from the love of God but, I could jump out of His hand if I wanted to..Imagine that...My question to her would be;

WOULD, Anyone that understands what they have saved from, ever want to jump out of his hand??

This in itself shows, this person trusts in their own doings, rather in what God has done..

This is why I asked you, before,  and I ask you again;

When Jesus died and shed his blood for the remission of your sins, did He die for ALL of you SINS??

or,

Just some of your sins??

Apparently, you do believe, some sin exists, which a believer (such as yourself) can commit in a moment of weakness or willingly, which,  can indeed cause one to lose his free gift of  Eternal Life.  

If this is true, then inspite of what you say,  whom or what you believe, you simply do not believe, God; never mind believe Jesus.

Listen to Jesus's words;

Jhn 12
44  ................... He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45   And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47   And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

(Please note, from the verse above, everyone will be judged in the last day by the word, not the ten commandments, as some argue.)

49   For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.


Jhn 19
25  ................... I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.  
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.  
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.  
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.  
30 I and my Father are one.

Jhn 14
23  .......................... If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24   He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Do you believe you have eternal life, asaph??

Can you lose it??

You have already testified to the affirmative to this last question, your testimony, puts you at odds, with the Savior's own words;  He says;

Jhn 3
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.  
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?  
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.  
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15   That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.  
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Note, verse 16,   not only do you not, believe Jesus, you don't believe Jesus's testimony about God the Father, whom He says;

......gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life

Yes, I have heard your testimony, but you deny the words of the savior; your own words of denial, speak louder than the words of your faith, your practice, that which you confess, that one can lose his gift, denies the grace of God.

According to Jesus, His words  we read above, are the words of the Father. God the Father confirms this himself;  Your attention is invited to Deut 18:18-19, where He says;

18  I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Pure and simple you reject, His words, because you trust in your own ability to keep yourself, from sin, you do not trust in the power of God to keep you, and this is the condemnation.

Whether you are saved or not, is not mine to judge, however, anyone can mouth certain words, but the proof is in the pudding as they say;

On what do you hang your hope??

On Jesus, who paid the debt you owe for your sins, or your ability to keep yourself from sinning that one sin which can cause you to lose it all??

Now, to answer your question;

Because of verses 38 and 39, in this chapter, as I have stated, I do not believe, this is speaking of believer's spiritual  death,  it is true, believers are able to sin, but because of what Jesus has accomplished it is impossible, that this verse can be speaking of a spiritual death, this is why I said this is not speaking of believers. I simply disagree with your interpretation.

But, if these were speaking of believers, it could only be speaking of a physical death, and here is why..

Both of the verses you quote, are and exhortation given to Christians, that they might examine themselves to see if they are walking in the faith.

Rom 8
12  Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13  For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

It is evident to me you do not understand what the scriptures are teaching here at all..from your explanation.

And as the Spirit allows, I will show this to you, it is found in the mystery of the Gospel, which those who believe, they can lose their gift of eternal life are unable to see, because of unbelief.

The first question, one should ask himself is;  What is it; "to live after the flesh"??

Continued.................sorry  it is so long..

[Petro]

This question, is answered by the same Paul who wrote the book of Galatians for us in Chapter 5:

16  This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17  For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18  But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19  Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20  Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
22  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
21  Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Please take note of verse 19, fornication.

The Apostle Paul, gives us a clear example of a believer who was caught living/walking in the flesh , here is the folloing account;

1 Cor 5
1  It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2  And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3  For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4  In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5  To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6  Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7  Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8  Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9  I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10  Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11  But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12  For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13  But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Take note of verse 5,   This brother who was living in fornication was "To be delivered such  unto Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that the spirit might be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The Apostle, not once mentions, a loss of the gift of "Eternal Life", it is plain from the language, that this individual was saved, even while living in sin, and it appears it had been for a season, it was not something which had occured recently, but it matters little, the fact is, this man was involved in open sin, and everyone knew it.

Know, knowing the way you all, think, allow me to head you off at the pass, and  to remind you, that if this man had lost his salvation; for truly it is undeniable that this man, was a professing Christian who believed according to this passage, and had not only tasted, but had been made a full partaker of the Holy Spirit, and had been forgiven of all his sins, because of the language of this certainty, which Paul uses at verse 5, "To deliver such an one unto Satan".

There are  three points which can be made herein;

1. This individual lived in open rebellion to God, he willingly commited "Fornication" in plain sight, of all.
2. If this man, was not a believer, there would have been no, need to deliver him, to Satan the prince of the power of the air, since he already belonged to Satan. (Eph 2:1-2)
3. He could not have been brought back to repentance again;  since Heb 6, tells us;

Heb 6
4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Which brings us full circle to the question, I asked you;

Did Jesus pay for all of your sins or, only some of your sins??

If this mans sin, caused is spiritual death, he could never be brought back to repentance, because, there is no other blood (other than Jesus's blood) which can take away sin.

And therefore Paul the Apostle, when he wrote these inspired words, at:

verse 5,  ".........that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. was writing truth.

You do not believe what you preach, you say, that a Christian can lose his salvation, when he sins, but afterwards you teach, he can be brought back to repentance, contrary to scripture.

My question to this teaching is;

By whose blood, is the sin, which causes a Christians to fall from grace, purged, allowing grace once again to bring him, into the Sonship of God??

Jesus, only died once and for all, and He shed all of His Blood once and for all.

Is this not true??

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1 Jhn 5:13)

God Bless,

Petro

[Brother Love]

Amen & Amen

Thanks Petro

Brother Love

[Petro]

What you and those who believe your version of God's great work, abhorr (because you don't want God to get all of the Glory, you seek a little bit your own glory), I find confort in, that God did all that was necessary for my salvation, even giving me, the faith, to believe in Jesus, whom I never cared about and would have never come to left to my own devices.

Praise God..

Petro,
When God gave you faith what did you do with it? What was the circumstance of your receiving God's gift?
To one it was: go to the Pool of Siloam and wash. (He came seeing)To another it was: stretch forth your hand. (His hand was made whole) To another it was: go your way and show yourself to the priest. (He was cleansed of his leprosy; where are the other nine?) To another it was: sell all you have and give to the poor.
This last one went away sorrowful. Was he not given the same faith or was Jesus just toying with him like a cat pawing at a mouse? Jesus looked at him and loved him yet he still went away sorrowing. I believe that he was given a measure of faith, even as we all are given, but he buried the one talent and lost it all.
You say I want some of the credit yet God is my witness that this is  not true. You are assuming things that are way out of your ability to know.
This is why I do not join either the Calvinist or Arminian sects. They make themselves judges over things that they do not have a clue about. I love my brethren from both camps but their religous bents stink to high heaven.
I also find comfort in God's Grace; Jesus is God's Grace. You ever stop to think you could be wrong? You want everything in nice little rows wrapped up in ribbons and bows. If it does not fit your thinking then you try to find a way to force it to fit. Love covers over a multitude of sins.

asaph  

asaph,

Well, I am amazed to hear this, since you have arguing the Armenian position, all along.

The deception is in the treaching, that one is not eternally secure, in the hand of the Father, are you denying this is not what you have been saying??

How is it you are not Armenian, yet advance this teaching..........That one can lose the free gift of God.

So please explain this to me, what must a Christian, do to come back to God?? if  he sins??

God Bless,

Petro

[ollie]

Matthew 7:

7.  Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
 8.  For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

[Petro]

Matthew 7:

7.  Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
 8.  For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Ollie,

Amen and Thank You, I can see you understand this truth.

Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. (Jhn 9:31)

Mat 7:7, is directed to believers, note Mat 7:6, the previous cautions believers not to give that which is Holy to dogs (unbelievers);

Mat 7
6  Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

So, clearly, anyone who can seek, knock, receive and find, is a child of God, who is secure in his position in Christ.

This is made clear, in the Gospel of Christ, who died for all of your sins.


Petro

[Psalm 119]

I hate to crash this party, but may I add another perspective?
This has become a debate over free will verses election; but is this what the passage really is talking about?

To put all this in proper perspective one has to realize that Jesus is speaking to the seven churches of Asia Minor (modern day Turkey). Although, these churches were filled with Christians, some were seriously lacking in their commitment to the Lord Jesus. These passages are actually an indictment of their behavior (some godly/ and ungodly). When you get to the aforementioned verse Rev 3:20 isn't Jesus really just wanting to enter His own church?  After all Jesus just spoke previously in Rev 3:16 that He would vomit them out of His mouth. Jesus was simply stating to THE CHURCH to repent.This passage isn't refering to unbelievers ( although most have been taught this is a salvation verse). The added emphasiss is in chapters 1-3 in becoming overcomers.

Another interesting fact is that all these churches now lie in ruin. Turkey is a country that is predominately Muslim. This should serve as a warning.

In defense of election, may I ask the following question? How many of God's holy prophet's chose him? How many of Jesus's original 12 disciples chose Him?


" No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44

Sincerely,
Psalm 119

[asaph]

asaph,

Well, I am amazed to hear this, since you have arguing the Armenian position, all along.

The deception is in the treaching, that one is not eternally secure, in the hand of the Father, are you denying this is not what you have been saying??

How is it you are not Armenian, yet advance this teaching..........That one can lose the free gift of God.

So please explain this to me, what must a Christian, do to come back to God?? if  he sins??

God Bless,

Petro

Actually I am arguing the Bible's position. If Arminius and I agree on some points that's OK.
I believe one who has faith in the work and oerson of Jesus Christ is secure. Abandon your trust in Him you could ultimately lose your salvation.
To come back to God if one sins as Paul did you simply repent and believe the Gospel. There is nothing in the Bible that says you cannot return to God having backsliden away. Yes, there are cetain cases where you can't come back, such as blaspemy against the Holy Spirit. However there are some cases where one can be restored. Paul in Romans 11 speaks of those individual Jews whom God is able to graft in again provided they do not continue in unbelief. Paul himself became a branch broken off. For he continued in Judaism even after Calvary when God cut off the legitimacy of animal sacrifices for the one scrifice of Christ for sins for ever. he even wasted the church. But later, we know he was grafted back in on the road to Damascus. To assert otherwise to to say that people could not be saved under the old economy. The Galatians in many cases fell from grace but Paul was not in despair for he travailed in birth again until Christ should be formed in them. So to say that no one can return having backslidden away is ludicrous. The case in Hebrews is unique to them in that they left the old sacrifices to follow Christ, but now were tempted to go back to the old sacrifices again. This is flirting with an unpardonable sin which has no remedy. There is a sin unto death that we are not to pray for. But there are cases where people can come back.

Love ya,

asaph

[asaph]

asaph,

If what Rom 8:12 and 13, were a possibility; would the Apostle have written, verse 38-39??

Listen carefully,

Rom 8
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39  Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I don't know what other thing, can separate us from the love of God, once we have come into fellowship with Him, Can you think of something??

The word that is conspicuously missing from Pauls list of things not able to separate us from the love of God is unbelief.

I believe that verse; I believe God. I am secure in His love! Stop believing and I have reason to be insecure.

I believe God!

asaph

[asaph]

WOULD, Anyone that understands what they have saved from, ever want to jump out of his hand??

Petro,
You are assuming that the impossibility is there.
Paul would never assume that. That is why He warns believers to continue in the faith. Jesus Himself said to remain in Him and continue in His love. What abot the deceitfulness of sin? Sin is also not in Pauls list of things that cannot separate us from the love of God. Amazing! Sin and unbelief could actually do much destruction!

1Co 15:1  Now I made known to you, brothers, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which you also stand,
1Co 15:2  through which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

This is not works this is faith. Hold fast the word by faith.

Still love me?

asaph

 

[asaph]

Apparently, you do believe, some sin exists, which a believer (such as yourself) can commit in a moment of weakness or willingly, which,  can indeed cause one to lose his free gift of  Eternal Life.  

Petro,
Not all sins are unto death but all sins need to be confessed and forsaken.

Blessings,

asaph

[asaph]

Do you believe you have eternal life, asaph??

Yes, but not separate from Christ. Life is in the Son. I have life only in Him. I am secure only in Him.

Can you lose it??

Not while trusting in Jesus and His work.

Rom 4:19  And not weakening in faith, he did not consider his own body, already having been worn out (being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah's womb,
Rom 4:20  he did not waver at the promise of God in unbelief, but was empowered by faith, giving glory to God,
Rom 4:21  and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to do.
Rom 4:22  And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness."
Rom 4:23  Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was accounted to him,
Rom 4:24  but for us also, to whom it was going to be imputed, those believing on Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead,
Rom 4:25  who was delivered up for our transgressions, and was raised for our justification.

asaph