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[2nd Timothy]

2d Tim,

you said;

2d tim reply#30
 will take a stab at this.....If you back up to verse 1 in the same chapter, there are some clues as to who the women is.  

Rev 12:1
1 A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.

See Genesis 37:9-11 - describes these same symbols used here in Rev, in Joseph's dream.  The moon is the mother, the sun is the father, and the 11 stars are his 11 brothers not including himself.  Sounds to me like the 12 tribes of Israel.

Rev continued...
2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.

This is the way, men begin, new religions, with themselves at its head.

How do you connect the woman standing on the moon, being the moon and then the pregnant mother of eleven.??


Blessings,

Petro

LOL...read it again Petro!  If you don't understand what I said you could at least ask for clarification, right?  

Lets try this again.

Gen 37:9-11
9  Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. "Listen," he said, "I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me."
10  When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, "What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?"
11  His brothers were jealous of him, but his father kept the matter in mind.

Is there any questions about what this is saying?  Joseph has a dream that the the sun, moon and 11 stars were bowing to him in his dream.   After hearing that the sun, moon and 11 stars were bowing to him in his dream, his father then asks, "will your mother, I and your 11 brothers bow down before you?"  There should be no question that this is the family that the nation of Israel comes from....Jacob, Rachel, and the 12 tribes or sons (forefathers of Israel)!  

The women in Revelation 12:1 is clothed with these very symbols!  Is it coencidence that these same symbols are used in Rev?  I have heard people try to say that this woman in Revelation is the church.  But if you read verse 5 that is not possible.  Who is the male child that rules with an iron sceptor?

Answer...
Ps 2:7-9
7  I will proclaim the decree of the LORD: He said to me, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father.
8  Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession.
9  You will rule them with an iron scepter; you will dash them to pieces like pottery."

There is no question the child is Christ.  So if the women is the church, how can she bring forth christ?  Christ created the church, not the other way around.  This would truly be a new religion.  

In light of these passages of scripture, the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head can be no other than the nation of Israel.

I have open ears if there is some other passage of scripture that explains the women of Revelation clearer.

Grace and Peace!

[Tibby]

Hey, I have an idea... let’s just wait and see!  

Just a thought...

[2nd Timothy]

Just to add a little more weight to what the scripture says concerning the Woman in Rev 12.

Rev 12:6
6  The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

Jeremiah reinforces this....(which is during the time of Jacobs trouble)

Jer 30:23-31:2
23  See, the storm of the LORD will burst out in wrath, a driving wind swirling down on the heads of the wicked.
24  The fierce anger of the LORD will not turn back until he fully accomplishes the purposes of his heart. In days to come you will understand this.

CHAPTER 31

1 "At that time," declares the LORD, "I will be the God of all the clans of Israel, and they will be my people."
2 This is what the LORD says: "The people who survive the sword will find favor in the desert; I will come to give rest to Israel."

All of this fits together like glove considering Daniels 70th week focusses on Israel

Backing up a few verses to...
Jer 30:7
7  How awful that day will be! None will be like it. It will be a time of trouble for Jacob, but he will be saved out of it.

As seen in my earlier post, we already know that Jacob is mentioned in Joseph's dream.  He is the forefather of the Nation of Israel, the woman of Revelation 12.

Grace and Peace!

[Petro]

I don't see, how you tie, Joseph's dream to the woman of Rev 12, it sounds disjointed with no clear connection, between the moon being personified as a woman at all with the woman of Rev 12.

Notice,

Rev 12
13  And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

This woman is also the same woman, whose seed

"which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
 
is persecuted by the dragon, at verse;

17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which

We also read at Gen 3;

14  And the LORD God said unto the serpent,  ..........
15  And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

And finally we read;

Gal 4
21  Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22  For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23  But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24  Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25  For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27  For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28  Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29  But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30  Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31  So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Two questions;

1. Is the seed of verse Rev 12:13, and verse 17 two different seedliness??

or One seedline??

2.  There is no question Eve would be the mother of the seed which would bruise the serpents head (Gen 3:15) the dragon of Rev 12, is the same serpent who was present at the Garden in Gen3,  and heavenly free Jerusalem is personified as a woman, the mother of all who are free, and there is no question about it, she is the one which gave birth to the man child since the word "us all" includes Him, since He is the first born of many brethern.

Is the Israel of Rom 11:

26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Speaking specifically of the Nation of Israel??

and ,

3. What  Zion  is in view herein??


Blessings,

Petro

29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

[Petro]

2d tim,

you said in your reply #26
Also in Matthew...

Matt 24:3
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

Jesus covers a lot of territory in the rest of this chapter. Signs about things about to happen, his return, as well as the END of the age.

There is two questions herein;

1. What will be the sign of your coming?
2. And of the end of the age?

Jesus answers both, concerning the sign of his coming he said:
Paul2, in one of his posts, states, the end of the age, ends with the return of Jesus and the begining of the Day of the Lord, the signs which point to the beging of this day is outlined in the following verses you have posted, below;

Matt 24:29-31
29 "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

As for your question;

[Who is the elect? Anyone done a word study on this?]

The elect can mean Jesus specifically. (Isa 42:1-9)
Can also mean the Nation of Israel specifically (Isa 45:2-4)
And, can refer to the total some of all whom God has chosen, in relationship to Christ. (2 Pet 1:10, Eph 1:4-5,11)

All men will see him!

I have taken Mat 24;29-31, and the parallel passages at Mk 13, and Rev 6, all of which in my opinion, are the same event and fit them together, line upon line so that a comparison can be made, "All men will see him" is apparent in these verses


Mat 24 - Mk 13 - Rev 6
29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
25  And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood
13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth,
30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
26  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
27  And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
32  Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
28  Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
13  ..........even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Does this sound like a rapture??  or the end time Note;  Rev 6:14.."the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

As opposed to...

Matt 24:40-42
40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.
41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
42 "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.

It is clear to me, this is not a rapture from the preceding verses, the word that connects the follwoing verses to 40-42, is the word "THEN" begining verse 40, I see you have left this word out, but it is the word # 5119, tote tot'-eh, - ie; at the time that, and it, should not overlooked.

Here are the verses preceding 40-42;

36  But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37  But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

This not a rapture, but rather judgement on the earth, it sounds like the Day of the Lord a Day of Wrath according to Zepheniah 1:14-15.

Blessings,

Petro

[2nd Timothy]

Lets stick to one point or post at a time....we are getting way ahead here.

I don't see, how you tie, Joseph's dream to the woman of Rev 12, it sounds disjointed with no clear connection, between the moon being personified as a woman at all with the woman of Rev 12.

The moon is not the woman of Revelation.  Gen shows where the moon represents the mother of Israel.  The woman of Revelation is figurative, a vision!

We must keep in mind here that John is told to write down what he see's.
Here...
Rev 1:10-11
10 On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,
11 which said: "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea."
(NIV)
and here...
Rev 1:19
19 "Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.
(NIV)

Now, in Ch 12 he SEE's a "great wonder that appears in heaven".  A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

He wrote down what he saw!  Revelation is filled with numerous wild visions such as this.  We know a physical woman cannot be litteraly clothed with the sun, so this must be speaking figuratively.  So we are given this description obviously to help us understand who she is.  

What we know about her.
1. She is clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown a 12 stars.
Is there anywhere in the bible that describes the symbols used which the woman is clothed with?  Yes!  Gen 37:9-10 which describes the family that the nation of Israel comes from as the Sun, moon and 12 stars.  This would also be easily understood by the Hebrews who were well versed in the OT.  

2. She is travailing in child birth.
3. She brought forth a man-child who would rule with an Iron scepter.
What woman brought forth a man child that will rule with an Iron scepter, painfully?  Mary?  True!  But, we know she is not clothed in the Sun, and she is not around when the dragon is roaming about in the last days. Eve? same problems here.  What about the Church?  We know this is not so.  Christ built the church himself...she didn't give birth to him.  Again, the only reasonable conclusion is the nation of Israel.

4. She fled into the wilderness, where God prepared a place for her, for 1,260 days.
Jer 31:2 apears to describes this event for the Clans of Israel, during the time of Jacobs trouble no less (a time set aside for dealing with who?  The nation Israel!).

5. After She had given birth she is persued by the dragon when he is cast down to earth so he could devour the child.
The Church?  There is no question that Satan hates the church, but the Church did not give birth to the man child, so this could not be the Church.  Eve?  When was Eve persued by the serpant so he could devour her child?  Does not fit.  However, we know that Satan ALSO hates the nation of Israel because she was used by God to bring our saviour into the world.  Also interesting to note that Herod wanted to kill Jesus when he was born...no doubt under the influence of the dragon.

6. She was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach.
Again, we see she is offered protection from the dragon in the desert.  Will Eve be offered protection during tribulation period?  Not unless she is ressurected first.  The Church?  Perhaps!  You will also note that in Daniel 7:25 the saints are handed over for this exact amount of time.  Daniel 12:7 records again the exact time frame concerning the power of the holy people being finally broken and all things concerning Daniels prophecy completed.  I can't say for sure these events in Daniel are related, but it sure seems that way.

7. The Dragon is wroth with the woman because he can't get to her due to devine proctection. (Provoked)

So who is this woman?   The only possible choice that I can see is Israel.  Saying she is the church is obvious error. Saying she is Eve requires too much of a stretch.   Saying she is Israel agree's freely with other scripture without any bending and forcing what so ever, and agree's with what we know about John's description of her .

This woman is also the same woman, whose seed

"which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

is persecuted by the dragon, at verse;

17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which

We also read at Gen 3;

14  And the LORD God said unto the serpent,  ..........
15  And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

I agree about the Eve being promised the seed, and the serpent being present in the garden...all flesh did come from Eve.

However, the man-children that Eve bore, never ruled with an Iron scepter, and were never snatched up to Gods throne.  Also, how can Eve be persued by the dragon when he is cast down, she is not around now.  How can Eve be lead into the desert for protection during that time?  Doesn't fit.  Also note that the SEED singular is speaking of Christ, not all of Eve's seeds

Gal 3:19
19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.

The Nation of Israel who the mesiah (SEED) came through fits perfectly in all aspects of what John saw and wrote down.


Rev 12:17
17  Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring-- those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Note in the above verse, the separation between the woman and those who keep the testimony of God.  Does the nation of Israel follow the testimony of Jesus and obey Gods commandments?  No, however, believers in Christ do and those are made heirs to Abrahams seed and the promise.

Gal 3:29
29  If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Of course, you are entitled to your interpritation of scripture.
All the evidence I have shown here shows the woman in Revelation 12 can be no other than the Nation of Israel.  Everything that John saw and wrote concerning her agrees with this, as well as scripture.  Making Eve the woman is a forced stretch at best.

Grace and Peace!

[2nd Timothy]

I will take a look at the Post regarding Mat 24 tomorrow, its getting late and I'm getting tired.

Grace and Peace!

[2nd Timothy]

Petro,

Before we get to Matthew, let me first say that after reading over my last post, there is somewhat of a negative tone there that was not intended.  I promise I am not trying to shove or force anything down your throat concerning the Book of Revelation.   I don't think we should aproach this as a debate, but rather sharing our understanding of scripture.  Anyone who claims they have understand all that God says in his word would be highly mistaken.   I know I for one am no expert on theology.   I do pray when reading the word and ask God to open my eyes to his truth.   With regard to Revelation, I think anyone would agree that this is a most diffucult book.  Without the holy spirit leading one, it would be impossible to discern what is contained therin.   In some cases, we may not understand until Christ himself is revealed.   So just to reitterate, we are sharing views, and exploring Gods word here.  Not trying to add or take away from his word.   My apologies if it sounded as though there is no way the woman could be any other than Israel.   From what I read and see, it sure appears that way, and I am only sharing this view, not forcing.

Moving on...

There is two questions herein;

1. What will be the sign of your coming?
2. And of the end of the age?

Actually, there are 3 questions but Jesus never really addresses the first one.
Matt 24:3
3  As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"
(NIV)

1. When will these things happen? (Jesus had just told them that the buildings the deciples were pointing out to him would soon be destroyed in verse 1 and 2.)
2. what will be the sign of your coming?
3. And what will be the sign of the end of the age?

To understand this, we almost have to ask ourselves, which question Jesus is addressing, which he indicates.

Matt 24:4-39
4  Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you.
5  For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.
6  You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
7  Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
8  All these are the beginning of birth pains

In verse 7 he says the end is still to come.  Verse 8 he says these are the beginning of birth pains.

9  "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.

This seems to be speaking to people present, but I would not say it doesn't include many more down through the years.

10  At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
11  and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
12  Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
13  but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
14  And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Here is a clue about when the END will come.  When the gospel is preached in the WHOLE world.  We know that was not the case in bible days.  However, we most deffinately live in that time now.   Also notice the things mentioned here happen throughout history up till now.


15  "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel-- let the reader understand--

Here he brings things to a point.  When you SEE the abomination that causes desolation, refering to the book of Daniel  (LET THE READER UNDERSTAND).   No question Jesus is addressing a particular time, the great tribulation, which he points out a few verses from here.

16  then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
17  Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house.
18  Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak.
19  How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!
20  Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.
21  For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now-- and never to be equaled again.

Great distress unequaled from the beginning, and never again!  Clearly the tribulation period and Gods wrath.

22  If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
23  At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it.
24  For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect-- if that were possible.
25  See, I have told you ahead of time.
26  "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.


continued due to length...

[2nd Timothy]

Now he goes into the sign of his coming.

27  For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Notice there is no sign.  Lighting is a split second happening.  No warning it is about to strike.   So shall be the coming of the Son of man.  Instantly and covers from the East to the west  (the whole earth)


28  Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

I retract this idea below...see next post.
Currious verse.  Actually I have read this passage many time and this is the first time it has caught my attention.  What carcasses?  Could this be the carcusses of those raptured?  I don't know for sure but it is a thought.  If that is the case, it certainly adds fuel to the pre-trib view.  Another possibility is that his coming will kill the many wicked.  Either way, this is an interesting verse.


29  "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

Immediately AFTER the distress of those days.  This coraborates Rev 6 verse 12, at the opening of the sixth seal.

30  "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
31  And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

A very visible event.  Is it the same event as described before about lightning from east to west?  Not sure.  Anyhow, there is much heavenly activity happening in these verses.  Entire nations mourning, Angles with loud trumpets.   Notice Jesus says THEY will see him coming in the clouds.  Who are they?  The nations of the earth who mourn.  Also, who are the elect?  You said in a previous post...

The elect can mean Jesus specifically. (Isa 42:1-9)
Can also mean the Nation of Israel specifically (Isa 45:2-4)
And, can refer to the total some of all whom God has chosen, in relationship to Christ. (2 Pet 1:10, Eph 1:4-5,11)

From this there are only 2 possibilities.  Either the Nation of Israel, (144,000?) or those who believe in christ.  Not clear on if this is the rapture or not, but I would agree to the possibility.


Here Jesus switches gears....

32  "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.
33  Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.
34  I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

When you see all these things know that IT is near, right at the door.  What is near?  The end of the age?  The coming of the son of man?  I believe he means the coming of the son of man, as he continues that theme for next verse or two. edit #2  Clearly he says all the things he just spoke of will happen...so I guess it answers both questions


35  Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
36  "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

No one knows, not even the Son!

37  As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
38  For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;
39  and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.


What I find interesting here is the description of the times of Noah.   Eating, drinking, marrying, and that they had no clue about what was about to happen.   During the tribulation period...the greatest time of distress ever known to man from the beginning of the earth till now....Somehow I can't imagine people partying during those days.  I suppose its possible, but Rev describes people hiding away in the Rocks, and calling for death and so forth.  Never, the less, Jesus describes a complacent world at the coming of the son of man, going about their everyday lives and wickedness.  Not a world in terror that is greater than anything ever seen before.

Jesus continues speaking about the coming of the Son of man.

Matt 24:40-51
40  Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.
41  Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

Here again, people are carrying about their business, just as Jesus had described in the prior verses.  Not hiding in rocks from terror and wrath.

42  "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.

Therefore-(accordingly!)  Because all will seem normal in the world.  (not greater distress as never seen before)  Keep watch, because we do not know when the Lord will return.

A notworthy warning.  We are to watch for the signs, because it could happen at any time.   Here again I must say, that one could view this passage differently.  Like I said before, I am no theologen.  But IMHO I can see evidence in this very passage that the rapture could happen at any time.  Remember Jesus himself didn't even know when it was going to happen, only the father, and he will send his son when HE is good and ready.   However, Jesus gives us signs and warnings of both these events.  And we should try to understand with the help of the holy spirit, what he means by these things.

Grace and Peace!

[2nd Timothy]

28  Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

Currious verse.  Actually I have read this passage many time and this is the first time it has caught my attention.  What carcasses?  Could this be the carcusses of those raptured?  I don't know for sure but it is a thought.  If that is the case, it certainly adds fuel to the pre-trib view.  Another possibility is that his coming will kill the many wicked.  Either way, this is an interesting verse.

Quick note and revision.....  Clearly in other places in scripture it says we will changed...implying our current bodies will change.  So my idea about the carcasses cannot be correct here.  However, when the rapture takes place, there is no question the immediate absense of these people will cause numerous deaths and confusion all over the earth.  Vacated vehicles such as planes, train, cars etc etc.  Again just thoughts.

Apologies!  

[2nd Timothy]

It is clear to me, this is not a rapture from the preceding verses, the word that connects the follwoing verses to 40-42, is the word "THEN" begining verse 40, I see you have left this word out, but it is the word # 5119, tote tot'-eh, - ie; at the time that, and it, should not overlooked.

Here are the verses preceding 40-42;

36  But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37  But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

This not a rapture, but rather judgement on the earth, it sounds like the Day of the Lord a Day of Wrath according to Zepheniah 1:14-15.

I guess the NIV version leaves out the word then....lets look at the KJV.


Matt 24:37-42
37  But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40  Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41  Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42  Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
(KJV)

Still reads the same to me.  He is talking about how things will be before his return.  THEN?  I don't follow you here.  Watch therefore:  still speaking of his return right after he tells of the workers in the field.   Someone is taken at his coming.  Which one is taken?  He says in Noahs day the wicked were taken away by the flood...(this stands to reason as Noah was to remain on the earth, not to be with the Lord for evermore).   Believers today are told that we will be changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air when he returns pre or post.  We are not waiting for the Lord to remove the wicked, we are waiting for him to remove us and bring us to him at his return.   Relating Noah's time to the coming of the Son seems focus on how people will be behaving; eating, drinking, and marrying. They didn't know until it was too late. So shall be the coming of the Son of Man.  Those who arent watching.  THEN 2 shall be in the field, one taken the other left?   I guess it depends on how much comparison you give between Noahs wicked being taken, and Christ Church being retrieved.  To me the emphasis seem to be on the nature of their behaviour.  Not the nature of what "taking" is.  If the wicked are taken away, and the believers are then caught up in the air, then no one is left in the field at all?  I don't see this.  Again whether this is pre or post coming, believers are caught up in the air.  This doesn't make sense to say the wicked are taken and we are left in the field.


1Thes 4:16-17
16  For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17  After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
(NIV)

I'm not sure I can see this as the wicked is taken.  But thats just me.  

[2nd Timothy]

I think I'm caught up now...don't believe I missed any questions....sorry if I have.   Lets try to take these one point, or post at a time.  Took me nearly all day to get to all this.  Fair enough?

Grace and Peace!

[Petro]

Lets stick to one point or post at a time....we are getting way ahead here.

I don't see, how you tie, Joseph's dream to the woman of Rev 12, it sounds disjointed with no clear connection, between the moon being personified as a woman at all with the woman of Rev 12.

The moon is not the woman of Revelation.  Gen shows where the moon represents the mother of Israel.  The woman of Revelation is figurative, a vision!

2d Tim,

One point at a time, sounds great, to me.

Here is what you posted at reply#30;

The moon is the mother, the sun is the father, and the 11 stars are his 11 brothers not including himself.  Sounds to me like the 12 tribes of Israel.

Now using your reasoning in your reply herein, where you said;


"The moon is not the woman of Revelation.  Gen shows where the moon represents the mother of Israel.  The woman of Revelation is figurative, a vision!"

Eve at Gen 3, was not the mother of Israel...I trust this is not who you are refering to??

And comparing this figurative language you say is spoken herein, refering to Israel, why can't..... "Jerusalem the mother of us all" of Gal 4:26, be that woman?

Afterall, the language is figurative in both passages....

When we read Gal 4:17, we read the following:

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


In speaking of "the remnant of her seed", this is speaking of the seed of the woman at Gen 3, however, it is not speaking of Jesus, since it says  " the remnant", while this can refer to the Nation of Israel, it also could refer to anyone who is in the faith at this time, which could be considered a remnant, which have the testimony of Jesus Christ, during the time period fulfilling the vision.

Adam at Gen 3, typifies the last Adam of 1 Cor 15:45.

Is there a reason why Eve cannot typify Jerusalem the mother of us all.  

This Jerusalem at Gal 4:26, not only brought the man child but is presently continuing to bring forth children and will continue until the end, if there is a rapture before the coming of John's vision herein at Jhn 12:5, it can be easily understood, why these at verse 17, are refered to as the "remnant".

At any rate, I can see we are getting off track with this discussion, from the original topic of the thread.

Now, after having said all this I don't discount, altogether that these verses could very well be speaking of Israel, almost all of us believe this, because we have been taught it, and commentaries teach it, I want to see how you tie together what you have stated.

If the woman is not the monn, then please clarify yourself..concerning the woman/moon comment.


Blessings,

Petrp

[2nd Timothy]

And comparing this figurative language you say is spoken herein, refering to Israel, why can't..... "Jerusalem the mother of us all" of Gal 4:26, be that woman?

This apears to make sense.  Israel, Jerusalem.  

In speaking of "the remnant of her seed", this is speaking of the seed of the woman at Gen 3, however, it is not speaking of Jesus, since it says  " the remnant", while this can refer to the Nation of Israel, it also could refer to anyone who is in the faith at this time, which could be considered a remnant, which have the testimony of Jesus Christ, during the time period fulfilling the vision.

Adam at Gen 3, typifies the last Adam of 1 Cor 15:45.

Is there a reason why Eve cannot typify Jerusalem the mother of us all.

I can see how one would read this.   However, to make Eve the woman in Rev 12 you must explain the rest of what we know about her, from Johns vision.  Israel, or Jerusalem as you say is a much better fit than Eve.  Its not easy to make Eve the Woman, if you take into consideration the WHOLE vision of the Woman.

Now, after having said all this I don't discount, altogether that these verses could very well be speaking of Israel, almost all of us believe this, because we have been taught it, and commentaries teach it, I want to see how you tie together what you have stated.

Actually, most commentaries I have seen try to make the Woman the Church.   I certainly do not hold this view.  As best I can, I have already stated the reasons for my view.  While I admit I could be wrong, I can only go by how John describes the entire vision, and try to understand what he saw.  In my view, Eve does not fit.  But I wont force others to deny that.

If the woman is not the monn, then please clarify yourself..concerning the woman/moon comment.

The woman of Revelation IS NOT the moon.    She can't be the woman with herself under her own feet.  Sorry if my post implied this....not what I was saying at all.

Joseph's dream in Genesis 37:9  explains the same symbols.  The symbols of HIS dream describe, the Sun as HIS father, the Moon as HIS mother, and the 11 stars as HIS bothers (not including himself) equals 12 stars.   No where does Gen or Rev refer to each other regarding thes symbols.  However, one cannot deny that the same family Joseph's dream describes were the forefathers of the the 12 tribes of Israel.  Disjointed?, forced into Rev 12?  No, just an observation!  I could be wrong.   But when trying to understand a difficult vision from the Lord, this evidence from HIS own word should not be overlooked.  And when taken as one part, with other clues we are given in Rev 12, it does seem to lend to who the Woman in question is.

Grace and Peace!

[Petro]

Well  you can see when one starts spiritualizing, or using types, on can wind up in left field, this can be continued to be expanded, using Jerusalem as the mother, the man child the body of Christ, the apsotles as the eleven, not including Jesus himself, afterall there is no denying He was the first Apostle sent by God the Father.

It just can turn into a  can of worms, and one can makle it say what ever one wants to; ... proving it is another matter.

Well we have strayed from the original discussion of the pre trib rapture.

I would like to stay on this subject as, I think we can get some truth out of what has been said.

I had indicated that I sided with the Pre trib position, not to sure about that since I have identified at leats five errors, which have yet to be explained, I'll have to go back and see, but I believe I have pointed out two of them, and began expanding on one of them.

Anyhow, what I want to say is, that I do believe in a rapture but, I am of the opinion, it is netiher pre nor mid, so I call it pre wrath, not in the original sense of the word when coined since that one had serious problems.  But i use the term in general to mean exactly what it says.

Pre Wrath, is it emminent, I believe it is!


Blessings,

Ptero