Open Theism, Does God know or not?

[SonofAslan]

Petro,

Two things.

First, for clarification, since your response seem to have understood something from my quote that I did not intend, when I said the Holy Spirit is NOT given to all, i meant that He is not given to all people. I fully believe He is given to all Christians, although baptism isn't exactly the sacrament where this occurs. But I could be wrong about that. Just for clarification.

Second, to be perfectly honest, I think I would prefer you didn't respond to Matthew, James, etc. on the other thread. I would prefer you respond to them here. The reason being is that I want Ambassador to respond to them. As of right now, he is rambling on and on without dealing with the passages. I want him to deal with them there, if you don't mind.

I would love to see what you have to say on them here, though.

Thanks.

[Krazeekkc]

God is loving. He gives us a choice: Heaven or Hell. It's pretty simple.  

[Petro]

SonofAslan,

In cleaning up or modifying this response whicvh was Reply #17, I damamged it, and have to repost it here, sorry...

posted by SonofAslan as reply #12
Actually this word "this" has three distinct meanings and can be interpreted in three different different ways in this passage, one way is as you have stated,
 

Your comment confuses me, because the word here, "touto" only has one meaning, and that is as a demonstrative pronoun "this". Demonstartive pronouns can be used in many ways, but it is impossible that it refers to "faith" or "grace". So I don't know what other meanings you could be referencing.

So you're confusing me a bit here.

SonofAslan,

You are confused because you want this verse to mean something it does not. The fact is;

 Neither  grace, faith (to believe in Jesus)(Gal3:22-29), nor salvation is  of  "Yourself"; you think, "faith" just came one day from nowhere?, the word of God produces this type of faith in those whom God has chosen,

Note verse 23 at Gal 3, it is revealed, and unless it is revealed to those who come with their feeble faith, they will never see the truth of this matter.  Simply speaking they remaing unable to see the truth of the scriptures, though they make themselves students of the scriptures.

Grace, Faith, Salvation is a mystery of the Kingdom, and they (the mysteries) are revealed to the elect/chosen of God, and He choses them, they do not chose Him.  Consider this verse;

Luke 8
10 .........Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

All of the natural faith, any natural man can muster up, is insufficient to come to Christ, because it is plain, at 1 Cor 2:14, that the things of God are Spiritually Discerned", and the kind of faith required is "spiritual".

We understand the Word of God, because we possess not only His Spirit, but the Mind of Christ.  (1 Cor 2:15-16)    

Notice these verses follow; verse 14??

Answer to question 2. The Holy Spirit is not given to ALL, whether baptized or not. There can be exceptions, as I noted, e.g. the thief on the cross, but these are exactly that, i.e. exceptions.

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

These two verses precede 1 Cor 2:14.

If you possess the Holy Spirit, and have been taught by the Holy Spirit, how is it you can contradict Him??

He says and teaches explicitly, that ALL who belong to Christ, presently possess Him, and He is the possesssion, which separates those who belong to Christ, from those who do not belong to Christ, since it is He,  that make the receiving of the "spiritual discernment of the things of God, possible..

I am afraid your own words give you away.

verses 14-17 above, are speaking of some other work, than that stated.

You misunderstand. You are getting caught up in the particularity of the form in which our works take. This is wrongheaded. There is no single particular form in which works manifest themselves that all must do to be saved. But there must be good works for us to be saved. Some may never have fed a homeless man in their lives, but have spent all their time visiting men in prisons. While others may never have visited a prison on their lives, but spend all their time feeding the hungry. The particular form of work isn't significant. These all fall under the general category of works : "loving God and loving our fellow man". And this category breaks down into "faith, repentance and baptism", which further breaks down into the particular works you refer to. So your statement that vv 14-17 arte talking about different works is false. They are talking about the same works as faith, repentance and baptism.

To Ollie, I was referencing Mat 25, these works are done to "the least of my brethern", specificlly during the tribulation
are counted "as being done as unto Me", you are refering to; James 2:14-17, these are two different context passages.

While I may agree with you partially on what you say, it is only because all good works, have a begining, and in this case they have begining with "doing the WILL of the Father, according to scripture.

The will of God, is expressed in the Command given to all people everwhere to repent. (Acts 17:30)

James 2:14-16, are speaking of the good works, which believers may do unto his fellow man, these are the results of being saved, not to be saved, of course those that believe one works himself into the presence of God, teach these are all lumped together as one great big work, then they emphasize these works done to mankind above the reality of act of repentance, this is similar to water baptism being one and the same as Baptism with the Holy Spirit, those who teach this, of which your church also does, emphasize the physical above the spirituall reality of it, the reason this is done is because, they all (those who teach these teachings of men), live by sight and not faith..

The fact is,  the the unsaved can and do these very acts of kindness, and they are not saved at all, you can read about this in  the following passage of scripture, here Jesus makes it plain;

Mat 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.  
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?  
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.  
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.  
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Notice; verses 22 and 23, specifically;

At verse 22, these goats, are vehemently testifying of their great activity, emphasizing all that they did, in His name no less; and yet, at verse 23, He says to them, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. "

In Mat 25, one can clearly understand, that the difference was not in the deeds themselves but their motive, one of compassion and love done as unto Jesus, because of the love one has for God and his fellow man, note what Jesus said;
at verse;

Mat 7
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Interestingly, the sheep, didn't even know that their work was done as unto Him, because, they were doing it out of love and compassion for the people;  this disproves your theory, about the doing of good works, in order to be saved; as these (the sheep) were not even aware of this. (Mat 25:34-36), otherwise they would not have asked, "when saw we thee...............vs 37, as they would have known that this was their reward for what they had done..

Here, at this passage of scripture, it is God who works it out in those whom he has chosen, and He is working in them to will and do of His good pleasure,

To read it this way leaves off half the verse. That's why I quoted all of it. You can only interpret this passage as you do if you ignore the first half. We work out our salvation WITH God. God doesn't work in us, in spite of ourselves. We work out His works. Cooperation. Like I explained.

Phil2
13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

This verse sheds light on the verse you rely on to work out your salvation, it is God through the Spirit which accomplishes the reality of faith, repentance, baptism with the Holy Spirit; the natural man, desires to save himself without assistance, or in the case of religious men, they want to assist God.

We do understand this scripture perfectly well, because He wills in us, to do of His good pleasure, how hard is this to understand?? It is only not understood by those unto whom, it has not been givcen to undertsand the word.

Since we possess this sin nature, because we are made from the dust of this sin cursed earth, if He didn't work supernaturally within his people thruogh the Spirit, even we would rebel and grieve the Spirit of God who dwells within us.





Cont'd..............

[Petro]

In this passage one must not ignore the context of the word, "work out" hear clearly means the solution of the problem that was vexing the Phillipians, that is to say, their contentions.

No it doesn't. Paul clearly says "work out YOUR SALVATION". He doesn't say, "Work out the solution to your problem."

(can you see, how it (FAITH) is given from heaven, to believe what one could never believe before, if, left to himself)

To you it doesn't....but unfortunately, scripture interprets itself, it doesn't needs mans help; this is written for your sake, so that Isaiah'a prophecy should be fulfilled.

This is where we're going to disagree. Faith is OUR response to God. It is not given to us from God. It is how we respond to His grace, which He gives us. Faith is ours. Do we respond with faith or with lack of faith? This part is up to us. Some may have MORE faith, which simply means that they turn to God more than others do, but it is still man's response.

As I stated previously, the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God, because they are spiritually discerned, plainly reveals unless God gives man,faith to believe by revelation, he cannot believe in Jesus, to the saving of the Soul.

even unbelievers who claim to believe can be baptized in water, this is clear, form this verse at Mark, but it produces nothing.

Just as grace not responded to in faith produces nothing. This is not problematic, but it doesn't negate the fact that baptism in water responded to in faith is how God bestows His Holy Spirit upon man.

Heb 4
2  For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Well, it is obvious that those that do not respond to Christ by faith, possess some kind of faith, but it is not centered on Him and His finished Works, but it is, in their own works, not Gods, the object of their faith is misplaced. And therefore is worthless.

Your statement above, reflects this clearly, the Apostles never taught that salvation was given in water baptism, but, did teach that salvation was found in faith in Christ Jesus.(Acts4:12), Cornelius and his household were saved after the day of Pentecost, everyone who received the gift of the Holy Spirit did so when they were baptized with the Holy Spirit, as had been prophecied by John (Jhn 1:33), only by claiming that they were saved in a different way from us, can you reconcile the scriptures.

Petro

PS I have not had a chance to work of my response concerning your question, for a simple answer..but will do so.


And yes, I will honor your request and post my answer on this page.

[Petro]

Petro,

Two things.

First, for clarification, since your response seem to have understood something from my quote that I did not intend, when I said the Holy Spirit is NOT given to all, i meant that He is not given to all people. I fully believe He is given to all Christians, although baptism isn't exactly the sacrament where this occurs. But I could be wrong about that. Just for clarification.

Second, to be perfectly honest, I think I would prefer you didn't respond to Matthew, James, etc. on the other thread. I would prefer you respond to them here. The reason being is that I want Ambassador to respond to them. As of right now, he is rambling on and on without dealing with the passages. I want him to deal with them there, if you don't mind.

I would love to see what you have to say on them here, though.

Thanks.

SonofAslan,

I fully believe He is given to all Christians, although baptism isn't exactly the sacrament where this occurs. But I could be wrong about that. Just for clarification.

I am glad you clarified this, if this is true (that you "fully believe He is given to all Christians"), this can change your understanding of this matter considerably, providing of course the Spirit is leading you.

As I said before, and it i needs to emphacised;  that,

Water baptism is the shadow of the reality of Baptism with the Holy Spirit, and of course while not separarting the two, it must be understood in their context.

Just as,

Physical circumcision of the flesh is the shadow of circumcision of the heart.

Both are a work of God, and not man, the observance of symbol simply speaks of the heart of the desire of doer of the shadow of the real thing to be obedient to God, and while this can be said to be a work, the doing of it, is not what produces the reality of it. Because it must be mixed with faith, and the faith must be focused on the proper object, not the work.

This is made clear in these verses;

Rom 2
28  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

If this is true, then water baptism, which a washing of the flesh,  also does not, (the shadow of the sprinkling spoken of in Eze 36:25-27) make a Jew, anyone who is baptized in water.

Cornelius, and his family possessed the Holy Spirit before they were baptized with water, this is testified to in Acts 10:45 and 15:8 , by Peter at Jerusalem.

The Book of Titus makes this clearer:

Titus 3
5  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

What more can I say about this.

Now, Concerning Mathew 25, and James 2, I will post my answer to you for sure later today.

Blessings,
Petro

[SonofAslan]

This bleepity-bleep-bleeping-bleep server. I had a long response typed in, hit submit, and it couldn’t access the server, so I lost it. BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, I’m not typing it again. It was nearly 3 pages long.


The MOST important thing I said, I believe, besides thanks for answering me here, is that you have a tendency to take one verse and elevate it to the status of a canon within Scripture. This is illegitimate. You have to read all Scripture together.

You also misunderstand us if you think we elevate the physical over the spiritual. They cannot be separated as you do. To do this falls into gnosticism, and turns ALL physical reality into something totally divorced from the spiritual reality. Thus you legitimize adultery as mere biological coupling with no spiritual content. You legitimize murder as mere disintegration of atomic compounds with no spiritual ramifications. The spiritual and material CANNOT be divorced either in morality or in the sacraments. You destroy both by your understanding.

You have also taken several Scripture out of context (most notably Matt 7:22ff -- which talks about works all over the place, and in fact, Christ says right before the verse you quoted that not those who say to Him “:Lord Lord” but those who “do the will of my Father” shall enter the kingdom. So whatever deeds they may have done, they were “practicing lawlessness (the basis Jesus gives for casting them out) and NOT doing the will of the Father. This passage doesn’t support your claim.)

Also faith is OUR response. Your quote of Gal 3 says nothing to the contrary, and Eph cannot be used to support your claim that faith is a “gift from God”.

[Petro]

SonofAslan,

To answer your question concerning how, we reconcile, the faith works scriptures, which seem to be a stumbling stone to many today, we say that ultimately, since we understand perfectly, that because of sin, we were numbered among the transgressors and condemned to an eternity in hell,

All, because of the sin of unbelief, and we confess today,  that our faith is not the result of our own  cleverness, nor human understanding or wisdom, which is nothing other than foolishness (the wisdom of this world), to believe that we believed by our own strength.

The Grace that brought us, to a saving faith in Christ Jesus, for sure we see as a gift given by God, (whether you accept this or not, matters littel to us) and that because of Gods infinite mercy, grace and sovereign will, having elected us, to hear and believe the Gospel of our Salvation, which is preached to every creature, as ordained by the Lord,

And were it not for His intervention, we would still remain in the sin of unbelief, as many do today.

The context of verses 31 thru 46 of Mat 25, is at period afte  the end of the Tribulation , when the King returns and is ruling from the throne, vs 32  And before him shall be gathered all nations:.............., precisely when this occurs, your guess is as good as mine..

my own undertsanding is imediately before his thousdand year reign on the earth, because of what Zecariah writes, at Chap 14.

This is made clear from, these verses;

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:  
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

that the time of the fulfillment  of these scriptures is at the end times, is apparent, since judgement is evidenced herein,  since, it is to occuring after  the King (Jesus)  returns to sit upon the throne of His glory, referring to the Messianic prophecy in the OT as spoken by Nathan the prophet to King David, and it is plain this occurs at the end the great tribulation, axactly when is not settled.

In that day, He (Jesus) will be King over all the earth. (Zec  14:9)

This whole chapter, begins with the coming day of the Lord, and reveals when that day begins, note the graphic description of the first six verses, and consider that they are the same words spoken in Mat 24, at verses; 7, 29, 42.

Zec 14:16, is the reality of the vision, Isaiah had,  at Chapter 6:1-5, of Jesus sitting on the throne, in the year King Uzziah died, compare verse 1 of Isaiah 6, to verse 5 of Zec 14.

Now, the nations, which are gathered at Mat 25:32, are the nations of the world, Zec speaks of these peoples of these nations at verses 2, 12 and 16.

So here  you have the setting for which Mat 25, is to be understood, it is during the times after the Great Tribulation known as  Jacobs Trouble upon the Nation of Israel,  which affects the entire world of nations.

But the focus is on the people of these nations, symbolized by the sheep and goats, then, the focus becomes,  what they did, or didn't do, during this time of trouble.

It is clear the sheep, were already sheep, and the goats already goats,  when they were divided, and clear they,  didn't become goats or sheep during this period of time because of what they did, since the Lord makes it plain (who His sheep are and what qualities define there nature at Jhn 10:14,26-27)  and  (the passage at Mat 7:21-27 speaks of at certain "day", since at these verses it is clear in Mat 25:32 , is "that day" spoken of at verse 22 , of  Mat 7 ),

Both places were prepared for, beforehand for both the sheep and the goats.

For the sheep, the kingdom was prepared  for them, "from the foundation of the world"; we read at

Eph 1:3-5;
3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

For the goats, there place, was not prepared for them, specifically,  but has become their destiny, because of there works, this is to say, (what they did or didn't do),  depending on whether you accept Mat 7:21-27 or Mat 25:31- 40, to be connected,

At any rate, I had mentioned beforehand to you, that all will be judged (whose names are not written in the Lambs book of life) in the end according to their works, (Rev 20:11-15)

As stated, the works, at Mat 25 are not the rule which determine who is a goat and who were sheep.  What they did and didn't do, was elaborated on by Jesus at Mat 7:24-27.
 
But at these verse:
The sheep because of their nature did, what was right according to the King, as Jesus elaborates at Mat 25:35 through 40, and He counted it as thou it was done unto Him.

The goats, because of their nature, did not do, what was right according to the King, and it is for this reason they are sent into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Now, here I have to admit, it appears, that had the goats done what the sheep had done they,  may have been able to be counted among the sheep; but this theory is rejected by scripture at verse 46, where the sheep are referred to as "righteous", this is the reason why they did what they did.  

They knew the King and,  they also knew that the King delighted, in mercy, grace, doing good, and scripture says;

Psa 37:21, "the righteous showeth mercy, and giveth."

Zec 7:9  " Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Execute true judgment, and show mercy and compassion's every man to his brother:

And Jesus said;  concerning His brothers, sisters, and mother;

Mat 12
50  ...........whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mat 5
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

This is how we understand Mat 25, the works the sheep did, was accepted by the King as though they did it unto Him; and who were His brethren referred to herein,  Jewish descendant, that yet were outside of the faith in (Jesus) the King , during the Tribulation they will bear the brunt of the Evil ones persecutions, but the sheep who symbolize the elected of God, will care for them, with acts of kindness, and mercy, and love, out of obedience for their King.

Yet they never counted their deeds, as though they were to be counted expecting a reward, this is why they asked the King;

Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
  When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
  Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?  (Mat 25:37-39)
 

So that these works, do not contradict the scriptures that teach, man is not saved by good works (Eph 2:8-9), but by mercy, grace through faith.


I will address, James 2, in my next post.

Blessings,
Petro

[Petro]

This bleepity-bleep-bleeping-bleep server. I had a long response typed in, hit submit, and it couldn’t access the server, so I lost it. BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, I’m not typing it again. It was nearly 3 pages long.

SonofAslan,

I have the same problem, I have simply just resigned myself to typing my answers first on my word writing program and transferring it to thge post window, (what I have found out is four pages is the max, one can post, otherwise one can lose what he tried to post.

The MOST important thing I said, I believe, besides thanks for answering me here, is that you have a tendency to take one verse and elevate it to the status of a canon within Scripture. This is illegitimate. You have to read all Scripture together.

I have no idea what point you are tyrying to make, every verse is inspired, and a part of the cannon, and none contradict the teaching of the whole word.

You also misunderstand us if you think we elevate the physical over the spiritual.

No I don't, you do, this is evidenced by infant baptism, which your church practices and you believe in,  nowhere, in the scriptures will one find, any grounds for performing such a ceremony.  

They cannot be separated as you do. To do this falls into gnosticism, and turns ALL physical reality into something totally divorced from the spiritual reality. Thus you legitimize adultery as mere biological coupling with no spiritual content. You legitimize murder as mere disintegration of atomic compounds with no spiritual ramifications. The spiritual and material CANNOT be divorced either in morality or in the sacraments. You destroy both by your understanding.

I separate them for your benefit, that yuou might see, the physical is the shadow of the real object.  I have made this plane to you alteady, if you can't grasp this then, I can't help you.

You have also taken several Scripture out of context (most notably Matt 7:22ff -- which talks about works all over the place, and in fact, Christ says right before the verse you quoted that not those who say to Him “:Lord Lord” but those who “do the will of my Father” shall enter the kingdom. So whatever deeds they may have done, they were “practicing lawlessness (the basis Jesus gives for casting them out) and NOT doing the will of the Father. This passage doesn’t support your claim.)

I am afraid you are reading something else into these verses,.

Their own words, testify they thought the work they were doing, (cause they invoked His name),  were sufficient to enter the Kingdom, it is plain as daylight, they certainly thought had done the will of the Father.

In the begining I asked you,  "what is the work, one must do to enter the Kinghdom??"

You answered; believe, repent, and be baptized.

All these I thought we agreed were grasped by faith.

Now you claim, it is another work, together with these.

Also faith is OUR response. Your quote of Gal 3 says nothing to the contrary, and Eph cannot be used to support your claim that faith is a “gift from God”.

I can use the verses that speak plainly to me about what they teach, (so long they do not contradict the rest of the teaching of scripture) the fact you separate what the gift encompasses, by the use of semantics, and defining words to support your theory, your way, puts you at odds with the rest of scripture, concerning works. (Scripture teaches man is saved by Grace through Faith) , now you seem to be claiming Faith is a work, is this what you are now saying.

So, which is it, is faith the work?? or the others, you are starting to jump around, as if you are on a hot skillet..


Gal 3
22  But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23  But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

These verses, certainly make the point, faith had not been grasped, this is why men perish, and the promise could not come, because of the lack of faith, and verse 23, says, that "faith which should afterwards be revealed",  I suppose you would teach that one day, you revealed  Jesus to yourself,  huh??

I don't know whether we are getting anywhere, but at least we are considering scripture.

Blessings,

Petro

[Petro]

SonofAslan,

Now, concerning James 2:14-26, It is important not to leave out the first thirteen verses of this passage, since it sets up the verses, which seem to teach there is a work other than "believing by faith" the works of God.

14  What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

in another thread which seems to reconcile, faith and works as one, I asked the question, What is the answer to this question??

What would be your answer to this question scripture asks??

15  If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16  And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18  Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20  But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21  Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22  Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23  And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25  Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26  For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

In the other thread, Ollie, inserts two verses in 2 Cor 5, I expand them to include the following;

And, In the light of, these verses;

1 Cor 5
5  Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6  Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7  (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9  Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Verse 9 speaks of some kind of labour, is this labor necessary for salvation??

You would answer "YES", as you have already ikndicated, for all work is one in the same and necessary for salvation you would argue; the problem with this thought is, that the very next verse (vs 10)  discounts this theory outta hand, since "suffer loss" according to the next set of verses, speaks of  a spiritual loss, and judgement is received in the same body one had which earned him this loss , but does not affect his salvation,  at all, since it is plain, the individual whose works are judged is still saved according to verse, (15, below). And note verse 8, below, each man receives his own reward according to his own labor

1 Cor 3
5  Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6  I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7  So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8  Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9  For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10  According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11  For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12  Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16  Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

These verses speak for themselves, a man is not judged by his works for salvation, but judged for the receiving of a reward or suffering loss, but neither affect his salvation, this is very clear.

Now, back to Jeames 2,

Faith according to Heb11:1, is the confident assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of the reality of things not seen.

 It is the basis for salvation , which is being that of being born of the will of God by his power (Jhn 1:12-13) by faith in Jesus Christ, becoming children of God thru the same faith in Jesus (Gal 3:26), and are kept by the same power, thru faith in Him (1 Pet 1:5)

Works are the deeds of men, whether good or evil, and according to scripture no flesh can be justified by  works of the law (if this is true, what other works can justify, certainly not, good deeds which the heathen do; and are not justified by them doing them.  

Let me stop here,  so as not confuse you any further, the law has to aspects to it, the letter and the spirit, obedience to the letter of the law, keeps the law as a friend to oneself, but imediately upon transgressing it, the law becomes an enemy, because it demands retribution, judgment, and that judgement is death; while......... the spirit of the law, is such that  obedience to it is life eternal, the problem is "there is none that keep it". Consider, (2 Cor 3:6)(Rom 7:6)(

So works are simply the basis for rewards or punishment when men are judged according to their deeds, and this judgement as has been showen, has absolutely nothing to do with losing  nor gaining salvation, Eph 2:8-9, makes it plain, one does nothing to obtain it by anyuthing he does , and Gal 2:16, even obeying the law does not justify a man.

Men confuse these two concepts; but, scripture never does.

James, at chapter 2, appears to contradict what Paul states at  Rom 3:28;  that  "a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the Law",  while James at 2:24 says; "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

So, where is the problem.  Paul was writing about justification before God, see Rom 4:2.  

While James herein writes of being justified before men, see verse 2:18 " Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works."

He (James is writing and dealing with the question of the man who says he has faith, but has no works to demonstrate its reality, this is the context of James 2:14-20.  He says nothing to discredit faith, nor to suggest that this man of faith may be unsaved.

Paul speaks of the root of the Christian walk; while James of its fruit, before the unlearneded and unsaved.

Faith and works are put in prespective in Eph 2:8-9, it depends how one understands this passage that determines, his view on the sugject.  Either way, all are saved the same way, by faith, not by works; however we are saved "unto good works."  and, this means we are to maintain good works (Titus 3:, being fruitful in them, (Col 1:10), so that God may be glorified when Christ returns,  (1 Pet 2:12).

A short word on your answer, concerning works;  you stated that the works necessary to become saved, were;  believe, repent, be baptised.

We agreed on one of the three, it seems your understanding of repentance was a little clouded in my mind, repentance, is something which God gives, I know you disagree with this, but the word is very clear about it being granted by God,  since in;

Acts 11
18  ..............................Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

It is God who hardens hearts or softens them, so that he should receive the glory for the gift of salvation in the end, he is Sovereign and does what He wills in the affairs of men.

I know this rubs you and others the wrong way, but unfortunately, this is the truth, and salvation has nothing to do with anyone except on whom God desires to give it to.

Unknown quote;

"Who are they that, object vehemently to the absolutes of God's word?  

But, Those who object to God's word. "

I trust you are not one of these..

Petro

[Petro]

SonofAslan,


In reading another thread on this forum, I noticed you, made comment to Anathasius, and Pelegianism, and Anathasius's defence against this heretical doctrine.

Your post gave the impression, you understand the teaching of these doctrines.

Throughout church history the debate concerning predestination has raged among three views: Pelagianism, semi-Pelagianism, and Augustinianism.

1.  Pelagianism maintains that God's grace assists fallen man in redemption but is not necessary to attain salvation. This view, which holds that fallen man is virtuous and able to earn salvation by doing good works, has always been considered heretical by the church because it rejects the necessity of faith and total dependence on Christ in salvation.

Though heretical, it has reappeared this century in many liberal churches.

2.  Semi-Pelagianism, very similar to Arminianism, contends that man cannot be saved apart from God's grace; however, fallen man must cooperate and assent to God's grace before he will be saved. Inherent in this view is the belief that man, prior to any work of regeneration in the soul by God, has the power to accept and embrace God's grace. Salvation for semi-Pelagians is man's decision, not God's will.

In this scheme, two people can receive the same offer of salvation by God. One may turn in faith of his own accord, the other may not -- the difference being not God's grace in the matter, but man's will.

The semi-Pelagians would argue that the person who comes to faith cannot do so without God's grace, but that grace is not the determining factor in a person's coming to faith, this then is the reason, why Armenianism, teaches a "faith, works gospel"..

The final distinction between believer and unbeliever is something in the believer.

We contend, that distinction is the Holy Spirit, drawing, moving and working in the unbeliever, who has been elected to become a BELIEVER.  This is why, Heb 6:4-6, is accepted as and understood to be speaking of an unbeliever, who has been sanctified for the hearing of the Gospel, and the teaching at this verses, is that "it is impossible", "if they should fall away to renew them again to repentance".  

The Key word in this passage is the word  "IF".  And this passage is definitely not speaking of a be4liever who falls away.

I believe you used the word Arian, in describing Semi-Pelegianism, they are not the same error, I was wondering if you didn't mean Armenianism??  It should not have anything to do with Orthodoxy, since it is a Protestant doctrine.

It is apparent to me by this time, that you support and align yourself with the doctrine embraced by  Semi-Pelegianism in the Orhtodox camp and Armenianism in the Protestant camp, is this so??

If it is, how is it that eastern Orthodox faithful, have come, once again, to embraced, elements of this heretical doctrine,  which have been adjured to be paganism and condemned  by the Carthaginian Synod of 412, and Pope Innocent I in 416??

Or is it because east and west, settled on Semi-Pelegianism to be the embraced doctrine of both camps??

Petro.

[SonofAslan]

Ok, first, your distinction between sin in  general and the sin of unbelief, as if a) this distinction is legit and b) the sin of unbelief is so heinous but all other sin is perfectly acceptable to God is an abomination. All sin is pure wickedness and God can abide NONE of it. And unbelief is no WORSE a sin than adultery or murder. In fact, the mother of ALL sin is pride.

Second, show me anywhere in Scripture where this distinction you make between the supposed “sin of unbelief” and all other sin. It isn’t here. Sin is sin. Period.

Third, who ever said faith is a result of cleverness, man’s wisdom or anything of the sort? You are distorting Scripture again. Faith is our response to God. It isn’t a result of man’s cleverness or wisdom, but it is a result of man’s will. Believing isn’t a matter of strength or anything else. It is simply a loving, submissive response to God’s grace. And it is OUR response. We decide how to respond. Wisdom, cleverness, etc….what are those and what do they have to do with faith? Respond to what I say. Not what you think I said or thought I said or what the last person you talk to said. Respond to me.

Fourth, (and this got lost when my post got lost). If works play a role in our being justified before God before the supposed Tribulation, they play a role in our being justified before God PERIOD. There is only ONE way to be acceptable to God, and if works play a role in that, they ALWAYS play a role in that. There aren’t multiple ways of becoming acceptable to God. That is the heresy of dispensationalism.

Now, here I have to admit, it appears, that had the goats done what the sheep had done they, may have been able to be counted among the sheep; but this theory is rejected by scripture at verse 46, where the sheep are referred to as "righteous", this is the reason why they did what they did.

No Petro, they are righteous because they did righteous deeds. The goats are unrighteous because they did unrighteous deeds. Our choice. We aren’t robots. God hasn’t determined how we will act. We are not His puppets. He hasn’t ordained our end. We choose it., based on our response to His grace.

This is how we understand Mat 25, the works the sheep did, was accepted by the King as though they did it unto Him; and who were His brethren referred to herein, Jewish descendant, that yet were outside of the faith in (Jesus) the King , during the Tribulation they will bear the brunt of the Evil ones persecutions, but the sheep who symbolize the elected of God, will care for them, with acts of kindness, and mercy, and love, out of obedience for their King.

Whew, I have a lot I could say here, but I will restrain myself to saying that you have interpreted Scripture in a way that is not found in Scripture itself. And then you say WE practice and teach things not found in Scripture? You draw connections between passages of Scripture that are arbitrary at best, and interpret them in such a way that is not found in Scripture. I’m specifically referring to your understanding of the Tribulation.

Yes, their good deeds were considered as done to Christ. Does this refer to deeds done during some supposed Tribulation? No! Nothing anywhere here even remotely suggests that. The closest reference to any kind of tribulation is a chapter removed. You have added your own interpretation to Scripture and reject what it says. Scripture is quite plain, especially here. Those who act righteously enter the kingdom. Those who act wickedly are cast out. Choose this day who you will follow. The choice is yours and hasn’t been made for you.

Yet they never counted their deeds, as though they were to be counted expecting a reward, this is why they asked the King;

That’s right. Because if they had done their deeds expecting a reward, their deeds would not have been righteous. They would have been selfish.

[SonofAslan]

Ok, whew. Your next post.

You have confused a few things. I don’t recall mentioning Pelagius, but maybe I did.

Athanasius was primarily the Church father who combated Arianism, which, you’re correct, is not related to Pelagianism (except insofar as all heresy is related). Augustine and Jerome were primarily the Fathers who combated Pelagius.

Were not as big on Augustine in the East as you guys are in the West, although he I still a saint and a Church Father for us. But he erred on the opposite side in our view.

But as for your understanding of these heresies, they are slightly off, I think. At least as I understand them.

The main argument against Pelagius was that he denied the role of grace. He said that we are perfectly capable according to our own free will, which God created us with, of obeying all the commandments and living a perfectly righteous life. His response to the claim that he denied grace was that no he didn’t, because grace was what allowed our wills to be free.

This was condemned, rightly so. We cannot, without grace, and without more grace than our free wills are “naturally” endowed with, live a righteous life. Impossible.

Semi-Palaginsim is a complicated view, and significantly, has NEVER been condemned as a heresy. However, it has heretical tendencies. Part of it IS that we cooperate with God in performing good works. But the heretical semi-pelagian understanding is that, yes, we can do no good without God’s grace, but God’s grace is given to us based on whether we make the initial step towards god. God is waiting for us to make the first move, then He responds with grace. And this too is false and heretical.

We can only respond to God’s grace because God’s grace is given to us FIRST. Without God’s grace, we could not respond to Him. But with God’s grace, we can respond to Him. We still can’t live righteous lives according to our free will, but we can cooperate with his grace, once it has been given, to do more and more good works. God acts first and then man responds. It is like a little baby learning to walk. The child can do nothing towards walking at first. But the parent reaches down and lifts him up by his hands and holds his hands while the infant moves his feet. If the parent let’s go, the baby will fall on its bottom and can do nothing, but conversely, if the baby doesn’t support himself with his feet and move them in rhythm with the parent’s guidance, he also will fall on his bottom. Not because the parent CAN’T hold the baby up or drag him along. The parent is perfectly capable of doing that. But that does the baby no good. So the parent waits until the baby is ready to try again, and then the process starts over. Is the baby walking? No. Is the baby walking by his own power? CERTAINLY not. It can hardly be called walking at all. But the baby is cooperating with the parent to walk, practically speaking. That’s what our deeds are like. We must do what we can, and God responds. If we do nothing, then we gain nothing. It might be better to say God cooperates with us rather than we cooperate with Him, but the point is the same. We must do what we can, and God picks up the slack.

It is my view, and I believe Orthodoxy’s view (but don’t hold them to my claims), that God’s grace is given to all men through the cross and resurrection. Now it is up to us to respond in faith. Those who do and persevere, attain the Kingdom. Those who don’t, do not. To use the same analogy as the baby walking, God reaches out His hands to everyone. Some move their feet and others don’t. Those who move their feet, get to the end of the road. Those who don’t move their feet, just sit there. As C S Lewis said, “All find what they truly seek.” I modify that a bit to “All receive what the truly want.” Those who want salvation, find it. They move their feet, perhaps with their feet barely touching the floor, but they're doing what they can. Those who don’t want salvation (or don't want it ENOUGH), are like the baby who sits on the floor crying because the parent won’t drag him along.

Did that explain the difference? Armenianism? I don’t know anything that about really, except that it’s a reaction to Calvin’s extremes. But all reactions tend to fall into the opposite error.

I don't expect you to agree with what I said, but it should be understandable. And I think it should be clear that it contains no heresy.

[SonofAslan]

(APPARENTLY, half my post got lost. Fortunately this time, I didn't delete it from my WP. So add this post to the end of the one before the one taht discusses heresies.

You know, I’m really starting to hate this site. That should make Juan happy. He can come back. But I have a feeling he’s here anyway. )  

I have no idea what point you are tyrying to make, every verse is inspired, and a part of the cannon, and none contradict the teaching of the whole word.

Yeah, that’s too bad. That’s part of what got lost.

Ok, here’s the gist of it, if I can make it clear. You take Romans and decided that Romans and Ephesians are the hermeneutical key to James and Matthew. Thus, you have elevated Romans and Ephesians to a level where they are a canon within the canon. Romans has more authority than James because James must be submitted to what Romans says, while Romans stands all by itself. This is illegitimate. They must be put together, not subordinated to one another. The leaves you with a distorted view of Scripture, as I think you have shown.

No I don't, you do, this is evidenced by infant baptism, which your church practices and you believe in, nowhere, in the scriptures will one find, any grounds for performing such a ceremony.

See your understanding of the Tribulation above. But contrary to your claim, there IS Scriptural evidence for this.



Acts 16:14 - 15 (NKJV)
Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul. And when she and her household were baptized, she begged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” So she persuaded us.

Do you honestly think there were no children in Lydia’s household? It says she “and her household”. No one is excluded here. Not children. Not infants. No one. The entire household was baptized.

Acts 16:32-33 (NKJV)
Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.

The jailer’s ENTIRE FAMILY was baptized. Again, no one is excluded as being too young. They were ALL baptized. Infants children and adults alike. If you think it is unlikely that these households had no children and/or infants, I would respectfully suggest you do a little historical research.


But let’s suppose these passages didn’t exist. Or even that there is the remote possibility that neither of these families had children. So what? There is nothing in Scripture to prohibit baptizing infants. Especially not when there is even indication that people were baptized for the dead (1 Cor 15:29). If the dead can be baptized for, then certainly an infant can be baptized.  Further, given your Calvinistic understanding, your claim that they don’t understand why they are being baptized is irrelevant and hypocritical. If we don’t have the ability to choose whether we are saved or not, then it doesn’t really matter whether an infant understands what is being done or not, or whether he has been able to formulate a conscious decision. According to you, our conscious decision plays no role in our salvation anyway, so your criticism of us is hypocritical.

I separate them for your benefit, that yuou might see, the physical is the shadow of the real object. I have made this plane to you alteady, if you can't grasp this then, I can't help you.

So if you don’t separate them in practice, why do you criticize us for recognizing that they aren’t separated? Again Petro, your getting hypocritical. If you too understand that the physical can’t be separated from the spiritual, then what is the problem with our understanding? You can’t criticize us for relating the spiritual and material in an essential manner, if you too recognize this essential union.

I can use the verses that speak plainly to me about what they teach, (so long they do not contradict the rest of the teaching of scripture) the fact you separate what the gift encompasses, by the use of semantics, and defining words to support your theory, your way, puts you at odds with the rest of scripture, concerning works. (Scripture teaches man is saved by Grace through Faith) , now you seem to be claiming Faith is a work, is this what you are now saying.

This is what I always said. Notice the first of the three “works” I listed: BELIEVE. And if the only critieria for being an acceptable interpretation is that something not contradict the rest of Scripture, then it is perfectly legitimate for me to understand the appearance of god in Ezekiel as a spaceship? After all, that doesn’t contradict ANY Scripture. It is not enough to “not contradict” Scripture. It must be in conformity WITH Scripture. And your interpretation is NOT in conformity with Scripture. You must distort other passages to maintain it. Matt 7 (I REALLY wish my post hadn’t gotten lost, I dealt with this passage in detail)..I can only suggest you read it again. Pay attention how many times Jesus says the righteous are righteous because of what they DO, and how Jesus condemns those who called Him “Lord Lord” because they “practiced lawlessness”. It is ALL OVER that passage.

These verses, certainly make the point, faith had not been grasped, this is why men perish, and the promise could not come, because of the lack of faith, and verse 23, says, that "faith which should afterwards be revealed", I suppose you would teach that one day, you revealed Jesus to yourself, huh??

Of course not. Jesus revealed Himself and the father to ALL MEN. Faith hadn’t been revealed yet because the OBJECT of Faith hadn’t been revealed yet. That doesn’t mean faith didn’t EXIST. Even in the OT, we are told the righteous will live by faith. Just as sin still existed even without the law (remember, the Law only REVEALED sin, it didn’t CREATE sin), so also faith still existed before Christ, it just wasn’t recognized AS faith until Christ, the OBJECT of faith, had appeared.

I don't know whether we are getting anywhere, but at least we are considering scripture.

Blessings,

LOL. I am far too seldom wise enough to let the progress being made determine the persistence of my arguments.

Blessings back.
Jim

[SonofAslan]

Ok, I’m going to try to keep this brief.

To answer your question as to what value faith without works has? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

When I was Protestant, I answered the question the same way you’re doing, but even then I knew it wasn’t a totally adequate answer. Let me explain why.

Your response that works merely DEMONSTRATE our faith is inadequate because James is saying more than that. It is NOT the case that works are merely signs that indicate a true faith, as if there could be a true faith without these works. No James is clear. It is NOT just that they demonstrate faith. They are what makes faith REAL. It is impossible to have real faith and NOT have works. To say that works a merely a sign is saying that they may or may not be there, but the faith is real on its own. After all, a sign is not the thing it signifies. If there is a sign on the road pointing to Dallas, whether the sign is there or not, Dallas is still down the road. You just may not KNOW Dallas is down the road. This is not what James is saying. If the “sign”, i.e. works, isn’t there, then faith isn’t there either.  That’s why faith without works is DEAD. It isn’t sick. It isn’t hidden. It is DEAD.

As for Cor 3, I see nothing here of relevance. That our straw will be burned up is agreed by both sides of this discussion. So whatever else is involved, isn’t germane here.

The Hebrews passage is even more complex. I know of NO “accepted” interpretation of that passage from anyone. But I’m not interested in discussing once saved always saved. I think that’s an open question (I actually think it’s meaningless, which is why I’m not interested in discussing it – it misunderstands all the terms it uses). So let’s just stay with what we’re on.

Also, I stated this earlier, but I need to state it again, I think. Works fall under a hierarchy. There are all the individual good works, e.g. helping a lady across the street, feeding the hungry, etc.. These (when they are the types of works that contribute to our salvation) all fall under the category the work of “believing, repenting, and being baptized”. As a genus falls under the category of species. Now of course, all these works can be done in such a way as NOT to contribute to salvation and even contribute to our DAMNATION, if they are done for the sake of personal glory for instance. If they aren’t the fruit of faith, they accomplish nothing. And believing, repenting and being baptized all fall under the further category of loving God and your neighbor, which is the ULTIMATE category of works. It is a hierarchy.

You are making distinctions again between works that aren’t to be distinguished. Feeding the hungry IS the work of faith. It IS believing. It IS being baptized. It IS repenting. Precisely because it IS loving God and our neighbor. All these  works you cite in James are merely subcategories of these HIGHER works. They aren’t distinct from them.

Is that clear?

[SonofAslan]

PS Carthage in 412 condemned Pelagianism, not semi-Pelagianism. This, just to reiterate what I wrote above, is not to declare semi-Pelagianism an acceptable teaching.

The problem is that there is no clear-cut understanding of what semi-Pelagianism is. And I summarized its heretical aspects briefly and clearly (I hope and think).