Women in leadership roles....

[sincereheart]

The principle Paul is teaching here is order.  God does things decently and in order.  Not every prophet is to speak at once.  They are to speak so as to build up the assembly.  If one has a message that is more profitable for the assembly the other is to keep silent.  Paul then says women are not to speak in the assembly.  I know guys that feel they shouldn't sing, or even talk!  But that's a little out of context, isn't it?  Especially since Paul also spoke of one fellas daughters who prophesied in the church and did so favorably.  The speaking is instructing.  And for a woman to instruct a man...well, Paul deals with that as well.  It's not to take place as she is not to usurp his authority.  That does not mean that the man is to lord over her, or even that she has nothing valid to say.  She is to ask her husband.  Why? Because he has all of the answers?  No.  Because that is God's design.  She asks her husband who is her head.  He asks Jesus who is his Head.  

Is the man better than the woman then?  By no means!  There is neither male nor female in the assembly as far as God is concerned.  But there is order.  There is structure and the expectation of that structure being enacted.  The woman is not the lead.  The man is.  Problem is, men don't lead.  Women take up the slack, and are wrong.  So are the men.  But if a woman asks her non-leading husband a biblical question, what's he going to do?  In most cases, be flattered.  And to not look like a moron in front of his wife, study to answer her question.  Does she know the answer?  Remains to be seen.  

In my life, my wife asks me things from time to time.  Sometimes because she really doesn't know.  Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.  When I do, I'm able to build her up.  When I don't, we are able to build each other up as we learn.

Sometimes she does know, but follows the example given.  I.E., last night at our bible study, I was going off on a tangent another fellow started.  But I was missing the key verse that clarified everything.  She quietly asks me what that verse means then if my tangent was right.  She was right and I wasn't.  I pointed that out to everyone!  And the issue was solved, biblically in truth and in practice.  I would have had no problem with her simply saying so on her own, but her obedience to God's word was blinding to me.  It built me up, and those around us as well.

Just a thought...

APPLAUDS! Well said!

[sincereheart]

Posted previously here:
http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=11;action=display;threadid=4210

The Jezebel Profile

When the name Jezebel comes to mind, most of us see the painted face of a seductively dressed woman gazing into the eyes of a man who lacks good sense. The Bible portrays Jezebel in a different light.

Revelation 2:20 says that Jezebel “calleth herself a prophetess,” and men received her as a teacher. This was given as a warning to the church. The one whom you have received as a spirit filled teacher comes to you in the great tradition of Jezebel. We have observed that many wives have stalled their half of the marriage by assuming the spiritual headship of the home. They would teach their husbands. But consider 1 Cor. 14:34-35, “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”

I went back to I Kings to see what the Bible had to say about this woman Jezebel. The first thing I noticed was that Jezebel was more religious than her husband. She was spiritually intense. The Bible says in 1 Cor 11:3, “But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.” As a woman, our place is under our husband, especially in the spiritual realm. Regardless of our circumstances, when we take the spiritual lead, we have stepped out from under our head. We have tried to rearrange God’s designated place for us. We are no longer in God’s will.

The second thing I observed was that Ahab was emotionally volatile—unstable. Is your husband prone to retreat? Is he bitter, angry, or depressed? When a woman takes the lead, she is playing the masculine role. Unless her husband fights her for supremacy, he must assume second place. And men who are forced into spiritual subjection to their wives tend to be angry and retreat like Ahab.

The third thing I noticed was that she used his emotional stress to endear herself to him—strange way of lording over the husband. Jezebel manipulated and accused an innocent man, then had him murdered so that Ahab might have the vineyard he wanted. Ahab kept his face to the wall and let her do her dark deeds. Today, if a woman is willing to play her husband’s role in directing the family, he will lose his natural drive to bear responsibility.

In the dominant role, a woman quickly becomes emotionally and physically exhausted. God made us the weaker vessels. If you are in this exhausted state, then chances are you’re carrying a load not meant for you. It is not for you to press your husband to do his duty to be spiritual. You are to live joyfully in the context he provides.

The fourth thing that jumped out at me was that Ahab could easily be manipulated by his wife to suit her purposes. Jezebel used him to set up images as aids to worship under her own prophets and to kill God’s prophets. Often, a man becomes involved in the Church, not because God has called him or because it is in his heart to do so, but because he is trying to please his wife and at least LOOK spiritual. When a husband steps into a spiritual role at his wife’s beckoning, he becomes vulnerable to her guidance in that role. This is against nature, and often brings conflict in the family and in the church.

Ahab chose not to notice when his wife worked behind the scenes. Many men turn their heads when they see their wives stepping out of their God-given role. These men would rather not have to deal with the stone-cold anger they would receive from their wives if they offered any resistance. Have you been there, done that?

Jezebel knew that she was not the rightful head, so she invoked her husband’s name to give her word authority. Did you ever say, “Oh, my husband will not let me do that,” when you knew in truth he really would not care? It is a way to maintain control and stop those who would question you. When a woman does this, she stops any ministry God has to her.

Jezebel was deeply concerned about spiritual matters and took steps to help promote her spiritual leaders. In the process, she provoked her husband to destroy those in spiritual authority she did not like. Have you ever influenced your husband to think evil of those in authority because you did not like something about them? When a woman comes to this place she might as well sign her name “Jezebel.”

God has a plan for women. He revealed his will in many verses in clear, concise commands. He gives a revealing picture of what he abhors in a woman by introducing us to Jezebel, then reaffirming in the New Testament just what it was about her character that he found so despicable.

He reveals his will in a positive note in the stories of the women whom he honored. The story of Ruth tells of a young girl who had known tragedy, extreme poverty, and hard menial work, yet she maintained a positive, thankful, and submissive attitude. God blessed Ruth because her own personal success and happiness were not the driving forces in her life.

Esther is the story of a girl who lost all of her family and was taken by force to become the wife of an older, divorced, heathen man. She was put (by her husband’s decree) in danger of losing her own life as well as the lives of all her people. Yet, she overcame her circumstances and her fear in order to honor her husband. The Scripture teaches that when her husband heard her honest appeal, delivered with gracious dignity, she won his heart, and he turned to save her people. God used Esther because God’s will was more important to her than her own fulfillment.

...cont`d

[sincereheart]

Posted previously here:
http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=11;action=display;threadid=4210
cont`d...
Proverbs 31 defines the virtuous woman. She is NOT a mousy, voiceless prude. She is confident, hard working, creative, and resourceful. She uses her time wisely, and contributes to the family income. Her first virtue is that the heart of her husband is safe with her. It says that she will do him good and not evil all the days of her life. That is, he can trust her with his thoughts and feelings, never fearing that she might use the private knowledge she has of him to hurt him in any way. Some men maintain a distance from their wives because if they reveal themselves, their wives will use it against them when they are out of sorts.

If this passage had been written from our modern perspective, it would have extolled her for having a “quiet time,” prayer time, fellowship time, and would have projected an image of a prayer warrior, teacher, or counselor. In all the Scriptural profiles of righteous women, including Proverbs 31, none of those concepts are even mentioned. A Proverbs 31 woman is busy helping her husband become successful. She is too busy being productive to spend time being his conscience. In our culture, we have lost a clear understanding of what constitutes a virtuous woman. We have accepted the modern concept of the “spiritual” woman, circulating in the realm of religious power, and have forgotten that God does not see them in this same “glorious” light. What we think is spiritual, God labels “Jezebel.” “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD (Isa 55:.”

In order to become a righteous woman, reaping the benefits of having our man adore us, we must follow God’s principles of womanhood and totally reject the Jezebel tendency.

God laid down a few simple rules that must be followed because they are consistent with our feminine nature and the nature of men. It was Ruth’s virtuous and humble, yet feminine, bold example that caused Boaz to love and admire her. It was Esther’s submission to this principle that won the King’s love and appreciation for her as a woman and as his queen. These women showed themselves womanly and lovable in the midst of extreme circumstances. God honored them with favor from the men in their lives.

Dominance and control are always masculine. It is a hormonal thing. It is the way God designed male nature. It is important for a woman to understand that she has to be feminine (devoid of dominance and control) in order for her man to view her as his exact counterpart and thus respond to her protectively, with love and gentleness.

God designed us, so he knows what our husbands need in order to function properly in their roles as men who cherish the woman in their life. By nature, men need honor (this includes not questioning their decisions). They need respect (treated as if they are wise). They need reverence (daily admired as a man who is accomplishing great things). They need to be accepted for who and what they are, just like they are. Men need to feel they are in command and doing a good job.

An important part of man is a God-given, natural instinct to bring his wife pleasure. If a woman is to be greatly treasured she will choose to find pleasure in the way the man presents himself and his care. All these traits are basic masculine needs. We were created as a helpmeet to the man we married, fulfilling who and what he is. This is God’s will for us as women. When we as women obey God by responding to the needs of our husband, we are worshipping and honoring God. “Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man (1 Cor 11:9).”

God created you to fulfill your husband’s basic masculine needs. Only in that role will you find peace and cause your man to respond to you in loving adoration. This role of submission is totally feminine. It is the exact counterpart for his masculine needs. “And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. (Gen 2:18).”

A woman who criticizes her husband for watching too much TV no longer honors him. When a woman tries to control areas of their life together because she thinks she is right, she is usurping authority over him, and lording over him. A depressed, discontented woman, who feels that her husband does not meet her needs, is dishonoring God.

Hurt feelings are a way to control. Silence and emotional retreat are ugly, destructive ways to control both your husband and your children. Anger, sickness, exhaustion, and even fear are all used to control those you care about. Some women control their husband by having an intense spiritual hunger. Jezebel comes in many disguises.

There are many various and subtle ways to control and direct your husband. One of the ways to take control is to tell your husband that you want him to be the spiritual leader in the home and then let him know that you are waiting to follow. You can lead from behind just by clearing your throat at the right moment. Many nice homeschooling moms are the spiritual leaders in their homes. They play the masculine role spiritually. How this must grieve the Holy Spirit of God. Often the excuse is that we cannot serve two masters, and since our husband is carnal, we have to take the higher ground. Like Eve, we are so deceived. “And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression (1 Tim 2:14).”

A man cannot cherish a strong woman who has expressed her displeasure with him and is holding out until he fulfills her ideal. You say he should have Christ’s love. Is that what you want? Do you want your husband to have to seek supernatural power just to find a way to love you? What most men cherish in their wives is the memory when love was fun and free, with no demands—the time when she smiled at him with a sweet, girlish, “I think you are wonderful” look. She was so feminine then, so much the woman. It was a time when he wanted to hold her just because she was his, a time when he wanted to give her everything. A vague memory keeps him hoping. He is as disappointed in love as you are, maybe more. He is just as lonely. He just fills up his loneliness doing things that will distract him from the reality of the emptiness he knows is there but does not know how to fix. His helpmeet is not pleased with him. He is a loser.

The very first command God gave to a woman was, “Thy desire shall be unto thy husband and he shall rule over thee (Gen. 3:16).” Is your desire toward your husband? Do you desire him as a man? Do you live to please him? Does he rule over you? This is God’s will.

Being a Jezebel is an active role—actively controlling, actively doing our own thing. Being a Ruth or an Esther is just as active. It is a decision we make hundreds of times each day as we choose to joyfully honor our husbands.

God’s reward is without measure. Men are like clay in the hands of a woman whom they can trust with their hearts. A man, lost or saved, responds to a woman who honors him. When a woman looks to her husband with a face that is full of laughter and delight, he will look forward to being with her. If her voice speaks words of thanksgiving and joyful appreciation of him, he will want to listen to her. If her actions are full of service and creativity, and if she has goodwill towards him, he will be drawn to her as a bee is to honey. This kind of lady is altogether feminine. She is what God created and gave to Adam.

Deep in our heart we all want the same thing. We all want to be loved and cherished. We all cry out with our utmost being to be treasured in the heart of our husbands. It is the greatest honor on earth to know your husband is thrilled that you are his woman. It passes all of earth’s blessings to feel his gaze upon you and know that you are his greatest gift, his most prized possession, his best friend, his favorite pastime, his only chum, and his delight as a lover. It is a great joy to know that he is actually proud you are his. It is not remembering birthdays, opening the door of a car, or other silly customs that we crave, it is the knowledge that he is totally taken with us. We want him to want us. We simply want to be loved. It is God’s perfect will for our husbands to love us. It is God’s perfect will for us to honor, obey and reverence our husbands. God’s way works. If what you are doing this year has not worked, why not go God’s way?

1 Co 11:7 “For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.”

1 Co 11:8 “For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.”

1 Co 11:9 “Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.”

--article written by Debi Pearl

[sincereheart]

Candice Cavalier, With all due respect, as a single woman, should you really be advising married woman on what their role should be in a marriage?

[C C]

 

As a single woman I'm advising anyone in the chatroom to not be LEGALISTS!

My point is about legalism as in:  "nobody in the New Testiment was more commited to studying the Bible than the Pharisees.  They could quote long passages from memory.  They knew the content of their Bible because they poured over it daily.  But Jesus had a word to say about their kind of Bible study, "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.  But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life

Jesus was pointing out that their approach to the Bible was nothing more than an academic discipline.  They KNEW their Bible, but there was no life in their empty religious routines.

Their approach to the Bible was no different than the approach some Christians today take toward the activity of their Christian life.  There are people who attend church, preach sermons, teach Bible classes, sing, pray, tithe, and do a dozen other things that they believe God expects without on ounce of spiritual life in what they are doing.  That may be church ministry, but can it really be called Christian Ministry? What separates Christian ministry from empty religious activity?  LIFE!  Much activity takes place in the modern church that has no real life in it."

And since the last time I mentioned it You supposed I was talking to about marriage or to Married women and you asked whether I would be advising married women, I will quote Paul again:  

"You know very well, my borthers (for I am speaking to those well acquained with the subject), that the Law can only exercise authority over a man so long as he is alive.  A married woman, for example, is bound by law to her husband so long as he is alive.  But if he dies, then his legal claim over her disappears.  This means that if she would give herself to another man while her husband is alive, she incures the stigma of adultery, but if, after her husband's death, she does exactly the same thing, no one could call her an adulteress, for the legal hold over her has been dissolved by her husband's death. . .the death of Christ on the cross has made you "dead" to the claims of the law, and you are free to give yourselves in marriage so to speak, to another, the one who was raised from the dead, that you may be productive for God. (7:1-4)

I'm not talking about marriage.  I'm talking about Christ's death on the cross freed us from the demands of the law, the same way a man dying frees his wife from the demands of marriage.  We are no longer bound by the law.  We are  Free in Christ.  Free in Christ to talk in church.  Christ's freedom from the law includes the laws that aren't really laws that people say are laws because Paul said them.  

My point is, Paul was trying to get folks to walk closer to Christ.  He wasn't creating a new set of commandments.  My other point was, although there is wide ranges of speculation on Why Paul said women shouldn't teach in church--Paul also said we weren't slaves to the old Testament Law.  

Are you saying that the words of Paul are the new Law on which we are to focus ourselves?  The words of Paul are more powerful than the 10 commandments?  The words of Paul this new binding authority by which we should enslave ourselves to as law AFTER Christ set us FREE, we now have new laws in which to enslave ourselves?

Legalists want to bind us to the law again.

"The Christian is DEAD to the LAW!!  Our old self was subject to the law . . .the person we used to be is DEAD.  The life we have now is the life of Christ.  We now live by a new law called the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus."

What legalists want to do is make us yoked and bound to stuff they made up and say they are laws.  They're not LAWS and we're not legalists.  I mean some of you all may be thinking that you've made yourself righteous by your actions.  If you have made yourself righteous then you are self-righteous.  But if Christ has made you righteous, then you're not going to get more righteous by claiming that Paul's words are law and that women can't speak in church.  Christ healed on the Sabboth, and women teach on the sabboth.  Christ, the Lord of the Sabboth is the leader of the church and our focus is on Him.  If we abide in Christ then the Lord of the Sabboth, Who is also the Lord of the other laws can free you from the legalism that binds you.

Or lets have a big communion with the dead and send greetings to Paul's friends, because Paul's words are law and we can't be Christians unless we live by them.  

It is for Freedom that Christ has set me free.  

By the way, I have NEVER spoken during the worship service, but during Bible study, we all speak freely about what we think about the scriptures.  We have a leader of the Bible study, and he likes everyone to give their insights and examples.  I know the Apostle Paul wouldn't be offended and neither is Christ.  As a matter of fact, the Bible Study leader's wife is part of the Bible study--and I've been a part of this Bible study since 1997--there doesn't seem to be an issue when I say something about the Bible study during the Bible study.  AND during the worship service we're going to be giving our testimony of how we came to know Christ.  I don't think Paul or Christ will have a problem with that either.  The only folks that would have a problem with that are the folks still bound by the law.  But those wouldn't be Christians would they be.  I wonder why people bound by the law, are studying Paul's words and missing the part about the Freedom in Christ?

Peace

[His_child]

Why should we bother with any of Paul's words since he seemed to be little more than a sexist?
Either that or he had very poor language skills and simply was not able to communicate the word of God.
Why not just get rid of Romans through Philemon?

[sincereheart]

Remember Ladies, we're dealing with the male ego, Christian or unchristian.  When men get all in an uproar and start getting legalistic about things, that's when we know their own spirit is not in check.  And women know better then men about the male ego and how a man's head swells so just for that reason God does raise up Godly female leaders.
Wow. However did you learn so much about men?  

In Christianity there are neither male nor female, we're all supposed to be equal.  But it's almost like the human spirit doesn't want to embrace equality.  There's lots of Christians running around that would love to use Christianity to make themselves feel better about themselves.  Then they start getting out scriptures that point to women's roles of being submissive and quiet.  I think that they're taken out of context....
Sounds more like you're trying to use Scripture to feel better about yourself~   What the Bible says isn't really what it means? It was only for that time? While you throw out Paul's writings, do you also dismiss Proverbs 31?

Wow. Sounds like a whole lot of control and pride issues. And a lot of what you think versus what the Bible says. Following what you think would lead to a whole lot of confusion and chaos which is exactly opposite of what Scripture lays out. In Christ we ARE equal. In a job or a marriage we are assigned certain duties. Why constantly try to circumvent that? Maybe a third option is just to be self-employed.

[sincereheart]

Questions a Wife Can Ask to Tear Her House Down --Debi Pearl
Proverbs 14:1 "Every wise woman buildeth her house; but the foolish plucketh it down with her hands."

He wonders about his reasons for working there, even though it is a good job. He remembers he has had opportunity to witness. Yet? He grows unsure of his own leading.

3. Honey, I need to ask you something very important that really tears me up inside, does this  activity not grieve your spirit?

The Spirit of God had been prompting him concerning this, but he was trying not to hear; almost he brought the subject up  himself last evening, but now she is disappointed with him. He suspects he is not spiritual, but somehow the whole thing makes him angry. He feels pushed.

4. Why don’t you ever want to go with me to _____________?

He doesn’t feel comfortable around those people, they seem so artificial, and their kids are whiny jerks. The man talks in a quiet humble way which grates on his nerves, it just seem so “put on,” but his wife doesn’t see it that way. He guesses he must be carnal. Somehow he just doesn’t care anymore.

5. Before we were married you read your Bible; at least you said you did, why don’t you ever  read and teach me and the children?

He has a vague memory of enjoying reading and relating to how scared Moses was of the job God gave him, but somewhere he just lost interest. He supposes he is backslidden.

6. Why don’t you spend more time with our sons?

The thrill of having boys has faded. The few times he has disciplined them, his wife talked with him later for being harsh. Maybe he was. He likes being with the men better; anyway, they are mama’s boys.  Not that they are sissies, they just have this close, talky, relationship with mama. He feels separated. He’s not that type. He can see the accusation in the  boys’ eyes; it is reflected from their mother’s eyes. Same questioning look,  which provokes in him the same feelings of condemnation he gets from being  around her. He thinks, “I am a real jerk. I wonder if I’m even saved.”

7. Do you ever think of just loving me in the spiritual way instead of the carnal? I am so  hungry for some deep spiritual understanding and communication.

Something deep inside him is so dissatisfied, so frustrated that she responds only when she feels right about it. It speaks nothing of his manhood. His soul is sick all the way to its core. He falls asleep dreaming of the woman he met in the store today. God, help his filthy soul.

7. Sweetheart, why won’t you have devotions with us? We want you to lead us in prayer and help us grow spiritual. The Bible says you are our spiritual leader, why, why will you not lead?

He laughs inside himself, “Are you kidding? I can’t do that. I would feel like a total hypocrite. I can’t teach them about something I don’t know. I’m out of here.” He leaves, or works, or watches TV all the same; it is his escape.

8. Why do you think the pastor said that about Charles? Don’t you think it was cruel?  Sometimes I wonder if we should go to Church somewhere else.

Angry bile seethes in him as he listens to her tell the story for the fourth time. He silently contemplates, “The pastor’s a jerk. He’s not any better than anyone else. I don’t know what makes him think he’s so righteous.”

9. Poor Charles, it is so sad to see what the preacher’s mean words have done to that family.  Don’t you think we should do something about it, like call and let them know we love them and don’t agree with the pastor, because I am so hurt at the pastor myself?

Frustrated at his own failures, and bitterness at others has run its course and is now bearing fruit as he silently surmises: “All those self-religious people make me sick. I don’t care what they do, but they will not do it to me.”

10. Honey, its church time. You need to get dressed. What! are you not going? But you always go to Church? Do you think you should let a silly thing like that business with Charles, keep you from worship? What about the boys? You’ll be a bad influence on them, don’t you care?

11. Jane, I want you to know that without your close, loving friendship, which I turn to everyday, I would never be able to get through this loveless marriage. He is so cold and distant. He doesn’t care about the children. I don’t know how I could have been so deceived into thinking he was a fine Christian man when I married him. Will you ask the girls to pray for him this week at our women’s meeting?

Proverbs 14:1 “Every wise woman buildeth her house; but the foolish plucketh it down with her hands.”

[sincereheart]

"It is not a man’s responsibility to police women who would be teachers or church leaders. It is a free country and we allow most anything, but it is the responsibility of Christian men to never sit and listen to a woman minister in the church. Women can speak on a variety of subjects outside the church service; they can run a business, be president of a company or a country. They can teach on health, child training, or any other subject, but God does not permit them to take spiritual authority over men or to teach the Bible to men. That is God’s view. There are other views. Take your pick."


http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/index.php?id=25&backPID=55&tt_news=35

[C C]

Sin sear heart,

Jezebel's big sin was having the kind of Authority over man that Paul is refering to when he used the word Authority--She threatened Elisha's life!  That word authority at the time that Paul used it was control over LIFE & DEATH.  Men shouldn't sit and church and fear for their life!

Elisha ran from her.  Remember?

In your writing however, you blame Jezebel's actions are what caused Ahab to act like an idiot.  Honey, listen.  Ahab was an idiot before Jezebel came along.  So are many men.  But if you take Adams stance, you'll say, "it was that woman!  It was that woman that YOU gave to me that tempted me."  Adam blames God and the woman.  It was NONE of his own fault.  It's wise to not make men do anything or even give them an inkling that they're doing what you said, because if something goes wrong, it will be ALLLLLLL the your fault.  The men wont hold themselves accountable and they wont confess or repent as long as there's a woman to blame.  As long as there's a woman to blame, they'll maintain that it was a woman's fault.  As you know, Paul's words do have wisdom in them.  But it's not really women that are at fault that Paul points out that God insists that we submit to men.  God insists that we submit to them and it probably has a whole lot to do with their tendency to blame stuff on women.  I never said there was no wisdom in Paul's words.  All I'm saying is that getting legalistic is missing the point.  

And the other thing that I'm saying is that Paul's words are are not held higher than the highest commandment.

If you ask Jesus, what the most important commandment is, do you think His answer will be, "that you keep all Paul's words as law, especially the part about women and them keeping silent in church?"  Well, He wont say that, and you wont say that but your spirit testifies to what you wont say.  You think that legalism is the key way to live out God's love.

I just jump for joy when people talk about Jezebel.  You know why?  Because really, there ARE NOT many other women that caused the entire Isreal to sin.  When someone wants to search the scriptures for a bad example of a woman that messed things up, they find Jezebel and Eve.  Not too many others.  t.  The only woman people can really think of as far as women leading people astray, you get Eve and Jezebel.  That's a pretty good track record for women NOT leading people astray.

Let me ask you a question.  Is Jeroaboam the Son of Nebat Who caused Isreal to sin, male or female?  How about all the other kings that lead Isreal astray, we're talkin' Kings here.  Were they male or female?  Now, hopefully you get a clue about how males are perfectly able to lead people to sin.  I guess you're in denial about that.  You think men don't cause people to sin.

1 Kings 16:26
He walked in all the ways of Jeroboam son of Nebat and in his sin, which he had caused Israel to commit, so that they provoked the LORD , the God of Israel, to anger by their worthless idols.
(Whole Chapter: 1 Kings 16 In context: 1 Kings 16:25-27)

1 Kings 16:31
He not only considered it trivial to commit the sins of Jeroboam son of Nebat, but he also married Jezebel daughter of Ethbaal king of the Sidonians, and began to serve Baal and worship him.
(Whole Chapter: 1 Kings 16 In context: 1 Kings 16:30-32)

1 Kings 21:22
I will make your house like that of Jeroboam son of Nebat and that of Baasha son of Ahijah, because you have provoked me to anger and have caused Israel to sin.'
(Whole Chapter: 1 Kings 21 In context: 1 Kings 21:21-23)

1 Kings 22:52
He did evil in the eyes of the LORD , because he walked in the ways of his father and mother and in the ways of Jeroboam son of Nebat, who caused Israel to sin.
(Whole Chapter: 1 Kings 22 In context: 1 Kings 22:51-53)

2 Kings 3:3
Nevertheless he clung to the sins of Jeroboam son of Nebat, which he had caused Israel to commit; he did not turn away from them.
(Whole Chapter: 2 Kings 3 In context: 2 Kings 3:2-4)

2 Kings 10:29
However, he did not turn away from the sins of Jeroboam son of Nebat, which he had caused Israel to commit-the worship of the golden calves at Bethel and Dan.
(Whole Chapter: 2 Kings 10 In context: 2 Kings 10:28-30)

2 Kings 13:2
He did evil in the eyes of the LORD by following the sins of Jeroboam son of Nebat, which he had caused Israel to commit, and he did not turn away from them.
(Whole Chapter: 2 Kings 13 In context: 2 Kings 13:1-3)

2 Kings 13:11
He did evil in the eyes of the LORD and did not turn away from any of the sins of Jeroboam son of Nebat, which he had caused Israel to commit; he continued in them.
(Whole Chapter: 2 Kings 13 In context: 2 Kings 13:10-12)

2 Kings 14:24
He did evil in the eyes of the LORD and did not turn away from any of the sins of Jeroboam son of Nebat, which he had caused Israel to commit.
(Whole Chapter: 2 Kings 14 In context: 2 Kings 14:23-25)

2 Kings 15:9
He did evil in the eyes of the LORD , as his fathers had done. He did not turn away from the sins of Jeroboam son of Nebat, which he had caused Israel to commit.
(Whole Chapter: 2 Kings 15 In context: 2 Kings 15:8-10)

2 Kings 15:18
He did evil in the eyes of the LORD . During his entire reign he did not turn away from the sins of Jeroboam son of Nebat, which he had caused Israel to commit.
(Whole Chapter: 2 Kings 15 In context: 2 Kings 15:17-19)

2 Kings 15:24
Pekahiah did evil in the eyes of the LORD . He did not turn away from the sins of Jeroboam son of Nebat, which he had caused Israel to commit.
(Whole Chapter: 2 Kings 15 In context: 2 Kings 15:23-25)

2 Kings 15:28
He did evil in the eyes of the LORD . He did not turn away from the sins of Jeroboam son of Nebat, which he had caused Israel to commit.
(Whole Chapter: 2 Kings 15 In context: 2 Kings 15:27-29)

2 Kings 17:21
When he tore Israel away from the house of David, they made Jeroboam son of Nebat their king. Jeroboam enticed Israel away from following the LORD and caused them to commit a great sin.
(Whole Chapter: 2 Kings 17 In context: 2 Kings 17:20-22)

2 Kings 23:15
Even the altar at Bethel, the high place made by Jeroboam son of Nebat, who had caused Israel to sin-even that altar and high place he demolished. He burned the high place and ground it to powder, and burned the Asherah pole also.
(Whole Chapter: 2 Kings 23 In context: 2 Kings 23:14-16)

Free in Christ to speak in Church

[C C]

Sincereheart,

 
I might also add, about Adam . . .he didn't need no snake to tempt him to blame someone, he came up with the blaming on HIS OWN.  And did you notice who got the bigger a-s chewing?  It was Adam, and do you know why?  It's only when we're sorry for our sin that we find forgiveness, not when we blame someone for our sin.  

It just cracks me up the way that some women are so conditioned to think that men are not utterly flawed.  

You think that YOUR behavior is going to make or break your husband--it is only the Lord and the Holy Spirit's work in a man's heart-- but that's another subject.  

[C C]

 

Sincereheart,

I'm reading over more of your post.  I think you're giving yourself and women too much credit and POWER over men.  In your words above about how a women tears her house down, you're saying this woman has all this power over this man.  It's her fault that he's not doing the Lord's work.  In essence, you're TELLING WOMEN to use power over men.

If you were sincere in your heart about women not having power over men, you would know to NOT even try to posses any power over a man.

I'll tell you what, I have over 20 brothers.  Woohoo!  That's a lot.  And I will tell you what else--THEY KNOWWW, when they are being manipulated.  I hate it when Christian women give other Christian women Minipulation techniques on how to get men to do stuff.  It doesn't matter HOW you slice it!!  You're saying, "the way to get your man to do this or that or that other thing . . ."  That's not submission.  

Long before I gave any validity to the Bible or any of Paul's words, I found out that any and ALL systems that manipulate, trick, work in such a way, say in such a way, do in such a way, act in such a way, behave in such a way so that man will do this or that--ALL of it is in vain.  Because what we really want is a man's HEART.  We want his very heart.  We don't want his behavior.  At least, I don't want a man's behavior.  I'm not saying in a spouse, I mean any man.  The only thing of value is what's in his heart.  And the only person that can change a man's heart is God through love.  You can get your man to behave in such a way, but only as long as he's within your range of vision and hearing.  Wait 'till you're gone, then see what he does.  He'll do stuff purposely if he was controlled by you, he'll do stuff purposely to prove that you don't controll him, albeit, he might only do it when you're not around.

I found out that any and ALL systems that manipulate, trick,

work in such a way,

say in such a way,

do in such a way,

act in such a way,

behave in such a way so that man will do this or that--ALL of it is bad marriage counsel.  Because men know when they are being manipulated.  Even if Paul didn't say a darn thing in the whole entire Bible about submission I WOULD still swear by it.  What matters is that its a true fact God wants men to do the right thing because its in their heart.  You know what, it's not in a whole lot of men's hearts to take out the trash.  So, take it out yourself.

The truth is in a man's heart is not in it, no behavior is good enough, so why try to manipulate his behavior.  A wise woman does all these things for her home, she doesn't try to figure out how to manipulate her husband into doing things for her home.

Anyway, I'm not offering marriage counsel, I'm just saying that manipulation tactics are the same thing is not submitting and behavior strategies are the same thing as not submitting--either way you're still trying to get your man to do the things that YOU see fit, which is not submitting.

Peace

[C C]

Response to Sincereheart's comments:

My quote:  "Remember Ladies, we're dealing with the male ego, Christian or unchristian.  When men get all in an uproar and start getting legalistic about things, that's when we know their own spirit is not in check.  And women know better then men about the male ego and how a man's head swells so just for that reason God does raise up Godly female leaders."

Your smart answer: "Wow. However did you learn so much about men? "

My smart answer: "20 brothers.  You'd think I'd figure out a thing or two by now.

My quote:  "In Christianity there are neither male nor female, we're all supposed to be equal.  But it's almost like the human spirit doesn't want to embrace equality.  There's lots of Christians running around that would love to use Christianity to make themselves feel better about themselves.  Then they start getting out scriptures that point to women's roles of being submissive and quiet.  I think that they're taken out of context...."

Your response: "Sounds more like you're trying to use Scripture to feel better about yourself~   What the Bible says isn't really what it means? It was only for that time? While you throw out Paul's writings, do you also dismiss Proverbs 31?"

My response:  In God I am complete.  Even if I'm dumb and rebellious, God still loves me.    But I'm neither dumb nor rebellious, I'm just not groveling in darkness bound by legalism because I know my identity in Christ, the Truth that sets us Free.  I don't dismiss Paul's writings, I'm getting to the principle of the matter of Paul's writings.  Where as you are hung up on his exact words and phrases, I'm focused on point he was trying to make.  Paul was trying to make a point.  apparently, some have missed it.

Your quote:  "Wow. Sounds like a whole lot of control and pride issues."

Yes there is a whole lot of control and pride issues.  I'm saying that men have them and you've fallen into the trap of them by missing Paul's point.

Your  quote:  "And a lot of what you think versus what the Bible says."  

The Bible has to be taken as a whole and it is an instrument by which you learn about God.  Not a rule book to live out Pharisees' fantasies of living out every rule and missing that Christ that sets you free.

Your quote:  "Following what you think would lead to a whole lot of confusion and chaos which is exactly opposite of what Scripture lays out."  Are you saying that freedom in Christ causes confusion.  ?

Your quote: "In Christ we ARE equal."

Now you're talking

Your quote: "In a job or a marriage we are assigned certain duties. Why constantly try to circumvent that? Maybe a third option is just to be self-employed."

You supposed I'm trying to circumvent it. But really, it's because I refuse to be legalistic about things.

I AM self-employed.  I'm an independent contractor.    

[sincereheart]

Your smart answer: "Wow. However did you learn so much about men? "

My smart answer: "20 brothers.  You'd think I'd figure out a thing or two by now.

I realize you may not comprehend this so let me try and explain this in such a way that you might understand.... Being a sister and being a wife are different. I don't care if you have 100 brothers - blood, foster, or adopted.

In your writing however...

I guess you missed the part where the source was quoted....

It's not about legalism and it's not about manipulation. I'm sorry you don't understand that.

Sin sear heart,

a-s chewing

If you were sincere in your heart

The fruit is rotten and I can smell it from here.

You may want to seriously consider your OPINIONS on marriage at least until you've experienced it. God's way works. Yours are just more of the worldly ideals.

[C C]

 

It's your remarks that got me on a tangeant.  I'm sorry, I can tell now that you're not debating anymore, you're taking it personally.  Don't take it personally.  I don't even know you.  You shouldn't, at least in my opinion feel bad about anything I say.  Don't feel bad.

What makes me think you feel bad is that you're saying I shouldn't say anything until I'm married.  And MY impression is that you're taking a stab  . . .there were a few others that I thought were stabs.

But what I interpreted as a stab that makes me think you're upset is that you keep pointing out that I'm single--as if I'm so unhappy about it.  I'm DIVORCED.  And I wake up every morning praising God that I'm divorced.  Actually, I got separated in 1995.  And when I found Christ, then I had someone to thank that I'm not with my husband anymore.  It requires praise.  You don't know how happy you are until you've experienced true misery.  

Anyway, that's neither here nor there.    I know that you're upset and I don't want you to be upset.  There's no reason to be upset.  None.  It's not even you my rant is directed at.  Not you personally.  It's the whole world that weighs people down with burdens.  At least in Christianity we could overlook each other when we don't reach the intended goal of perfection.  I like to rant and argue and then I hurt people's feelings, it's sometimes not worth the arguement.

There's no sense in arguing if your feelings are going to get hurt.  

Actually, its for your own freedom that I was arguing with you.  Now, suppose your husband went mad and he told you to steal a car.  Now, you would have it at the back of your mind that men can lead you into sin and that submitting to him in everything is conditional on whether he's submitting to Christ--you might save yourself prison time.  And if whether or not he's submitting to Christ becomes an issue, there's probably already other sins greater than not submitting involved.  It's a matter of love and trust and walking with Christ.  It's not a matter of following an instruction booklet.

Peace