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Realize that you can not base everything entirely on faith. You
must have faith, but also good works.  James 2 sums it up
best.




To have faith, you must also have good works. To have good
works, you must also have faith. Faith without works is as
vain as having works, but no faith.

God bless you all.  ;D
 

Titus is a nice book on works..."good deeds"

Ah yes, Titus.  ;D

EPHESIANS 2:10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to DO GOOD WORKS, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Matthew 5:16  Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

ACTS 26:19 I preached first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and through Judea, and also to the Gentiles that all must forsake their sins and turn to God and prove their repentence by doing good deeds

II TlMOTHY 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, SO THAT the man of Good may be thoroughly equipped for every GOOD WORK.

I JOHN 3:16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children let us not love in words or tongue but with ACTIONS and truth.

I JOHN 3:23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to LOVE one another as he commanded us.

MATT. 25:31-45 When the Son of Man comes in his glory....He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.....Then he will say to those on his left,'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil & his angels. FOR I WAS HUNGRY & YOU GAVE ME NOTHING TO EAT, I WAS THIRSTY & YOU GAVE ME NOTHING TO DRINK, I WAS A STRANGER & YOU DID NOT INVITE ME IN, I NEEDED CLOTHES AND YOU DID NOT CLOTHE ME, I WAS SICK AND IN PRISON, AND YOU DID-- NOT LOOK AFTER ME.". "Whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

I JOHN 2:3-6 We know that we have come to KNOW him if we OBEY his commands. The man who SAYS "I know God", but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: WHOEVER CLAIMS TO LIVE IN HIM MUST WALK AS JESUS DID.

I JOHN 3:24 Those who OBEY his commands live in him, and he in them.

I JOHN 5:3 For this is the love of God, to OBEY his commands. And his commands are not burdensome.

ACTS 5:32   We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God gives to those who OBEY him.

HEBREWS 5:9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who OBEY Him the source of salvation.

I PETER 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

II THESSALONIANS 1:8 He will punish those who do not KNOW God and Do not OBEY the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power .......

JOHN 14:23 Jesus replied, " If anyone loves me, he will OBEY my teaching.
21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me.

Raphu, Symphony, Seven Tides:
Amen!

2 Corinthians 5:9.  Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
 10.  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

So, what is the answer to the question;


James 2:14
"What doth it profit a man, my brethen, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?"

Please note; Ollies verses; and here I add these little verses;

1 Coir 3
11  For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12  Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Is there anyone here who would argue,  this is not a Christians works,  being judged.

(Not speaking of works to be saved, this is obvious)

If anyone appears at the Judgement Seat of Christ, (not to be confused with the white throne judgement) do the works being judged, concern his salvation??

NO.....

According to these verses,  this man's works, regardless of whether or not all his works burn or not, "he him self shall be saved"

The very fact he appears at the judgement seat of Christ,   is evidence he is saved.

Can any of you all, reconcile your thoughts on this matter..

Anyone can answer??  This is not directed at anyone of you all.



Petro

I don't think I ever heard anyone argue that faith and works go together however works and salvation do not.  As Petro pointed out our works for Christ shall be judged and the man shall be saved.  There is no getting around this verse and many others that salvation is through faith AND NOT OF WORKS LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST.

Why people want to get all religious about it I can't fully figure out aside from man always wanting to prove that he's worth something.

Take care,
Jason

Ok, Petro, I didn’t understand how this was relevant in your other thread, as it didn’t seem to fit in with our discussion. I will answer your question here though, since now I see what you were looking for. James says clearly we are justified by our works and not by faith alone. What does it mean to be justified by our works? Can we be saved without being justified?

1 Cor 3 is irrelevant.  Why? Because there are other possibilities. No one says every single work we do has to be absolutely perfect. Let's accept the interpretation (which seems clear, but isn't necessarily so) that when it says "the man shall be saved, yet as through fire" means that the man shall still attain the Kingdom of God.

Let’s look at this passage. The man who “suffers loss”: is this a man who has no good works or is this a man who has some good works (gold, rubies, etc.) and some bad works (straw,  stubble, etc.)?

I would suggest that what this passage is talking about is someone who HAS good works through faith, but yet not every work they have is good. We all have a plethora of works, good and bad. The good works will be refined by fire, and the good works will grant us rewards, and the bad works will cause us to lose the reward we would have received if the work had been good. And therefore, we shall suffer loss (of the potential reward) while still attaining the kingdom.

Everyone who is “saved” has good works. If they do not, they aren’t saved. This doesn’t mean we don’t have bad works too, and these works will cause us to suffer loss. This is what James says. We are justified by our works  and not by faith alone.

Your mistake is in interpreting the Corinthians passage to be all or nothing. Either it is all good works or all bad works. That is neither the case nor necessarily the case.

Works play a role in our salvation. Jesus James and all of Scripture are clear about that.  But works are not what save us. It is not a scale and if we have more good works than bad works, we're in. Faith and works cannot be separated. To do so renders both impotent.

Thank You Jason,

And this is an amazing revelation, or it should be at leats for them that agree, one must have works to obtain salvation.

The opening post, states;

"To have faith, you must also have good works. To have good
works, you must also have faith. Faith without works is as
vain as having works, but no faith."

So, my question stands, can anyone answer the question scripture asks??

James 2:14
"What doth it profit a man, my brethen, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?"

Petro

I answered your question, Petro.

The answer to your question re: James is that faith without works saves no one. So the answer is no, his faith cannot save him. This is exactly the same answer James gives. faith without works is dead.

Well, there you go, Is there anyone else that wants to take another wild guess at the answer..??




Petro

LOL that's not a 'wild guess". That is he exact same answer James gives.

You're not really going to claim that a faith that is dead can save someone, are you?

No I am, simply going to say that, some receive a little bit of faith, while others a whole lot of faith it is only according to measure of the gift of faith given by God.

And at this level, some can't even accept that God has saved them, without them having to do something for the free gift of eternal life, its almost insulting to the Spirit of Grace as I see it.

But here allow me to give you a verse.

Rom 12
3  For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4  For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5  So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6  Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;


But God Bless, as you continue to study His word

Petro

Petro-

Your verse says nothing about people getting a measure of faith from God, only their gifts.  And that varies according to their faith.  Their.  Possesive - indicates ownership or belonging.  

What other verses you got to prove your point on faith being given to everyone in different amounts?

Does James answer His question in verse 17?

James 2:17.  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.


Forgive my redundancy as I believe this verse was given by Sonofaslan in another reply.

However it seems to answer the question James asks. What do you think?

Many times when a bible author asks a question, the answer will be given in the next few verses. That is why all preceding and postceding verses should be studied to get the true context of what the author is saying, when studying the Bible.
Sometimes one must go to other books, chapters and verses on a given subject to get the thought intended.

Ollie,

Since this passage is answering the question, from the human perspectice, the answer is yes.

In the eyes of man, you must show forth tangible works, in order to have credibility, before the eyes of other men, but not before God.

If you care you can see my explanation to SonofAslan, at my Post "Open Theism..." this forum, at reply #23.

Two verses, quoted are;

Rom3:28. Rom 4:2.

James, speaks of certain works Abraham performed, when he offered up Isaac, being tested of God, in the contyext of the passage, this is what evidenced his faith in God, and show forth a tangible work, for men to see, and admire.

At Hebrews 11:11 and 17, scripture tells us, he obeyed, and this is the key today, to coming to God.

At Gen 15:6, the scripture says Abram "And he believed in the LORD;and He counted it to him for righteousness."

At Gen 17:1-22, God again, appears to Abram, establishes His covenant with him, and renames him to Abraham (father of a mulitude), giving him the sign of circumscision.

This was a conditional covenant based on Abrahams obedience, and when God tested him, at Gen 22:16-17, He (God, swore the oath), found in Heb 6:14  " Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee."
Sealing the conditional covenant into an unconditional covenant.

This was not based on Abrahams, physical motions of climbing the mountain to sacrifice Isaac, but in his faith in God;

Note Heb 11:17-19;    again;


By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son.
Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

This why, Paul at Rom 4 states;

1  What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2  For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3  For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Pretty simple and straighforward..


Blessings,

Petro

 

pnotc,

You seem to be in the dark about this, let's just leave it there..



Petro

Saved through faith, rewarded according to work.

1 Corinthians 3:13.  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
 14.  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
 15.  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
 

Luke 7:50
Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–

"To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."Romans 4:5  ;D

First we must understand the basis of our salvation. Is salvation based on what we do?

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

These scriptures, and countless others, make it clear that salvation is not based on what we do for God. In fact, it is just the opposite. Our salvation is based on what God did for us (Rom 5:8; 1 Cor 15:3,4; 2 Cor 5:21).

Since we can't do anything to be saved, how can we be expected to do anything to stay saved? The scriptures teach that we are secure in Christ and that nothing, not even our own unbelief, can separate us from the love of God once we have trusted in Christ's sacrifice for our sin. (Rom 8:33-39; Phil 1:6; 2 Tim 2:11-13)  ;D

AMEN!  Exactly my point.

Durango

DITTO ;D

Are doing His commandments considered work?
Is doing something necessary to have the right to the tree of life and entrance through the gates into the city, ( New Jerusalem)?



 Revelation 22:14.  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Once again: Since we can't do anything to be saved, how can we be expected to do anything to stay saved? The scriptures teach that we are secure in Christ and that nothing, not even our own unbelief, can separate us from the love of God once we have trusted in Christ's sacrifice for our sin. (Rom 8:33-39; Phil 1:6; 2 Tim 2:11-13)  ;D

Revelation 2:1. Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
 2.  I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
 3.  And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
 4.  Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
 5.  Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
 6.  But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
 7.  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
 8.  And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
 9.  I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
 10.  Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
 11.  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
 12.  And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
 13.  I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
 14.  But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
 15.  So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
 16.  Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
 17.  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
 18.  And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
 19.  I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
 20.  Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
 21.  And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
 22.  Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
 23.  And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
 24.  But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
 25.  But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
 26. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
 27.  And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
 28.  And I will give him the morning star.
 29.  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 3

 1.  And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
 2.  Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
 3.  Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
 4.  Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
 5. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
 6.  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
 7.  And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
 8.  I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
 9.  Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
 10.  Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
 11.  Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
 12. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
 13.  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
 14.  And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; these things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
 15. I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
 16.  So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
 17.  Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
 18.  I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
 19.  As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
 20.  Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
 21.  To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
 22.  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Ollie,

So what are the commandments, which are to obeyed, in order to enter, the city and have right to the treee of life??

or,  if you cannot answer this;

What is the labor or work in the verses, you have shared, needed to be done.

Petro

I agree A4C

Brother Love :)

I will not belinger what others have more accurately stated concerning works based salvation, but will add this thought.  What works would God consider acceptable for salvation?  Obedience to His commands?  Were we to be ever obedient, which by our very selfish nature and motivation is not possible, why do we believe that that obedience would gain favor with God?  Why do I say this?  Consider this:


As a believer, a saved and redeemed child of God, according to this passage, my prayers to my heavenly Father are not "as I ought."  I do not pray as I should.  My prayers are unacceptable! My prayers!  His own adopted sons prayers are unacceptable.  It is only with the intercession of the indwelt Holy Spirit that my prayers are made acceptable to my heavenly Father!  If that be so, then how do I suppose I will ever work myself into a redemptive acceptability?  Just a thought...

Good, Thanks

Brother Love :)

Hi Petro,

That is my question also. The Bible teaches saved by faith, rewarded according to works.
So what is John refering to when He relates Christ's words on doing commandments and works? These which must be done to apparently be in the book of Life and gain access to the New Jerusalem?

Ollie

Petro,
Some thoughts on your question and mine.


The work of faith is the work refered to in Revelation 2 and 3 inn Christ's messages to the seven churches. Christ goes into more detail on this work of faith in the individual messages.

1 Thessalonians1:3.  Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father

2 Thessalonians 1:11.  Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
 12.  That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.


Christ's words and doctrine are the commandments to be done.

John 14:23.  Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Commandments were given to the Apostles through the Holy Ghost which were given to first century people by word, and  to us in their writings.

Acts 1:2.  Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

1 Corinthians 14:37.  If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.


Again God's people are to keep His word. His words are the commandments.

1 John 2:3.  And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
 4.  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
 5.  But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
 6.  He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.


 1 John3:22.  And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
 23.  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
 24.  And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.:


1 John 5:1.  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
 2. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
 3.  For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
 4.  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
 5.  Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


 2 John 1:5.  And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
 6.  And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.


 Revelation 12:17.  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Revelation 14:12.  Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
 
Jesus' words and the words of the inspired writers are the commandments to do and keep.
The work of faith is that which justifies Christians before God and will allow Christians into that final rest.

Ollie,

you said;


None of the verses, you quoted above are tied to the final sentence , which I posted above for you.

Because they are based on obedience, due to already being saved.

Do you see, the "faith" that justifies, as a gift from God??


Rom 10
17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Faith comes by the hearing of Gods word.

And yet faith cannot be received unless it is given from above, according to Jesus;  He said;

Mk 4
23  ..................  If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
24  And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
25  For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

So then the faith that justifies, is it really a work produced by man or God??

Consider this verse before you answer this question.

Jhn 6
26  Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27  Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28  Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Is the faith necessary to believe, a gift of God??

and secondly??

Is the work of faith a work of man,  or of God, who works in those whom God elects to believe, what man cannot believe , on his own,..........

without God working in him, to "will and do of God's own pleasure"??

Phil 2
13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

This is hard to accept, isn't it??

Blessings,

Petro

Faith does not keep us from difficualties, Faith gets us through the difficulties

Brother Love :)

Faith is the work of God. It is His will that one work His work.

 John 6:8.  Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
 29.  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Jesus Said:

"To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."Romans 4:5  

Brother Love :)

In Roman's 4:5, is Paul refering to God's work? If he is we have a contradiction and God's word is not contradictory! What work is Paul refering to so that this verse does not contradict John 6:8
In John 6 isn't Jesus refering to the work of God?

Jesus Said:

John 6:8.  Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29.  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


Jesus Said:

"To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."Romans 4:5  

"B-E-L-I-E-V-E"  ;D

A sinner can be brought into right relationship to God (that is, justified, made fit for heaven) by penitently BELIEVING “the record of God’s son.” See 1 John 5:1-13). No sinner has ever been justified by works, for “the grace of God that bringeth salvation” is opposed to works for salvation, even as Romans 11:6 declares, “IF BY GRACE then is it NO MORE OF WORKS, otherwise grace is no more grace…”God the Father has already provided a sufficient life and sacrifice for our sins through His Son Jesus Christ, whom He has raised from the dead. See 1 Peter 2:22-24; 1 Cor. 15:1-5; 2 Cor. 5:21. Here, then, is God’s plan for saving or JUSTIFYING sinners: “This is the work of (singular) of God, that ye BELIEVE on Him Whom He hath sent.” – John 6:29. For “to him that WORKETH NOT, but BELIVETH on Him that justifieth the ungodly, HIS FAITH is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness WITHOUT WORKS.” – Rom. 4:5-6. “For by GRACE are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourself, it is THE GIFT OF GOD: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boars.” – Eph. 2:8-9. Therefore, being JUSTIFIED (declared right) BY FAITH, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”—Rom. 5:1.

 ;D

1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.



 1 Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Ephesians 2:4-10
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained  that we should walk in them.[/u]

Matthew 16:24-28
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.[/b]

Colossians 3:23
And whatsoever YE DO, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; 24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. 25 But HE THAT DOETH WRONG shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons

Revelation 22:
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that DO his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Saved by faith, rewarded accordingly as ones works shall be,
blessed by doing His commandments and having right to the tree of life and allowed entry through the gates into the city, the New Jerusalem.

Hallelujah, what a saviour!

Ollie,

On reply #25, you gave us your take on this passage,;


You did good, though on your other posts..I totally concurr with them, except for Reply #47, you are just simply presuming Rev 22:14, reads according to your take on it.

However you do greatly error here..........the doing (work) emphasized, is not for the right, to the tree of life , but evidence of having that right to access the tree of life by virtue of being an heir, of the promise by faith in Christ, and as we have already established,   that faith was a gift by the Grace of God.

Keeping the commandments, is not work at all....it is a privilige... wouldn't you agree??



Little by little, were getting to the truth, that God may be glorified in the end;

Read the margin, of your bible, and you will find the preferreed reading for this verse in the portion you rely for your faith, works,  version of what you keep trying to emphasize.

Its coming, little by little, word by word, precept upon precept, its like pulling teeth, but I know we are making progress, here a little and there a little.

The preferred reading for ;

14  Blessed are they that do his commandments,.....

is,

14  Blessed are those who wash their robes,  .........

there is no need for me, to expound this for you, since if you take the time to research it, you will, understand why the different translation, and it will be a blessing to you..cause you will have found it on your own.

PS  Even the Greek English Lexicon/Interlinear, reads "who wash their robes" at the margin.. as the preferred reading, of this translation.

Neither reading teaches salvation by works but rather works as the fruit and proof of salvation.

Only true believers have access to the tree of life and to the eternal city.


Praise Him..Amen??

Petro

Amen

Brother Love :)

I am with you Brother, Amen


Brother Love :)

A4C, Bro Love,  I concur, Amen

Jesus made it clear;

Jhn 12
43  He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.

And the Apostle wraps it up, by saying:

Phil 1
29  For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

I post these things, pointing them out (dissecting them as asaph, says, for the sake of my weak brethern, trusting that the scriptures will become their focus and not their works)

God Bless,

Petro

The work of faith I quoted was that of the Thessalonian church. Paul in addressing the faithful there refered to it as "your work of faith". The work of course being the work of God.


Isn't that the point?

It is the work of God and certainly justifies as God wills. The gift is salvation through God's grace.


God's whole plan of redemption and salvation through Jesus Christ is given from HIm.


 I cannot reply on this until I studied it in the context of what preceding and postceding verses have to say.

Faith is the work of God.

"Believe on Him whom He hath sent." This is "the work of God".

No! The faith that believes receives the gift of God, which is salvation through Jesus Christ because of God's grace.

God does not elect one to believe, but rather believing elects one to God.

God is present through His Holy Spirit and working in individuals when His will and work is being obeyed and done in that individual. The individual gives himself completely to God and God works through him with His work known through His word which was given by the Holy Spirit.

No!


And to you,
Ollie

God Bless you Brother  ;D

Ollie,

It is a given fact that those whom believe God, are the elect, this is undeniable.

On the other hand, the elect are those, whom the angel referred to when he said to Joseph;

Mat 1
21  .................and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

And, who are his people except them who are given unto Him, of the Father.

you said;


I don't know what you mean by this.., but one can see clearly that for the sake of Christ, even to believe on HIM, is given on the behalf of Christ.

Phil 1
29  For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for his sake;

And finally, Paul says this about the elect of Christ;

Tituts 1
1  Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2 Th 2
13  ................................, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

I have focused in on the verses, which show, without a shadow of a  doubt, that the elect have been chosen by Grace, thru faith, which is a workd and gift of God, who gives and equips every believer in Him, with everything He needs to be saved, even the belief which is necessary to apprehend the truth.

That God, might be glorified in all things..



Amen??


God Bless,

Petro

I have focused in on the verses, which show, without a shadow of a  doubt, that the elect have been chosen by Grace, thru faith, which is a workd and gift of God, who gives and equips every believer in Him, with everything He needs to be saved, even the belief which is necessary to apprehend the truth.

That God, might be glorified in all things..



Amen??


God Bless,

Petro
---------------------------------------------

YES!!!! Amen

Brother Love :)

Hey Bro Love,

Sorry I got you and Wreck n Sow, confused on the other thread, sometimes it happens, when my right side of my brain, shuts down, anyhow I corrected that.

Actually, I find it disconcerting, that Christians, could confess Jesus, and in the same sentence,  reject His blood as covering all of their sins.

I actually amazes me.

Either the blood of Jesus, is sufficient to cover for all of ones sin, once and forever or not.

I thought this is what Christians are supposed to believe??

If He's blood is not sufficient to cover all of the Christians sins.  Then someone is not telling the truth.

And it is evident it is not Jesus.

Amazingly, they say, Jesus is their savior and died for their sins, but believe otherwise.

Since they make it clear, that if they sin, they can die the eternal death.  This teaching is not scriptural, but it affects the majority of those who claim to be Christians, today.

It is the greatest deception, and the teaching is right out of the pit, reminds me of Mat 13:22.  Thank God it is not possible.

This, Prevents them from living a victorious life, in the spirit.

It is quite sobering to see and understand and believe, that one didn't , better yet couldn't do anything to come to God of himself, because of the condition sin found him in; only when one sees himself completely helpless, and without hope, can these points be understood.

Deception is such, that people can actually believe they are known by Jesus, and that they even do works for Him, in His name no less, this is clear according Mat 7:21-23, and their end is that of all unbelievers.

This is the reason, why we need to share the Gospel even with them, who claim to be believers, but embrace what is not the truth of the Gosple, and allow themselves to be seduced by these who teach such things.

God Bless,

Petro

Hi Petro, good message Brother, AMEN!

Hey all

EPH.2  [8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:[9] Not of works,
lest any man should boast.[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I really dont understand. If you choose to leave off verse 10, will it come to pass as you stand before HIM on the last day that HE to will ignore it also? Maybe i just do not get it! Maybe you can pick and choose 1 line out of the bible and make a doctrine contrary to the rest of the WORD. But for those of us who believe the whole WORD of God, what are these good works that God has given us to walk in?

PSALM 78  [1] Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth.[2] I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:[3] Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us.
[4] We will not hide them from their children, shewing to the generation to come the praises of the LORD, and his strength, and his wonderful works that he hath done.[5] For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children:[6] That the generation to come might know them, even the children which should be born; who should arise and declare them to their children:[7] That they might set their hope in God, and not forget the works of God, but keep his commandments:[8] And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation; a generation that set not their heart aright, and whose spirit was not stedfast with God.[9] The children of Ephraim, being armed, and carrying bows, turned back in the day of battle.[10] They kept not the covenant of God, and refused to walk in his law;[11] And forgat his works, and his wonders that he had shewed them.

Who opened HIS mouth in a parable? Who established a testimony in Jacob? JESUS CHRIST.

That they might set their hope in God, and not forget the works of God, but keep his commandments
They kept not the covenant of God, and refused to walk in his law

THE WORKS OF GOD THAT WE SHOULD WALK IN
EPH.2 [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

St. Paul, in his epistle to the Romans, refers to those who
receive "the abundance of grace" and "the gift of righteous-
ness" (Rom. 5:17) which God in love bestows upon all who
trust in His Son for salvation.

The Bible declares that no man can ever stand uncon-
demned in the sight of God, the Judge of all, unless he re-
ceives righteousness as the gift of God’s grace.

Quoting from the Psalms, the Apostle says in Rom. 3:10;
"It is written, There is none righteous, no, not one." This is
why Paul pitied those who continued to go about "to estab-
lish their own righteousness" (Rom. 10:3). He knew that
their struggle was utterly futile, that they needed to be
saved (See Ver. 1).

Let us thank God that the Lord Jesus Christ took the
condemnation and judgment of our sins upon Himself at
Calvary so that His righteousness might be imputed to us
by grace through faith. Regarding Abraham’s justification
before God, the Apostle says: "What saith the Scripture?
Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for right-
eousness" (Rom. 4:3).

Abraham’s justification, of course, was based on the fact
that Christ was to die for sin, but Christ’s death is now
past; it is an historical fact. Thus righteousness is now
proclaimed through Christ and offered to all as a gift.
"While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Rom. 5:8).
"God hath made Him to be sin for us... that we might be
made the righteousness of God in Him" (II Cor. 5:21).

But we must receive this righteousness as a gift, for "to
him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the
ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Rom. 4:5).

But to him that worketh not but   beliveth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”  Thus salvation is “not of works”  but “unto good works” (Eph. 2:8-10).  Good works is the fruit, not the root.

Right On!

Brother Love :)

Wreck N Sow,

Amen, Jesus, is that prophet whom God told Moses, to tell Israel He would raise up for them from among His bretehrn, please Notice what God says;

Deut 18
17  And the LORD said unto me, ........................
18  I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Now listen carefully to what Jesus said;

Jhn 12
47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48  He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49  For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50  And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

To Nicodemus, Jesus, spoke these words;

Jhn 3
10  .............  , Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11  Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12  If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14  And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21  But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.








I believe verse 10, above, but;


What you have posted is not a verse; it is a verse you made up. Kind of like Ollie, there.

Good works,  is what God has ordained that we walk in them.

Not the works of Gods, that is his work.

Please Note;



Men came to Jesus, and asked Him;

Jhn 6
28  ........................... What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

And Jesus did say,

Jhn 14
12  He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

And then we read that faith is given, and then even the belief necessary to do gain faith, is given by God;

Gal 3
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


Phil1
29  For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him,but also to suffer for his sake;


Blessings,  

Petro

Ephesians 2:9-10 says it all.  

We are saved by grace through faith. In Christ we do good works which God has prepared for us to do.

Our works come out of our salvation. Our desire is no longer for self but to do God's will, our works are done because we are His not to become His. We will be known by the fruit we bear.

Amen

But to him that worketh not but  beliveth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”  Thus salvation is “not of works”  but “unto good works” (Eph. 2:8-10).  Good works is the fruit, not the root.

Another Amen

Brother Love :)

A4C,

In reviewing this thread, I see I didn't catch this post of yours.

Good post,

I did want to emphasize something that is missed, by those who want to go directly to Jesus, bypassing God.

Trust in Gods word begins by belieivng God first, "the record of God's Son", is God's own words which He placed in the mouth of His Son; to speak to men.

The emphasis is in the record God has given about His sin;

1 Jhn 5
10  He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11  And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.


Jhn 12
47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48  He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49  For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50  And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Jhn 17
1  ......................Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2  As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
8  For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
20  Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;


Thanks for the scriptures, you quoted...

God Bless,

Petro

Amen

Brother Love :)

YES!!!

I "LOVE" This

But to him that worketh not but  beliveth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”  Thus salvation is “not of works”  but “unto good works” (Eph. 2:8-10).  Good works is the fruit, not the root.


Brother Love :)