Faith and works coincide

[pnotc]

Petro-

Your verse says nothing about people getting a measure of faith from God, only their gifts.  And that varies according to their faith.  Their.  Possesive - indicates ownership or belonging.  

What other verses you got to prove your point on faith being given to everyone in different amounts?

[ollie]

I don't think I ever heard anyone argue that faith and works go together however works and salvation do not.  As Petro pointed out are works for Christ shall be judged and the man shall be saved.  There is no getting around this verse and many others that salvation is through faith AND NOT OF WORKS LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST.

Why people want to get all religious about it I can't fully figure out aside from man always wanting to prove that he's worth something.

Take care,
Jason

Thank You Jason,

And this is an amazing revelation, or it should be at leats for them that agree, one must have works to obtain salvation.

The opening post, states;

"To have faith, you must also have good works. To have good
works, you must also have faith. Faith without works is as
vain as having works, but no faith."

So, my question stands, can anyone answer the question scripture asks??

James 2:14
"What doth it profit a man, my brethen, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?"

Petro

Does James answer His question in verse 17?

James 2:17.  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.


Forgive my redundancy as I believe this verse was given by Sonofaslan in another reply.

However it seems to answer the question James asks. What do you think?

Many times when a bible author asks a question, the answer will be given in the next few verses. That is why all preceding and postceding verses should be studied to get the true context of what the author is saying, when studying the Bible.
Sometimes one must go to other books, chapters and verses on a given subject to get the thought intended.

[Petro]

Ollie,

Since this passage is answering the question, from the human perspectice, the answer is yes.

In the eyes of man, you must show forth tangible works, in order to have credibility, before the eyes of other men, but not before God.

If you care you can see my explanation to SonofAslan, at my Post "Open Theism..." this forum, at reply #23.

Two verses, quoted are;

Rom3:28. Rom 4:2.

James, speaks of certain works Abraham performed, when he offered up Isaac, being tested of God, in the contyext of the passage, this is what evidenced his faith in God, and show forth a tangible work, for men to see, and admire.

At Hebrews 11:11 and 17, scripture tells us, he obeyed, and this is the key today, to coming to God.

At Gen 15:6, the scripture says Abram "And he believed in the LORD;and He counted it to him for righteousness."

At Gen 17:1-22, God again, appears to Abram, establishes His covenant with him, and renames him to Abraham (father of a mulitude), giving him the sign of circumscision.

This was a conditional covenant based on Abrahams obedience, and when God tested him, at Gen 22:16-17, He (God, swore the oath), found in Heb 6:14  " Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee."
Sealing the conditional covenant into an unconditional covenant.

This was not based on Abrahams, physical motions of climbing the mountain to sacrifice Isaac, but in his faith in God;

Note Heb 11:17-19;    again;


By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son.
Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

This why, Paul at Rom 4 states;

1  What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2  For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3  For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Pretty simple and straighforward..


Blessings,

Petro

 

[Petro]

Petro-

Your verse says nothing about people getting a measure of faith from God, only their gifts.  And that varies according to their faith.  Their.  Possesive - indicates ownership or belonging.  

What other verses you got to prove your point on faith being given to everyone in different amounts?

pnotc,

You seem to be in the dark about this, let's just leave it there..



Petro

[ollie]

Ollie,

Since this passage is answering the question, from the human perspectice, the answer is yes.

In the eyes of man, you must show forth tangible works, in order to have credibility, before the eyes of other men, but not before God.

If you care you can see my explanation to SonofAslan, at my Post "Open Theism..." this forum, at reply #23.

Two verses, quoted are;

Rom3:28. Rom 4:2.

James, speaks of certain works Abraham performed, when he offered up Isaac, being tested of God, in the contyext of the passage, this is what evidenced his faith in God, and show forth a tangible work, for men to see, and admire.

At Hebrews 11:11 and 17, scripture tells us, he obeyed, and this is the key today, to coming to God.

At Gen 15:6, the scripture says Abram "And he believed in the LORD;and He counted it to him for righteousness."

At Gen 17:1-22, God again, appears to Abram, establishes His covenant with him, and renames him to Abraham (father of a mulitude), giving him the sign of circumscision.

This was a conditional covenant based on Abrahams obedience, and when God tested him, at Gen 22:16-17, He (God, swore the oath), found in Heb 6:14  " Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee."
Sealing the conditional covenant into an unconditional covenant.

This was not based on Abrahams, physical motions of climbing the mountain to sacrifice Isaac, but in his faith in God;

Note Heb 11:17-19;    again;


By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son.
Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

This why, Paul at Rom 4 states;

1  What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2  For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3  For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Pretty simple and straighforward..


Blessings,

Petro

 

Saved through faith, rewarded according to work.

1 Corinthians 3:13.  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
 14.  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
 15.  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
 

[Durango]

Luke 7:50
Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–

So, my question stands, can anyone answer the question scripture asks??

James 2:14
"What doth it profit a man, my brethen, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?"

Petro

Just a couple of thoughts come to mind here, for instance what did Jesus say about faith?

Luke 7:50
Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Now let's look at Luke 23:39 - 43

39   And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40   But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41   And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42   And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43   And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Now I ask you, in both instances, show me where these people were required to show good works in order to be saved?  Were they both not saved by their faith?  

Let’s now look at Acts 16

25About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the other prisoners were listening to them.
26Suddenly there was such a violent earthquake that the foundations of the prison were shaken. At once all the prison doors flew open, and everybody's chains came loose.
 27The jailer woke up, and when he saw the prison doors open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself because he thought the prisoners had escaped.
28But Paul shouted, "Don't harm yourself! We are all here!"
29The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas.
30He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—

Once again, no mention of good works being a requirement to be saved.

Now if we move on to Ephesians 2 we will read:

1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

In conclusion, we receive Faith and Salvation through the Grace of God.  Our good works are a result of the new life we come to know after we receive this Grace from the Lord.  As we see in Ephesians 2:10, we are created anew “in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do”.

So our good works are an outpouring of our faith, prepared in advance for us by God.  

Therefore, Salvation, Faith and good works all come from the Grace of God.
 

  Just my humble thoughts,

   Durango

[Ambassador4Christ]

"To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."Romans 4:5  

[Ambassador4Christ]

First we must understand the basis of our salvation. Is salvation based on what we do?

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

These scriptures, and countless others, make it clear that salvation is not based on what we do for God. In fact, it is just the opposite. Our salvation is based on what God did for us (Rom 5:8; 1 Cor 15:3,4; 2 Cor 5:21).

Since we can't do anything to be saved, how can we be expected to do anything to stay saved? The scriptures teach that we are secure in Christ and that nothing, not even our own unbelief, can separate us from the love of God once we have trusted in Christ's sacrifice for our sin. (Rom 8:33-39; Phil 1:6; 2 Tim 2:11-13)  

[Durango]

AMEN!  Exactly my point.

Durango

[Ambassador4Christ]

AMEN!  Exactly my point.

Durango

DITTO

[ollie]

Are doing His commandments considered work?
Is doing something necessary to have the right to the tree of life and entrance through the gates into the city, ( New Jerusalem)?



 Revelation 22:14.  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

[Ambassador4Christ]

Are doing His commandments considered work?
Is doing something necessary to have the right to the tree of life and entrance through the gates into the city, ( New Jerusalem)?



 Revelation 22:14.  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Once again: Since we can't do anything to be saved, how can we be expected to do anything to stay saved? The scriptures teach that we are secure in Christ and that nothing, not even our own unbelief, can separate us from the love of God once we have trusted in Christ's sacrifice for our sin. (Rom 8:33-39; Phil 1:6; 2 Tim 2:11-13)  

[ollie]

Revelation 2:1. Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
 2.  I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
 3.  And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
 4.  Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
 5.  Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
 6.  But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
 7.  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
 8.  And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
 9.  I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
 10.  Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
 11.  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
 12.  And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
 13.  I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
 14.  But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
 15.  So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
 16.  Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
 17.  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
 18.  And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
 19.  I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
 20.  Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
 21.  And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
 22.  Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
 23.  And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
 24.  But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
 25.  But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
 26. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
 27.  And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
 28.  And I will give him the morning star.
 29.  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

[ollie]

Revelation 3

 1.  And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
 2.  Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
 3.  Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
 4.  Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
 5. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
 6.  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
 7.  And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
 8.  I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
 9.  Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
 10.  Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
 11.  Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
 12. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
 13.  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
 14.  And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; these things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
 15. I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
 16.  So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
 17.  Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
 18.  I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
 19.  As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
 20.  Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
 21.  To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
 22.  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

[Petro]

Ollie,

So what are the commandments, which are to obeyed, in order to enter, the city and have right to the treee of life??

or,  if you cannot answer this;

What is the labor or work in the verses, you have shared, needed to be done.

Petro