AV,
  I was really impressed with your op.  Not that I was cheering you on, mostly just agreeing because contending for the faith has become a wishy washy "unity at all costs" theology.  Oh sure, there are exceptions, but the general rule is love, unconditionally [this is NOT a Scriptural teaching at all].
  So, I was rather surprised when you backed down so quickly, not really understanding your current stand on the church today in light of your op.
   I was one of those people who went from church to church to church to church, seeking for one that "was close".  Then I realized, I was not looking for perfection, I was looking for leadership that was truly looking to run the race, casting aside hindrences.
    The problem with "church", is that the pastor carries the full weight of its theology or doctrines.  What he speaks is rarely challenged or questioned.  If some brave soul dares approach him/her, their observations are soon put to rest by condensation and the "dare not touch the anointed" looks and inuendo concerning your intelligence.  Been there, done that so many times, I have many scars from the door hitting me on the backside on my way out  
     What I have observed in my travels throughout churchdom [53 years worth - I retired from church 3 years ago  ] is that the pastor went to theological school.  He paid to get his education in the Bible.  Those of us who did not go to seminary are the "laymen".  Therefore; how dare we expect to know more than or are able to discuss any Biblical matter with any intellengce or authority with "the Pasor".  Pastors are untouchable.    One church I went to, the Sr Pastor had body guards so people wouldn't "bother" him.
   
All of that puts me, in my humble opinion, at odds with Scripture.

Not just the actions or presumed authority, but what comes out of the man's mouth.  If a man preaches against what is in God's Word or adds to it, my responsibility is to withdraw.  It is not up to me to "correct" him.  The Matt 18 scenario does not fit here, imho.  There is no way on God's green earth I would EVER approach a pastor alone.  Talk about setting yourself up.  I have also found that God does not ask us or instruct us to stick around cause no one is perfect in their theology.  If a pastor is not open to correction from a lay person, it is time to leave.
    This is one of the reasons the church is in lethargy.  Iron sharpens iron is like plastic picnic ware in the pew today.  The choice of modern translations quoted from the pulpit is enough to turn my stomach.  So, my position is to study on my own, and to let God put people in my life who are serious about His Word.
    I am not saying I am some spiritual giant that cannot learn.  I am simply saying, I am tired of discussions with those who are close minded, and use unauthoritive scriptures for their source and then wonder why their theology is skewed.
    So much for my soapbox  . . .  

shalom, nana  

     
     
     

Evangelist wrote:
When Jesus "descended", He did not go into the lower section, and preach to those who already stood condemned as unrighteous (it is appointed ONCE to man to die, THEN the judgment). He went into the section called Paradise (He said unto the thief, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise).

There He "preached" or presented Himself and His sacrifice to the OT "saints" who were there, and led them FROM there to heaven, where they now reside.

Nana:
I wondered if you would please provide scriptural proof for this.  Thanx  

M wrote:
I need to understand something and I don't know if this is the verse I am looking for.
How could righteous Jews (or other people) who obeyed God's commandments and lived and died before Jesus's resurrection be saved?  

I have heard many theories on this subject but I want to know the scriptural truth if possible.

Nana:
Salvation for OT people was the same as for NT ones.  It was belief/faith in Messiah.  Obedience to God's commandments did not render one righteous then, nor does it today.

Hebrews 11 [read the whole chapter  ]
1 ¶ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders [OT believers] obtained a good report.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him , for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out into a place which he was afterward going to receive for an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he went.
9 By faith he lived in the land of promise as a stranger, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs of the same promise with him.
10 For he looked for a city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
13 These all died by way of faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off. And they were persuaded of them and embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they who say such things declare plainly that they seek a fatherland.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from which they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they stretch forth to a better fatherland , that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, did not receive the promise,
40 for God had provided some better thing for us, that they should not be made perfect without us.

The verse you are looking for is this one:

1 Peter 3:18 ¶ For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit;
19 in which also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 to disobeying ones, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared (in which a few, that is, eight souls were saved through water);
21 ¶ which figure now also saves us, baptism; not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ;
22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into Heaven, where the angels and authorities and powers are being subjected to Him.

In my opinion   this passage is not referring to Jesus preaching to those who were dead back in the days of Noah.  Once you are dead, there is no opportunity for salvation.  Faith in Jesus is a living faith while you are alive.  I believe "those in prison" is a reference to those who are dead in sin - before salvation.  

The comparison is to Noah and how they were "baptized" in water - the flood - and saved.  So too, when we accept Jesus as Messiah, we are baptized into Him for He is the Living Water or "baptism"

Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling,
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in you all.

I also do not believe that Jesus descended into hell after He died.  He uttered "It is finished" and then committed His Spirit to His Father in Heaven.  His human body was dead, but Jesus/His Spirit never died, therefore He could not be in hell.   He raised Himself from the dead.  To say that He went to hell, is to contridict His Word.

John 2:18 Then the Jews answered and said to Him, What sign do you show us, since you do these things?
19 Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then the Jews said, This temple was forty-six years building, and will you rear it up in three days?
21 But He spoke of the temple of His body.
22 Therefore when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them, and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.

John 10:15 Even as the Father knows Me, I also know the Father. And I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 And I have other sheep who are not of this fold. I must also lead those, and they shall hear My voice, and there shall be one flock, one Shepherd.
17 Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I might take it again.
18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down from Myself. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it again. I have received this commandment from My Father.


Col 2:13 ¶ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
14 blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross.
15 Having stripped rulers and authorities, He made a show of them publicly, triumphing over them in it.

One other note, and I think there is some confusion on this.  The Church, according to Acts [Steven's speech just before he was martyred] began at Mt Sinai when God gave the Mosaic Law.  Those who believed in the promised Messiah were considered righteous/believers even then [Heb 11].

When Jesus said to Peter that on "this Rock I will build My church"  He was referring to the reality that His Messiahship was, is, and always will be the foundation of the church.  He did not build His church on Peter.  If you do a word study, Peter's name is not the same word used for  "upon this Rock".

It is true that the church changed its function - Old covenant was to follow the Mosaic Law which was "proof" of "salvation".  Once Jesus came as the New Covenant - His shed blood - the Law was changed to the Law of Messiah - "a new commandment I give to you, that you love one another as I have loved you".  And as Paul and James both said - the Law is fulfilled in love.  Now the body of Messiah/the true church is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free.

Shalom, Nana

dmckay,
I really appreciate and agree with your perspective on the tongues issue. I am curious as to how you interpret the "personal or private" prayer language phenomenon that is present in today's charis/word of faith venue.  That teaching is hinged on 1 Cor 14:2, and other verses in the NT that state to "pray in the Spirit" [Jude 20 comes to mind, as well as Eph 6:18].

Thanx and shalom, Nana

And what prophecy might that be? - it's kind of difficult to redo what God already did    Jesus fulfilled it  

shalom, nana

thanx, Michael  

shalom, nana

sulpherdophin,
    do you have an original link that this article was posted from?  thanx.

shalom, nana

When you are speaking in tongues, you are not speaking from your heart.  You are uttering syllables that you have no understanding of. Deceptive spirits can cause a believer to utter a tongue that is ungodly and evil.

I have talked to people who have prayed in tongues and been in the hearing of a missionary who interprets the words and they are curses uttered against God.  The person that was speaking in tongues was convinced they were speaking as the Spirit gave utterance.

ps:  a believer is not necessarily a corrupt or a good tree.  the context of Matt 15 is in reference to a false teacher or prophet.

Shylynne wrote:
 But until then I'll continue to talk in unknown languages as the Spirit gives the utterance. .

nana:
how do you know you aren't blaspheming God when you pray in your tongue?

 

1 Timothy 4
1 ¶ But the Spirit expressly says that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons . . .

The gifts were primarily given as a sign to unbelievers.  I believe that most of the gifts of the spirit that are used today, are not like those in the NT, but an imitation - and therefore are from the enemy and not from God.

Most of what is billed/manisfested today as gifts of the Spirit cannot be found in Scripture, and therefore make them counterfeit.

shalom, nana

Nothing is real to you until you experience it, otherwise it's just hearsay.

nana:
and that is exactly why/how people get sucked into deception.  True faith is not seeing, but believing.
 
Jesus said, blessed are they who do not see, yet believe.

Spent all my youth in a penticostal church Dad a AofG preacher..... Boy was i suprised to find out heavenly language is not a scriptural term.

BINGO!!!  

Most of these "doctrines" get started by people who desire to offer "deep" revelatory "mysteries" that are for the spiritually elite - thus tickling the ears and making God's Word something that is full of mysticism and only those who are given specific "knowledge" of these things [via the Holy Spirit] and are given "light" while others are considered less spiritual, walking in "darkness".  
Been there, done that.  YUK . . .

shalom, nana

Gary,
  You are missing my point.  I did not say there wasn't a heavenly language, I said we do not speak one here.  If it is a heavenly language it is in Heaven, not on earth.  If it was a heavenly language on earth, it would no longer be heavenly

the tongues the disciples spoke was a dialect - a known language of a nation on earth.

tongues  #1100  glossa

1) the tongue, a member of the body, an organ of speech
2) a tongue
a) the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations

shalom, nana

Irene wrote:

Can I just come in here? What is meant here?

 1Co 14:1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
1Co 14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. NKJV

nana:
vs 1)  pursue love/charity, and desire things that are spiritual [the word gift does not appear in the original greek] but rather that you may prophesy - speak what God has given you, or it could mean to teach - per strong's

vs)  speaking in a tongue means speaking in a dialect that is known to those who speak that dialect, but if you speak and no one is there that understands or can interpret that dialect no one will understand him, but God, so it is a mystery to the speaker and the hearer.

vs 3 & 4)  But the one prophesying to men speaks for building up, and encouragement, and comfort.
4 The one speaking in a tongue builds himself up, but he prophesying builds up an assembly.

again, prophesying could mean teaching as well as words from God.  speaking in a tongue builds up someone because they are witnessing in an unknown tongue/dialect that they cannot understand, therefore, if no one understands the dialect, it is not building up the asssembly, but prophesying or teaching does build up the assembly because they understand the dialect.

ps: tongue means dialect - a known language, not a spiritual etherial angelic language.