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Eddielee
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« on: April 09, 2004, 04:56:51 PM »

I'll go topic by topic through each question investigating a pre-wrath view, without muddying the waters by addressing too many issues at once. I will try to stay on the subject of the first question before delving into the topic matter of the next question.

Question 1:
When do you believe the wrath of God begins?

The pre-wrath view is that the wrath of God begins during the 70th week. The wrath of God equals the Day of the Lord in the pre-wrath view. The crux of the view is that the wrath of God cannot begin before the mid-point of the week, based on the following scripture:

Basis of the Day of the Lord:
 Zephaniah 1:14-17 -
         The great day of the LORD is near;
         It is near and hastens quickly.
         The noise of the day of the LORD is bitter;
         There the mighty men shall cry out.
         That day is a day of wrath,
         A day of trouble and distress,
         A day of devastation and desolation,
         A day of darkness and gloominess,
         A day of clouds and thick darkness,
         A day of trumpet and alarm
         Against the fortified cities
         And against the high towers.
 
         "I will bring distress upon men,
         And they shall walk like blind men,
         Because they have sinned against the LORD;
         Their blood shall be poured out like dust,
         And their flesh like refuse."
 
 
 Amos 5:16-20 -
     Therefore the LORD God of hosts, the Lord, says this:
 
         "There shall be wailing in all streets,
         And they shall say in all the highways,
         "Alas! Alas!'
         They shall call the farmer to mourning,
         And skillful lamenters to wailing.
         In all vineyards there shall be wailing,
         For I will pass through you,"
         Says the LORD.
 
         Woe to you who desire the day of the LORD!
         For what good is the day of the LORD to you?
         It will be darkness, and not light.
         It will be as though a man fled from a lion,
         And a bear met him!
         Or as though he went into the house,
         Leaned his hand on the wall,
         And a serpent bit him!
         Is not the day of the LORD darkness, and not light?
         Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?
 
 
 
 Isaiah 2:10-12      
         Enter into the rock, and hide in the dust,
         From the terror of the LORD
         And the glory of His majesty.
         The lofty looks of man shall be humbled,
         The haughtiness of men shall be bowed down,
         And the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
 
         For the day of the LORD of hosts
         Shall come upon everything proud and lofty,
         Upon everything lifted up--
         And it shall be brought low--
 
 Isaiah 2:17-18
         The loftiness of man shall be bowed down,
         And the haughtiness of men shall be brought low;
         The LORD alone will be exalted in that day,
         But the idols He shall utterly abolish.
 
 
These scriptures are a demonstration that during the Day of the Lord (or by the end of its duration), no other idols will exist, they will all be brought low.

The pre-wrath view takes the desecration of the temple by the abomination of desolation literally, such that there will be an idol set up in the temple.
 
  Scriptures about this:
 
 Daniel 11:31,36-37 -
 And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.... "Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done. He shall regard neither the God of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all.
 
 
The abomination is not set up until the middle of the 70th week, 3 and a half years after the beginning of the week:
 
 Daniel 9:27 -
         Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
         But in the middle of the week
         He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
         And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
         Even until the consummation, which is determined,
         Is poured out on the desolate."
 

The main scripture on this is 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4:

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.


With these scriptures it is held that the Day of the Lord cannot begin until some time after the abomination of desolation is set up and the man of lawlessness revealed.  
 

Questions yet to be answered:
When does the Rapture take place?
  Does the Rapture occur followed by a period of time until the Second Coming or do both events happen on the same day?
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Bronzesnake
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« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2004, 06:52:31 PM »

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The "falling away" is the Saints being Raptured, and that happens first. Shortly after that the son of perdition is no longered hindered from makeing a personal apearance, so he shows up. As long as there are Christians on the earth, satan can not make a physical appearance. Once we are gone, he arrives.

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« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2004, 08:35:35 PM »

hey , i think the rapture already went down. my picture of jesus is gone.HuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuh Undecided
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Eddielee
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« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2004, 11:58:57 AM »

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The "falling away" is the Saints being Raptured, and that happens first. Shortly after that the son of perdition is no longered hindered from makeing a personal apearance, so he shows up. As long as there are Christians on the earth, satan can not make a physical appearance. Once we are gone, he arrives.



So the two issues here are:
A. That the "falling away" refers to the rapture.
B. Satan cannot make a physical appearance because Christians hinder him from doing so.

I don't see evidence for either of these claims. I think that the falling away, or rebellion, is what Paul is speaking about a few verses later:

The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.


I think that the falling away is the great apostacy, where the love of most will grow cold as Jesus put it.
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« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2004, 06:11:56 PM »

Se what I mean.

The falling away to these is the rapture...

My question to these is when, then is the apostasy, spoken of by Paul'

2 Tim 4
1  I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2  Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3  For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4  And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2 Cor 11
13  For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15  Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

1 Jhn 2
17  And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
18  Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19  They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20  But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21  I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22  Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23  Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
24  Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25  And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

Why is it that these that DO NOT believe one can have enternal life presently,  the same ones which twist God's Words.


Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:[ /b]

But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
So then death worketh in us, but life in you.
We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. (2 Cor 4:2-18)


If the "falling away" is the "rapture"??

How is it, a sign for believers on the earth, where with they should be comforted,

Those of Thessolinica, thought that the Day of Christ had come and gone and left them behind, the falling away is a sign that precedes the revelation of the man of sin, the son of perdition which to be followed by the second coming of Christ.


2 Th 2
3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.


Pre tribbers have the order backwards, the rapture ahead of the other two signs, note;

5  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Key verse in this passage is verse 8;  It is fullfilled at Rev 19:19-20


17  And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18  That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19  And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20  And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


The serpent is bound at this same time for a thousand years.


Blessings,

Petro
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Eddielee
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« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2004, 05:30:40 PM »

Question 2: When does the Rapture take place?

The answer to this question is found with a literal heurmaneutic applyed to Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 and 7.

Matthew 24:
21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.
26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29"Immediately after the distress of those days
   " 'the sun will be darkened,
       and the moon will not give its light;
   the stars will fall from the sky,
       and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

This account viewed from a straight forward heurmaneutic yields a basic timeline of events:
-The worst times ever will occur, the greatest persecution of believers that there will ever be.
-False messiahs will appear.
-The sun will be darkened, the moon will not shine.
-The Son of Man will come in the sky, a trumpet will be blown and angels will gather the saints.

Compairing these attributes of the events preceeding the rapture to Revelation 6:

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.
12I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"


These events seem just like what Jesus said in Matthew 24, and the wrath of God has come upon the earth beginning after the 6th seal. At this point some mention of the rapture should appear, if this is the same time line spoken of in Matthew 24.

Revelation 7:
9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb.... 13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes--who are they, and where did they come from?"
14I answered, "Sir, you know."
15And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."


This event seems to meld well with the timeline of Matthew 24, the great multitude being the raptured saints gathered from the earth to the sky, then placed before God's throne.
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Petro
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« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2004, 10:24:52 AM »

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means:


 As long as there are Christians on the earth, satan can not make a physical appearance. Once we are gone, he arrives.




This is the deception.

I suspect the great apsotasy, has begun, by the believing of this deception.

It is no secret;  the reason why Satan arrives on the earth is because he is thrown out of heaven down to earth; presently  he, is being restrained by Michael and His army in the heavenlies, where there is war.

Satan cannot not be in two places at once, since he is NOT omnipresent, thou his influence  does reign thru his ministers on the earth.

Upon his coming to earth, he will begin persecution, which leads to the great triobulation.

Rev 12
9  .........."the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
12  ............... Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13  And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14  And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15  And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16  And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This is the great tribulation which occurs on the earth, and it is brought about by Satan, not God.



Blessings,

Petro
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« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2004, 02:18:55 AM »

  Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  

The people who actually see the abomination of desolation are identified in the next verse, it's the Jews (not Christians)


  Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:  

 
 Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:  


  Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,  


  Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

 This verse (above) also mentions Tribulation for every man that doeth evil. So we are spared from both wrath and Tribulation.


 Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:  

 Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.  


 Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.  

 Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.

 Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

 1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Petro.

I will not disrespect you by posting verses such as ...

 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4  And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
... like you so often do, and simply because you believe you are blessed with eternal knowledge and ultimate truth. You are human, you are not perfect and you may be wrong about this Rapture thing. I may be wrong, that's one reason why I don't post verses that target people who have opposing opinions to mine as being lustful etc...that is judging my friend, and Jesus warns us about that.

 Take care Petro.

Bronzesnake.
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« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2004, 03:30:14 PM »

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  

The people who actually see the abomination of desolation are identified in the next verse, it's the Jews (not Christians)


bronzesnake,

That is not altogether a true statement.  The following verse does not say that at all.


Note;

Quote
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:  

The word "them" only applies to them which be in Judea

The ones being identified, at verse 16, are defined at verse 5 to whom Jesus says;

Take heed lest any man deceive you: vs 4.  But, The elect will not be decieved concerning this matter; according to Jesus at verse 24.



and at verse 15,  He says;

"ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,"

Who are the "ye" of verse 15??

ALL those who can be deceived ............. which are included in verse 4, only if one, takes Gods word and arbitrarily decides to divided the hearers of it, into distinctive groups, can one make the verse say what you have interpreted it to say;..............who can be decieved.

The parallel passage, states is clearer at Mk 13:14-16;

Verse 15 and 16, are understood in verse 14 to apply only to them which be in Judea, and does not apply to others which are not.

We understand this clearly, because we understand that the elect[/color] of Mat 24:21-22, applies to the church, since the Apostle Paul defines who the elect are;  notice;

Rom 8
33  Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34  Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

The elect are those whom Gods has justified in Christ;.. freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
(Rom 3:24-25.

So, As you can see, thou Mat 24:16, may be speaking about Jews who are in Judea, it does not exclude non-jew elect who are included herein, by the same token, verse 15 does not exclude non-jews at all, therefore, your statement is erroneous, Mat 24:15 is speaking of Gods elect which includes Jews as well as non Jews, who shall seethe abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet,


 




I agree, Everything you have posted beyond this point, includes Jews and Non-Jews;


Quote

 Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:  


  Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,  


  Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

 This verse (above) also mentions Tribulation for every man that doeth evil. So we are spared from both wrath and Tribulation.


 Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:  

 Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.  


 Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.  

 Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.

 Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

 1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Petro.

I will not disrespect you by posting verses such as ...

 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4  And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.  

We need to separate scripture from what are our own opiniuons;

You said;



Quote
[/b]... like you so often do, and simply because you believe you are blessed with eternal knowledge and ultimate truth. You are human, you are not perfect and you may be wrong about this Rapture thing. I may be wrong, that's one reason why I don't post verses that target people who have opposing opinions to mine as being lustful etc...that is judging my friend, and Jesus warns us about that.

 Take care Petro.

Bronzesnake.

bronzesnake;

Part of being a christian to is to not give credence to nor  advance error,  I have shown you, how it begins and how some then will take the error and advance it.

It is better not to say anything than to take scripture and use it in a way to deceive, all because of twisting, re-interpreting and changing verses to make it apply to our own personal understanding.

There is enough of that going on with the cults, they do not need our help.

Blessings,

Petro
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« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2004, 01:01:11 PM »

Petro...

Quote
Rom 8
33  Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34  Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

The elect are those whom Gods has justified in Christ;.. freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; (Rom 3:24-25.

So, As you can see, thou Mat 24:16, may be speaking about Jews who are in Judea, it does not exclude non-jew elect who are included herein, by the same token, verse 15 does not exclude non-jews at all, therefore, your statement is erroneous, Mat 24:15 is speaking of Gods elect which includes Jews as well as non Jews, who shall seethe abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet,

 Of course you are correct.


 I should have added Jews and non believers. But, my point is made...The verse describes Jews and non believers (unsaved) because Christians are not there to see the abomination of desolation.

Quote
"ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,"

Who are the "ye" of verse 15??

ALL those who can be deceived ............. which are included in verse 4, only if one, takes Gods word and arbitrarily decides to divided the hearers of it, into distinctive groups, can one make the verse say what you have interpreted it to say;..............who can be deceived.

Quote
Take heed lest any man deceive you: vs 4.  But, The elect will not be decieved concerning this matter; according to Jesus at verse 24.
Those who can be deceived surely are not saved by Christ...right? Therefore, only Jews, and those who can be deceived (by your own admission)

 You don't believe in the pre-trib Rapture, so you can not understand that there will be many who miss the rapture, those who were deceived because they were not saved by Christ. They must endure the tribulation...they in essence, become the "elect" and those are the ones spoken of in Mat. 24:24.

 Why do you suppose there are so many verses in the Bible such as the many I posted in my last entry that speak of God's children not being appointed to tribulation or wrath? Was God wrong? of course He wasn't, the saved believers are Raptured before the Tribulation and Wrath just like God promised, but the reason He doesn't destroy those left behind right away is because He wants to give those left behind a final opportunity to realize the Bible is correct, and many will finally believe this because they will wittiness the horrors that the Bible describe about the Wrath and Tribulation. Many will turn their lives over to Jesus during that time, and they will be hunted and in many cases killed for their testimony and faith in Christ. Then, we will all return with Christ from Heaven back to the earth as is described in Rev 19:14. If there is no Rapture, then how is it that we appear out of the sky with Jesus as He returns back to Earth to destroy evil?

Take care Petro my brother, and in all the honesty and humility that I can draw on, I must tell you that you are just plain wrong on this one my friend.

Bronzesnake.
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« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2004, 12:11:35 PM »

bronzesanke,

Look, it is useless for you to try and divide the saints into categories, arbitrarily..

Doing this, just simply shows ignorance of what the Scriptures teach. Only by forcing the bible to interpret their theory, can pre tribbers, reach their conclusion, begun in 1830 by Margaret MacDonald.

Which is exactly, what pre tribbers do, they use the word church to divide, Pre Trib raptured saints, from Tribulation Saints, claiming the Pre Trib Raptured Saints are members of Christ Body the Chruch, while the Tribulation Saints are not members of the Body of Christ the Church, even going as far as to teach, that the union (wedding) feast of the Pre Trib Raptured Saints, members of Christ body, raptured before the begining of the tribulation occurs during the time of  Tribulation on  the earth, while other (members of His body) Tribulation Saints are experiencing it.

Then to complicate and unravel their doctrine, they claim, that these Tribulation saints will return with Him to the earth and reign with Him, 1000 years, along with the pre trib raptured saints.

The problem which pre tribbers seem to be blind to, is that their doctrine has TWO resurrections of the righteous, according to this theory, while the Bible only teaches ONE resurrection of the Saints that return with Him, at Rev 20:4-6.

1.  At the pre trib rapture at the secret coming of Jesus.

2.  and,  Towards the end of the great tribulation, at Jesus Second visible and physical Coming.

(Some pre tribbers teach, that both those who sleep are resurrected and those who are alive at the secret coming (who are changed in the twinkling of an eye) are taken back to heaven where they spend 7 years with Jesus, during which time the church (the bride of Christ) is wedded to Him,  during this time also there will be the judgement seat of Christ and Crowns will be given out to the faithfull.)

(Another camp within the pre trib doctrine, teaches, that only those alive at Jesus secret coming are raptured after they are changed in a twinkling of an eye, those that sleep in Christ will be resurrected at Jesus Second visible and physical Coming.) [How these reconcile the wedding feast, is another matter]

Both of these positions are false, and are contrary to Biblical teaching concerning the Rapture at His second coming.

Some such as Paul2, 2d Tim, and BEP, who embrace the pre trib position even would argue that proof that the pre trib position is valid, is because the church is not mentioned beyond Rev 4, this is nonsense..

It is a ridiculous assumption, and unfortunately for the pre trib teaching, the word Saints is used to identify  who the Church is comprised of.



In simple English, the church is made up of those members who are the; The Called, Chosen, Elect Saintsin all dispensations. OT Saints, possessed the indwelling Holy Spirit, just as NT Saints , some where indwelt by the Holy Spirit for specific tasks,  all are known to God, and belong to Christ.


Unfortunately you have entered this discussion late, and are not even aware of How it began;

Perhaps you can define who The Called, Chosen, Elect Saints  are??

Are you able to??

If you can, please do so.

None of the other Pre Tribulationists on this forum,  have adequately defined who these are, thus far..

I don't believe anyone can discuss anything about any Rapture, unless they define who these Called, Chosen, Elect Saints are ..................  and, how they impact the understanding of who is raptured and when...

If you cannot define who these are, this explains why, you subscribe to such a doctrine.

Defining and understanding who these are will determine who is wrong about what...........

Petro
« Last Edit: April 21, 2004, 12:28:03 PM by Petro » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2004, 04:22:52 PM »

Hello Petro my brother...

 
Quote
Doing this, just simply shows ignorance of what the Scriptures teach. Only by forcing the bible to interpret their theory, can pre tribbers, reach their conclusion, begun in 1830 by Margaret MacDonald.

 Your showing your ignorance my friend. Perhaps you should educate yourself.

Here is a statement from Pseudo-Ephraem's sermon On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World.8

 "All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins. -Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)"

The Premillennial Kingdom of God as
Taught by Joseph Mede, The Key of the Revelation, 1627

Rev. Joseph Mede wrote an extremely important comentary about the book of Revelation in 1627 entitled The Key of the Revelation that upheld the ancient apostolic Church's premillennial teaching regarding Christ returning to earth to defeat the Antichrist and to establish His literal one thousand year kingdom of God:

"Whatsoever almost is found from the Jews, whatsoever is delivered by the Lord in His Gospel, or any where in the New Testament by the Apostles concerning the day of the great judgement; that is taken out of this vision of Daniel [Daniel 7]; to wit, that judement to be accomplished by fire, Christ to come in the clouds of heaven, to come in the glory of His Father with multitude of Angels, the Saints with Him to judge the earth, Antichrist to be abolished 'with the brightness of His coming', etc. So that they go about wholly to undermine the pillar of the Evangelical Faith concerning the glorious coming of Christ, who neglecting the ancient tradition of the Church, endeavour to turn this prophecy to another end." (Joseph Mede, The Key of the Revelation, 1627)

"The kingdom therefore which neither shall be as before the appearance of our Lord, nor after the last resurrection, is necessarily to be concluded between them." (Joseph Mede, The Key of the Revelation, 1627)


Take care Petro my brother...

Bronzesnake
« Last Edit: April 21, 2004, 04:26:38 PM by Bronzesnake » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2004, 04:25:30 PM »

Why Do Some Teach that the Church will Endure the Tribulation?

From TRIUMPHANT RETURN
by Grant R. Jeffrey


Several incorrect premises have caused some to reject the pretribulation Rapture and accept the position called the "postribulation Rapture." The first premise is an emotional contention that it would be unfair for the modern Church to escape to heaven scot free to escape the martyrdom that other believers have experienced. While it is easy to understand such an emotion, it would be wrong to deny the doctrine of the pretribulation Rapture on this basis alone. The reality is that while many Christians have endured tremendous persecutions and tribulations, untold millions of believers have lived out their lives in times of peace. Furthermore, all of those Christians who died in either peace or persecution throughout history have already escaped the Great Tribulation.

An underlying attitude of many critics is their inorrect and unscriptural belief that the Church will somehow be purified by enduring the wrath of the Antichrist. However, the Scriptures declare that we are purified solely by the completed work of Christ on the Cross. If the Lord delays His return much longer, the rising tide of persecution of Christians affect the Church across the world. However, this will not constitute the Tribulation period which will be characterized by the wrath of God poured out from heaven on the unrepentant sinners during the final seven years of this age. Some critics have claimed that those who teach the hope of the pretribulation rapture are leaving Christians unprepared for the possibility of the coming persecution of the Tribulation period. However, in thirty-five years of teaching Bible prophecy, I have not witnessed pretribulation Rapture teachers instructing Christians that they are immune from end-time persecution. The prophecy teachers, myself included, who believe God promises that Christians will escape "wrath of God" in the Tribulation often warn believers that persecution is coming, even in North America, if the Lord tarries much longer. However, the postribulation Rapture position can rob the Church of her blessed hope. Jesus promised, "I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Revelation 3:10).

The second and more important reason why some are teaching that the Church will be present during this terrible time is the failure to distinguish between God's plan for Israel and His plan for the Church, especially in the prophecy revealed by Christ in Matthew 24. They often acknowledge that there is strong biblical evidence for a pretribulation Rapture; however, they inevitably come back to their interpretation of Matthew 24, which seems to indicate that the Rapture follows the events of the Great Tribulation.

In the passage in Matthew 24, Christ is on the Temple Mount explaining to His Jewish disciples the events that will occur in Israel and in other nations that will lead to the return of Christ as their Jewish Messiah. The disciples' question that Jesus was answering concerned the coming of Israel's long-promised Kingdom, not the coming of Christ for His Church (which they did not even know about). It is easy to forget that, at this point, before the crucifixion of our Lord and the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, there was no such thing as a Christian Church. If you had told one of the disciples during the week before Christ's crucifixion that someday there would be an organization based on Christ's teachings, called the Church, and that 99 percent of its members would be uncircumcised Gentiles who would follow neither Jewish law nor offer Temple sacrifices, he would probably have fallen off his chair in shock and disbelief. One of the classic mistakes in interpretation is to take this conversation between Christ and His Jewish disciples concerning the messianic kingdom and read back into it the reality of the Christian Church which did not come into existence until the Jews rejected Christ and God breathed life into His Body of believers.

Since Christ does not mention the Church to His disciples in this conversation, the plain interpretation is that Israel is the primary focus of the Prophecy of Matthew 24. Matthew 24 speaks of the Great Tribulation, and beginning at verse 15, Christ states that the Antichrist will set up the "abomination of desolation" (a supernatural statue of the Antichrist) to be worshiped in the Temple. In verses 40 and 41, Jesus says, "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left." A vital question for students of the Bible is the identity of these people who "shall be taken." Does this prophecy refer to the Church or does it reveal God's plans for the Tribulation saint who become believers after the Rapture?

This chapter tells us that at the end of the Great Tribulation, God will send His angels and "they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (verse 31). These "elect" are the people who become believers during the Great Tribulation of three and one-half years. This gathering together is not the Rapture. This gathering of Tribulation believers takes place at the end of the Tribulation, whereas the Rapture of the Church occurs sometime prior to the beginning of the Great Tribulation when Antichrist sets himself up as "God" in the Temple. Notice that the angels "gather the elect" (verse 31), whereas, at the time of the Rapture, "The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first" (1 Thessalonians 4:16--17). This gathering of the "elect" Tribulation saints will occur at the conclusion of three and one-half years --- a period of time for which there are the most detailed prophecies found in the Bible.

The Bible describes many Tribulation events that must occur prior to the "gathering" of the Tribulation saints and thus, it cannot be correctly described as "imminent." These facts have caused many scholars to believe that this "gathering" is, therefore, a different event than the "Rapture" of the Church. However, when we turn our attention to the coming of Christ for His Church, we find that there are no warnings or signals given to indicate the time of the Rapture. The Rapture can literally occur at any time.

The third reason postribulationist writers have attacked the pretribulation Rapture doctrine by claiming that it cannot be true because no Church writer or Reformer ever taught this doctrine until approximately 170 years ago until it was introduced by John Darby, a Plymouth Brethren. Their argument that no one ever saw this "truth" throughout eighteen hundred years of Church history has been very effective, causing many Christians to abandon their belief in the pretribulation Rapture. The only problem is that their assertion that no one in the early Church taught the pretribulation Rapture has been found to be incorrect.

Obviously the truth about the time of the Rapture can be found only in Scripture. The Protestant Reformation was based essentially on this return to the authority of the Bible. The Latin phrase sola Scriptura, meaning "Scripture alone" became the rallying cry of the Reformers who ignored centuries of tradition and church councils in their insistence that truth could only be discovered in the Word of God. While the resolution of this issue must be based on our interpretation of Scripture, it is important to answer the errors of our opponents, who disparage "the blessed hope" of the Rapture with misinformation about the modern rediscovery of the truth about the pretribulation Rapture.

A Discovery that the Pretribulation Rapture Was Taught in the Early Church

During the summer of 1994, after more than a decade of searching, I discovered several fascinating manuscripts that contain clear evidence of the teaching of the pre-tribulation rapture in the early church.

Ephraem's Teaching on the Pretribulation Rapture

For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373)

The early Christian writer and poet, Ephraem the Syrian, (A.D. 306 - 373) was a major theologian of the early Byzantine Eastern Church. He was born near Nisbis, in the Roman province of Syria, near present-day Edessa, Turkey. Ephraem's fascinating teaching on the Antichrist has never been published in English until I wrote FINAL WARNING in 1995. Some scholars suggested that this manuscript was written several centuries later (5th or 6th century) but definitely before the birth of Islam in 622. However William Bousset, one of the greatest scholars on ancient eschatology, concluded in his book The Antichrist Legend that it was written by Ephraem the Syrian before A.D. 373.1 Andrew R. Anderson wrote in his book Alexander's Gate that he accepted the early date as being valid.2

This critically important prophecy manuscript from the fourth century of the Church era reveals a very clear statement about the pretribulational return of Christ to take His elect saints home to heaven to escape the coming Tribulation.
1. William Bousset, The Antichrist Legend, trans. A. H. Keane (London: Hutchinson & Co., 1896)

2. Andrew R. Anderson, Alexander's Gate: Gog and Magog and the Enclosed Nations. Monographs of the Mediaeval Academy of America, no. 5. (Cambridge, MA.: Mediaeval Academy of America, 1932)

The above is an excerpt taken from Grant Jeffrey's  new release,

Triumphant Return

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« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2004, 08:21:06 PM »

Why Do Some Teach that the Church will Endure the Tribulation?

From TRIUMPHANT RETURN
by Grant R. Jeffrey


Several incorrect premises have caused some to reject the pretribulation Rapture and accept the position called the "postribulation Rapture."



bronzesanke,

The Post Tribulation rapture position is not the same  as Pre Wrath rapture position, don't confuse them.

This is the same mistake, pre tirbbers HAVE MADE ON THIS FORUM.

I use the the name "Pre Wrath" to bolster the Pre Millennial teaching subscribed to by the early church fathers, and for a the lack of a better word;  Pre Wrath describes it perfectly since it is Pre Mill.

It is not Mid Trib, since it is after the 1260 days subscribed to by Mid Tribbers, and it is not Post Trib because Post trib clearly is defined as "after the End of the Tribulation".

Your article does nothing to bolster your position, in fact it doesn't even apply, I fail to see, what your point is.

Petro


PS,  I also made it clear, what I am speaking of, is not the modern day version espoused by Rosenthal, a new teaching presented in the last 10 years or so.

And to confuse you further, let me reiterate what I stated earlier; and that is that the Mid Trib position is closer to the Pre Wrath, the the Pre Trib theory.


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« Last Edit: April 21, 2004, 08:27:33 PM by Petro » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2004, 08:54:32 PM »

Quote
posted by bronzesanke at reply #11

The Premillennial Kingdom of God as
Taught by Joseph Mede, The Key of the Revelation, 1627



Geeeshh............this must be news to you...

Your article entiled,

"The Premillenial Kingdom of God ......"  doesn’t even shore up your pre trib theory, it simply  proves my point about pre tribbers, not being familiar with the biblical teaching of the subject.

Pre Millennial is not Pre Trib and never was.

Mid Trib and Pre Wrath are Pre Mill.............so whats your point??

The early church fathers taught a Pre Millennial Rapture, and always in the context of Jesus Second Coming and in the light of Gods Wrath, being poured out at His Coming.

The seventieth week of Dan. 9 was seen as future and close up to the Second Coming by the earliest church fathers who wrote in detail on prophecy. Montgomery (ICC on Daniel, p. 394) notes that this “apocalyptic” reading of the last period of seven years is the one found in the gospels, and it is adopted by Irenaeus and Hippolytus.

Commodianus refers to a future and final antichrist in these words:

“Isaiah said, ‘this is the man who moves the world and so many kings and under whom the land will become a desert’… Then, doubtless the world will be finished when he appears. He himself will divide the globe into three ruling powers, when however, Nero will be raised up from hell, Elijah will first come to seal the beloved ones; at which things the region of Africa [King of the South?] and the northern nations [King of the North?], the whole earth on all sides will tremble for seven years. But Elijah will occupy half of the time and Nero the other half. Then the whore Babylon, being reduced to ashes, its embers will then advance to Jerusalem; and the Latin conqueror will then say,”

‘I am Christ whom you always pray to.’

“And indeed the original ones who were deceived combine to praise him. He does many wonders since he is the false prophet. Especially that they may believe him his image will speak. The Almighty has given it power to appear such. The Jews, recapitulating Scriptures from him, exclaim at the same time to the Highest that they have been deceived…Moreover, when the tyrant will dash himself against the army of God, his soldiery are overthrown by the celestial terror; the false prophet himself is seized with the wicked one, by the decree of the Lord. They are handed over alive to Gehenna” (The Instructions of Commodianus, chs. 41, 42).

Paul at 1 Cor 15:15-23, knows nothing of a secret pre trib appearing of Jesus to rapture the church, he writes;

15  Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16  For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17  And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18  Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19  If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20  But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


In order to understand verse 23 in the lite of verse 20, one must understand the OT teaching of the Feast of Harvests, the firstfruits Ex 23 and Lev 23.

According to verse 20  ......Jesus is become the firstfruits of them that slept,  

Who are these being spoken of "of them that slept"??

Don't get confused and say, that the firstfruits is the church, clearly verse 20, puts this matter to rest, "Jesus has become the firstfruits" , this does not include any other, but Christ himself.

Now look at the order of their resurrection preceding those who are alive at His Second Coming; Paul continues even revealing the mystery, for you;

51  Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

He even tells you, it will occur at the sounding of the seventh and last trumpet.

It can't be made mo plain than that.

What about the Called, Chosen, Elect Saints ??



Petro  



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