Quote:
Each and every one of us that realise this  must    must      must    do our part to bring things back to where they should be. To realise that it is a pleasure to serve the Lord, to set our eyes on Him and then to se4rve Him with a pure and simple heart. If you are not in a position to preach or teach this to others then lead by example.

nana:
I am puzzled as to why this doctrine permeates Christianity - that the church will somehow rise in significance and glory in this age - "where they should be".  Can someone provide scriptural proof of this?

Is the church those who gather in brick buildings, or those who are spiritually united - and I don't mean ecumenical unity - I mean on the same page spiritually  ?

Why do you believe that going to, finding a, being part of the institutional church is considered "do not forsake assembling together?

shalom, nana

It is the Pastors responsibility to preach as the Lord leads them, too. Is it wrong to give a little milk with the meat or to give meat with the milk? A good Pastor, Preacher, etc., should go according to the needs of his congregation.

nana:
I am not sure what this has to do with the question.

 Was the orginal intent of the church to preach to the unsaved when it was gathered together?

If the church is supposed to be equipping the saints to stand, armed with God's armour, and to be a witness to the gospel - however God calls one to do that - I am wondering how the church, as it is today, fulfills that mandate?

What is the function of the church - to equip the saints or to keep them at arms length from the world?

A brief comment to clarify.

Generally speaking, I have noticed that the church seems to more interested in spending time in the locker room than on the field playing the game  

shalom, nana

original question:
1. Is the church supposed to preach to the unsaved at[sunday/saturday] gatherings?

AV wrote:
1. Yes, I believe it is the duty of the bishop, pastor, minister, etc. to be sensitive and be prepared to get the gospel in for the following reasons:
a. He should be aware that even some the most faithful members may stlll be unregenerate.
b. There could be visitors
c. Even the truly saved need to hear again the good news for reflection and review

nana:
perhaps I did not make my question clear.  Let me rephrase it.

Do you think the original intent of the church was to preach to the unsaved at a gathering of the assembly?

Could someone explain what part of Jesus went to hell if, while on the cross,  He committed His Spirit into the Hands of God, His Father.

thanx, nana

A couple of questions  

Is the church supposed to preach to the unsaved at[sunday/saturday] gatherings?

What is the function of the church - to equip the saints or to keep them separated from the world?

shalom, nana

cris wrote:

Jude:1:3 (partial)

"who were of old ordained to this condemnation"

What does this mean?

nana:
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction;

Matt 7:15 ¶ Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

1 Timothy 4
1 ¶ But the Spirit expressly says that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons,
2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, being seared in their own conscience,

2Thess 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already working, only he is now holding back until it comes out of the midst.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the breath of His mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming,
9 whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, so that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie,
12 so that all those who do not believe the truth, but delight in unrighteousness, might be condemned.

Oh, cris . . .

Please understand, that I know how grievous this is.  I have met and talked with many women who are in this position.  They have no where to turn.  It causes me such pain when I talk to them.  I try to help them, but you are so right - the enemy has done such a good job of keeping them in this kind of bondage.  The years of verbal abuse are nothing short of brainwashing and there is little self esteem and strength to make a go of it.  The husband is just too controlling and knows exactly how to manipulate the situation to his liking.

Ok, this is making me angry.  I am going to pm with you.  It's time to get serious and help this woman.

shalom, nana

thanx, cris, for bringing this thread to my attention.  It has been very interesting to read and see how people are responding.

I was married to a man like that.  Not quite as intense, but a manipulator and extremely verbally abusive.  Everyone thought he was a spiritual giant.  He hides his evil side very well, except from me and his kids.

Thankfully he left me because he could not control me and had no effect on me - but that was due to the grace of God.  I told him I was crazy and did he want to live with a woman who everyone knew was a "religious fanatic" and a nutcase?  He agreed and filed for divorce  

Thankfully our two daughters are married.  Unfortunately he is now using the same tactics against them.  I sit back and watch and listen and have seen them look at me in a new light with understanding.  So there is good in everything

My divorce cost me everything.  I lost every single friend I had.  I lost family members and even my own mother rejected me because it was "my fault".  She is also one of these psycho-pathic individuals who takes joy in controlling others and to the outside world - the church in particular - is a saint who's evil daughter refuses contact with her any more.

Back to the discussion.  

I totally understand everything in this scenario.  The point that cris is making is that the church has failed, abominably.  It takes the word of a smooth talker and manuipulator who knows how to play the part and talk the talk over the one who has been hurt and wounded.  Been there.  The church, not taking responsibility for the whole mess, is causing this family to turn to the world for help.

The world's system is only going to work in a very limited capacity.   It puts a way too small bandage on the cut which can never be healed.  

I don't have a solution other than trusting in God.  Only He can make a way when there seems to be no way.  We live in a cursed world that is overrun by evil and manipulation.  Only He can intercede. He will use the world to help, because the church has failed, but it is not His way at all.

shalom, nana

Thanx, Cris, for the words of affirmation.  I just got this in my mail box - it made me smile cause it was so timely.  God does provide in the most unusual ways at times  

Good For Us
by Chip Brogden

http://www.watchman.net/articles/good.html

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

"I will build My Church" (Matthew 16:18ff).

 We cannot build the Church, for Jesus is building it. Similarly, we cannot assemble ourselves together; the Lord has to do that as well. I am not saying we cannot have a meeting, but I am saying that a meeting is not what makes us the Church. There are many such meetings we can host or attend, but that does not make us the Church. People frequently ask me if I know where they can go to find fellowship. After examining them at length I determine that what they are really looking for is a meeting. Well, meetings are everywhere. You do not need me for that. I am afraid that I cannot recommend "meetings", I can only recommend brothers and sisters who love the Lord.

Now the Lord wants to assemble us together into a spiritual Temple, but if we look around it is clear that we are divided over several issues. We could go down the list and name them all. We could take time to talk about denominations, organizations, doctrines, beliefs, customs, and the like. We could draw up a list of one hundred or one thousand divisions, but the heart of the matter is this: have we seen the Lord? If we have seen the Lord then we do not need to see anything else: this revelation of Him is sufficient. And, if we have not seen the Lord, it is a waste of time to try and discuss anything else along the lines of doctrine or teaching.

Reba wrote:
We are just goofy people  We must rely on Christ  trust Him to His Word and trust He is building His church  just as HE said He would.


1 Peter 2:5-6
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
KJV

Eph 2:19-22

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
KJV

nana:
Thanx, Reba, for posting some wonderful scripts.  

If I may opinionated here - I believe those marvelous words of Paul were meant as a spiritual application. They do not refer to a literal building.  

The true body of Messiah crosses all denominational borders.  It has nothing to do with who goes to church on Sunday, but that group of world wide believers who are serving, loving, and communicating with God in a relationship that cannot be defined by a building or a literal group of people.

Since I have left the established church, I have found the most incredible believers online.  Many do not attend church either, but study and worship online and equip, support, and counsel each other in their area of serving in which God has called them to.

The beauty is the unity of Spirit - that building of the temple of God - a spiritual reality - are we not all the temple of the Holy Spirit?  There are no social events to get in the way.  No preacher to pay, no building fund, no programs, no "collections" just intense study of God's Word to keep that strong foundation and to be armed with God's armor.

The world is a mess.  They don't need church.  They need Jesus.  They need you and me one-on-one to be His hands and feet.

shalom, nana

AV - from your op:
Bottom line - I believe most of Christianity today is made up of unregenerate folks.  Because of the above we are living in the most carnal, weak, fleshly, worldly, unfruitful period of Christianity that there ever has been.  If you do not believe the above then one of two things is possible:
1. You are unregenerate.
2. You are regenerate but your standard of judgment is today’s “Christianity”.

AV [FEb 14]
What I was trying to say is that one should not stay out of church completely.  One can find a church somewhere that comes close to what they feel conscience would allow - we all know no local church is perfect - but I firmly believe God's method of ministering to believers is primarily through a local church.

What I was saying is we shouldn't let issues keep us out of a local church compeltely - especially if the issues are petty.

Of course the scriptures should be our authority on doctrinal matters.  Find one that is close - be patient - show forebearance and longsufferance and jump in and get to work!  


AV response to my post:
Thanks MalkyEL for your response and kind words - you mentioneed that I backed down later on - Im open to chat here - would you be so kind as to explain so I might get a chance to clarify.  I do agree with your post and we may be saying the same thing.

Nana:
I was referring to the other post in which you made the comment about finding one that's close.

Perhaps I am too much of a purist.  I spent too much time in the middle of politics and social activity and programs to edify the church goer, instead of reaching out.

My view of the body of Messiah is not the standard position of attending the brick building to either edify one-self or to be taught.  I do not believe the church today teaches.  It does not equip.  I am not amused sitting in the pew hearing teaching that does not equip me to stand.  Or being entertained.  Or by coersion to tithe.  Or by being judged because I am divorced.  Or by exclusion because I do not participate in church activities.

These things are not contending for the faith.   It is milk designed to keep the church attenders captive to a system that does not resemble the early church at all.

Sorry to sound negative.  I hear what you all are saying.  Being wounded by the establishment does not bear any weight on my perception of the church.  I simply shrugged it off and walked away.  No one is really interested in change.  This is why I liked your op. That is the bottom line - not sticking around picking through garbage to find the Truth - or something "close".

What God has called us to do is not waste time hanging around church.  The point of the "assembly" was to equip workers to go out and reach the lost, needy and hurting.  Breaking bread together was a simple meal where people shared their needs, that were taken care of immediately, equipping was done by intense study and prayer, and then all went to the Temple to witness and testify to the Good News of Jesus Christ.

There was no paid pastor, no choir, no sunday school, no pews, no tithing, no church meetings and budgets.

Of course I have shot myself in the foot with my hard stand.  I am in a ministry of one with zero support.  So my time is spent serving as God has called me.  Without the church, who really doesn't give a rip about me or what I do.  Does that sound like sour grapes?  Perhaps to you - for me it is simply the truth, the cold hard facts of life.  Jesus said it would not be easy.  We are not on a gravy train.  If we are His, we will suffer for what we do.  What I did not understand, is that we would suffer the most from the church itself.

shalom, nana

sorry, double post