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Many people tell us "but the Bible clearly says that Jesus is the Son of God. How can you say that Jesus is not God's only begotten son when Jesus says it so clearly in black and white in the Bible?" Well, first of all, as seen in the previous section, we first need to know the language of his people, the language of the Jews to whom he was speaking. Let us see how they understood this proclamation.

Let us begin by asking: How many sons does the Bible tell us that God Almighty has?

Jacob is God's son and firstborn: "Israel is my son, even my firstborn" Exodus 4:22.
Solomon is God's son "He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son": 2 Samuel 7:13-14.
Ephraim is God's firstborn: "for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Jeremiah 31:9 (who is God's firstborn? Israel or Ephraim?).
Adam is the son of God "Adam, which was the son of God." Luke 3:38.
Common people (you and me) are the sons of God: "Ye are the children of the LORD your God" Deuteronomy 14:1. "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" Romans 8:14. "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:" John 1:12. "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15. "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: ... now are we the sons of God" 1 John 3:1-2. "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Job 38:7. "Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD," Job 2:1. "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD," Job 1:6. "when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men," Genesis 6:4. "That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair" Genesis 6:2
As we can see, the use of the term "son of God" when describing normal human beings was not at all an uncommon practice among Jesus' people.
Well then, was Jesus the only begotten son of God? Read Psalms 2:7"I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me (King David, King), Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."

Indeed, the Jews are even referred to as much more than this in the Bible, and this is indeed the very trait which Jesus (pbuh) held against them. When the Jews picked up stones to stone Jesus (pbuh) he defended himself with the following words "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, 'I said, Ye are gods?' If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken..." John 10:34: (he was referring to Psalms 82:6 "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High..")

As we can see from these and many other verses like them, "son of God" in the language of the Jews was a very innocent term used to describe a loyal servant of God. Whether the translators and editors chose to write it as "Son of God" (with a capital S) in reference to Jesus and "son of God" (with a small S) in reference to everyone else does not diminish the fact that in the original language, both cases are exactly the same. Are we beginning to see what drove the most learned men of the Anglican Church to recognize the truth? But let us move on.

Grolier's encyclopedia, under the heading "Jesus Christ," says: "During his earthly life Jesus was addressed as rabbi and was regarded as a prophet. Some of his words, too, place him in the category of sage. A title of respect for a rabbi would be "my Lord." Already before Easter his followers, impressed by his authority, would mean something more than usual when they addressed him as "my Lord.".... it is unlikely that the title "Son of David" was ascribed to him or accepted by him during his earthly ministry. "Son of God," in former times a title of the Hebrew kings (Psalms 2:7), was first adopted in the post-Easter church as an equivalent of Messiah and had no metaphysical connotations (Romans 1:4). Jesus was conscious of a unique filial relationship with God, but it is uncertain whether the Father/Son language (Mark 18:32; Matt. 11:25-27 par.; John passim) goes back to Jesus himself" .

There seems to be only two places in the Bible where Jesus (pbuh) refers to himself as "son of God." They are in John chapters 5 and 11. Hastings in "The dictionary of the Bible" says: "Whether Jesus used it of himself is doubtful." Regardless, we have already seen what is meant by this innocent title. However, Jesus is referred to as the "son of Man" (literally: "Human being") 81 times in the books of the Bible.

In the Gospel of Barnabas, we are told that Jesus (pbuh) knew that mankind would make him a god after his departure and severely cautioned his followers from having anything to do with such people.

Jesus was not the son of a human man (according to both the Bible and the Qur'an). However, we find him constantly saying "I am the son of man." Why? It was because in the language of the Jews, that is how you say "I am a human being."

What was he trying to tell us by constantly repeating and emphasizing to us throughout the New Testament "I am a human being," "I am a human being," "I am a human being"?. What had he foreseen? Think about it!

Do Christians emphasize this aspect of Jesus? The New Testament Greek word translated as "son" are "pias" and "paida" which mean "servant," or "son in the sense of servant." These are translated to "son" in reference to Jesus and "servant" in reference to all others in some translations of the Bible (see below). As we are beginning to see, one of the most fundamental reasons why Jesus (pbuh) is considered God is due to extensive mistranslation. We shall see more and more examples of this throughout this book.

Islam teaches that Jesus (pbuh) was a human being, not a god. Jesus (pbuh) continually emphasized this to his followers throughout his mission. The Gospel of Barnabas also affirms this fact.

Once again, Grolier's encyclopedia says: "...Most problematical of all is the title "Son of Man." This is the only title used repeatedly by Jesus as a self-designation, and there is no clear evidence that it was used as a title of majesty by the post-Easter church. Hence it is held by many to be authentic, since it passes the criterion of dissimilarity."

ok, first off. Christ was called the Son of Man, because the Messiah was to be called the Son of Man, according to Jewish Tradition. The Messiah was to be a great military human leader, lead by God, according to the Jews. However, what they failed to see, was that the Messiah would save the Jews, but that the Messiah would BE GOD. Hence John the Apostle hit it right on the head when he wrote "In the Beginning was the Word, and the WOrd was with God, and the Word was God" Jesus is God, and His designation as the "Son of God" has 2 meanings. He is God, meaning He came from God, and is part of God. 2. that He is of the Order of God. the phrase "son of" in the Hebrew, means 2 things. "The son of ...... being the child, or offspring of" or "The son of ...being of the order of." The former is most commonly used to describe humans in geneological order. the latter, most commonly describing "of the Order of" The latter was used in describing Ezekiel. Over 90 times, Ezekiel is called the son of man. hence describing his human side. Christ is called the Son of God in both senses. I wish i had more time to write, but i must cut it short. i hope what I've said makes sense. God Bless.

Joshua

Jesus is God. In Him dwells the fulness of the Godhead bodily. As the brother said "in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God."
And beyond controversy, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Christ is the mystery of God, and the Church is the mystery of Christ. And Christ and the Church together is a great mystery. He that is joined to the Lord is one spirit.

Col.2:2My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ,
9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

Eph 3:4In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets. 6This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Eph 5:32This is a profound [great] mystery–but I am talking about Christ and the church.

1 Cor 6:... he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

How can you say Christ is not God!

If He were a mere man how can we live in Him?

2 Cor 5:17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

asaph

Sixpack434,

1.  God, the Father, is Almighty God - THE CREATOR!

2.  God, the Son, is Almighty God - THE CREATOR!

3.  God, the Holy Spirit, is Almighty God - THE CREATOR!

The 3 are 1 - Almighty God - THE CREATOR!

From cover to cover, the Holy Bible proves it!

Jesus Christ was Almighty God for eternity past, is Almighty God now, and will remain Almighty God for eternity future. Jesus Christ was NOT created because HE is THE CREATOR. Jesus Christ was NOT made into a God by men because HE was Almighty God before the foundation of the world HE CREATED. Jesus Christ has no beginning and has no end, simply because HE is and always has been Almighty God - THE CREATOR!

Jesus Christ humbled HIMSELF and took the form of a man on this earth to die on the CROSS for us. HE was the ONLY perfect sacrifice WHO could rescue us from the curse of sin and death. HE arose from the dead and is our LIVING LORD AND SAVIOUR FOREVER! This is God's perfect GIFT to us. Believing this and having faith in Jesus Christ - ALMIGHTY GOD - is our only SALVATION. There is no other way. Without this belief and faith, the person is lost and living under the curse of sin and death - the fires of hell for eternity. This hour or this day is a good time to ask JESUS to come into your heart and be Your Lord and Saviour forever. HE is known by many precious and Holy Names, but HE is ALMIGHTY GOD, THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE!

For Christians, this short life is nothing in comparison to the peace and joy of eternal life with JESUS CHRIST. Our citizenship is in Heaven - not this world.

Sixpack434, please take a look at the FAQ for non-Christians in the Apologetics area. Read it with an open heart, and I know that you will find many answers there. You should also know that there are many sweet Christians here who will share the Gospel of the Grace of God with you.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 6:23  For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Psalms 100:5  For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations.

Galatians 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Romans 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Philippians 3:9  And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Ephesians 2:1-7  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Romans 5:21  That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

I John 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Psalms 143:8  Cause me to hear thy lovingkindness in the morning; for in thee do I trust: cause me to know the way wherein I should walk; for I lift up my soul unto thee.

Amen to all the replies here.

If I could just add one thing to address the question....



Joh 3:16  "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


Addressing the deity of Christ...

Joh 14:6  Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
Joh 14:7  "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."  


Theres only one way to God friend....and this through Christ!

Grace and Peace!

Just a quick note here.  sixpack434 states that the in the language of the day, it was a harmless title to be called "son of God."  However, in the language and culture of the Israelites of that day, when a male child was born into the family, he was a child.  He was not a "son" until he was a man, about the age of 13.  At that time, saying he was the son of John for example, meant far more than he was John's son.  It meant that he carried the authority and equality of John.  By saying he was the son of John, he would be saying that he was John as far as whomever he was speaking to would be concerned.

When Jesus said He was the Son of God, He not only claimed relationship, but equality.  This is why they wished to stone Him, crucify Him, and get rid of Him.  This Man stood before them and claimed to be God Very God!  This God-Man, was, is, and always will be just that.  GOD VERY GOD![/i][/u]

Thank you for your replys. I beleive that there is God and Jesus(Peace be upon him) is one of his holy prophets. I don't understand how you beleive 3 are 1. It doesn't make sense to me. 1 + 1+ 1 = 1?!?
I do not see God being born out of a human, and being circumsised on the 7th day as it is written in the bible. Jesus (peace be upon him) i love him, but i do not worship him, for he was sent to us to command us to worship the father.
Jesus (PBUH) ate, slept and prayed like us. I beleive in his miracles, but like all messengers of God the miracles are done with the will of God.
No offence was intended. I want all people to worship the one and true God cause i love him

Top Ten List According to Bible Rejecting Jesus’ Divinity!

1.     Mark 12:29 Jesus said "Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." [This confirms that Jesus preached to worship One and Only God, not trinity.

2.     John 20:17 Jesus said I ascend to my God and your God. [Jesus has a God according to him; we know that God can’t have a God?]

3.     John 8:28 Jesus said, "I do nothing of myself” [Can a God be this dependant?]

4.     John 14:28 Jesus said, "My Father (GOD) is greater than I am" [So, how can Jesus himself be a God?]

5.     Luke 23:46 Jesus said "Father (GOD), into thy hands I commend my spirit" [God does not have spirit like Jesus did.]

6.     Matthew 24:36 Jesus told his followers that no one (including Jesus) knows when the judgment day will come, only GOD knows. [Or Jesus was lying to his followers, if he was God?]

7.     John 5:30 Jesus told his followers that he couldn’t do a single thing of his own. [When a God became this helpless?]

8.     John 5:32 Jesus told his followers that they have never seen GOD at anytime nor ever heard his voice. [Or Jesus was lying again here, if he was God?]

9.     Luke 5:16 Jesus prays to God. [Funny, if Jesus was God, then why he is praying to God? Since when and how a God has a God?

10. Matthew 26:39 Jesus fell on his face and prayed to his GOD like Muslims do. [How would you explain this from the very Bible?
 
CHECKMATE WITH:  John 17:3 and the Only True God! And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent

oh Jesus is much more than a Prophet. Maybe i should move the Diety thread over here. I'm sure if you check around in here, you'll find a few posts about Jesus' deity. I have a study that I did a few months back on this very issue. If you would like to check it out. Here's the thread on this very forum. God Bless you!

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=6;action=display;threadid=5071

that should take you to the study i did, as well as a few other Scriptures that support the diety of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God Bless

Joshua

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=6;action=display;threadid=2397 (http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=6;action=display;threadid=2397)

Is Jesus God?       YES!!

The above link is in the Apologetics Area, and the topic is "Is Jesus God? - Part One". The thread is 9 pages long and has extensive Biblical documentation. However, the Biblical documentation presented that proves Jesus Is Almighty God is is grossly incomplete.

It is blasphemy to say that Jesus Christ is not God. I realize that some people say this in total ignorance and don't have a clue what they are really saying. If they did understand, they would never make that statement again. Complete ignorance of the Holy Bible is the only reason why we allow such a statement on Christians Unite. It is also a chance to give the Gospel of the Grace of God to those who don't worship Jesus Christ, Almighty God, as their Lord and Saviour.

Jesus Christ was, is, and will always be Almighty God. HE took the form of a man on earth for a purpose. That purpose was formed before the foundation of the world. He took the form of a man ONLY because HE was the only perfect sacrifice for the sins of mankind. Jesus Christ could have exercised HIS awesome power and might, but HE instead humbled HIMSELF and took the form of a man, even unto death.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jesus also said, Joh 10:30  I and my Father are one.

God doesn't have a spirit?  Gen 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

This is not a Chess game. It is the word of God.

The trinity is difficult for some to understand. They were separate Entities and yet they were one and the same Entity.

grr.. i forgot to keep me signed in. I had a reply for you 6pack, but it got erased. Trust me, I will be replying to your 10 list. And i will show you where the error is in your quotations...until then, read that study...and beware of how strongly you voice that opinion that Jesus is not God, you may get the Admins on yer tail...lol. I will be compiling a rebuttle to your last post. This should be fun. God (Including Jesus) Bless you

Joshua

Sixpack434,

Your other thread containing blasphemy was merged with this one. One will be more than sufficient.

Please also take a look at the following threads on Christians Unite that prove Jesus Christ is and always has been Almighty God. Even though there is a large amount of material, it still only represents a small portion of the Holy Bible that proves Jesus Christ is Almighty God.

"The Holy Trinity"

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=20;action=display;threadid=6221 (http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=20;action=display;threadid=6221)

The below is about Bible facts. Please pay particular attention to "God Is The Creator".

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=20;action=display;threadid=2725 (http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=20;action=display;threadid=2725)

There are many other existing threads on Christians Unite that prove the same thing, but this will do for a start.

One should always do a beginner's study about Jesus Christ before denying HIS ABSOLUTE DEITY! Your total ignorance on this ABSOLUTE FACT is the only reason why this thread will be allowed on Christians Unite. Your checkmate statement is a joke made in complete ignorance. It is far past time for you to learn about who JESUS CHRIST is. Many sweet Christians on Christians Unite will help you do just that. In short, you are LOST and WITHOUT CHRIST!

You sound like a member of Islam. Is that what's causing your gross confusion?

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

1 Timothy 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

John 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Isaiah 43:11  I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Luke 2:11  For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Matthew 26:63-66  But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy. What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.

Is Jesus God?

Brothers and Sisters,

It appears that there will always be a continuing need to answer this question over and over again, so I am making this a sticky topic that will remain at the top in this area of the forum.

"Is Jesus God? - Part One" is locked and preserved for this most important question.

I am positive that many of you have already done excellent work on this topic and have already posted it in other portions of the forum. Please feel welcome to copy and paste your work from other areas here. ALSO, additional work you have done or plan to do on this topic will be greatly appreciated.

I did copy and paste one of my own posts on this subject, and I hope that you feel most welcome to do the same. This is not just another question to answer on Christians Unite. This question is actually the difference between being lost or being SAVED! So, this is an all important question that will always deserve our best attention. We should always be ready to explain the hope that is within us.  JESUS CHRIST is that hope and HE is ABSOLUTE REALITY for all of us who have HIM in our hearts.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Galatians 4:4-7  But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

God is the Creator of all things. (Part One)

(Both the seen and unseen of Heaven and earth)

Creator is a Heavenly and Majestic Title of GOD. HE spoke, called, and formed all things into being from nothing.

The ONE AND TRUE GOD is HE who is the CREATOR. All other gods are false and are to be denied. The ONE CREATOR is a GODHEAD of three HOLY DEITIES - YET ONE - IS ONE - AND IN ONE:  (1) God, The Father, (2) God, The Son, and (3) God, The Holy Spirit. These are ONE and this HOLY ONE is THE CREATOR.

Genesis 1:1-31  This is a beautiful portion of Scripture that deserves reading over and over again.

Creation is attributed to the GODHEAD.

Genesis 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
__________

Creation is attributed to the FATHER.

1 Corinthians 8:6  But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
__________

Creation is attributed to the SON.

John 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Colossians 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Colossians 1:17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
__________

Creation is attributed to the Holy Spirit.

Genesis 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Job 26:13  By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

Psalms 104:30  Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
__________

Only THE CREATOR is GOD, and there is no other GOD. The glory of all creation is in HIM, by HIM, and for HIM. The GLORY seen in all CREATION is HIS.

Isaiah 37:16  O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.

Isaiah 40:12  Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?
Isaiah 40:13  Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counsellor hath taught him?

Isaiah 54:5  For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

Psalms 96:5  For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.

Jeremiah 10:11  Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.
Jeremiah 10:12  He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

Colossians 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Revelation 4:11  Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Romans 11:36  For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Continued - See Part Two

God is the Creator of all things. (Part Two)

THE WORD ("Logos" from the Greek) is JESUS CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD - THE CREATOR.

John 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2  The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:4  In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:5  And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
John 1:6  There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
John 1:7  The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John 1:8  He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
John 1:9  That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
John 1:10  He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
John 1:11  He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
John 1:12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1 John 1:1  That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

Revelation 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Psalms 33:6  By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

Psalms 147:18  He sendeth out his word, and melteth them: he causeth his wind to blow, and the waters flow.
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Here are a few beautiful portions of Scripture to enjoy:

Job 26:7  He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

Psalms 104:5  Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
Psalms 104:6  Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.
Psalms 104:7  At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away.
Psalms 104:8  They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them.
Psalms 104:9  Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.

Isaiah 45:18  For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

1 Samuel 2:8  He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them.

Revelation 7:1  And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Isaiah 40:22  It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Isaiah 66:1  Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

Deuteronomy 32:8  When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.

Nehemiah 9:6  Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

Psalms 102:25  Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

Proverbs 8:22  The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Proverbs 8:23  I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Proverbs 8:24  When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Proverbs 8:25  Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
Proverbs 8:26  While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

Jeremiah 10:12  He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

Jeremiah 32:17  Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:

Jeremiah 27:5  I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are upon the ground, by my great power and by my outstretched arm, and have given it unto whom it seemed meet unto me.

John 17:24  Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

2 Peter 3:5  For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

Revelation 10:6  And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Revelation 14:7  Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Continued - See Part Three

God is the Creator of all things. (Part Three)

Our FATHER, THE CREATOR - WHO ART IN HEAVEN, HALLOWED BE THY NAME:

1 Kings 8:30  And hearken thou to the supplication of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, when they shall pray toward this place: and hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place: and when thou hearest, forgive.

1 Kings 8:39  Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men;)

1 Kings 8:43  Hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to thee for: that all people of the earth may know thy name, to fear thee, as do thy people Israel; and that they may know that this house, which I have builded, is called by thy name.

1 Chronicles 16:31  Let the heavens be glad, and let the earth rejoice: and let men say among the nations, The LORD reigneth.

2 Chronicles 2:6  But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?

2 Chronicles 6:30  Then hear thou from heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and render unto every man according unto all his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou only knowest the hearts of the children of men:)

Job 22:12  Is not God in the height of heaven? and behold the height of the stars, how high they are!

Psalms 33:13  The LORD looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men.

Psalms 123:1  Unto thee lift I up mine eyes, O thou that dwellest in the heavens.

Ecclesiastes 5:2  Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.

Isaiah 57:15  For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Jeremiah 23:24  Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

Daniel 4:35  And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Daniel 5:23  But hast lifted up thyself against the Lord of heaven; and they have brought the vessels of his house before thee, and thou, and thy lords, thy wives, and thy concubines, have drunk wine in them; and thou hast praised the gods of silver, and gold, of brass, iron, wood, and stone, which see not, nor hear, nor know: and the God in whose hand thy breath is, and whose are all thy ways, hast thou not glorified:

Matthew 5:45  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Matthew 10:32  Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 10:33  But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 11:25  At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Matthew 12:50  For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Matthew 18:10  Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 18:14  Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Mark 11:25  And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

Romans 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Revelation 21:22  And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Revelation 21:23  And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Revelation 21:24  And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Revelation 21:25  And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Revelation 21:26  And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Revelation 21:27  And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Revelation 22:1  And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Revelation 22:2  In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Revelation 22:3  And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Revelation 22:4  And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Revelation 22:5  And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

If you put the portions of Scripture in context, they are beautiful descriptions of Almighty God. The Holy Trinity is a difficult topic for many, especially for the lost, babes and less mature in Christ. This beautiful truth defies human logic, but humans should not be surprised that the power and majesty of Almighty God is far beyond human logic. No beginning and no end is another topic in a long list of beautiful truths about Almighty God that we should just accept with a simple, childlike faith. After all, we are simply humans, part of HIS Creation.
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Love In Christ,
Tom

Sixpac434,
I hope you are open to receive this. Your understanding of God is selective and limited. God in His very essence is triune yet one. I would invite you to read a very interesting online booklet. Just click on this link: http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.asp?id=180&chapterid=1&sectionid=1&pageid=1
God wants you to know Him in Truth. It is because of His love for you that He has revealed Himself as Triune.

May God bless you as you seek Him with an honest heart.

Keith

and Here is my study again on Jesus deity.
Here's a Bible study I did on whether or not Jesus is God...i'm sure you'll recognize the last half of the second section and the third section. The first section was a response from another forum that i had composed...and i made it into a set of notes for myself...enjoy...God Bless

This is the beginning of my notes and study on whether or not Jesus is God. If He isn’t Lord, then He’s a liar, or even worse, He’s a lunatic. The purpose of these notes is to expel the other two alternatives and to explain in detail Scriptural evidence such that you will make the conclusion yourself that Jesus is indeed God and Lord of All. Enjoy!

(This section on prayer was written in response to a post that someone wrote that Matthew 6:9 was in reality the True Lord’s Prayer, which is not entirely correct as you shall read. It doesn’t have anything to do specifically with Jesus’ deity that I’ve found so I’ve just briefly touched on it)

It's interesting that a person would deny that Jesus is God...someone used the example of the "Lord's" Prayer...that is the lord’s prayer only in that He prayed the words, but that isn't the real Lord's prayer...it is a disciple's prayer. Notice He was telling the Disciples 'Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name..." Pray YE, not I pray. In no way does this prayer embody all of Christ's teachings about Prayer...Now the Prayer in the Garden does as found in John Chapter 17:1-26...Notice first He prays for Himself, then the Believers, then the world:

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
(Joh 17:1-26)

Continued....

 LORD…?
Another point I wish to try to someone who would say that Jesus Christ is not God...The OT has many many references to the Messiah, and only Jesus Christ could have fulfilled these prophecies i.e. the Redeemer. In Isaiah, Isaiah talks about the Redeemer as being the Lord God of Israel. A Redeemer is someone sent to save someone. In Isaiah 52:13-15 we see the Servant being lifted up i.e. killed.  If the Redeemer is not Christ, then who is it? None Else...but that of Jesus of Nazareth
Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee. Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
(Isa 49:7-8)
Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. As many were astounded at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
(Isa 52:13-15)
Who is it that the Prophet speaks about? None other than Jesus of Nazareth.  Even Jesus Himself said that He was the Son of God and doesn’t deny His deity.

In John 9:35-37 the author records this little conversation between Pharisees and the Messiah, whom they would later crucify, “ Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said Who is He Lord, that I might believe. And he worshiped Him. And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into the world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind” Jesus doesn’t deny His deity. Neither does He do the same thing in the next Chapter of John where He said in verse 30 “I and my Father are one” and even later on in verse 38 “But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him” So how in the world, if Jesus is not God, can He be ‘in’ the Father and the Father be “in” Him if Jesus was simply a man. It’s contradictory to God’s Word that only a human who had the evil fallen nature, someone whose nature was so vile that there is no possible way to redeem himself by an action he himself could perform, could save the world through dying on a cross. This was no simple man, this was God’s Son who had all the characteristics of God, and the body of a man. He was God incarnate to say. John the Author of the Gospel that bears his name writes this to focus on Jesus’ claim to deity:

John 1:1,2,14

In the beginning was THE WORD, and the WORD WAS WITH GOD, and the WORD WAS GOD. The same was in the beginning with God…And the WORD WAS made flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father full of grace and truth.(Emphasis Mine)

Isaiah puts it this way:

Isaiah 9:6

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.

Now why would Isaiah have put The Almighty God in that statement if he personally believed that a mere man could rule the nations. He probably thought that God Himself was going to rule the nations with His presence and power and might. But still a child. Why would the Almighty come as a child, much less a human man as we see the gender clearly displayed in the words “unto us a SON is given”?(Emphasis mine) Here Isaiah clearly portrays God coming as a man. Now, this had to be truly boggling his mind right about this time, but the Almighty told him to prophesy and write down the Almighty’s Words. Here we see some of the first glimpses of God becoming a man, but not having the sin nature of man simply because He was God and He is Holy, and Just, and True.

We see also in Jeremiah that God will raise up a descendant of David to rule the throne. This man is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ.
(REF. Jeremiah 33:14)

Let us look at some Old Testament attributes of the Almighty and some statements Jesus and His followers made.

In the Old Testament, Exodus 3:14, we see Yahweh (God) use these words. “And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said Thus shalt say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you” The Almighty says that He is this and He says He is the Beginning and the End in Isaiah 41:4. Amazing, yet it gets even better. Jesus Christ used some similar words to convey His deity that He was God. I shall ask to keep in mind that how can a mere man make these statements and still live in that day and time and have followers if it were not so? Jesus used the words “I Am” seven times while revealing himself as “The Bread of Life” (John 6:35) “The Light of The World (John 8:12); the Door (John 10:9); The Good shepherd (John 10:11); the Resurrection and the Life (11:25), The Way, the Truth, and the Life (John 14:6) and the Vine (John 15:5) His use of the “I AM” without a predicate complement demonstrates that he is in essence the same person with Yahweh in the Old Testament. Jesus also echoes the Almighty’s words that He spoke in Isaiah 41:4:

Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generation from the beginning? I the Lord, the first and with the last; I am He”

Jesus’ spoke these words. Pay attention to the words first and last.

Revelation 1:8

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY (Emphasis mine)

Once again, how could Jesus have said these words if He wasn’t God. Those are only words that God Himself could say with authority. So I propose that Jesus Christ is equal to God and He is God. If you still haven’t made up your mind…or would like a few more examples of Jesus’ deity then read below.

Yet once again, if Jesus was not God, then how is it that man can be forgiven of his sin and be justified and redeemed in the sight of the Almighty through the sacrifice of a mere man? Jesus was no mere man. He was God.

(Cont. In next post)

(Someone had used the example that Jesus could have been a false messiah and that someone else is the Messiah, so that’s why this passage is in here) You are correct in that the false messiah shall come in Revelation...but if you remember, Satan is a counterfeit! He will try to re-create what God has done, notice I said done...means has already come to pass, so common sense would tell me that Satan would try to re-produce a false messiah whom the world would receive...another thing. Notice Jesus' words about this messiah:
I receive not honour from men. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
(Joh 5:41-44)
Mat 24:15 Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand).
The abomination of desolation spoken of by Jesus is found in Daniel 9:27
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week. And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease, and on a corner of the altar desolating abominations, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall be poured on the desolator.
The false messiah will not seek honor from God Almighty, since he is antichrist, he will hate everything that has to do with God and Jesus Christ.
Another point I’d like to express:  If Jesus wasn't God, then how did He have the power to forgive sins? Scripture is clear that only God can forgive sins...let me point you to a few examples:
Mat 9:2 And behold, they brought to Him a paralytic, lying on a bed. And Jesus, seeing their faith, said to the paralytic, Child, be of good cheer. Your sins are forgiven you.
Mat 9:3 And lo, some of the scribes said within themselves, This one blasphemes.
Mat 9:4 And Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, Why do you think evil in your hearts?
Mat 9:5 For which is easier? To say, Your sins are forgiven you, or to say, Arise and walk!
Mat 9:6 But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins, then He said to the paralytic, Arise, take up your bed and go to your house.
The Son of Man is Jesus Christ, no such authority can be given unto mankind because mankind has not grieved himself, he has grieved God, and from God and only God can come forgiveness. Thus the only way the paralytic could be forgiven of his sin, was by God Himself. Another example I'd like to point out is the Woman caught in adultery:
(Joh 8:1) But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.
(Joh 8:2) And early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people came to Him. And He sat down and taught them.
(Joh 8:3) And the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman taken in adultery. And standing her in the midst,
(Joh 8:4) they said to Him, Teacher, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
(Joh 8:5) Now Moses in the Law commanded us that such should be stoned. You, then, what do you say?
(Joh 8:6) They said this, tempting Him so that they might have reason to accuse Him. But bending down, Jesus wrote on the ground with His finger, not appearing to hear.
(Joh 8:7) But as they continued to ask Him, He lifted Himself up and said to them, He who is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her.
(Joh 8:8) And again bending down, He wrote on the ground.
(Joh 8:9) And hearing, and being convicted by conscience, they went out one by one, beginning at the oldest, until the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
(Joh 8:10) And bending back up, and seeing no one but the woman, Jesus said to her, Woman, where are the ones who accused you? Did not one give judgment against you?
(Joh 8:11) And she said, No one, Lord. And Jesus said to her, Neither do I give judgment. Go, and sin no more.
Now, was Jesus condoning her sin? No, He simply told her to go and sin no more. He was the only one there without sin and thus only He could give that commandment with Authority simply because He was sinless. If Jesus was not God, then He’d have had to have sin in Him and His commandment to go and sin no more would have been empty words and both the paralytic and the woman at the well would still be condemned to hell. Once again, if Jesus wasn’t God, then we are all still in our sins, and have not been forgiven, because it's only through The Messiah we have salvation from the condemnation that our sins have given us!  Jesus said Himself "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, No man cometh unto the Father except through Me" " So tell me this, how is it that Jesus is not God, yet He fulfilled numerous prophecies from the OT, lived a sinless life, forgave men of their sins, was the Ultimate Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world and suffered the most gruesome horrifying death known to man, for men that despised Him. The fact that He lived a sinless life, is enough to support that He was in fact the Word made flesh as John the Apostle put it and the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world as John the Baptist put it. I'm sure that you would agree with me, that mankind is anything but perfect. We are so imperfect as the far as east is to the west...point being, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, paid the sacrifice, so that we may be forgiven of our sins through His atoning blood shed on Calvary. So was Jesus merely a man? If Jesus was man only, God could have raised up, in successive ages, many such living examples of sanctified humanity as Christ was, to correct, instruct, and quicken the world. Yet He did not. Why? How has it come to pass that of all men He alone has risen to spiritual perfection if He is not God? How has it come to pass that in the 10,000 or so years of written History there has been no one else who has changed the world such as the Christ did? Simply because Jesus is God and God alone has the power to save man.
Furthermore, the Old Testament says in Isaiah chapter 43, verse 11, that “I even I, am the LORD, and beside me there is no savior” I want to focus on the last part of this verse. It says “and beside me there is no savior.” The Old Testament was clear that there is no other savior save that of God. So this Jesus of Nazareth…if He wasn’t who He claimed to be He’d be a liar. So tell me…is He Lord, Liar, or a Lunatic? You make the decision yourself…I’ll let Scripture speak for me. If we go by this Scripture alone in saying that Jesus is not God, then we have no hope for salvation. Plain and simple. But wait! Jesus is Lord. The early Christians used this phrase “Christos est gidios” (spelling is a little off being I only saw the phrase once or twice) but it means “Christ is Lord” Why would they call Jesus, Lord if they didn’t mean it. They were calling Him Lord out of reverence to the One who had saved them. As said earlier, if Jesus is not God then we are still in our sins, but yet Peter put it this way in Acts Chapter 4, Verse 12: “Neither is there salvation in any other” for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. (Emphasis mine) He is basically saying that Salvation comes only through Jesus Christ and thus supports Jesus’ own statement “I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE, NO MAN COMETH UNTO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME” (Emphasis mine) Once again if Jesus wasn’t God then all the New Testament Apostles, Fathers, Elders, and Christians throughout the ages are condemned to hell, but that is not so, for salvation comes only through Jesus. It says “For it is by grace through faith that ye have been saved and not of yourselves it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast” There it is plain as day. Salvation comes only through Jesus. None else
Also I mentioned earlier to make your decision on whether He is Lord, liar or lunatic. You have two alternatives you can make here. In order to fully explain and cover all spectrums of this statement of “Lord, Liar, or Lunatic” I’ll break it down into 2 more sections underscored Liar and Lunatic. The Lord section has been covered in detail first…now we shall study the second and third options.

 LIAR….?
IN this section we shall examine two alternatives that people have come up with throughout the ages…with might I add very little documentation or Scripture to support it i.e. Jehovah’s Witnesses and other cults.
(This section on the view of Jesus as a liar is from Josh McDowell’s “The New evidence that Demands a Verdict)
Was He a liar? If when Jesus made His claims, He knew He was not God, then He was lying. But if He was a liar, then He was also a hypocrite, because He told others to be honest, whatever the cost, while He, at the same time, was teaching a living a colossal lie. (Note: This section isn’t meant as any disrespect to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It is just to refute the claims those who do not think Jesus is God have made over the years. Personally, I believe Jesus is God. I am simply attempting to expel any further misconceptions about His deity and to show that He is in fact God)
More than that, He was a demon, because He deliberately told others to trust Him for their eternal destiny. If He could not back up His claims and knew they were false, then He was unspeakably evil…which I may remind you He isn’t. Lastly, He would also be a fool because it was His claims to deity that lead to His crucifixion. We see in Mark 14:61-64 Jesus’ answer to His deity.
Mark 14:61-64
But He kept silent, and made no answer. Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, ‘Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?’ “And Jesus said, ‘I am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.’ “And tearing his clothes, the high priest said, ‘What further need do we have of witnesses? You have heard the blasphemy; how does it seem to you? “And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death. (NASV)
Also we see in John 19:7 a little clearer picture
John 19:7
“The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He made Himself out to be the Son of God’” (NASV)
If Jesus was a liar, a con man, and there for an evil, foolish man, then how can we explain the fact that He left us with the most profound moral instruction and powerful moral example. That anyone has ever left? Could a deceiver—an imposter of monstrous proportions—teach such unselfish ethical truths and live such a morally and exemplary life as Jesus said? The very notion is incredulous.
John Stuart Mill, the philosopher, skeptic, and antagonist of Christianity, admitted that Jesus was a first-rate ethicist supremely worthy of our attention and emulation. As Mill expressed it:
About the life and saying of Jesus there is a stamp of personal originality combined with profundity of insight in the very first rank of men of sublime genius of whom our species can boast. When this pre-eminent genius is combined with the qualities of probably the greatest moral reformer and martyr to that mission who never existed upon earth, religion cannot be said to have made a bad choice in pitching upon this man as the ideal representative and guide to humanity; nor even now would it be easy, even for an unbeliever, to find a better translation of the rule of virtue from the abstract into the concrete than to endeavor to live so that Christ would approve of our life. (Grounds, Vernon C. “The Reason for our Hope. Chicago: Moody Press 1945)
Throughout history Jesus Christ has captured the hearts and minds of millions who have strived to order their lives after His. Even William Lecky, one of Great Britain’s most noted historians and a dedicated opponent of organized Christianity noted this is his History of European morals from Augustus to Charlemagne:
It was reserved for Christianity to present to the world and ideal character which through all the changes of eighteen centuries has inspired the hearts of men with an impassioned love; has shown itself capable of acting on all ages, nations, temperaments and conditions; has been not only the highest pattern of virtue, but the strongest incentive to hits practice…the simple record of [Jesus’] these three short years of active life has done more to regenerate and soften mankind than all the disquisitions of philosophers and all the exhortations of moralists.
When the church historian Philip Shcaff considered the evidence for Jesus’ deity, especially in light of what Jesus taught and the kind of life He led, Schaff was struck by the absurdity of the explanations designed to escape the logical implications of this evidence. Stated Schaff:
This testimony, if not true, must be down right blasphemy or madness. The former hypothesis cannot stand a moment before the moral purity and dignity of Jesus, revealed in His every word and work, and acknowledged by universal consent. Self-deception in a matter so momentous, and with an intellect in all respects so clear and so sound, is equally out of the question. How could He be an enthusiast or a madman who never lost even the balance of His mind, who sailed serenly over all thr trouble and persecutions, as the sun above the clouds who always returned to the wisest answer to tempting questions, who calmly and deliberately predicted His death on the cross, His resurrection on the third day, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, the founding of His Church, the destruction of Jerusalem—predictions that have been literally fulfilled? A character so original, so complete, so uniformly consistent, so perfect, so human and yet so high above all human greatness, can be neither a fraud nor a fiction. The poet, as has been well said, would in this case be greater than the hero. It would take more than a Jesus to invent a Jesus. (Schaff, History of the Christian Church, pg. 109)
In His work the Person of Christ, Schaff revisits the theory that Jesus was a deceiver, and mounts a convincing attack against it:
The hypothesis of imposture is so revolting to moral as well as common sense, that its mere statement is its condemnation…No scholar of any decency and self-respect would now dare profess it openly. How, in the name of logic, common sense, and esperience, could an impostor—that is a deceitful, selfish, deprived man—have invented, and consistently maintained from the beginning to end, the purest and noblest character known in history with the most perfect air of truth and reality? How could he have conceived and successfully carried out a plan of unparalleled beneficence, moral magnitude, and sublimity, and sacrificed his own life for it, in the face of the strongest prejudices of his people and ages? (Schaff, TPOC, pgs. 94 and 95)
The answer of course, is that Jesus could not have! Someone who lived as Jesus lived, taught as Jesus taught, and died as Jesus died could not have been a liar. So what are the other alternatives?

 LUNATIC…?
If it is inconceivable for Jesus to have been a liar, then could He have though He was God but have been mistake? After all it is possible to be both sincere and wrong. But we must remember that for someone to think he was God, especially in a culture that was fiercely monotheistic, then to tell others that their eternal destiny depends on believing in him, was no slight flight of fantasy but the thoughts of a lunatic in the fullest sense. Was Jesus Christ such a person?
Christian philosopher Peter Kreeft presents this option, then shows why we must reject it:
A measure of your insanity is the size of the gap between what you think you are and what you really are. If I think that I am the greatest philosopher in America, I am only an arrogant fool; if I think I am Napoleon, I am probably of the edge; if I think that I am a butterfly, I am fully embarked from the sunny shores of sanity. But if I think I am God, I am even more insane because the gap between any finite and the infinite God is even greater than the gap between any two finite things, even a man and a butterfly. Well then, why [was not Jesus a] liar or a lunatic? Almost no one who has read the Gospels can honestly and seriously consider that option. The savviness, the canniness, the human wisdom, the attractiveness of Jesus emerge from the Gospels with unavoidable force to any but the most hardened and prejudiced reader…. Compare Jesus with liars. Or lunatic like the dying Nietzsche. Jesus has in abundance precisely those three qualities that liars and lunatics most conspicuously lack: (1) his practical wisdom, his ability to read human hearts; (2) his deep and winning love, his passionate compassion, his ability to attract people and make them feel at home and forgiven, his authority, “not as the scribes”; (3) his ability to astonish, his unpredictability, his creativity. Liars and lunatics are all so dull and predictable! No one who knows both the Gospels and human beings can seriously entertain the possibility that Jesus was a liar or a lunatic, a bad man. (Kreeft, Fundamentals of the Faith, pgs 60 and 61)
Even Napoleon Bonaparte went on record as saying:
I know men; and I tell you that Jesus Christ is not a man. Superficial minds see a resemblance between Christ and the founders of empires, and the gods of other religions. That resemblance does not exist. There is between Christianity and whatever other religions the distance of infinity….Everything in Christ astonishes me. His spirit overawes me, and His will confounds me. Between Him and whoever else in the world, there is no possible term of comparison. He is truly a being by Himself. His ideas and sentiments, the truth which He announces, His manner of convincing, are not explained by either human organization or by the nature of things….The nearer I approach, the more carefully I examine, everything is above me—everything remains grand, of a grandeur which overpowers. His religion is a revelation from an intelligence which certainly is not that of man…On can absolutely find nowhere, but in Him alone, the imitation or example of His life…I search in vain in history to find the similar to Jesus Christ, or anything which can approach the gospel. Neither history, nor humanity, nor the ages, nor nature offer me anything with which I am able to compare it or to explain it. Here everything is extraordinary. (Grounds. “Reason for our Hope.” PG 37)
There you have it. Three different options that one can choose to believe. We had a Trilemma on our hands. Was Jesus Lord, Liar, or Lunatic. Any person in their right mind who has read to this point will see that Jesus Christ is in fact God and He is Lord over all Creation.
Josh McDowell has put together into words what I could have only dreamed of putting together into words about the Liar and Lunatic sections of this study. He has shown the statements and the argument for and successfully refuted it using outside sources. Earlier in these notes I myself covered the Lord section on support on Jesus’ deity. I shall let His Word speak for itself. I pray I have not been to exhaustive and Lord willing this will be the first draft of many more of this subject and many others. I pray you enjoyed reading these notes and study material. I also pray that the Lord has spoken to you about this subject if you are unsure about whether or not Jesus Christ is God. The Scriptures speak for themselves and attest to that very fact. I pray that if you do not believe that Jesus is God, or in the Trinity, then I pray that the Lord will show you the Truth through His Word. I will let that speak for itself.
May all who read this be richly blessed by our Creator and bask in His mercies and grace.
God Bless!
In His Service,
Joshua

AMEN BROTHER JOSHUA!!!

Brother, I really enjoyed your message. Maybe it is a good thing that this question is raised yet again. We can all reflect again on the Majesty and Love of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. There is no topic that comes close to the importance of Jesus Christ. I hope and pray that Christians are further strengthened by this thread. I also hope and pray that the lost read this thread with an open heart to meet the LORD OF LORDS, our Saviour, Jesus Christ!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 11:33  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

man dude, what's with the shouting. i know i'm deaf, but if you keep on shouting at me, i'm going to be even deafer...if that's a word...lol. I can do nothing of myself...it's all Christ. That should be every Christian's cry. God Bless

Joshua

Jemidon,

Anytime it is Gods word or in support of Gods word, it deserves a healthy shout of AMEN! I join with blackeyedpeas in this,  AMEN!

Zechariah 2:8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts: "After the glory hath He sent me unto the nations which despoiled you, for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of His eye.

   
   9For behold, I will shake Mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants. And ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me.

   
   10"Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion; for lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee," saith the LORD. 11"And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be My people; and I will dwell in the midst of thee. And thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.

Think and ask yourself "who sent who in this passage?"

The LORD sent the LORD!

The Father sent the Son. They are both LORD, that is JHVH. Jesus said, "I and the Father are one."

asaph

LOL...I was just kidding around...though...i'm a pretty quiet guy so i don't shout much :) ya'll can shout...i think i'll save my voice for shouting in Glory. :) God Bless

Joshua

AMEN BROTHER ASAPH!!

I love that portion of Scripture and many other portions that proclaim the absolute Majesty of our LORD. I was just thinking about how small, insignificant, and unworthy I am, YET Jesus died for me, THE JUST FOR THE UNJUST!

He is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, YET he allows me to come into his presence with prayer, praise, and worship. In fact, HE sent His Holy Spirit to live in my heart as a guide and comforter. It makes me very sad to know that many of the lost consider the preaching of the Cross as foolishness. If they only knew and understood what Jesus did for them, they would be on their knees or prone with us in thanks, appreciation, praise, and worship. Jesus is the most precious GIFT that anyone can ever receive, but many still reject Him for the things and traditions of this world.

I pray that God will soften their hearts and let them hear the WORD. Faith does come from hearing HIS WORD, but one has to listen to get the message. I do know absolutely that THE WORD is powerful and is never wasted. THE WORD is sharper than any sword, and I pray that it pierces the hardened hearts of the lost. The greatest and most precious event of a Christians life is the moment that THE WORD pierced their hearts.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 62:7  In God is my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, and my refuge, is in God.

Psalms 28:7  The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusted in him, and I am helped: therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth; and with my song will I praise him.

Romans 5:17-18  For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Acts 26:18  To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

John 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Hebrews 4:16  Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

I Corinthians 2:5  That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Psalms 18:46  The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted.

Ephesians 1:12-14  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

I Peter 3:18  For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

John 8:12  Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Colossians 1:12-14  Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Romans 5:6  For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Psalms 100:1-5  Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all ye lands. Serve the LORD with gladness: come before his presence with singing. Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture. Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name. For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations.

:) makes me think of the Scriptures that say "Come out and be seperate from them" and Romans 12:1 "I urge you therefore brethren to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, Holy and acceptible unto God, this is your reasonable act of Worship."

God Bless

In Christ,
Joshua

Rather than continue "defensively" against scurrilous attacks against Jesus, let's look at the other side of the coin.

Just who is Mohammed in comparison to Jesus.

Jesus performed miracles.
Mohammed didn't (according to Quran).:P

Jesus didn't commit any sins, or mistakes.
Mohammed continually received special dispensations from Allah to cover up for his mistakes (according to the Quran).8)

Jesus died, was buried, and rose again. ;D
Mohammed died, was buried, and remains there.???

Umm hmm.   Not much to compare.

AMEN BROTHER HANK!!

Our Saviour Lives, HE lives in us, and we live in HIM.

There is no comparison between JESUS and Mohamed.

Mohamed is a pile of bones turning to dust.

JESUS is LIGHT, LIFE, the LORD OF LORDS, the KING OF KINGS, VERY GOD, ALMIGHTY GOD.

Mohamed was lost, undone, without God, and denied that Jesus Christ is Almighty God. Mohamed denied his CREATOR and is damned forever to the fires of hell.





It's really just as bold, blunt, and simple as the above. A Christian is being kind and loving to the lost by stating the truth. On the opposite side of the coin, it is cruel for a Christian to remain silent and help hasten someone on their way to hell. Being politically correct is simply a wimp out for a Christian who lacks the courage to help a lost person. The lost can still reject JESUS CHRIST, but it shouldn't be because no Christian had the courage to share the truth with them.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ephesians 2:1-7  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Has this word been brought forward in the discussion?

 1 John 5:1.  "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
 2.  By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
 3.  For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
 4.  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
 5.  Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
 6.  This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
 7.  For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
 8.  And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
 9.  If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
 10.  He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
 11.  And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
 12.  He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."

ollie
 

AMEN BROTHER!!!!![/b][/u]

AMEN OLLIE!!

I love that beautiful portion of Scripture. It speaks volumes that I love more each time I hear or read it.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 143:8  Cause me to hear thy lovingkindness in the morning; for in thee do I trust: cause me to know the way wherein I should walk; for I lift up my soul unto thee.

I agree with your post.

Jn.1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God."

Jesus is God robed in flesh. Jn.1:14
Jn.20:28 "Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God."
Here we have doubting Thomas recognizing that Jesus is God.

Jn.8:58The preexistance of Jesus, He said, "I tell you the truth, Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am.

"Rom.9:5 "Theirs are the patriarches, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever be praised.. Amen"

Mt.1:23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a Son, and they will call him Emmanuel, which means, "God with us."

yes, we can clearly see from scripture that Jesus is God.

God bless,
bluelake.

AMEN BLUELAKE!!

Thank you for adding some more beautiful portions of Scriptures that proclaim the absolute deity of JESUS, VERY GOD!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

John 8:23-24 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.

 
23And He said to them, "You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

   

Here is the problem with not being able to understand the Truth about Jesus being GOD.
Some come to this with a closed mind. Fixed on the thought that He is not GOD. They don't leave any room to learn anything new, they limit GOD to only certain verses and
are slready fixed on who He is not. Thus when the Spirit tries to teach them that lives in us, the refuse Him and lean to their own understanding. Thats why the bible tells us
"Lean NOT on your own understanding, acknowledge HIM in all your ways and He will direct your path"

So all the scripture that we see clearly (by the Holy Spirit)
they have willingfully closed out.
If you reject Jesus as GOD, you reject GOD. If you die rejecting GOD you inherit hell for all eternity.
John 8:23-24 (New King James Version)
 
23And He said to them, "You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

   

Is Jesus God?

Well, for me. No. I am a Christian but not a member of Jehovah's Witnesses who don't believe that Jesus is God.

I am pro-Bible and my contention is this:

1. Jesus Christ was a man purposed by God to fulfill His will on salvation. When I say God, it directly refers to the One introduced to us by our Lord Jesus Christ Himself as the One and Only true God - the Father.

2. Jesus can never be God for God is one. Jesus Christ is not the Father because definitely He is the Son. When Jesus said that the Father is the only true God, it means that the Son is not, the Holy Spirit is not, or NO ONE is - ONLY the Father.

3. Jesus Christ, being a man, was found in the form of God, in the sense that God has given Him authorities and qualities similar to God Himself. This was needed for the fulfillment of God's will for salvation. But this doesn't mean that He is God. For a God is not a man. And a man can never be God.

4. Jesus Christ Himself didn't exist in the beginning. He didn't exist before He was born. He was proclaimed as "the firstborn to all creations" because He was FOREKNOWN by God before the foundation of the world.

5. According to the Bible, there is only ONE Creator - the Father. Since the Father purposed everything for Christ, He [Jesus] became the sole reason why God, the Creator, the Father, created everything.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Jesus is God... or God has three persons namely: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

:)

Jury,

I see this is your first post, so WELCOME to Christians Unite.

If you read the host of Scriptures posted here in part one and part two, you will see that the Holy Bible most definitely declares that God the Father, God the Son (JESUS), and God the Holy Spirit are ONE and ALMIGHTY GOD!

One would have to believe in a book like the Koran or something other than the Holy Bible to believe any differently. I believe in the Holy Bible, and the Holy Bible answers this question most completely and perfectly. Jesus Christ is Almighty God - The Creator. HE humbled Himself and took the form of a man to die on the CROSS for us. HE arose from the dead on the third day and is our Living Lord and Saviour forever.

I don't believe in just a man, but JESUS isn't just a man, nor has HE ever been.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Colossians 2:8-10  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Psalms 100:3  Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

The mere fact that Jesus had no sin is enough to say that He is God. The mere fact that Jesus is the ONLY one to be resurrected is testament that He is God. The mere fact that Jesus HIMSELF forgave the sin that had been comitted against God. If Jesus was a mere man, then by what authority did He have to forgive the sins of man that had been committed against God Himself, unless He was God. Here's an answer. HE IS GOD!!!...lol. If you a pro-bible, you will most certainly see in Part 1 and 2 in my posts as well as the posts of others, we see the testament of Jesus' deity...over and over. I noticed you said:

3. Jesus Christ, being a man, was found in the form of God, in the sense that God has given Him authorities and qualities similar to God Himself. This was needed for the fulfillment of God's will for salvation. But this doesn't mean that He is God. For a God is not a man. And a man can never be God.

You are basing this on Phillipians. Note the usage of the words in this Scripture. Here i'll post the greek for you:

(Who being) (in form God thought it)                        (not    
                                                                        robbery)
ov en morfh| qeou uparxwn  oux arpagmon hghsato l to einai  
(equal God)
isa qew|,    

not what it is saying here. Paul is basically saying "Christ, who was in the form of God, was essentially God because He was equal with God" Cant get much more plainer than that. Paul thought Jesus was God, as did John. The Bible all but comes out and says that Jesus was God. I've heard the arguement that because the Bible doesn't specifically say that Jesus is God, that it's simply not true. However, there are other things in Scripture that we aren't necessarily told, that are in fact true. Like who the 4th person in the fire was in Daniel. Who the Pillar of Fire and the cloud of smoke was in the wilderness. Get my drift. Just a few thoughts. Just because Scripture doesn't come right out and tell you, doesn't mean that it is true. Take the "three" wise men for example. Alot of people say that there were 'three' wise men, however, Scripture never gives a number, that assumption is based on the three gifts given. We're never told who the Antichrist is, we just know that he is called the "Beast, or the Little Horn" so your statement about "because the Bible doesn't say so, it's not true" doesn't wash bud. Just a few thoughts.

Joshua

AMEN BROTHER JOSHUA!

It's a beautiful and most precious event to finally understand WHO died on the CROSS for us, why, and asking HIM to be the LORD over our lives. JESUS is with us and in us, so we are never alone again. JESUS becomes more and more precious as we grow in HIS strength and yield to HIS will and purpose for us. The more we yield for HIS use, the greater our joy will be. It's really beyond human words to explain all of our riches in CHRIST, what HE means to us, and the peace we have in knowing that we belong to HIM.


Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 104:33  I will sing unto the LORD as long as I live: I will sing praise to my God while I have my being.

To make my side clear first, my contention is this:

When I say Jesus Christ is not God, I am not saying that He is just a man - nor He is a mere man - nor He is only a man.

Jesus Christ our Lord, was a MAN accredited to us by God through miracles and signs... Again, when I say God, I directly refer to the Father.. for according to Jesus Christ Himself: the one and only true God is the Father.

Upon saying that the Father is the only true God (as Jesus declared) and the Father is definitely not the Son and not the Holy Spirit... then the Son is not God... the Holy Spirit is not God.

For ONE is Gd - and that is the Father. He is YHWH of Old Testament. He is the Creator of Adam, the Father of Adam, the God of Noah, the God of Abraham, the God of Israel, the Creator of everthing.

This same God is the God of Jesus, the Faher of Jesus, the Creator of Jesus, the Father of the Apostles, the God of the Apostles, the Creator of the Apostles.

This same God is our God --- our Father.

Nowhere in the Bible it does say that Jesus Christ is God. Not even a concept.

Jesus can never be God for one is God - the Father. If He Himself a God, it would result into a concept of having two Gods: the Father and the Son.

Again, according to Jesus Christ Himself: Only one true God is none other than - the Father. Jesus' Father - our Father. Jesus' God - our God.

My contention again is this:

God had purposed Jesus to fulfill His will for salvation. How can Jesus fulfill this? God must give Him first the authorities over everything. He must give Him first the qualities simlar to God Himself... but this doesn't make Jesus God. Jesus is not the Father who gave Him everything. Jesus, while having the qualities of God given to Him by God, still chose to become a servant to God's will... He chose to be found in the likeness of man who suffers in death... This is because part of God's will is that He (Jesus) must die on the cross for the forgiveness of sins.

:)

Based on your contention i'm going to make these statements:

1. Jesus is fully God and fully Man. When I say God I refer directly to the Father as well, however, I also acknowledge that Jesus is also a part of God. Equal to God the Father in nature, but subordinate in responsibilities. If Jesus Christ, was only a MAN, then why didn't God choose someone else to be the 'savior'. In the OT, if you've read the book of Isaiah, you'll notice particulary in chapters 40-52 i believe, a major difference. Note the Lord says quite a bit that "I am the Lord, the only one, there are no others beside me" God is also referred to numerous times in the OT that He is the Savior. Now how is it that Christ is the Savior, and God is the savior, if the two aren't the same? Doesn't make sense to me. It seems like a bit of duality. That there are two saviors...according to your contention. Here i'll post a few of the Scriptures.

Psalm 25:5

Guide me in your truth and teach me, for you God are MY SAVIOR, my hope is in you all day long.

(Note: If you'll remember in the NT, i believe our HOPE is in Christ Jesus. I may be stretching a bit here, but if David's hope was in God, and our Hope is in Christ Jesus, If i remember correctly, OT saints and NT believers share the common hope)

here's another one:

Isaiah 43:3

For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, YOUR SAVIOR; I gave egypt for your ransom, Ethiopia and Seba in your place.

Isaiah 43:11

I, even I, am the Lord, beside me there is no Savior

(Note who is speaking there, it is God Almighty. He is claiming that He is the Savior, and according to Him, there is no other Savior. Yet you still say that Jesus still died on the Cross for our sins.)

Again, I ask you, how is it that if Jesus was not God, that He had the power to forgive sins that had been committed against God Himself. No mere man can forgive the sins of another man that has been committed against God Himself. It's impossible because we are sinners!!! Jesus was perfect, that alone attests to His deity. Again, it is a concept that Jesus is God, all you gotta do is read John 1:1-14. That's clear in itself. If you know a bit of  greek you'll learn that the language is emphasized, meaning John the Apostle thought He was God, as well as Paul in His Epistles. Again, it doesn't have to be word for word that Jesus said "I am God" even though He came close to saying that more than once. Of course, i'm sure you know of John 10:30 where it says "I and my Father are one" Signifying equality with the Father, in nature, and deity. I can get alot more in depth about thist, but I don't have the time. I'm going to have to cut it short here.

God Bless

Joshua

(Oh yea, you're debating a 17 year old...so I ain't shying away that easily ;D)

I am not against what the Biblical pronouncement that God our Father is indeed the Lord and Savior. But this authority is inherent to Him. UNLIKE Jesus, He was given by God the authorities in heaven and on earth. That's why He became Lord and Savior. He was made by God Lord and Savior.

"Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
Mark 2:5-7

When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic,
"Son, your sins are forgiven."
Now some teachers of the law were sitting there,
thinking to themselves, "Why does this fellow talk like that?
He's blaspheming!
Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
Mark 2:5-7 (NIV)

Yes. God is the only one who can forgive sins. But if Jesus is not God, how can He forgive sins?

Jesus Christ Himself clarifies such query in the succeeding verses.

Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts,
and he said to them, "Why are you thinking these things?
Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, `Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, `Get up, take your mat and walk'?
But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...."
He said to the paralytic, "I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home."
Mark 2:8-11, (NIV)

As emphasized, Jesus Christ according to Himself, declared that He has the authority on earth to forgive sins.

How did He gain this authority?

Then Jesus came and spoke to them,
saying,

"All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
Matthew 28:18, (NKJV)

And who gave Him all the authority in heaven and on earth?

My Father has given me everything, and he is the only one who knows the Son.
The only one who truly knows the Father is the Son.
But the Son wants to tell others about the Father,
so that they can know him too.
Matthew 11:27 (Contemporary English Version)

Clearly, it is the Father (the only true God) who gave Christ the authority to forgive sins. If Jesus Christ is God, He don't need to be given such authority because all authorities are God inherently (the very sense of being omnipotent).

Now, you cited John 10:30:


Are you sure this is what the passage is dealing about? May I ask what your contention is by citing John 10:30? I suggest you read both preceding and succeeding verse of John 10:30.

:)

Oh, I've read John 10:30 and the precedeing and succeeding verses after it. :)  It plainly talks about Christ as the good shepherd. It also talks about His Father being a good shepherd as well. So they're both good shepherds. I know verywell what it is saying in John 10:30. You can't much more plainer than that.

Joh 10:30  εγω και ο πατηρ εν εσμεν

There's the greek for you, I hope it comes out good! LOL. Here's a bit of info concerning this verse:

Our language admits not of the precision of the original in this great saying. “Are” is in the masculine gender - “we (two persons) are”; while “one” is neuter - “one thing.” Perhaps “one interest” expresses, as nearly as may be, the purport of the saying. There seemed to be some contradiction between His saying they had been given by His Father into His own hands, out of which they could not be plucked, and then saying that none could pluck them out of His Father’s hands, as if they had not been given out of them. “Neither have they,” says He; “though He has given them to Me, they are as much in His own almighty hands as ever - they cannot be, and when given to Me they are not, given away from Himself; for HE AND I HAVE ALL IN COMMON.” Thus it will be seen, that, though oneness of essence is not the precise thing here affirmed, that truth is the basis of what is affirmed, without which it would not be true. And Augustine was right in saying the “We are” condemns the Sabellians (who denied the distinction of Persons in the Godhead), while the “one” (as explained) condemns the Arians (who denied the unity of their essence).

(James Fausset Brown Commentary)

As for your "Son of Man" comment...I'll let Scofield expound on that, he's done hours upon hours more research than I and is more qualified to expound.

Our Lord thus designates Himself about eighty times. It is His racial name as the representative Man, in the sense of (1Co_15:45-47) as Son of David is distinctly his Jewish name, and Son of God His divine name. Our Lord constantly uses this term as implying that his mission (for example); (Mat_11:19); (Luk_19:10). His death and resurrection (for example); (Mat_12:40); (Mat_20:18); (Mat_26:2) and His second coming (for example); (Mat_24:37-44); (Luk_12:40) transcended in scope and result all merely Jewish imitations. When Nathanael confesses him as "King of Israel," our Lord's answer is, "Thou shalt see greater things. . . The angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man." When His messengers are cast out by the Jews, His thought leaps forward to the time when the Son of man shall come, not then to Israel only but to the race; (Mat_10:5-6); (Mat_8:23). It is in this name, also, that universal judgment is committed to Him (Joh_5:22-27). It is also a name indicating that in Him is fulfilled the Old Testament foreview of blessing through a coming man.

Notice that Jesus is called the Son of Man because of His lineage to the throne of David. That's evident even to the most lowly of Bible students. Just a few thoughts. God Bless

Joshua

Also, I found a bit of commentary on my post about Phillipians. I think it might be beneficial for this discussion.

Philippians 2:6 translates:  “Who subsisting (or existing, namely, originally: the Greek is not the simple substantive verb, ‘to be’) in the form of God (the divine essence is not meant: but the external self-manifesting characteristics of God, the form shining forth from His glorious essence). The divine nature had infinite BEAUTY in itself, even without any creature contemplating that beauty: that beauty was ‘the form of God’; as ‘the form of a servant’ (Phi_2:7), which is in contrasted opposition to it, takes for granted the existence of His human nature, so ‘the form of God’ takes for granted His divine nature [Bengel], Compare Joh_5:37; Joh_17:5; Col_1:15, ‘Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God’ at a time before ‘every creature,’ 2Co_4:4, esteemed (the same Greek verb as in Phi_2:3) His being on an equality with God no (act of) robbery” or self-arrogation; claiming to one’s self what does not belong to him. Ellicott, Wahl, and others have translated, “A thing to be grasped at,” which would require the Greek to be harpagma, whereas harpagmos means the act of seizing. So harpagmos means in the only other passage where it occurs, Plutarch [On the Education of Children, 120]. The same insuperable objection lies against Alford’s translation, “He regarded not as self-enrichment (that is, an opportunity for self-exaltation) His equality with God.” His argument is that the antithesis (Phi_2:7) requires it, “He used His equality with God as an opportunity, not for self-exaltation, but for self-abasement, or emptying Himself.” But the antithesis is not between His being on an equality with God, and His emptying Himself; for He never emptied Himself of the fullness of His Godhead, or His “BEING on an equality with God”; but between His being “in the FORM (that is, the outward glorious self-manifestation) of God,” and His “taking on Him the form of a servant,” whereby He in a great measure emptied Himself of His precedent “form,” or outward self-manifesting glory as God. Not “looking on His own things” (Phi_2:4), He, though existing in the form of God, He esteemed it no robbery to be on an equality with God, yet made Himself of no reputation. “Being on an equality with God, is not identical with subsisting in the form of God”; the latter expresses the external characteristics, majesty, and beauty of the Deity, which “He emptied Himself of,” to assume “the form of a servant”; the former, “HIS BEING,” or NATURE, His already existing STATE OF EQUALITY with God, both the Father and the Son having the same ESSENCE. A glimpse of Him “in the form of God,” previous to His incarnation, was given to Moses (Exo_24:10, Exo_24:11), Aaron, etc.
made himself of no reputation, and ... and — rather as the Greek, “emptied Himself, taking upon him the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.” The two latter clauses (there being no conjunctions, “and ... and,” in the Greek) expresses in what Christ’s “emptying of Himself” consists, namely, in “taking the form of a servant” (see on Heb_10:5; compare Exo_21:5, Exo_21:6, and Psa_40:6, proving that it was at the time when He assumed a body, He took “the form of a servant”), and in order to explain how He took “the form of a servant,” there is added, by “being made in the likeness of men.” His subjection to the law (Luk_2:21; Gal_4:4) and to His parents (Luk_2:51), His low state as a carpenter, and carpenter’s reputed son (Mat_13:55; Mar_6:3), His betrayal for the price of a bond-servant (Exo_21:32), and slave-like death to relieve us from the slavery of sin and death, finally and chiefly, His servant-like dependence as man on God, while His divinity was not outwardly manifested (Isa_49:3, Isa_49:7), are all marks of His “form as a servant.” This proves: (1) He was in the form of a servant as soon as He was made man. (2) He was “in the form of God” before He was “in the form of a servant.” (3) He did as really subsist in the divine nature, as in the form of a servant, or in the nature of man. For He was as much “in the form of God” as “in the form of a servant”; and was so in the form of God as “to be on an equality with God”; He therefore could have been none other than God; for God saith, “To whom will ye liken Me and make Me equal?” (Isa_46:5), [Bishop Pearson]. His emptying Himself presupposes His previous plenitude of Godhead (Joh_1:14; Col_1:19; Col_2:9). He remained full of this; yet He bore Himself as if He were empty.

I figured i'd throw that out there for those who really wanna get into it. God Bless!

Joshua

So, that's all? Maybe, for now.

You didn't even comment on my post regarding how can Jesus forgive sins. Maybe, it's clear for you for now.

We'll take John 10:30 first.

I've read your contention regarding the passage.

But you haven't emphasized why did Jesus said "I and My Father are one."

There must be reasons.

Again, in what sense are Jesus and Father one?
Focus first, which is important, on the discussion going on in that particular moment.

By saying "I and My Father are one", we cannot directly conclude that Jesus has meant that He and His Father are one God. However, those who have heard those words thought that Jesus was claiming to be God Hmself.

Actually, Jesus rebuked them. Jesus was not claiming He is God Himself.

Now, in what sense are Jesus and His Father one? I like to hear this from you.

Thank you.

Jury
;)

Since the beginning, men have sought to separate the Son from the Father in many ways; either from denying the deity of the Son or the equality or eternality, or from basic, foundational doctrine of the Holy Trinity.  Some have become confused by these lies, and have a hard time seeing the truth.  I trust that those denying the Godhead of Jesus Christ herein are the latter and not the former.  

Jesus Christ is, has been, and always will be God-very-God.  He was made flesh.  He has always been the great I AM.  The same yesterday, today and tomorrow.  The Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end.  Creator.  Upholder.  King.  Christ.  God.  Man.  Son.  God-very-God.

Jury,

One would have to ignore both the Old Testament and the New Testament of the Holy Bible to believe that Jesus Christ was not and is not Almighty God - The Creator. A host of Scriptures has already been posted here that proves this fact, so it isn't a matter of debate.

It's really a matter of whether you:

Believe what the Holy Bible most clearly and obviously states;

Believe and have faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour.

Many false religions and false cults teach that Jesus was just a man, just anything other than Almighty God, or just a myth. We are really talking about your eternal position: either lost and going to hell for eternal punishment or Saved by the Precious Blood of JESUS and spending eternity with HIM in Heaven.

Jury, this is the most serious question of your life. Most of us here have already answered this question and belong completely to JESUS forever. Jesus Christ did die a most horrible death on the CROSS for us over 2,000 years ago, but HE arose from the dead and is our LIVING LORD AND SAVIOUR - ALMIGHTY GOD - THE CREATOR. Your disagreement will not change this absolute fact, nor will it have any impact on anyone but you. The impact your decision has on you is horrendous, the most important decision of your entire life.

Today is a good day to accept JESUS CHRIST as your personal Lord and Saviour. Tomorrow may be too late.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Philippians 4:7  And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

1st Timothy 4:10  For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Galatians 4:4-7  But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Isaiah 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Philippians 3:9  And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

1 Timothy 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

John 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Revelation 1:8  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Colossians 2:8-10  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Jury,

Isaiah 53 is a beautiful portion of Scripture in the Old Testament. It speaks volumes, and there is no doubt at all that Isaiah is foretelling the most precious event in human history: JESUS AND THE CROSS. This is just a small sample.

Isaiah 53:1  Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Isaiah 53:2  For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Isaiah 53:3  He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isaiah 53:4  Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isaiah 53:5  But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isaiah 53:6  All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isaiah 53:7  He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isaiah 53:8  He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isaiah 53:9  And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Isaiah 53:10  Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isaiah 53:11  He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isaiah 53:12  Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
__________________

It's very sad that many still reject our Precious Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Philippians 1:21  For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

   I was at the depths of despair in my life....I went to a healing service at a local church in my town. I knelt there for a long time in the pews,thinking of leaving. I didn't think God could use someone like me. I prayed for an answer from him. I then was like in a deep sleep but wasn't. I saw Jesus staring at me. He had the crown of thorns in his head and was bleeding.His face was beaten.He looked right into my eyes and said " why aren't you following me?". That's all he said.I opened my eyes to relize I was still kneeling there in the church. I went up and recieved the holy spirit that day.
    I tell you this because I know from what I saw;that Jesus is the only begotten son of God. Jesus is one with God and the Holy Spirit.Thank you Lord for changing my life that day.

Amen, blackeyedpeas, understanding who Jesus is tantamount to our Salvation.

Jury, there are many verses telling us who Jesus is that man has taken and twisted to their own understanding.

There is nothing more clear than:

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

To see and understand these verses is to understand what Jesus meant in the following verses.

Joh 8:23  And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
Joh 8:24  I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.


 

Clearly, it is the Father (the only true God) who gave Christ the authority to forgive sins. If Jesus Christ is God, He don't need to be given such authority because all authorities are God inherently (the very sense of being omnipotent).
You forget that Jesus is the last Adam. He is also the second Man.
The second Man is the God/Man made up of the Lord Spirit and Man.
1 Cor 15
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening pirit.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
2 Cor 3
17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
How can the Man Jesus be the Holy Spirit?
When Jesus rose from the Dead he became a quickening Spirit. Something wonderful happened in the Godhead! The element of man is forever in in the Godhead in the person of Christ. When we receive Christ into our spirit we receive the Man Christ Jesus and the Triune God.
When God became flesh in the incarnation, God entered for the first time into the very nature of man in the person of Jesus Christ!. In the ressurrection man now has entered into God. This is the mystery of Godliness! If you are in Christ you are in God! Try to fathom that! The Church is the organic body of Christ. This is not mere rhetoric but pure reality!
John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Eph 4
4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Jesus is all in all! He fills all. He is the Lord Spirit!
Jesus is at the right hand of the Father and yet he fills all things as the Lord Spirit! The Father is "in you all." The Triune God dwells in us! He is to be enjoyed. You cannot fathom this, He is simply to be believed on!
1 Tim 3
16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

asaph- loving and enjoying God!

Amen Brothers!

Many celebrate our RISEN SAVIOUR today. I celebrate our LIVING LORD AND SAVIOUR, JESUS CHRIST EVERY DAY. I give thanks that HE Saved me and lives in my heart.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Colossians 1:12-14  Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Now, my question was ignored.

Nobody answered my question. Instead, it was responded with many self-interpreted passages, malicious notions, and Scriptural contradictions.

Taking, the instance of the one who is confused asking: If Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior is God, and we only have one God, and the Father of Jesus is not the Son [because Jesus Himself is the Son], WHY did Jesus Christ Himself proclaimed that the ONLY true God is the Father - His Father - our Father? If the Father is the only true God, what is Jesus? Is Jesus the Father? If God is made of the three: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spririt - and each is recognized as God - how come that Jesus introduced the Father as the only true God?

Confusion raises questions. Please don't ignore.

And don't use any Biblical passages that contradict these truth... and please don't self-interpret them.

Thank you.

Jury,

If you wish to use the Holy Bible, your question has been answered in an overwhelming manner with proof positive. If you are depending on the Koran for your Bible, that's your problem.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 17:17  Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Jury,

The problem that you are having is reading some scriptures and not them all. There are no contradictions in the Bible except in your view. Your question has been answered many times, you have been given plenty of proof that God came to us in the flesh for our Salvation. You have closed your eyes and your heart to these facts, reading certain portions of scripture and not accepting others, saying that the others are self-interpreted by us when the scriptures given to you are quite clear in themselves without need for interpretation by anyone.

My prayers are for you that your eyes and heart will be opened to this.

Hey Jury,

I didn't respond to your post right after mine because I got busy here at the house, and wasn't able to post anything or get to a computer. Things get a bit hectic around my house this time of year with school, church, and other activities of that nature. So i'm sure you'll understand why I havn't responded as soon as I did. Don't think I was shying away from our discussion. I just momentarily got busy, and I will be busy for maybe the next week or so, so my daily posting will drop. If you'll noticed, i did comment on John 10:30. I tried to post it in the greek, but it wouldn't work...so i'm learning how to put the greek on here so you can read it for yourself then you'll see that Jesus was making a statement, not in a rebuking way. I think Pastor Roger summed it up right nicely. I've answered your question..maybe not from my own lips (or fingers in this case) but I have answered your question nevertheless. God Bless.

Joshua

Hi Jury.

Those are well thought-out points. I will try to address each one.

Quote from: Jury on March 22, 2005, 08:34:43 AM



Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Hbr 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world


Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

 Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Those passages do not prove that Jesus Christ Himself existed in the beginning. Jesus was born after Abraham. Being a descendant and a Seed to Abraham - that means AFTER. So why did Jesus said, "before Abraham was born I am" ?

As I said, Jesus Christ was called the "firstborn to all creations" ... but not literally born first. In what manner then? Apostles proclaimed "Jesus was FOREKNOWN" before the foundation of the world. If Jesus Himself existed before the foundation of the world, why need to be "FOREKNOWN"?

Again, my contention remains TRUE when the Bible said that the Creator is the God our Father. When it says, its the Father - its the Father. So why the Bible says "everything created BY Jesus" ? Does it mean that Jesus Himself is the Creator? No. The Bible says: The world was made THROUGH Him and BY Him... in what manner? God our Father created everything FOR Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ our Lord became the sole reason why God our Father created everything.

Now, again, I asked:

If Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior is God, and we only have one God, and the Father of Jesus is not the Son [because Jesus Himself is the Son], WHY did Jesus Christ Himself proclaimed that the ONLY true God is the Father - His Father - our Father? If the Father is the only true God, what is Jesus? Is Jesus the Father? If God is made of the three: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spririt - and each is recognized as God - how come that Jesus introduced the Father as the only true God?


Simple questions.

If Jesus was not God then His blood could not be counted righteous that was shed for your and my sins and was not enough for salvation.   His blood however, was righteous enough because He was sinless....Who other than God is sinless?


Yes!

Joh 14:8  Philip *said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."
Joh 14:9  Jesus *said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
NASB

Jesus' own words.



God IS one God, in three persons.   We probably will not fully understand it until we see firsthand, but it is clearly taught in scripture.


Read carefully...

Col 2:8  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9  For in him (Christ) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
KJV

Once again in NASB

Col 2:8  See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
Col 2:9  For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
Col 2:10  and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
Col 2:11  and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
Col 2:12  having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

The fullness of the entire Godhead dwells in Jesus in bodily form.   Not easy to understand, but there it is in black in white.   Jesus Christ was God in the flesh, or we are still in our sins.


Simple answers!   ;)

Grace and Peace!

AAAAAAAAMMMMMMMEEEENNNNNN!!!!!!![/i][/u]

Welcome back Bro!  :)

Thanks!   You were making me feel guilty....lol j/k

Not really enough time to spend on many threads right now, but I found this one difficult to pass up  :)

It's quite obvious that you only read and comprehend what you want to.  So why did Jesus say "before Abraham was born I AM"?  It's rather obvious that Jesus was claiming Himself to be the same as the I AM who introduced Himself to Abraham....and that HE EXISTED BEFORE Abraham.  Duh!


You like to hang your hat on one statement, which is a blatant disregard for the rules of competent exegesis and hermeneutics.  It is also quite apparent from the entire context of the passages that the entire plan of salvation, including His taking on the form of man and paying the price for sin INSTEAD of requiring man to pay it himself.  That's called mercy, and grace.  The PLAN WAS FOREKNOWN.


Your contention is false, because you cannot understand the simplicity of the meaning of words. The Bible says "...created BY Jesus", then ask the question "why does it say that?".  Why else?  Because JESUS CREATED!  That's why. And if the Bible says Jesus created, then He created. OTOH, to throw that out because you simply don't like it is to equate yourself with God, and declare you know more about Him and His Word than HE does.  Sheer arrogance.


Simple answer, but you won't get it.  Although Jesus was God, and was with God, LOWERED HIMSELF, to be found in the form of man. Jesus WILLINGLY subjected Himself (although equal) to the authority of the Father, to become the Son (of God and of man), for the purpose of redeeming mankind. He remains in obedience and subjection to the Father until ALL THINGS HAVE BEEN REDEEMED, and placed under the total and absolute control of the Father.

When Jesus (as son of man) was spoken of as a "good man", He responded with "there is none good except my Father who is in heaven."  Another example of His willing obedience and subjection.

Final word...."...unless you believe {that} I AM, then you will die in your sins."

amen bros

Well, Jury I think the brothers addressed your points very well. There's still a problem with what you think about Romans 1:4
"Who was designated the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness out of the resurrection of the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord;"

Why would Jesus have to be designated the Son of God if He was already the Son of God?

This is why:

In eternity past, Jesus was already the only begotten Son of God. However, from His death and resurrection Jesus was designated the Firstborn Son of God. WHY? So that Jesus being the FIRSTborn could have many brothers. In a family with one child, there is no Firstborn. That child is the only child. However, when the parents have another child then that first child is designated to be the Firstborn.

DONT YOU SEE THIS WONDERFUL REVELATION???!!! Jesus through His death and resurrection became the FIRSTBORN SON. That means WE are God's children. Jesus became the Firstborn so that He could have many brothers. God is transforming us into God. God became man so that man can become God. God's purpose is for us to become like Him. So we can glorify God for we are made in His image.

John 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name

God's purpose for us is to make us His children. Jesus is the Firstborn.

Jesus was 100% man and 100% God. Jesus was not half man and half God. He was fully man and fully God. He was a man carrying the fullness of God. He had to become man to reach man. God came down in the form of man so that He could bring us back to Him.

Fallen man is first 100% man.

After receiving Jesus Christ your spirit has been born again. It is born of God. You are now 100% man and 33.3% God.

As you keep surrendering yourself to God who is in you; God starts to take over your mind, emotion, and will (components of your soul). You are then becoming more like God; 66.6% God.

Then when Jesus comes back and we see Him, our lowly bodies will be instantly transformed into His glorified body. You are then 100%man and 100% God. (NOTE: THIS DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE GOD AS IN THE GODHEAD. THE GODHEAD IS THE OMNIPOTENT ALL-KNOWING UNLIMITED GOD.)

We are then able to reflect God's glory. Where we had once fallen short of the glory of God; we now reflect the complete glory of God. Where once we were unfit to become the bride of Jesus Christ; we are now able for we are then the same species.

You see...we are now united to the Lord and One with Him in spirit (1 cor 6:17). Let us now renew our minds to be one with the Lord in our mind. In the future when Jesus comes back our bodies will be the same as His. Then we will be completely One (phil 3:21). As a husband and wife become one flesh so we become entirely One with God.


Jury, if you only believe that Jesus was a man then you are missing out on a lot of His riches. If Jesus was only a man to you He can do nothing for you. Jesus was not just a man but God. God can do anything (With God nothing is impossible luke 1:37). . Apart from Jesus you can do nothing (john 15:5). However, with Jesus you can do all things (phil 4:13). This is only possible because Jesus is God.

Not to start a debate on top of another debate, I have to disagree, in part, with you Felix.  Please understand brother that I do so in love.   :)


You said:


I agree with you completely.  Well said!  You also said:


Here's where I start to disagree.  Man is, and always will be man.  The difference is that in the beginning, we were made perfect, and in the image of God.  Our sin made us fail as perfect image bearers.  This, I believe, is key in being biblical in our understanding of what it means to be Christlike.  Being like Christ isn't being God.  It's being, as Christ was, the perfect man.  The perfect man reflects God's glory, he doesn't become God.  The perfect man is rewarded with a share of Christ's inheritance, he doesn't become Christ.  The perfect man is blessed with Christ's promise of power in His name, he doesn't become the omnipotent God.  You said:


Again I must disagree.  While surrender does change, it's into the image of Christ that we are changed.  When we are saved, God justifies us by the blood of His perfect Son, Jesus Christ.  In our daily walk with Him, He, through His Word and His Holy Spirit, sanctifies us - changes us into the image of His Son.  When we are before Him in glory, He glorifies us, removing this man of sin and flesh, and making us as we were intended to be - bearers of His glorious image.  Sinless.  Perfect.  But not God.  Mirrors, rather, of God.

I only posted now, so as to avoid misunderstandings that this may cause younger believers.  God is so gracious to us, isn't He?  Praise His name.   :)

Amen!

Grace and Peace!

I wasnt clear. I didnt mean we become God as in the Godhead. That's quite different.

Fallen man is 100% man and 0% God. (not God as in Godhead)

To walk with Christ we must let Christ reign in us. That is how we change. We let Christ take over. He must increase, we must decrease (john 3:30). This is surrendering.

We were made to contain God. And ultimately to be His expression. A father wants his children to look like him. That's what God wants for us; to be like Him. And God is living in us as the spirit transforming us right now.

Jesus was a man carrying the fullness of the Godhead. This is why Jesus is the only way to the Father. He carried divinity in his humanity. He is the link between man, who is 100% humanity, and God who is 100% divinity.

I want you to understand why I choose the numbers:
33.3% (1/3) and 66.6% (2/3).

Our being is made up of 3 parts: spirit, soul, and body.

When we are born again we are born again of the spirit. This is born of God. So one-third of us has divinity or God. Then in our life we let God take over our mind, emotion, and will. This is our soul. So that's two-thirds of who we are. Finally, on Christ's return our bodies will be transformed in the blink of an eye. And our lowly bodies of humiliation will become the glorious bodies. So we are completely -100%- God (not Godhead). In this way we are just like Jesus who is the Firstborn among us who are His brothers. We are also His bride; as we know that man and woman are united as one. All these things point out that we become just like God (not the Godhead).

You see...in the Genesis, Adam found no suitable counterpart after naming and seeing every animal...now mark this...The only suitable counterpart was taken OUT of Adam. From Adam's rib God made woman (word 'woman' for she was taken out of man) to be the counterpart for Adam. She was the flesh of Adam. They were the same species. These things are illustrations.

Before we were constituted with Sin. Now we are constituted with God.

Eph 5:31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
1 Cor 6:16What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
2 Cor 3:17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Read carefully the above verses. The Lord [Jesus] is that Spirit. He that is joined to the Lord is one spirit. The oneness of Christ and the church is just as real as the oneness of a husband and wife. There is a life union here. Our lives are indeed one with the Lord Spirit. Not theoretically but actually.
When Jesus rose from the dead he became the quickening pirit
1 Cor 15:45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
I purposefully capitalized spirit for the Lord is that Spirit. And Paul says in Eph 4 that there is one Spirit. Therefore Jesus is that Spirit. When Jesus rose from the dead His humanity became an element within the Spirit. He is still a man and He is also the Spirit. Other wise we would have to say there are two Spirits. but we know there is one Spirit.
There is the element of humanity forever in the Godhead. Through incarnation, death, resurrection and ascension this process of bringing man into God has been accomplished.
Because of this it is possible for us to enter into this wonderful God.
John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Think of it! We are one with God! (without actually becoming the Godhead). We are partakers of the divine nature. Jesus is the divine nature and we are partakers of Him.
God is in the process today of bringing many sons to glory. Those of us who have placed our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ are in the Father and in the Son by the Spirit.
Gal 3:26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Enjoy this union!

asaph

Amen!

Lord Jesus, we unite ourselves with you! Be one with us in spirit. Take over our mind, emotion and will. Thank you Lord that you want to be one with us. Give us your divine nature Lord.

-Jury

I am assuming that since you are using " Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." shows that you accept that passage as truth.

Jesus claim to deity could not have been more clear in that passage.  Jesus was not just merely claiming to be the son of God He was claiming equality to God.  The concept using the term I AM was significant to the Jews because in Moses first encounter with God, God identifies Himself as I AM who I AM Exodus 3 vs 14. Jesus was not claiming God's foreknowlege of
his existence.  He was claiming to be God.  

You may argue that the Jews took it out of context...that line or reasoning brings up an interesting quandry.  If Jesus was a  only God's chosen man as you claim, then morally He cannot lie.  So He either A.) knowingly mislead the Jews by making a statement knowing full well how they would interpret it without clarifying his position AKA he lied therefore he cannot be a moral man B.) He spoke the truth and you must accept His claim.

In similar fashion when confronted by the Pharisees and Sadducees before crucifixion His response was "I AM " Mark 14 vs 62 once again you are confronted by His claim either A.) knowingly mislead the Jews by making a statement knowing full well how they would interpret it without clarifying his position AKA He lied and died for His lies.  B.) He spoke the truth and you must accept His claim.

You are correct in not finding alot of direct claims made  by Christ to be God.   However the times He does claim His deity could not even be more clear. There are alot of allusions and that is intentional because the whole point of Christianity is to force the individual to make a personal decision on who Christ is.

If you will not accept a scriptual argument maybe you will accept a metaphysical argument, Christ needs to be God and existing outside of time in the begining, the here and now and the end.  The OT concept and understanding of the sacrificial lamb is that any sin committed up until the sacrifice of lamb is covered by the blood-propitiation. It does not cover sins that will be commited in the future.  If Christ only existed as a temporal man, then Christians after the crucifixion are pretty much out of luck.  Christ has to come again and again to die, which is unscriptual.  The only way for Christ to die once and be ressurected and have that death have any significant meaning,  a truth that spans the begining of human history to today and to the end is for Christ to be God.  For the death to take place in time and outside of time. The paradox pr mystery of Christianity is that when Christ died on the cross, He died out through out all time as well and when He was ressurected he was ressurected through out all time as well.  The existence of both states concurrently can be found in quantum physics in the metal experiment known as Schroders Cat.

Or maybe you will accept a scientific or natural model of the trinity.  You are saying that God cannot exist as three seperate persons.  You are claiming it is illogical.  How do you explain h2o then?  liquid, solid and gas.  When it is a liquid aka water its still made up of h2o, when it is solid aka ice its still made up of h2o, when gas its still made up of h2o.  Each one having distinctly separate  propperties.  Water is not Ice, and Ice is not Gas.

Lastly from a historical argument the claim of Christian Orthodoxy requires the acceptance of the trinity.  It is a concept that has withstood 2000 years of Christian history.  If God is indeed God, then don't you think He would protect the integrity of His word?  Are you making claims to have this sudden divine revelation that you are correct and the rest of orthodox Christianity is wrong?  If that is true what does that teach about the nature of God?  God lies?  God allows people to be decieved?

Its good to ask questions that is the only way we will learn but we also have to intellectually honest when presented with the facts. That is the true choice of being a follower of Christ, Who do you say He is?

Thankyou john vencer for that good explaination. In case that is not enough I'd like to add that although we cannot fully understand this mystery of the trinity of the Godhead, we can receive and enjoy this mysterious God. We cannot understand, but we can enjoy! In former days men had no knowledge of vitamins, though they greatly enjoyed their benefit. Praise the Lord! The Triune God is not for us to understand, but to enjoy. All that He is for us to enjoy is revealed in the Scriptures; we can simply accept it according to scriptural revelation. Although we cannot fully understand it, yet we may, according to all that is declared in the Scriptures, accept whatever is said.

For instance, John 1:1 says, "The Word was with God," and it also says, "The Word was God." Based upon the statement "the Word was with God," the Word and God are two distinct entities. But the declaration "the Word was God," clearly indicates that the Word and God are one. Are they two then, or are they actually one? We cannot clearly explain such a mystery. But we can accept what is said in the Scriptures just as it is.

Furthermore, 2 Corinthians 3:17 says, "The Lord is the Spirit," and it also says, "The Spirit of the Lord." "The Lord is the Spirit" tells us that the Lord and the Spirit are one. Thus, in the following verse the Lord is called "the Lord Spirit." ("The Spirit of the Lord" is "the Lord Spirit" in the original text.) "The Lord Spirit" as a compound name is used to show that the two, the Lord and the Spirit, are one. But the title, "the Spirit of the Lord," clearly indicates that the Lord and the Spirit are two. We really cannot thoroughly understand this kind of statement. But since the Scriptures have said it, we must accept it as such.

asaph

Think about this-
"The Scriptures in many instances and in many ways tell us that God is uniquely one. Both in the Old Testament and in the New, there are many passages which declare this. We select here just a few:

First Corinthians 8:4: "There is no God but one."

Isaiah 45:5: "I am Jehovah and there is no one else;/Besides Me there is no God." In verses 6, 21, and 22; 46:9; and 44:6, 8, we also find the same words.

In these passages God repeatedly says, "There is no God besides Me." He does not say, "There is no God besides us," but, "There is no God besides Me." "Me" is singular, only one. These repeated declarations of God strongly prove that God is uniquely one.

Psalm 86:10: "Thou art God alone." Here it does not say, "Ye are God alone," but, "Thou art God alone." This also proves that God is only one. It is "Thou," not many, as would be signified by "Ye."

That God is one is a clear and definite revelation of the Scriptures. But in Christianity, besides this orthodox teaching or interpretation, which is based on the clearly stated revelation of the Scriptures, some say that there are three Gods—the Father is one God, the Son is one God, and the Spirit also is one God, and these three become one corporate God. Individually speaking, they say, there are three Gods; corporately speaking there is one.

Others say that there are two Gods—the Father is one, and the Son also is one, but the Spirit is not, because the Father has His person and the Son also has His person, but the Spirit is only a power, a means, just like electricity, and has no person.

Such statements concerning the existence of three Gods or two Gods are contradictory to the fundamental revelation of the Scriptures; therefore, we should not accept them. We must stand absolutely on the scriptural revelation and believe that God is one."- Witness Lee

asaph

Isaiah 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

In Isaiah 6:8 God says, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" God speaks of Himself on one hand as "I" and on the other hand as "us." This proves that "I" is "us" and "us" is "I"; "I" and "us" are identical. Then is God singular or plural? If you say He is plural, He says "I." If you say He is singular, He says "us." This is rather mysterious and difficult to understand; so we just take the scriptural revelation as it is.

Furthermore, in Genesis 1:26; 3:22; and 11:7, God also speaks of Himself as "us." The unique God, in His divine words, has many times spoken of Himself as "us." This is really a mystery difficult to comprehend. But we must believe that this is due to the matter of the three persons of the Godhead—the Father, Son, and Spirit.- Witness Lee

asaph

Each person in the Godhead is described as:

eternal
                               Father
Rom 16:26  but now has been made plain, and by prophetic Scriptures, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known for obedience of faith to all the nations;
                                 Son
Rev 22:13  I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, the First and the Last. - Jesus Christ
                                 Spirit
Heb 9:14  by how much more the blood of Christ (who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God), will purify your conscience from dead works, to serve the living God!



Omnipresent (Everywhere)
                             Father
Jer 23:24  Or can anyone hide himself in secret places so that I do not see him, says Jehovah? Do I not fill the heavens and the earth, says Jehovah?
                              Son
Eph 1:23  which is His body: the fullness of the One filling all things in all;
Eph 4:10  He that came down is the same who also went up above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.
                            Holy Spirit
Psa 139:7  Where shall I go from Your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from Your face?



Omniscient (All Knowing)
                              Father
Act 15:18  All His works are known to God from eternity.
                                Son
Joh 21:17  Thirdly, He said to him, Simon son of Jonah, do you love Me? Peter was grieved that He said to him a third time, Do you love Me? And he said to him, Lord, You perceive all things, You know that I love You! Jesus said to him, Feed My sheep!
                               Spirit
1Co 2:10  But God revealed them to us by His Spirit, for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.



Creator
                               Father
Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth;
                                 Son
Col 1:16  For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible; whether thrones, or lordships, or rulers, or authorities, all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Joh 1:3  All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
 
                                Spirit
Job 33:4  The Spirit of God made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
Job 26:13  By His Spirit the heavens were beautiful; His hand pierced the fleeing snake.



Source of Eternal Life
                                Father
Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is everlasting life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
                                  Son
Joh 10:28  And I give eternal life to them, and they shall not perish to the age, never! And not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand.
                                Spirit
Gal 6:8  For the one sowing to his flesh will reap corruption of the flesh. But the one sowing to the Spirit will reap everlasting life from the Spirit.



This is evidence that Jesus is God!

asaph
 

1. The Father is God. First Peter 1:2 says, "God the Father." Ephesians 1:17 says, "God...the Father of glory." These verses tell us that the Father is God.

2. The Son is God. Hebrews 1:8 says, "Of the Son he saith...O God." John 1:1 says, "The Word was God." These tell us clearly that the Son is God.

3. The Spirit is God. Acts 5:3-4 says, "Why hath Satan filled thy heart to lie to the Holy Spirit...thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God." This word definitely tells us that the Spirit is also God.

Therefore, the Scriptures clearly reveal to us that all three—the Father, Son, and Spirit—are God. This does not mean, however, that They are three Gods. We have already seen how the Scriptures tell us clearly and definitely that God is only one. Although there are three—the Father, Son, and Spirit—yet the three are not three Gods, but one. This is really a mystery! It is unsearchable! But praise the Lord, we can simply receive and enjoy this mysterious One according to what the Scriptures have said!

asaph

Isaiah 9:6 says, "Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given...and his name shall be called...Mighty God, Everlasting Father." In this verse, the "Mighty God" matches the "child," and "Everlasting Father" matches the "son." Yes, He is a child, yet He is the Mighty God. The child who was born in the manger in Bethlehem was the Mighty God. Since the child and the Mighty God are one, so also the Son and the Everlasting Father are one. The Son is the Eternal Father. It is indeed difficult to fully explain this matter, yet the Scriptures have so said. "Unto us a son is given...and his name shall be called...Everlasting Father." Does this not plainly say that the Son is the Father? If the Son is not the Father, how could the "son" be called the "Father"? If we acknowledge that the "child" of which this verse speaks is the "Mighty God," then we must also acknowledge that the "son" of which this verse speaks is also the "Everlasting Father"; otherwise, we are not believing the clearly stated revelation of the Scriptures. But we do deeply believe that according to the words here the Lord Jesus who became the child is the Mighty God; and the Lord Jesus who is the Son is also the Eternal Father. Our Lord is the Son, and He is also the Father. Hallelujah!

John 14:7-11 says, "If ye had known me, ye would have known my Father also: from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake." In these verses the Lord clearly reveals to us the mystery that He and the Father are one; He is in the Father and the Father is in Him; when He speaks, it is the Father who works; when men see Him, they see the Father; when they know Him, they know the Father, because He is the Father; He "and the Father are one" (John 10:30).

asaph

Second Corinthians 3:17 says, "The Lord is the Spirit." The "Lord" spoken of here, of course, is the Lord Jesus; and "the Spirit," of course, is the Holy Spirit. Does this not clearly and definitely tell us that the Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit? Our Lord is the Holy Spirit. He is the Father, and He is also the Spirit. He is everything!

Many brothers and sisters have Darby's New Translation of the Bible. Darby was considered the one with the greatest knowledge of the Bible in the previous century. Some called him the king of expositors. In his New Translation of the New Testament, he puts the verses preceding 2 Corinthians 3:17, from verses 7 through 16, in parentheses, indicating that verse 17 immediately follows verse 6. The last part of verse 6 says, "The spirit giveth life." Therefore, according to Darby's realization, verse 17, "The Lord is the Spirit," indicates that the Lord is that Spirit which gives life, as mentioned in verse 6, and this Spirit which gives life, of course, is the Holy Spirit. Therefore, this proves that Darby acknowledged that the Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit.

Besides Darby, according to our knowledge, there were the following persons who, in their writings, based on 2 Corinthians 3:17, also acknowledged that the Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit:

1. In his book The Spirit of Christ, chapter twenty-five, Andrew Murray says, "It was when our Lord Jesus was exalted into the life of the Spirit that He became 'the Lord the Spirit.'...The disciples knew Jesus long, without knowing Him as the Lord the Spirit....There may in the ministry be much earnest gospel preaching of the Lord Jesus as the Crucified One, without the preaching of Him as the Lord the Spirit....It is as the knowledge and acknowledgement of Christ as the Lord the Spirit, and of the Spirit of Christ as changing believers into His likeness, lives in the Church, that the ministry among believers will be in Life and Power,—in very deed, a Ministry of the Spirit."

2. Henry Alford (an authority on the meaning of Greek words of the New Testament) in The New Testament for English Readers, vol. II, page 265, says, " 'The Lord' as here (2 Cor. 3:17) spoken of, 'Christ,' 'is the Spirit,' is identical with the Holy Spirit....Christ, here, is the Spirit of Christ."

3.Marvin R. Vincent in his Word Studies in the New Testament, vol. III, page 308, says, "The Lord Christ of verse 16 is the Spirit who pervades and animates the new covenant."

4. J. Oswald Sanders in his Spiritual Maturity (published by Moody Press), page 144, says, "William Barclay comments: Paul seems to identify the Risen Lord and the Holy Spirit. We must remember that Paul was not writing theology; he was setting down experience. And it is the experience of the Christian life that the work of the Spirit and the work of the Risen Lord are one and the same. The strength, the light, the guidance we receive come alike from the Spirit and from the Risen Lord. It does not matter how we express it so long as we experience it."

We are not the only ones who have seen from the revelation in 2 Corinthians 3 that the Lord is the Spirit; a number of spiritual men have seen it as well. Christ the risen Lord today is the life-giving Spirit. That is why the apostle Paul called Him the "Lord Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:18, Gk.). He is not only the Lord, but also the Lord Spirit.- Witness Lee

asaph

AMEN BROTHER ASAPH!

I enjoyed your posts. The only conclusion that can be reached with the Holy Bible is JESUS CHRIST is Almighty God - The Creator and The Holy Spirit. The three are ONE!

Brother, we have the absolute proof in our hearts.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 25:4  Shew me thy ways, O LORD; teach me thy paths.

So true Brother,
"The point is that God reveals Himself to be triune, first, because He is true and faithful in His testimony of Himself, and, second, because this economical revelation comforts our hearts and confirms within us that God is imminently knowable and experiential precisely because He is triune. As such, the doctrine of the Trinity is not a minor point in the Bible." John Pester

In other words we could not know God in us, we could not be one with Him if He were not triune.

The following verse is a wonderful benediction that confirms this!

2Co 13:14  The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

asaph

Jury,

You're getting closer. Just open your eyes and read a few more Scriptures. I'll give you a hint.


You just made an important discovery.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 100:3  Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

Jury,

I'm not talking about a portion of a sentence, rather a name. If you wish to use the Holy Bible, there is only one "I AM" - ALMIGHTY GOD, also known as the "GREAT I AM". There are portions of Scripture that are rendered:


There is only one - ALMIGHTY GOD!

Here's another hint for you - the LORD is also ALMIGHTY GOD.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 71:5  For thou art my hope, O Lord GOD: thou art my trust from my youth.

Jury,
You said and I quote: "Okay. Is Jesus Christ the One who said "I AM" in Exodus 3:14? The answer is NO. it was God. When Jesus uttered "I AM" [ego eimi] in John 8:58, was He indicating His alleged divinity? Definitely not."

Yes, Jesus is the one who said "I AM" in Exodus. God in His essence is Triune. Jesus as one with the Father said that He is "I Am" Let me quote the scripture in John 8:56

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59Then took they up stones to cast at him..."

The Jews point blank asked Jesus "hast thou seen Abraham?" Jesus answered "Before Abraham was, I am." In other words "Yes, I have seen Abraham because I Am" The Jews understood exactly what Jesus said and they considered it blasphemy. That's why they took up stones. This would have been a perfect opportunity for Jesus to tell them He was not God. But the fact is He never denied the Truth because He is God.

Jury, take a look at this verse:

1Jo 5:20  And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us an understanding that we should know him that is true; and we are in him that is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.


The first part of the verse refers to God. To know him that is true is to know God. Agree? Jesus has given us this understanding to know God. Agree?

The second part of the verse says "and we are in him that is true, in his son Jesus Christ." So we know that we are in him that is true, that is, in God. Right? In the phrase "in his son" who does the personal pronoun "his" refer to? God. Right? Right! In the phrase just before that we have another pronoun "him". This also refers to God. But the verse says something that does not make sense unless God is Triune. It says that these pronouns refer to His Son! And then to cap it all off the last part of the verse says he is the true God and eternal life! You can make absolutely no other interpretation of this verse without mutilating the word structure. I have seen others do so. Do not make that same mistake. Just simply enjoy God as he is and stop trying to make him fit into your finite mind. He is too wonderful for that. As God told Paul, "It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks"

asaph

Hey sixpack

I'm a newbie to the forum. As I have skimmed through many of the posts, your "is Jesus God" post and the various replies caught my eye. As Paul prayed for the Ephesians, I pray for you...that you would receive a "spirit of wisdom and revelation".

Many of the replies to your post were well written and well thought out. I will not repeat the blatant, obvious and overwhelming scriptural authentications of the deity of Christ.

Brother...the Bible is but deep weeds for the intellectual...you go there in your analytical mind with pre-suppositions at the fore and you simply walk through a small room out a door and find yourself (emphasis on self) in an alley out back.

What are you waiting for sixpack? When I realized that God would never have left us with a weak and questionable word and when I chose to appoach this beautiful word with reverence, and with the full confidence that it lives and breathes, I began to taste of Christ on every page. The Scripture is blessed beyond description, It is closed to the fleshly wisdom of man.. "The words I speak to you, they are Spirit and they are life".

Bairn

Amen!  Excellent first post Bairn.  Welcome to CU!

Grace and Peace!

Amen and amen!
asaph

Amen. I wrote a topic about 'Receiving the Word of God.' Maybe you should add to that since you have tasted the Lord.

1 Peter 2:2-3
As newborn babes, long for the pure milk of the word in order that by it you may grow unto salvation,

If you have tasted that the Lord is good.


You know, I use to approach the Word of God intellectually. (this was about the time God started to change me...http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=6140 (http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=6140)) I use to use so much reasoning. My writing was probably better too at the time...but I've learned to take the Word of God as my true daily bread. It is true that 'man does not live on bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God'.

You know how we live?

The bread of life is Jesus. Jesus is the Word of God.

John 6:35
Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall by no means hunger, and he who believes into Me shall by no means ever thirst.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God

John 1:14
And the Word BECAME FLESH and tabernacled among us (and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only Begotten from the Father), full of grace and reality.

Felix, Thanks for the "amen".

You wrote:

You know, I use to approach the Word of God intellectually. (this was about the time God started to change me...http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=6140)

I read the post at the link above. Right on target my friend. How amazing it is that this divine word is hidden from the spiritless intellect. I was just enjoying this morning, that Christ is all and in all. (col. 3:11)…He is The Word (John 1) and He is The Spirit (2cor. 3:17). How glorious ….this bread of life is “Hidden Manna” (rev. 2:17).

I’m a little wobbly on my navigation here in the forum. How do I find your post: “Receiving The Word”?

p.s. what is "I'm a llama" about?

Agape
Bairn

Hey bairn!

the topic 'Receiving the Word of God' is under general theology

or this link

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=7123 (http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=7123)

Im not sure what 'I'm a llama' means. Maybe that's a settle way to indicate that you're a newbie. I had that for a while when I joined.

You are correct Felix. From what I've gathered, "I'm a llama" is just the default message signifying people are newbies. Very good postings on your recent thread felix. Very good posts again brothers. Bairn, welcome to CU. I'm Joshua, and i'll be glad to help you with whatever it is you desire and to the best of my ability.

I have been extremely busy here as of late and havn't been able to sit down and post stuff for wuite a while. I've already written another sermon and a study that i've not been able to post on here, plus i'm getting ready to write up the second part to my study...lol. That's just how busy i've been as of late. That's not to say I havn't been reading it, i have, but i've not had the time lately to type out responses and do the research at that time. I hope ya'll forgive me, and i'll start getting caught up. God Bless.

Joshua

Jury

What is logically inconsistent with a pre-existing Christ during the time of the patriarchs?  He is God so he exists outside of time and space as well?  It would only be illogical if your base presuposition is a human christ existing in a specific point in time.

-In response to "I AM"

You still have not answered the context of Christ answering using the terms "I Am" especially in the jewish context.  In every instance of his answer the jews either were ready to stone him or considered him blasphemous because Jesus was equating himself to God.  You claim that is not what Christ meant, but the people certainly thought so.

Your line of reasoning is Jesus used the terms "I Am" to signify foreknowledge. However you still have not answered the problem this posses.  In the context of any of those passages, the jews of the day interpreted to mean Christ was equating himself to God.  

If Jesus was only God's choosen vessel then how could he have lied?  He could have set them straight and explained it to them, that would be consistent with the stance of a holy man from God but he didn't.  So based on your arguments Christ lied by ommission.  If that is the case then how could Christ have been the chosen one if he sinned?

To be intellectually consistent with your argument you must be willing to take your arguments to its logical conclusion.  Based on your presuppositions you cannot make the claim that Christ was the chosen one and yet deny his deity and still maintain the logical cohesion of your arguments.  If he was the chosen one then he must tell the truth, yet based on your argument your christ lied to the jewish people, lied to his followers and is lying now. How can a liar be the chosen lamb of God?

The question of the ages still is who do YOU say is Christ?

PS I am definitely a Illama

The Holy Trinity - Part 1

This is a beautiful portion of Scripture that speaks volumes.
____________________

John 14:1  Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
John 14:2  In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
John 14:4  And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
John 14:5  Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
John 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:7  If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
John 14:8  Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
John 14:9  Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
John 14:10  Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
John 14:11  Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
John 14:12  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
John 14:13  And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
John 14:14  If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
John 14:15  If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:16  And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever;
John 14:17  Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14:18  I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
John 14:19  Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 14:20  At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
John 14:21  He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 14:22  Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
John 14:23  Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
John 14:24  He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
John 14:25  These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
John 14:26  But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 14:27  Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
John 14:28  Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
John 14:29  And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
John 14:30  Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
John 14:31  But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
____________________  See Part 2

The Holy Trinity - Part 2

First, the real meat of this portion of precious Scripture is spoken by Jesus Christ Himself, our Lord and Saviour. It is one of the most powerful and revealing portions of Scripture in the Holy Bible. The Majesty and Truth of the Holy Trinity is revealed.

Jesus is talking to His disciples about going away, and the disciples' hearts are troubled.

One of the first key portion of this passage is when Jesus says, "ye believe in God, believe also in me." in verse 1.

The second key portion of this passage is verse 6 and 7: "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him." Jesus clearly states that if they have known and seen Him, they have also known and seen the Father.

However, Philip still questions Jesus and says, "show us the Father, and it sufficeth us." The reply of Jesus is the next key portion of Scripture in verses 9, 10, and 11:  "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake." The answer of Jesus couldn't be more clear. It makes me wonder why those who were so close to Jesus would have such questions.

The next key portion of Scripture reveals the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Holy Trinity, the three being ONE - Almighty GOD!:  "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

If there is any remaining doubt, Jesus addresses it by saying, "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you." Could there be a more powerful statement than this? Yet, do the disciples really understand that Jesus and the Father are ONE, that they will be in Jesus, and Jesus will be in them? How will Jesus be in them if not by the Holy Spirit? Jesus will make it clear that His presence in them will be by the Holy Spirit. It may not be clear to the disciples yet, but Jesus is the Father and the Holy Spirit. This is a difficult fact to understand, and it is still difficult to understand 2,000 years later. Almighty God is: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, and the Three are ONE!

The next key portion speaks of "The Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost," in verse 26. The Holy Ghost is another name for he Holy Spirit: "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

It is important to note that Jesus is telling his disciples things that will come to pass. Jesus makes it clear that He is foretelling them these things so that they will believe it in verses 28 and 29:  "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe." I am reflecting on what it would have been like to have been there with Jesus and see and hear all of the mighty signs and wonders designed to make men see and believe. But, there would be many more signs and wonders, and everything Jesus told them would come to pass. The greatest Truth would be the CROSS, Jesus arising from the dead, Jesus ascending back to Heaven, and the presence of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of believers that Jesus promised.

It would be possible to have many beautiful Bible studies on John 14. I just addressed some highlights of John 14, the TRUTH AND ABSOLUTE REALITY OF THE HOLY TRINITY! There are a host of other portions of Scripture that address the same TRUTH, but I think this one is particularly beautiful.

Love In Christ,
Tom

I Peter 1:18-19  Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

If you think Jesus is God, then who is sitting at the right hand of God?


Mark 16, verse 19 (NIV)

19 When the Lord Jesus finished speaking to them, he was taken up into heaven. He sat down at the right hand of God.

I know you've heard the term "trinity" you obviously can not, or will not understand it.

 Who do you think Jesus is? an angel? a created being?

Bronzesnake

GodWarrior,

It isn't simply a matter of what I think, rather what the Holy Bible teaches from cover to cover. I believe the Holy Bible, so it's a matter of what I know beyond any doubt - JESUS IS AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN ALMIGHTY GOD - THE CREATOR! The absolute same is true for the Holy Spirit. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit have always been ONE with no beginning and no end - ALMIGHTY GOD!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 11:33  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

John 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Revelation 1:8  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Isaiah 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

1 Timothy 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Posted scripture by Mr. BEP:
How can we ever match your love, Father? Praise You, Father, for Your personal sacrifice for us and your Spirit living within us.  Lord God - You became mortal to suffer and conquer man's iniquities and You are the Spirit living in our hearts.  The depth of your love and forgiveness cannot be comprehended by us.  Thank you, Jesus, for Your unending, unmatchable love.
Amen.

ATA (a triple amen!) BEP and JN!

uhhh no pun intended...lol  :D

"I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me." [John 5:30]  
; Is God's will different than Jesus' will ? Why isn't Jesus acting according to his own will ? Isn't he God ?  

 

"For I have not spoken on my own initiative; but the Father Himself who sent me, has given me commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak."[John 12: 49]
; If Jesus is God the Son, how can he accept commands from God the Father while "God the Son" and "God the Father" are the same along with "God the Spirit" ? Doesn't this sound like someone giving commands to himself ?

 

"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." [Mark 10:18]  
; If Jesus is God, why did he mention clearly that he shouldn't be called good and only God should be called good ? (Churchmen will answer : he directed a question at the young man and challenged him to think about what he was really saying about Jesus). Does this make any sense? If I call you 'strong', and you reply by "Why are you calling me strong, only Mike is strong" would this give -in anyway- an indication for me to think if you and mike are the same or if you are strong ? Of course no. Furthermore, If Jesus was challenging the young man, why didn't Jesus mention that he is God after he heard the reply of the young man? By reading the reply of the young man, anyone would conclude that the young man fully understood that Jesus is not God, If Jesus was God, why didn't he clarify this for him and say "I was challenging you, I myself am God and I am Good". There is more, in Verse 10:20, the young man calls Jesus 'Teacher', do you think this is a befitting name for God? Its so clear that the young man understood Jesus was not God.

 

"And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God." [Luke 6:12]
; Why is Jesus praying to God while he is God ? (according to the claim)

 

"But no one knows of that day and hour, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only" [Mathew 24:36]
"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father" [Mark 13:32]
; If Jesus is God, how come his knowledge is limited (no one knows of that day and hour except the Father only) ? Can a God's knowledge be limited in anyway ?  

 

"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord" [Mark 12:29]
; If Jesus is  God, why did he say "the Lord our God" ? Doesn't this explicitly point that he had a God ?

 

"You are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God” [John 8:31]
; If Jesus is God, this means he heard the truth from . . . himself ?

 

"So Jesus answered them, 'My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me' " [John 7:16]
; To whom does the teachings belong ? To Jesus? No because he mentioned that its not his. To God ? No because Jesus is God (according to the claim). To whom then?

 
"At once the Spirit sent him out into the desert, and he was in the desert forty days, being tempted by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and angels attended him." [NIV, Mark 1:12-13]
; According to the verse, Jesus was being tempted by Satan. Can God (the creator of Satan and the universe) be tempted by Satan ?  

 
"Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me." Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' " [NIV, Matthew 4:8-10]
; If Jesus is God, would the Devil promise him that he will give him the kingdoms of the world (while the ALL kingdoms of the world belong to God) ?

; If Jesus is God, shouldn't he have said "Thou shalt worship Me" instead of "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God" ?
 

GodWarrior,

God was made manifest in the flesh. Just because He lived as a man does not mean that He wasn't God. In fact, He was God before, during, and after being manifest in the flesh. Jesus was not just a man, a prophet, a teacher, or just anything else other than Almighty God.

Read and study the two massive threads, and maybe you will understand. Whether you understand or not, that won't change the absolute fact that Jesus was and is Almighty God. If you trust in any other, you would be lost, as JESUS is the ONLY way, the TRUTH, AND THE LIFE. No man comes to the Father but by HIM, primarily because HE is the FATHER! The Godhead, ALMIGHTY GOD, is a Holy Trinity, and the three are and always have been ONE!

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 6:33  For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Amen and amen.   :)

Go get a glass, put some ice in it, and then fill with water.  While doing that, enjoy the air you're breathing.

H2O....comes in three forms, solid, liquid and gas, is comprised of 3 molecules regardless of it's state, and co-exists.

And humanity cannot exist without it.

I understand what you are saying about Jesus is God. To me he's God but not God, if that makes sense. The water comparison is how we explain it in my church. I thought I read somewhere within this thread that Jesus created the world. I disagree with that. I worship God, not Jesus. I think we are thinking the same thing, accept I may have a different view of the trinity. Let me just explain where I'm coming from.

Many people assume that the Holy Spirit, along with God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son, form what is commonly known as the Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity expresses a belief in one God who exists in three distinct but equal persons. Is the Holy Spirit truly a third divine person, along with the Father and Jesus?

In spite of these assumptions, the word Trinity doesn't appear anywhere in the Bible. In fact, it did not come into common use as a religious term until several centuries after the last books of the Bible were completed.

Notice this admission in the New Bible Dictionary: "The term 'Trinity' is not itself found in the Bible. It was first used by Tertullian at the close of the 2nd century, but received wide currency and formal elucidation [clarification] only in the 4th and 5th centuries" (1996, "Trinity," emphasis added).

The dictionary goes on to explain that "the formal doctrine of the Trinity was the result of several inadequate attempts to explain who and what the Christian God really is ... To deal with these problems the Church Fathers met in 325 at the Council of Nicaea to set out an orthodox biblical definition concerning the divine identity." However, it wasn't until 381, "at the Council of Constantinople, [that] the divinity of the Spirit was affirmed ..." (ibid.).

We see, then, that the doctrine of the Trinity wasn't formalized until long after the Bible was completed and the apostles long dead in their graves. It took later theologians several centuries to sort out what they believed concerning the Holy Spirit.

And by no means are theologians' explanations of the Trinity doctrine clear. A.W. Tozer, in his book The Knowledge of the Holy, writes that the Trinity is an "incomprehensible mystery" and that attempts to understand it "must remain forever futile." He admits that churches, "without pretending to understand," have nevertheless continued to teach this doctrine (1961, pp. 17-18).

Unger's Bible Dictionary, in its article on the Trinity, concedes that the Trinitarian concept is humanly incomprehensible: "It is admitted by all who thoughtfully deal with this subject that the Scripture revelation here leads us into the presence of a deep mystery; and that all human attempts at expression are of necessity imperfect" (1966, p. 1118).

Why do even those who believe in the concept of the Holy Spirit as a third person of a supposedly triune Godhead, along with God the Father and Jesus the Son, find it so difficult to explain?

Because the Bible does not teach it! One cannot prove something from the Bible that is not biblical. The Bible is our only reliable source of divine revelation and truth, and the Trinity concept simply is not part of God's revelation to humankind.

The Holy Spirit, rather than a distinct person, is described in the Bible as being God's divine power.

GodWarrior,

The Holy Bible proves the Holy Trinity, and it was taught during the life of the Apostle Paul. There is nothing new at all here. In fact, the Holy Bible proves it over and over again. The absence of the word "Trinity" in the Holy Bible means nothing. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are all over the Holy Bible, and numerous locations clearly state that the three are one. Just skim part of the proof text in two huge threads, and it will be impossible to ignore. It doesn't take a Bible scholar to see it. "The Three are ONE" means exactly that. JESUS, the Son, and the HOLY SPIRIT were revealed and believed in over 2,000 years ago. AND, of course, the FATHER was known and believed in for human history.

Now, it's simply a matter of believing what the Holy Bible says from cover to cover or not. Even the Old Testament speaks of all three numerous times. Whoever may have missed the massive number of references in the New Testament must have either been asleep or the follower of another god (little "g") for the last 2,000 years. However, there are still many today who reject Jesus Christ, but it isn't because the Holy Bible is unclear. It means absolutely nothing what some so-called Bible scholars believe or don't believe. I know many Doctors of Theology who are lost and on their way to hell.

The only way to dismiss the Holy Trinity is to dismiss the entire Holy Bible. Otherwise, the Holy Trinity is simply another absolute fact of the Holy Bible. THE THREE ARE ONE is more than sufficient if someone doesn't like the word "Trinity". Any other teaching is false, blasphemy, and the lies of man without regard for the Holy Bible. That's really how simple it boils down.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ephesians 6:10  Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

 

GW - This is a Christian forum.  On a Christian forum, we worship Jesus Christ our Lord God.  That's what 'Christian' means.
Please think before you post...
I'm sure there may be other forums where the majority may agree with you.  Perhaps the new 'One World Religion' that lowers Jesus to the level of budah or mohammed. But this is a Christian forum and you bring an unacceptable, abhorrent argument.  Christ cannot be Christ unless He is God.  For a Christian, this is fact that cannot to be argued.

Amen! JudgeNot!!

Bob
James 1:17  Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Amen, brothers. Jesus Christ is in fact God and the Bible does teach us of the trinity.

1Jo 5:7  For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

WOWIES...Ekkk...???...I just wanted to see how everyone on here would explain the trinity. Yet, when challenged by me most of you either took the high road out by letting someone else speak, or just didn't explain it. I do know I'm not going to judge anyone, yet you judge me and don't know me. Just suppose I wasn't a Christian and this was how you dealt with me. By telling me I'm stupid and leave. I know Jesus taught us to love our neighbor. Sorry if I upset everyone. I just wanted everyone's thoughts...:'( To those of you who explained it, I thank you, and to those of you who wouldn't explain or just got upset...I'll pray for you. I'm new here and thought everyone here was Christian, but not one person was willing to be loving towards me.

Trinity to me is:

All of the religions of the world focus on what man can do to make amends for his own shortcomings. This is called work. This is man's effort to reach God. Christianity is the opposite of religion. It is a relationship with God. In Christianity, God, because of His love for us, came to us in the virgin birth of Jesus.

In the beginning of the Bible we are told how God created the world, how He created mankind in His own image. This is the image/ability of mankind to think, reason, understand, and have emotions. Yes, the world is created by God. It is impossible for something to come from nothing and it is even more impossible for life to come from non-life. The Bible tells us that mankind was created for Fellowship with God, to have a relationship with God in the Image that God created us.

As we all know, Adam and Eve disobeyed God and sinned. Sin separated now sinful mankind from the Holy God. The Earth is a fallen place where sin is being lived out in disobedience, sickness and death, all at the displeasure of God. Heaven is where God's will is being obeyed and Heaven is out of the presence of disobedience, sickness, sin and death.

This is where Jesus comes in. Jesus being God, He created us, yet man's sin has separated us from God. In time, God took on the form of a man (became a physical man). In His body Jesus/God gave Himself and died on the cross, dying in the physical so we can now have a Spiritual relationship with God. Three days later Jesus rose from death (showed Himself to be Alive). Jesus is now Alive and in a Spiritual body. The Bible tells us that our physical eyes cannot see the Spirit/Heavenly realm, just as we cannot see radio waves though they exist.

Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world." John 18:36 Jesus is referring to His kingdom where man is reunited with God in the Holy Spirit.

A Christian is a person who acknowledges their own human sinful nature and accepts the Love of God to die on a cross for us. Being God He then Resurrected from death and currently is reuniting us into a living Spiritual Life with Himself/God.

God Bless You All!!!

Godwarrior,

This is a critical issue, and that's why it is covered in such detail on Christians Unite.

Now, more than ever, the devil is a roaring lion, seeking those he can devour. There is an ever growing number of false religions trying to lead people to any Jesus other than God. The fastest growing false religion is Islam. There, Jesus is just a man or prophet. The devil loves this teaching.

Another false cult teaches that Jesus was created and originated as a brother angel of Lucifer. Again, the devil loves this teaching. There are false cults teaching all kinds of things about Jesus that the devil loves. I could give you all kinds of examples, and there are more to choose from every day. I'll just mention a few:

Jesus was just a man and was glorified into a God. We can also be glorified into a God.

Note: I can barely stand to mention this one. Jesus was an agent of the devil and a type of the anti-Christ, an impostor.

In fact, I can barely stand to mention any of these. Jesus was a prophet of Allah and lesser in importance to Mohammad.

There are a huge variety of cults and false religions that really represent the devil. They have all kinds of clever and devious ways to draw people away from the only truth that can save them. Why? - Jesus Christ - GOD manifest in the flesh, dying on the Cross for us is the devil's worst nightmare.

When JESUS CHRIST - THE CHRIST - THE LORD OF LORDS - THE KING OF KINGS - ALMIGHTY GOD gets you and possesses you, the devil has lost the battle of eternity. No power in the universe can pluck you from HIS MIGHTY HAND! JESUS paid it all for me - I believe it, and I'm a possession of HIS. Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour, and the Holy Spirit lives in my heart. In fact, my heart is sealed by the Holy Spirit, setting me apart as a possession of JESUS forever. No power can break the seal of the Holy Spirit, and I am delivered - SAVED FOR ETERNITY! I live and walk in THE SPIRIT!, and I give thanks that JESUS loved me so much that HE gave HIS life for me on the cross. HE arose from the dead and is my LIVING LORD AND SAVIOUR forever!

Teaching you anything else is the opposite of loving and kindness. Your eternity is at stake. Giving you the Gospel of God's Grace is the most loving and kind thing that a Christian can do for any man or woman. Anything less would be cruel and hateful.


Love In Christ,
Tom

Ephesians 6:10  Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

Thank you blackeyedpeas!!! Sorry if I may have gotten you upset or offended. It's just that the heading does say under it defend your faith or ask questions, so that's what I was doing. I appreciate that you went into details and all that lot. I hope you understand we are on the same page. I just like to find out people's ideas, beliefs, and interpetations. Especially since there are many different denominations of Christians. God bless you tons and tons!!!

GodWarrior,

I'm not upset at all. I love to share the GOOD NEWS of the Gospel of God's Grace. I pray that God will allow me to share it every day I have left in this short life.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 100:5  For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations.

I found an interesting passage regarding this I had never noticed before.

Note who is speaking from the start...

Isa 48:12  Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
Isa 48:13  Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
Isa 48:14  All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The LORD hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans.
Isa 48:15  I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.
Isa 48:16  Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
Isa 48:17  Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.


Absolutely no question Who is speaking, Who He says He is, Who sent Him, and what He says He has done.  Praise His Holy name!  What an awesome God we serve!!!

Grace and Peace!

Awesome insight there 2T.  Didn't notice that before.  Thanks!

Acts 7:59
59. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Neither Luke or Stephen seemed to be confused.



John 20:27-28
27. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.[/u]

Thomas didn’t seem to be confused

Agape

Bairn

Brother? Warrior:
Your denominational affiliations are evident. Your bible interpretations are sadly amiss.

You wrote:

Why do even those who believe in the concept of the Holy Spirit as a third person of a supposedly triune Godhead, along with God the Father and Jesus the Son, find it so difficult to explain?

Because the Bible does not teach it! One cannot prove something from the Bible that is not biblical. The Bible is our only reliable source of divine revelation and truth, and the Trinity concept simply is not part of God's revelation to humankind.

The Holy Spirit, rather than a distinct person, is described in the Bible as being God's divine power.

Your claims are bold and outrageous i.e. “One cannot prove something from the Bible that is not biblical……. The Holy Spirit, rather than a distinct person, is described in the Bible as being God's divine power.”
You need to change bibles or read one.

Here is a small study, full of proof that the bible does teach the distinct personhood of The Holy Spirit.

2 Cor 3:17
Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, {there} is liberty.
(NAS)

the Lord is the Spirit the Lord is the Spirit the Lord is the Spirit the Lord is the Spirit.

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. (KJV)

I wonder why Jesus used a personal pronoun seven times in one sentence to refer to the “divine power” as you call it? Just loose talk?


Rom 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (KJV)

How many “spirits” do you suppose Paul figured we were to host?


Eph 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. (KJV)

Impersonal forces do not experience being grieved.

John 14:16-20
16. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17. Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, (that’s Jesus speaking of Himself in the present tense) and shall be in you.  (That’s Jesus speaking in the future tense…referring to Pentecost and thereafter)18. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.19. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20. At that day (Pentecost) ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.(KJV)

Here are some more scriptures regarding the triune nature of God.


Gen 1:1
In the beginning God (Elohiym…plural) created the heaven and the earth.

Plurality is established immediately.

Gen 1:26
And God (Elohiym…plural)   said, Let us (plural) make man in our image (singular), after our likeness (singular): and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

This plurality has a singular image.


Col 1:12-17
12. Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14. In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15. Who (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, (the firstborn of every creature:
16. For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.



Col 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Godhead:
2320  theotes-deity, the state of being God, Godhead (Thayer’s Lexicon)

Just because you can’t reconcile plain scripture with your intellect or your group’s aberrant theology does not alter the clear teaching and foundational truth of actual Christian faith.
I don’t know you or bare you any ill will, but your theology does not square with clear bible teaching and your bold statements about what the bible does and does not teach are uninformed and poorly taken.

What do you do with Isa 9:6?


Isa 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (KJV)

Bairn

GodWarrior, i think you will find that, all of us moderators are of a same mind. I would also say 95% of the membership here, is also of the same mind. That is dealing with the trinity.

As BEPs said,
Resting with the lord, Jesus Christ.
Bob

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

AMEN BROTHERS!

I was just thinking about the days we live in. More and more, it appears that the devil is desperate to push forward any doctrine that denies JESUS as being Very God, the Lord of Lords, the King of Kings, our living Lord and Saviour forever.

Cults are springing up around the world with this as their primary objective. God manifest in the flesh as Jesus Christ, Christ crucified on the Cross, and Christ arising from the dead as our Living Lord and Saviour is the devil's worst nightmare. The devil is convincing many that Jesus Christ was just a man, just a prophet, or just anything other than God manifest in the flesh. WHY? - JESUS was the only perfect sacrifice for the sins of mankind, and JESUS is the only way for Salvation. Accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour is VICTORY over the curse of sin and death.

Brothers and Sisters, may God give us the words, wisdom, and strength to keep preaching THE CROSS!


Love In Christ,
Tom

I Corinthians 2:5  That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

mmm... the devil seems to be desperate... it's too bad that hes tricks works sometimes....

Sweden,

I don't think that I've had a chance to welcome you yet, so WELCOME TO CHRISITIANS UNITE!

It's true that the devil's tricks work too often, but we can stub his toe and trip him up with God's help.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Philippians 4:7  And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Amen brother :D  I guess some dont understand that God was in Jesus Christ reconciling the world unto himself.

Praise his holy name...

Lets look at it from the Qur'anic point of view, which corresponds with what Jesus
himself said in the Bible. Jesus is mentioned several times in the Qur'an as a "Word from
Allah." In Surah 3:39: Then the angels called to him [Zechariah] while he was standing in
prayer in the chamber (saying): "Allah gives you glad tidings of John [the Baptist]
believing in a Word from Allah [Jesus, son of Mary], noble, keeping away from sexual
relations with women, a prophet, and one of the righteous."
In Surah 3:45: [Remember] when the angels said: "O Mary! Verily Allah gives you the glad
tidings of a Word from Him, his name will be Messiah Jesus, the son of Mary, held in
honor in this world and the Hereafter, and of those who are near to Allah." In both verses,
Jesus is called a "Word from Allah," by which is meant a Word coming from Allah or
belonging to Allah, in correspondence with I Corinthians 3:23: "And ye are Christ's; and
Christ is God's." John 1:1 should also have been written: "... and the Word was God's."
The mistake could have been in the translation from Aramaic to Greek, deliberately or not.
In the Greek language, Theos is God, while Theou means God's (see any Greek dictionary
or Bible, or Muhammad in the Bible by Prof. Abdul Ahad Dawud, former Bishop of
Uramiah, page 16). This difference of only one letter has major consequences.

Why is Jesus called the "Word of God" in both scriptures?

The creation of Jesus in Mary's womb was without sperm, for it was the result of the
decree of Allah: "Be" as mentioned in the Surah 3:47: She [Mary] said; "O, my Lord! How
shall I have a son when no man has touched me?" He said: "So [it will be], for Allah
creates what He will. When He has decreed something, He says to it only 'Be' and it is."

Why?  As a Christian, I could care less about the "Qur'anic point of view".  The "Qur'anic point of view" is a pollutant of Truth.

 Why would any Christian want to look for Truth in a book of lies? Jesus was not simply a prophet or "one of the righteous"
He is God! The Koran is satan's book written about five hundred years ago by a false prophet who claims that an angel visited him while he was going insane in a cave!

The real Word of God was written thousands of years ago, and was in place for the beginnings of our time here. It is infallible and Holy. There is a warning at the end of the book in Revelation. It warns against anyone adding to or taking away from the Holy Scriptures. God’s warning condemns your book. Jesus Himself warned us that many false prophets would come, and lo and behold, they did.

Jesus tells us to love our enemies. Your god tells you to murder all infidels. Why would God want His own creation to be murdered? The True God wants all His creation to receive eternal salvation in a place, which He has prepared for us. All includes every race upon the face of the world, because He created us all. He doesn't want anyone to be murdered because they have not found Him. He wants everyone to freely accept Him and receive His forgiveness and eternal salvation. How can a person come to God if he/she is lying on the ground with his head chopped off?

Islam is a violent Godless religion headed by satan.

Warning -

You have been warned about spreading your false religion here my friend. I did not remove your post, so I could expose it for what it is, but you will not be permitted to post any more of the same.

If you are looking for Truth and eternal salvation by the True God of the universe, then you will find Him here. If you are content to remain blind, and are willing to gamble your eternal soul on your violent false religion, then you'll have to leave.

Moderator

hi, I'm a new member. I live in Singapore.

Here are my views for 'Is Jesus God?' and the 'son of God' thing.

1. Jesus is God. The scriptures says it.

2. The 'only begotten Son of God' - The word 'Son' used here in the original language means that the earthly Jesus thinks, behaves like God the Father Himself.

It's like how Paul described Timothy as 'his son', although he was not born from his own loins. But Timothy thinks like Paul, work like Paul, behaves like Paul, he resembles so much like Paul, that Paul calls him 'son'.

So when God says Jesus 'is My only begotten Son', it means that Jesus is the only person alive on this earth that totally resembles God Himself. He is exactly like God. When you see Him, it's seeing God. It's because He is the only one that's perfect, and without sin.

Welcome to C.U. my friend.

Great first post.

Jesus was the only begotten son because He was Gods only actual son not a spiritually adopted son as was Timothy to Paul.

Mat 1:18  Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

 


He is exactly like God because he is God come to us in the flesh.

Mat 1:23  Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1Ti 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

I've just got to say I ran across a website that was pretty much the exact same arguements that are presented here. It was based primarily on twisting scripture to the point that it was unrecognizable.Jesus did claim to be God and he did back up his claim with much proof. However if we look at it logicly,he couldn't have the entire population at the time running around proclaiming him to be God ,because he had a job to do.Had the Jewish leaders of the time believed him God there is no way he would have been crucified, no way he could have fullfiled the scriptures,no way he could have been God. But since he was crucified , was resurected, then he sent out the disciples to proclaim the truth,before being taken back to heaven to reclaim his throne. It all makes perfect sense when you look at it reasonably

hi pastor rogers,
Maybe I wasn't clear enough. Let me extract this from my book.

In biblical language, to be a son of someone or something is to have the character of that someone or something.
Eg. Jn 17:12 (son of perdition); Eph 2:2-3 (sons of disobedience).

Now the term 'son of God' is also used of angels (Job 1:6) and men (Lk 3:38, Rom 8:14). Reason? We are all made in God's image!

In the case of Jesus Christ, He fully manifested the character of Father God.

Regarding son-ship, Jesus is also called:
'The only begotten Son'. Jn 3:16

God has many sons but there is only one He begot. There is no other 'son' that qualifies to be the Savior... So, Jesus is unique!

But what does 'beget' mean?
To beget does not mean 'to give biryh' or 'to create'. That is why in the Nicene Creed, it's clearly stated concerning Christ: 'eternally begotten of the Father... begotten, not made, one in being with the Father..'

Therefore, to be begotten = to be specially related. A begotten son is a specially related son, not a specially created son.

Since I have my book here... let me share this too.

The bible records other witnesses claiming that they too agree that Jesus Christ is God.

1. God the Father Himself.
Matt 3:17 'This is my beloved Son..'
Jn 5:17-18 ' God was His Father, making Himself equal with God'

2. The friends of Jesus.
a) John the Baptist - Jn 1:34
b) Nathanael - Jn 1:49
c) Peter - Jn 1:49
d) John - 1 Jn 5:20
e) Stephen - Acts 7:59

3. The enemies of Jesus.
a)The centurion... the soldier who hung Him on the cross. - Mk 15:39
b) Satan himself! Mt 4:3, Mt 4:6
c) Demons Mk 1:24

I agree totally with this statement. Jesus had the characteristics of God because He is God come to us in the flesh.

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2  The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.




Again I have no problems with this statement. Even a man can have many sons. Ones that he has raised and nurtured and will follow after him, perhaps even taking on his characteristics. But the ones that are his begotten sons are those that are blood of his blood.

Begotten = only born, that is, sole: - only (begotten, child). to procreate as the father : SIRE, to beget or bring forth offspring


Joh 1:12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

It is a difficult thing for some to understand because they attempt to use human reasoning, how can Jesus be both the son of God and still be the one and only God at the same time. All things are possible with God, many of these things are beyond the understanding of human reasoning.

1Ti 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Manifest means to show himself to us. So God showed himself to us in the flesh.

Jesus Christ is both the son of God and is the one and only God.

1Jo 5:7  For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jo 5:8  And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Yeah.. There are things that our limited mind can never understand. Even when Mary conceived Jesus by the Holy Spirit, the angels in the heavens don't know how to describe it and they called it 'the thing'. Ha ha...

As much as different bible scholars has different views, most of the church today will still believe that Jesus is God, together with Father God and Holy Spirit.

This is an extract of the nicene creed. It was written in the early church years, ard AD 300++. After much intensive debates and disscussion by the council at that time, they finally decided on this:

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
  the only Son of God,
  eternally begotten of the Father,
  God from God, Light from Light,
  true God from true God,
  begotten, not made,
  of one Being with the Father.
  Through him all things were made.
  For us and for our salvation
    he came down from heaven:
  by the power of the Holy Spirit
    he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
    and was made man.
  For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
    he suffered death and was buried.
    On the third day he rose again
      in accordance with the Scriptures;
    he ascended into heaven
      and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
  He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
    and his kingdom will have no end.

Jury, there's no debating the truth. Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit.

1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Resting in the arms, of Jesus.
Bob

1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

Brothers and Sisters,

I was just reflecting on this thread and giving thanks that we don't place our faith in JUST A MAN. All of us know about the failures, sins, and hypocrisy of man.

We place our faith in JESUS CHRIST, Very God, the CREATOR, and HE never fails or sins. HE freely took our place on the Cross and suffered the punishment that we deserve. JESUS did die on that Cross, but HE arose from the dead on the third day and is our LIVING Lord and Saviour forever. Very GOD humbled Himself and took the form of a man and died on the Cross to rescue us from the curse of sin and death. There is no greater LOVE than that. I'm not worthy at all for HIS Love, but HIS Blood on the Cross made me worthy to pray for forgiveness of sins and ask HIM to be the LORD over my life. NOW, I belong to JESUS! Every time I think about that, it makes me want to sing:

Thank you LORD for saving my soul,
Thank you LORD for making me whole.

We can't expect to understand even the beginning of HIS MIGHT AND MAJESTY with our little human brains. I give thanks that GOD made Salvation easy enough for a child to understand. In fact, HE wants us to come to him with a childlike faith. Those of us who belong to JESUS are the richest people on this earth.

There are many people on this earth who believe in a Jesus that was just a man, just a prophet, just a teacher, or just anything other than very GOD. Many so-called religions would fit into this category, one being Islam. These people are LOST, and every Christian should feel a heavy burden to share the GOOD NEWS with them and pray for them.

Love in Christ,
Tom

Romans 10:16-17 NASB  However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 NASB  Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

Ephesians 2:19-22 NASB  So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

Amen!

Hey, want to discuss on the Fatherhood of God? I believe it'll bring us closer to Him.

as i believe jesus was the son of god who god put on earth  to one day sacrifice his own son so that we all mankind can be saved and have the chance to go to heaven when we repent our sins and ask for forgiveness.

jesus who loved and served his father and loved all of us did what he was ment to do.

this is what i was taught in the baptist ways. i was baptized luthren when i was real young but now i am married into a family who is baptist and i started believing in their ways since i never went to luthren churches very much.


god loved us so much that instead of sacrificing animals all the time he chose to bring a son on earth so people wouldn't have to sacrifice animals so much so jesus came into the world so we could all be saved and no more animals would have to be killed all the time.


thats what i was taught. ;)

Hi again Jessica,

You are right that Jesus was the son of God. He is also very God. Mainline Baptist do believe in the Trinity, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, these three are one.

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Please take the time to read the rest of this thread and the one that goes with it, part one. There are many wonderful verses given that show this truth to us.

PRAISE THE LORD PEOPLE OF GOD!

      JUST WANTED TO REPLY QUICKLY TO SIXPACK, AND I TRUELY HOPE HE READS THIS OR THAT IT IS AT LEAST POSTED.
      SIXPACK, YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT JESUS CHRIST IS GOD. I HAVE A BIT OF NEWS THAT CAN BE BAD NEWS FOR YOU IF YOU DON'T CATCH ON QUICK. I WILL TRY TO KEEP THIS AS SIMPLE AS POSSIBLE.....I'M AFRAID I MAY HAVE DONE TO MUCH TYPING ALREADY!
      THE BAD NEWS IS THAT THE MESSAGE OF THE CROSS IS FOOLISHNESS TO THOSE WHO ARE NONE OF HIS! I KNOW YOU HAVE DONE GREAT STUDIES AND YOU CAN BREAK DOWN THE LANGUAGE OF THE TIMES AND ETC., BUT I NEED TO WARN YOU, SO COULD THE PHARISEES AND SADUCEES. JESUS TOLD THEM THAT THERE FATHER IS THE DEVIL, OTHERWISE THEY WOULDN'T HAVE TROUBLE BELIEVEING HIM....WHOOO!
       YOU'VE GOT ALL THESE STUDIES, BUT DO YOU HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT? GOD'S BUISNESS IS KEPT FROM THOSE WHO ARE NONE OF HIS, THATS WHY HE SPOKE IN PARABLES.
        WE REALLY MUST GET BACK TO THE BASICS....IN ALL YOUR GETTING, YOU KNOW, THE STUDYING...LEARNING...FIGURING...LOGIC, IN ALL THY GETTING, GET UNDERSTANDING.
        TO ALL THE PEOPLE WHO MAY BE READING THIS AND GOING BACK IN FORTH IN YOUR UNDERSTANDING, FIRST LET ME WARN YOU TO NOT BE BLOWN AWAY BY EVERY WIND OF DOCTRINE, SEEK FOR YOURSELF. SECONDLY, LET ME GIVE YOU TO KNOW, THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE IN THIS WORLD WHO ARE TREMENDOUSLY INTELLIGENT. THEY ARE TREMENDOUS WITH NUMBERS, THEY ARE TREMENDOUS WITH SCIENCES, THEY CAN CALCULATE, THEY CAN RATIONALIZE WITH THE BEST OF THEM, THE ARE TREMENDOUS IN ACADEMICS....BUT THEY ARE SO STUPID THAT THEY CAN'T SEE GOD WHEN HE'S MOVING. (THIS STATEMENT IS NOT TO SIXPACK, JUST TO READERS) IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE GOD WITHOUT FAITH. AND WITHOUT FAITH THERE IS A LEVEL OF UNDERSTANDING THAT ONE WILL NOT HAVE. SOME THINGS IN THE BIBLE ARE NOT GOING TO MAKE SENSE TO THE CARNAL MIND, BUT THAN SOME THINGS ARE GOING TO MAKE SENSE TO THE "RELIGIOUS" MIND. IT REQUJIRES FAITH. I KNOW SOME WON'T UNDERSTAND HOW 1+1+1=1, BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS FOR THIS LEVEL OF LEARNING, YOU OUGHT NOT LEAN TO YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING. YOUR NOT GOING TO ALWAYS UNDERSTAND....HENCE THE REASON FOR FAITH! THE GREAT THING ABOUT THE TRUTH IS, ITS TRUE RATHER YOU BELIVE IT OR NOT. JUST HAVE FAITH AND THE LORD WILL EITHER SHOW YOU HIS TRUTHS, OR HE WILL SEND ONE WITH REVELATION TO GIVE IT TO YOU. A SOLID PIECE OF ICE IF IT IS MELTED TURNS TO WATER, AND IF IT IS HEATED TURNS TO GAS. 1. ICE + 1. WATER + 1. GAS = 1. THE SAME CUBE OF ICE MADE WATER AND GAS....MAKES MORE SENSE NOW? ONE GOD, THREE DIFFERENT MANISFESTATIONS. BE CAREFUL THAT THE MESSAGE OF THE CROSS DOESN'T BECOME FOOLISHNESS FOR YOU. YOU MIGHT SLIP UP AND BECOME NONE OF HIS.  BE BLESSED IN THE LORD AND FIND YOUR WAY TO JESUS...IT WOULD BE HORRIBLE TO DO ALL THIS STUDYING, SPEAK OF ALL THESE THINGS THAT MAKE SENSE, DIE AND GO TO HELL. IF EVERYTHING WAS GOING TO MAKE SENSE TO OUR FINITE MINDS, THERE WOULD BE NO NEED FOR FAITH....SO SIXPACK, BACK TO THE BASICS, HAVE YOU DEVELOPED IN FAITH? I SEE THAT YOU HAVE FAITH IN YOUR UNDERSTANDING AND LOGIC, BUT DO YOU HAVE FAITH IN JESUS....BECAUSE RATHER YOU AGREE OR NOT HE IS GOD...BUT HE ONLY BECOMES YOUR GOD WHEN YOU PUT FAITH TO IT. P.S. THE JEWS DIDN'T BELIEVE HIM EITHER. AND IN PROVING THERE POINT, THEY ONLY CAUSED HIM TO FULFILL THE PROPHECY. BELIEVE OR DON'T BELIEVE, BUT BE WARNED JUDGEMENT IS COMING AND YOU, MY FRIEND, HAVE NO EXCUSE BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED....YOU BETTER TELL HIM YES.

I HAVE A QUICK QUESTION. HOW CAN SO MANY PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT GOD, JESUS, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT IS ONE (AND YOU ARE RIGHT) AND STILL BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY? COULD ONE OF YOU BRILLIANT FOLKS ANSWER THAT FOR ME. THE TRINITY IS THE BELIEF THAT GOD IS THREE, HENCE THE WORD "TRI"NITY. SOME OF US ARE SAYING THE RIGHT STUFF AND JUST A TAD BIT OFF IN WHAT WE'RE ACTUALLY CONFESSING.

Hello GKB,

I see that you are new, so WELCOME!!


The doctrine of the HOLY TRINITY is completely Biblical, and I think it is exactly what you just said. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are ONE ALMIGHTY GOD. They have been ONE for eternity past and will be ONE for eternity future. I think that people may express the same thing with various words because this is so difficult for men to understand. Men aren't supposed to understand the full MIGHT, POWER, AND MAJESTY OF ALMIGHTY GOD!

When Christians talk about the Holy Trinity, they are talking about ONE ALMIGHTY GOD. Maybe the term "Holy Trinity" is also confusing, but it's really just a short and reverent way of saying: God the Father is Almighty God - God the Son is Almighty God - God the Holy Spirit is Almighty God - AND THE THREE ARE ONE. I really don't know of an easier way to explain this.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 NASB  Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

Don't know if this will help, but try to look at it from this perspective.

A man is one, but he can be a son, father, and grandfather.  The three have different roles, but the three are one and/in the same.

There are three persons in one God, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. :P  

Hi GKB,

Welcome to the forum.

Many people struggle with this concept. The scripture tells us clearly that they are three. Jesus tells us this Himself in Mat 28:19. Yet we also know that they are one as we see in many different verses (1John 5:7 for one) for there is one and only one God. We also see that Jesus is God come to us in the flesh (John 1).

We know that God does not lie so we know by faith that these things are true.

Yes, Jesus is God. Please read Jn.1:1 And the Word was with
God and the Word was God.
1Jn.5:20  and we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. Isa.7:14, Mt.1:23 Jn.20:28 Rom.9:5 Col.2:9 Heb. 1:8 !Jn.5:11

God bless,
bluelake

Jesus is God!   Not that it hasn't been proven with scripture in this thread already, but there is simply no way to get around the following verses for those who still doubt it.





Isa 41:4  Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

There should be no question who is speaking in this Old Testament passage here.   Jehovah Himself.






Now, Notice the following carefully....

Rev 1:8  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.  


And once again.....


Rev 22:13  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.  

Should still be no disagreement that this is GOD speaking in these passages, echoing Isaiah 41:4.






Now, let me direct your attention back to the first chapter of Revelation.


Rev 1:17  And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18  I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.  

How does one explain, when God was ever dead and lived again, except He be Christ Jesus?   Jesus IS God!  And He died for you and me and is Alive for evermore!!!!


Give Him Pious Praise and Glory today, and Receive Him as your Lord and Saviour TODAY!...


He Liveth and was DEAD, AND NOW LIVES FOREVERMORE!!!!!!

Hi DreamWeaver:

I trust you mean by the above statement that Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is also God. That would correspond to the fact that there are three distinct Persons in the Godhead -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. One God. Three Persons.

Many stumble at this profound truth, but it is inescapable to those who approach the Holy Bible to be taught of God, not to sit in judgment over matters which are really beyond human comprehension.

To those who question the Deity of Christ, let me remind them that the apostle who doubted Christ's resurrection -- "Doubting" Thomas -- is the one who fell down and worshipped Jesus by declaring with his mouth "My Lord, and my God!".

Per Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:23 another one of Christ Jesus' Titles is "Immanuel", which means 'with us is God' or 'God with us'. Even the Title 'Jesus' refers to Jehovah (Jesus is the Greek version name for the Hebrew name Joshua. And the name Joshua in Hebrew means 'Jehovah is salvation'). Those who refuse to believe don't know it, but even by saying our Lord's Name 'Jesus', or 'Iesous', or 'Yashua', one is saying 'Jehovah is Salvation'!

Those behind the idea of denying that Jesus Christ is God are the same sort that denied Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ at His first coming and after He rose from the dead (see Matthew 28:11-15).

The workers of iniquity behind the secret socieites also deny that Jesus is God, because they can't establish their one-world religion to include all faiths if the one Faith (Christianity) is presented as being above all others. And they use many deceptions in trying to humanize our Lord Jesus away from being God with us, Emmanuel. They will lie and say 'you' can become your very own 'Christ', or you can become 'a Christ', etc. That's the same old lie Satan told Eve in the Garden about becoming your own god. They will lie and say Jesus had a flesh wife and flesh children (Da Vinci Code junk). They will lie and say there are many paths to God, not just through Christ Jesus.

Jude 1:10-16
10   But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11   Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12   These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13   Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
14   And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints,
15   To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
16   These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
(KJV)

Thats what I said.......... ???

Sometimes I may not speak as elequantly as other members, but I have stated that many times.

Um, duh! Father, Son, Holy Spirit--all One. All God. Plain and simple.

Are you mormon by chance?

It's okay to ask questions but, after reading your answers, they border (very close--you foot is edging over the line) to blasphemy.

I don't question. God is not of logic, but mystical in all His Infinite beauty and Holiness. I have faith. There is nothing to question, once you have faith.

God Bless!
Kelly

If you are reading the Bible like it should be read you would know that He is God.
Don't take a text out of context then it will become a proof text
(you only using one scripture to prove your point)

The whole agree with itself.

Did Jesus Ever Say He was God?

The earliest followers of Jesus all seemed pretty convinced that Jesus was fully God in human form. Paul said, "He is the image of the invisible God...in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell." John said that Jesus created the world. Peter said, "every one who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

But what did Jesus say about himself? Did he ever identify himself as God? According to the Bible...absolutely! Below are some of his statements made while on earth, in their context.

Is Jesus God? How he said he was God:

The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple. (John 8:57-59)

"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)

And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me does not believe in Me, but in Him who sent Me. And he who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me. I have come as light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness." (John 12:44-46)

And so when He had washed their feet, and taken His garments, and reclined at the table again, He said to them, "Do you know what I have done to you? You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for I am. If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet." (John 13:12-14)

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (John 14:6-9)

Is Jesus God? How he described himself:

Jesus therefore said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." They said therefore to Him, "Lord, evermore give us this bread." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." (John 6:32-35)

Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life." The Pharisees therefore said to Him, "You are bearing witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true." Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true; for I know where I came from, and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from, or where I am going." (John 8:12-14)

Jesus therefore said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal, and kill, and destroy; I came that they might have life, and might have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." (John 10:7-11)

Martha therefore said to Jesus, "Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You." Jesus said to her, "Your brother shall rise again." Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world." (John 11:21-27)

Is Jesus God? What he said he was sent here to do:

But Jesus called them to Himself, and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. It is not so among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." (Matthew 20:25-28)

For He was teaching His disciples and telling them, "The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later." But they did not understand this statement, and they were afraid to ask Him. (Mark 9:31-32)

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:16-18)

"All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:37-40)

Concerning our triune God, if you read Isaiah 9:6 you see a prophesy of the coming Messiah in which Isaiah identifies this (at that time) unborn human child to be God Almighty, the Everlasting Father and a number of other Hebrew names for God only ever ascibed to God Most High, the Creator and Father.  Yet at the same time, Isaiah also identifies this (at that time) unborn child as Messiah and Prince of Peace.  Here:

For unto us a Child is born,
      Unto us a Son is given;
      And the government will be upon His shoulder.
      And His name will be called
      Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
      Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
                                                   Isaiah 9:6, NKJV

In this Messianic prophesy, we see what we call "the Trinity" clearly exposed.  The prophesy says plainly that the Everlasting Father, the Messiah and Counselor are all one.

Now the Trinity is not called one of the "mysteries of God" without cause.  Try to explain it clearly and you are immediately confronted with an impossibility -- our finite human minds simply cannot frame the entirety of God's identity into a concise, cognitive package.  Many very good analogies have been used to try:  steam, water and ice all being water; time space and energy all requiring each other to exist, but all being separate, etc.

Ultimately though, these analogies are lacking.  Even when we consider ourselves created in God's own image having mind, body and spirit and simply point out that God can separate Himself into these three distinct parts, we are still left with little more than an understanding of how it could work, but no clearly defined picture of how it does work.

This reality cries out loudly as solid evidence that God is real, the Bible is true and that Christianity is a religious concept revealed by God, rather than invented by men.  After all, how could men invent a God that we still today cannot fully understand?

In short, Jesus is God, the Trinity -- while being a word not actually found in Scripture is a good name for the doctrine describing our triune God and the fact that it is this triune God we follow is in itself strong evidence that we follow the ONLY true God, because He is the only God in all history that we cannot define in human terms.

i am so confused.

"forgive them father for they do not know what they do" Is he talking to Himself?

Jesus was born a man from the virgin Mary. Joseph was not his father so who was? I thought it was GOD.

GOD came in Human Form as Jesus? Did Jesus not Pray? If he did who was he praying to?

Who Is Elohim? Who Is Jahoavah? Please help!!

Jesus is the son of God. Jesus is very God. This is the mystery of the Trinity that so many have difficulty grasping. It is difficult for them because it is above the full undersanding of man. How can one person also be three people. As we are told in scriptures God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all distinct individual personalities yet they are all one and the same.

That would make sence if God came as man...a Real man with no powers.

but he did not come as a real man. no man can heal the blind or walk on water. He had GOD in HIm or he was GOD.

Yet the devil try's to tempt him in the desert when he was fasting to not only eat but to commit suicide. So Satan was Trying to Tempt his Own Creator GOD? Did Satan not know Jesus was GOD?

It seems more Like Jesus Is man: son of GOD but Has GOD on his side performing mirricals in the Name of GOD..Just as he did for Moses. Then Jesus is Killed. GOD can Not Die. God is eternal. Jesus died, and was brought back to life by GOD. This is how i always interpited the Bible. Dont it make more sence this way?

In mans logic perhaps it does. The thing that most people do not understand and cannot understand is that Jesus was both fully man and fully God. He was and is the same. God came to us in the flesh. He was born of Mary. Yet He was and is still God. When satan tempted Him he was tempting the flesh, the man, Jesus. Jesus could not be tempted because He was perfect, above temptation. As we know the only one that is perfect is God. Jesus was perfect. If He had not been He would not have been the perfect sacrifice on the cross for us.

If you have not done so yet I would suggest that you read the rest of this thread as well as part one. There are many posts in these two threads that point out the answers to your questions in the scriptures. If you still have questions please feel free to ask more.

Actually, the Apostles did greater miracles than Jesus did  ;)   Jesus preformed all His miracles by FAITH...trusting in the Father as did the Apostles. 


Satan knew full well who Christ was.  See Mat 8:29 where the demons say...." art thou come hither to torment us before the time?"   Did these demons know Jesus would be the source of their future torment, but Satan did not?   Satan was was merely tempting Jesus humanity...knowing that Jesus had to live and die as Man.   Jesus did everything He did in full obediance to the father....trusting and believe for things in faith.   He had to live as a man in order to reconcile man to God.   100% man 100% God.




Scripture has an answer for this.


Rev 1:8  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Compare....

Isa 44:6  Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.



Now go back and read....

Rev 1:11   Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:[....]      Again..Gods declaration!

And finally....

Rev 1:17  And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.  


When did God ever die, UNLESS, Jesus is God - The First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega?   Once  you begin to see Christ as fully Human, AND fully God, these verses make sense along with verses like....


Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.



Yes the triune nature is quite a mystery, however, its no mystery that Jesus Himself IS God!   Scripture is crystal clear on this.    The Gospel of John speaks more of the Deity of Christ than the other Gospel's.   It was the final Gospel to be written, largely to address this very problem in the day....people doubting that Jesus was in Fact God.   Start reading there and look for phrases that Jesus uses, trying to see where He is speaking from His Deity versus His Humanity.  It makes for a fascinating read!    :)


Blessings!

Many posters here seem to "get it" others are having trouble with the trinity. Perhaps this will help them understand it better.
Let's think of the trinity in terms of a Storm. God the Father would be Thunder.  Jesus would be Lightning. The Holy Spirit would be the wind. Each one is a seperate entity, but all have the full power of the Storm and are inseperatable.  :)

Another good example is the 3 leaf clover. 3 separate leaves attached as one.

WOW....I love that analogy!!!   (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v507/2ndtimothy/smilies/thumb.gif)

That is a wonderful way of putting it David James.

yes Jesus is God.was and is Forever.He is the GLory of Jehova God!  God Himself.ALLELUJAH!!!

Hi def,

Welcome to Christians Unite.

Are you saying that Father and Son are the same? If so, then why have a trinity?  ??? Why didn't Jesus ask us to pray: "Jesus Christ who art in heaven?"

That is the mystery of the Trinity. They are all separate distinct personifications and yet they are one.

Mar 12:32  And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:


Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

well i guess i just want to say my peace.OK pastor roger there it goes ....GEN,1:26and God said"Let us make man in our image,after our likeness;THE SPEAKER AND THE ONES SPOKEN TO compound UNITY...GOD IS Plural noun in created a singular verb"together they do the stuff.they are always together"when they do something it is a singular verb" there is one God in Three the trinity...take the example of " ONE DAY" morning `noonèvening`=ONE DAY  "24 hours in a day"3-8hour=24 hours=ONE DAY compound unity..but in the plan of salvation the one called the Son had to leave his Deity to become a human"man"son of man..and Mercy mercy there was a separation at the cross of the trinity for Jesus died for me...imust go now i said enough

Pastor  Rogers It was a mistake  for the letters not being capital..so sorry if it happen again please excuse me i only have one good hand.OK

Hi def,

There are three in one God. The son did not leave His deity. God maintained His deity but also became man. God as Jesus Christ was both fully man and fully God. If He had given up His deity He would not have been the perfect sacrifice for our sins.

 

yes yes yes  ..the perfect Lamb the God Lamb..WOW..thank you Pastor Rogers I sure will meditate tonight on that with gratitude... thank you Pastor Rogers and have a good night..your sister Def..love in Jesus.

" One God: Three Entities " - Page 1


VW NOTE:

The following is taken from the "Israel My Glory" magazine published by
Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry. It addresses a topic, written by an
Israeli pastor, that most Jews have this crucial doctrine messed up.
They proclaim the "shema", but don't believe in the "Trinity". They seem
to think that any sort of Trinity would also indicate more-than-one God.
Many of them also conclude that the doctrine of the Trinity originates
from Rome. I'm sure many of you have been confronted by these arguments,
as well, like I have. I've always wondered 'why' Jews refuse God's
Trinity. As it turns out, it has to do with a famous rabbi some
centuries ago who -changed- one of the Hebrew words of Scripture. As you
read, perhaps this will provide another example of why we spend so much
time with "what does the Word -say-?"

They rejected Jesus who proclaimed, "I and the Father are one" (Jn10:30)
In speaking of the continual worsenning of English translations, we have
observed that, in something like "the message", they now have a
translation that says, directly, what they believe.  When the rabbi
changed that one word, he provided the 'authentication' they were
looking for, to legitimize their rejection of "that man".

We have addressed this topic in the past from the various Scripture
passages where God presents Himself as Trinity, as well as the 'plural'
forms of words. This article also addresses those, but also gives the
foundation of the Hebrew words and their meanings; and in Part2, the
word the rabbi changed.



One God, Three Entities (Part 1)
by Meno Kalisher
(Israel My Glory January/February, 2007 pg38)

The prayer of the Shema ("Hear, 0 Israel," Dt6:4) has always been the
fundamental declaration of faith of the Jewish people and the State of
Israel. In one short verse, Moses presented a great truth about the
Godhead as a whole. This Scripture is inscribed on parchment scrolls and
placed in mezuzot (wooden or metal cases) that are fixed onto the
doorposts of every home in Israel. It is a verse that calls the people
of Israel to serve and worship one God:

Hear 0 Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one (Dt6:4, Masoretic
text).

The Hebrew Bible actually reads, "Shema Yisrael, Yehovah [YHVH]
Eloheinu, Yehovah [YHVH] Ehad" Jewish people, however, do not say the
word Yehovah for fear of taking the Lord's name in vain. Instead, they
substitute the words Adonai, Hashem ("the Name"), Elohim, or Adoshem.
The spoken Shema is usually, "Shema Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai
Ehad"

The Hebrew words Adonai ("Lord") and Eloheinu ("our God") use plural
forms of the word God. The word Eloheinu is a combination of Elohim
shelanu, meaning "our God." The Word Elohim is the plural form of the
word Elohah.

Why does the Lord present Himself as plural? And why, after repeating
the word God three times, does Deuteronomy 6:4 end with the word one?

To understand the verse better requires examining the meaning of the
Hebrew word ehad ("one") in the Old Testament.

==========================See Page 2

" One God: Three Entities " - Page 2


EXAMPLES of EHAD

(1) "So the evening and the morning were the first day" (Gen1:5)
The Hebrew actually says "one" (ehad) day rather than "the first" day.
Morning and evening are two nouns that follow each other and, together,
constitute one day. Ehad is the union of morning and evening.

(2) "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to
his wife, and they shall become one [ehad] flesh" (2:24).
A man and a woman are two separate people whose joining together creates
one flesh.

(3) "The whole [ehad] assembly together was forty-two thousand three
hundred and sixty" (Ezra2:64; cf. Neh7:66).
The "whole" (chad), meaning 42,360 individuals gathered together,
constituted one assembly.

The word ehad does not necessarily refer to a single, individual item.
It also may mean a combination of items that constitutes a complete
whole. The Hebrew language uses a different word to describe an
undivided unity. That word is yahid.


PLURAL WORDS for GOD

To whom was the Lord speaking in Genesis 1:26?
Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the
air, and over the cattle, over all the carth and over every creeping
thing that creeps on the earth."

He was not speaking to human beings because they were not yet created.
Neither did He consult with the angels, because angels were not active
partners in creation. The Old Testament states clearly that God alone
created the world:

You alone are the LORD, You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens,
with all their host, the earth and everything on it, the seas and all
that is in them, and You preserve them all. The host of heaven worships
You (Neh9:6).

When God interrogated Job, He asked, "Where were you ... when the
morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"
(Job38:4,7). God was telling Job that when He created the universe, the
angels shouted to Him for joy.

The New Testament strongly confirms that God alone is the Creator:
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on
earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or
principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for
Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist
(Col1:16-17),

Therefore, in Genesis 1:26 the Lord was speaking to an entity or
entities equal to Himself in image and in power to create.

King Solomon, the wisest man who ever lived, summarized the essentials
of human life by saying, "Remember now your Creator in the days of your
youth, before the difficult days come, and the years draw near when you
say, 'I have no pleasure in them'" (Ecc12:1).

The word Creator appears in Hebrew in the plural form, indicating a
plurality of Creators. Since the Creator is God, there must be a
plurality of entities in the one true God.

Plural forms of words referring to God also appear in Isaiah 54:5 ("For
your Maker is your husband, the LORD of hosts is His name") and Psalm
149:2 ("Let Israel rejoice in their Maker"). In both cases, the word
Maker is plural, as is the word husband.

Thus the word ehad describes a wholeness that consists of several
entities. The Shema of Deuteronomy 6:4 says that God is one whole who
consists of several entities and that the people of Israel must worship
this wholeness.

======================See Page 3

" One God: Three Entities " - Page 3


One God, Three Entities (Part 2)
(Israel My Glory March/April, 2007 pg38)

In his 13 basic principles, renowned Rabbi Moshe Ben Maimon (1135-1205),
also known as Maimonides and the great Rambam, replaced the Hebrew word
ehad ("one") with yahid ("only one") to describe God's nature. Ehad
often denotes a compound unity, whereas yahid does not.

Although the idea of yahid stands in contrast to the Old Testament,
rabbinical Judaism embraced it and argues that God is an undivided
wholeness. However, the Bible provides many examples that clearly
testify to a plurality in the one God. God is one, but not one entity.
There is a single Godhead, one God to whom there is no equal; but that
one God exists in a plurality of entities.

The Hebrew Scriptures contain verses that refer to each of the entities
in the Godhead and clearly indicate their number.


THE SPIRIT of GOD

And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters (Gen1:2).
The Spirit of God existed from the beginning. He took part in the
creation. But the Spirit was never created; therefore He is equal to
God. The Spirit of God is an independent, vibrant entity, not merely a
trait or dormant, sense- less power. The Spirit of God can be grieved;
therefore He is a person in Himself.

There are further examples of the Spirit's existence as an individual
entity:

The Spirit of God has made me. Do not cast me away from Your presence,
and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. Where can I go from Your
Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? The Spirit of the LORD
shall rest upon Him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit
Of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the
LORD. Who has directed the Spirit Of the LORD, or as His counselor has
taught Him? Job33:4; Ps51:11; 139:7; Isa11:2; 40:13).

But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit. ... "Where is He who put
His Holy Spirit within them...? " As a beast goes down into the valley,
and the Spirit of the LORD causes him to rest, so You lead Your people,
to make Yourself a glorious name (63:10-11,14).

And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of
Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on
Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his
only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn (Zech12:10).


SEEN and UNSEEN

Clearly, at least two entities compose the Godhead.
(1) An entity no one can see face to face and live: "But He said, 'You
cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live"' (Ex33:20).
God was speaking to Moses and promised to bless and accompany him
throughout the Israelites' journey in the desert. Moses wanted to see
the face of the Lord who was speaking to him, but was refused. Finally
Moses was allowed to see the back of the One with whom he spoke; but he
was not allowed to see His face.

If he had seen the entity's face, he would have died instantly.
Therefore, Moses clearly spoke with a God entity whose face he was
forbidden to see.

(2) An entity man could see face to face: "So the LORD spoke to Moses
face to face, as a man speaks to his friend" (Ex33:11).
The same chapter describes a special encounter between God and Moses. To
emphasize the physical closeness between them, the verse says the
encounter took place "face to face," as a man speaks to a friend. This
meeting was not a vision, dream, or voice heard from heaven, but a
face-to-face dialogue.

===================See Page 4

" One God: Three Entities " - Page 4

According to Jewish rabbinical opinion, the Lord spoke to Moses through
a reflected image. However, this view is inconsistent with God's Word.
If the Lord had spoken to Moses through a reflection, the verse would
have said so instead of saying "face to face, as a man speaks to his
friend."

Using a literal, grammatical interpretation of the text, it becomes
evident that verses 11 and 20 speak of two separate entities, both of
which are referred to as "LORD."

Another example of a visible entity within the Godhead is found in
Exodus 24:9-11. Moses, Aaron, Aaron's sons Nadab and Abihu, and 70
elders of Israel ascended Mount Sinai and "saw the God of Israel. And
there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone....
But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So
they saw God, and they ate and drank" (vv.10-11).


ISAIAH'S REVELATION

How many entities make up the Godhead? Isaiah the prophet solved the
mystery and cast a light on the relationship between the persons who
compose the living God.

In Isaiah 44:6, God says, "I am the First, and I am the Last." In Isaiah
48, the Lord describes Himself as the One who founded the earth and made
the heavens; and He declares that all are ready to do His will.

The Lord continues to speak and says that the kingdoms of those days
acted under His sovereignty. Then He says the following:

Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the
beginning, from the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD
[Adonai YHVH] and His Spirit have sent me (v.16).

The Hebrew text says, "has sent me." The verse combines the names Adonai
Yehovah [YHVH] into one entity, using the singular verb form "has sent"
rather than "have sent."

Thus the speaker is God (entity one). And He was sent by the Lord GOD
(entity two) and His Spirit (entity three). Isaiah teaches that the
oneness of the Godhead is comprised of three entities: The Spirit of God
and two others who are called "Lord."

Therefore, the meaning of the Lord's words in the Shema of Deuteronomy
6:4 becomes obvious: "Hear, 0 Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is
one." The names of the Lord appear three times in this verse, which ends
with the word ehad - "one" - to teach us that one Godhead is composed of
three entities.

Meno Kalisher is a native of Jerusalem and pastor of the Assembly House
of Redemption in Jerusalem.

____________________

From A Voice In The Wilderness
Free E-Mail Subscriptions: http://www.a-voice.org/mail

*** MORSELS ***


Re: One God: three Persons

"Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the
beginning. From the time it existed, I was there; and now the Lord
Jehovah, and His Spirit, has sent Me." (Is48:16)

"For My Angel will go before you and bring you in to the...." land of
promise (Ex23:23)

"Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant, that all our
fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all
were immersed into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the
same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they
drank out of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was
Christ." (1Co10:1-4)

"Go therefore and instruct all the nations, immersing them into the name
of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," (Mt28:19)

"And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into
your hearts, crying out, Abba, Father!" (Ga4:6)

"I and the Father are One." (Jn10:30)

"And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and
a voice came from Heaven which said, You are My beloved Son; in You I am
well pleased." (Lk3:22)

"For there are three that bear witness in Heaven: the Father, the Word,
and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." (1Jn5:7)

"Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your
presence?" (Ps139:7)

____________________

From A Voice In The Wilderness
Free E-Mail Subscriptions: http://www.a-voice.org/mail

Amen! That is indeed a wonderful study.

I am SPEECHLESS I cried while i was reading all of this Truth and I am still crying..I really don't see things the same lately..my question why me..Hosanna!!

Hello Def,

Sister, all of us should wonder "Why me?" The answer will be that GOD loved us enough to send HIS Only Begotten Son to die for us on the CROSS. It's awesome to think about all of the beautiful Truths in GOD'S WORD. Our CREATOR knew us before the foundation of the world, and HE knitted us together in the womb. JESUS CHRIST made us fit for an eternal inheritance, and the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD lives in the temple of our hearts. We are just passing through this short life on earth to our real HOME in HEAVEN. It's beautiful to know that our citizenship is in HEAVEN, and we are no longer of this world.

What awaits is a mansion that our FATHER has prepared for us, a glorified body without any pain or illness, and and eternity of Joy with JESUS CHRIST.


Love In Christ,
Tom

Matthew 22:36-40  NASB  "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' "This is the great and foremost commandment. "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

thank you Tom, my brother ,now it is sunday evening  i just spoke with David my heart is heavy.good night in Jesus BEP xx

The following verses are often usd to show that Jesus is indeed God, but perhaps a different perspective will help to drive that truth home even further.

Jhn 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:2  The same was in the beginning with God.

Jhn 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jhn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I guess most of us have at one time or another wondered about what the "word" truely is right?
The origional Greek for "word" is logos.
Logos is literally the power and wisdom of God.
Is there corroborating scriptures which prove this? Yes...

1Cr 1:24  But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

So...The logos (Word) was God - not "a" god, as some false teachings would have us believe, but God.

The logos is the power and wisdom of God

All things were created for and by the logos.

The logos became flesh, as Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is the logos of God.

Jesus Christ is the power and wisdom of God in the flesh.

Jesus Christ is God!

I know it's simplistic, but it does help...I hope!

John

Amen Bronzesnake!

Hello Brother John, it's great to hear from you, and your post hits the nail square on the head. It's a beautiful and wonderful Bible fact that JESUS CHRIST was and is VERY GOD - ALMIGHTY GOD - THE CREATOR!

It becomes even more wonderful and beautiful to know that JESUS CHRIST died on the cross for us to take our punishment in HIS Own Body and rescue us from the curse of sin and death. The grave couldn't hold him, and HE LIVES today and forever! HE is ONE with GOD THE FATHER AND GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT - ALMIGHTY GOD - with no beginning and no end.

Brother John, I give thanks every day that I'm a purchased possession of JESUS CHRIST, and I belong to HIM. I'll never be worthy of accepting GOD'S Grace, Love, and Perfect GIFT - JESUS CHRIST - my LORD and SAVIOUR! So, I'll just give thanks and reflect often on the beautiful Promises of GOD.

Love In Christ,
Tom


1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 NASB
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:50-58 NASB
Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O  DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?" The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.

God bless your heart brother Tom.
It really has been a journey for me my dear friend.
I have been there and back over the past year, but I am so much more grateful for everything our sweet Jesus has done in my life, and it feels wonderful to be here again.
Feels like a true home coming!

John

Jesus Himself, told us He was God...

The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple. (John 8:57-59)

"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)

And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me does not believe in Me, but in Him who sent Me. And he who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me. I have come as light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness." (John 12:44-46)

And so when He had washed their feet, and taken His garments, and reclined at the table again, He said to them, "Do you know what I have done to you? You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for I am. If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet." (John 13:12-14)

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (John 14:6-9)

Jesus therefore said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." They said therefore to Him, "Lord, evermore give us this bread." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." (John 6:32-35)

Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life." The Pharisees therefore said to Him, "You are bearing witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true." Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true; for I know where I came from, and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from, or where I am going." (John 8:12-14)

Jesus therefore said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal, and kill, and destroy; I came that they might have life, and might have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." (John 10:7-11)

Martha therefore said to Jesus, "Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You." Jesus said to her, "Your brother shall rise again." Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world." (John 11:21-27)


His mission...

But Jesus called them to Himself, and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. It is not so among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." (Matthew 20:25-28)

For He was teaching His disciples and telling them, "The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later." But they did not understand this statement, and they were afraid to ask Him. (Mark 9:31-32)

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:16-18)

"All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:37-40)


John

AMEN BROTHER JOHN!

I've been out with illness and a crashed computer. In case you're wondering, I crashed the computer when I should have been in bed. I'm up and going again just in time to leave and go see my kids and grandkids. I won't be running any races, but I might be able to catch the 7 month old. He's the one I want to catch anyway.   ;)

I'll be back in about a week if we don't get snowed in. I'm looking forward to reading more of your posts and conversing with you. I promise to have some good stories to tell about the grandkids.

In the meantime:


Love In Christ,
Tom

P.S. If the RAPTURE happens before I get back, I'll see you in the clouds.

 

Hi sixpack434,

This is an excellent Bible study. I have to add my voice to the others, Jesus Christ (Yeshua Ha Mashciach) is God.

In Exodus 3:14 God is revealing Himself to mankind. "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM; and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I  AM hath sent me unto you."

Then in John 8:58 Jesus says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was I AM." Here Jesus reveals Himself as God. The statement not only claims existence before Abraham, but equality with the "I AM" of Exod. 3:14. The Jews around Him clearly understood His meaning and picked up stones to kill Him for blaspheming.
Again in Mark 14:62 - "And Jesus said, I AM: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven."

In John 18:6 - "As soon then as He had said unto them, I AM (he), they went backward, and fell to the ground." (!)

In The Revelation of Jesus Christ, 2:8 - "And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive:"  - these words were spoken from the mouth of the risen LORD Jesus Christ, a witness to His true identity as the Everlasting God.

In Isaiah 42:8 - "I AM the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images." The Hebrew word LORD here is the tetragramatton YHWH - the ineffable name of God, which in Hebrew is also translated Who was, and Who is, and Who is to come.

Isaiah 44:6 - "Thus saith the LORD (YHWH) the King of Israel, and his redeemed the LORD of hosts; I AM the first, and I AM the last; and beside me there is no God." This 'first and the last' here in Hebrew is the Aleph and the Tav, in Greek it's the 'Alpha and Omega', both are the first and last letters of their respective alphabets.

Isaiah 41:4 - "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD (YHWH), the first, and with the last: I AM he." Seven times in Scripture the Creator uses the words 'first and last' to convey the idea that He is the Eternal God, beyond time altoghether. (See also, Isaiah 48:12; Rev. 1:11; 1:17; 2:8; and 22:13)

Revelation 1:17 - "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; the I AM the first and the last:"

Revelation 1:8, Jesus gives us the self-revelation of who He is, "I AM the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending saith the LORD, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
Jesus took the Glory of God in John 17:5 - "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with tine own self with the glory which I had WITH thee before the world was." God said He would not share His glory with another. Jesus SHARES glory with the Father. Jesus is LORD.

Exodus 20:1-4 - "And God spake all these words, saying, (2) I AM the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bandage. (3) Thou shalt have NO OTHER GODS before me. (4) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graen image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:"
The Old Testament (Torah) forbids giving worship to anyone other than God. Jesus accepted worship

Matthew 8:2 - "And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying LORD, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean."
Matthew 14:33 - "Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God."
Matthew 14:25 - "Then came she and worshipped him, saying, LORD, help me."
Matthew 20:20 - "Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him."

Mark 5:6 - "But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him."

The disciples attributed titles to Jesus the Old Testament reserved for God, such as 'the first and last' (Rev. 1:17; 2:8; 22:13), the true light (John 1:9), "the rock" or "stone" (ICorinthians 10:4; IPeter 2:6-8; Psalms 18:2; 95:1), "the bridegroom" (Eph 5:28-33; Rev. 21:2), the Chief Shepherd (IPeter 5:4), and "the Great Shepherd (Hebrews 13:20).

They attributed to Jesus the Divine activities of creating (John 1:3: Psalms 130:4; Jeremiah 31:34), and Judging (John 5:27).

They used titles of diety for Jesus. Thomas declared, "My LORD and my God" (John 20:28). Paul calls Jesus "the one in whom the fullness of deity dwells bodily." (Col. 2:9). In Titus, Jesus is called, "our Great God and Savior" (2:13). The writer of Hebrews says of Him, "Thy throne, O God, is forever" (Heb. 1:3) Paul says that, before Christ existed as a human being, He existed as God (Phil. 2:5-8).

Hebrews 1:3 says that Christ reflects God's glory, bears the stamp of His nature, and upholds the universe.

The prologue to John's gospel also minces no words stating "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word (Jesus) was God." (John 1:1)

Jesus claimed equality with God in other ways. He claimed the perogatives of God. He claimed to be judge of all (Matthew 25:31-46; John 5:27-30), but Joel quoted YHWH as saying, "for ther I will sit to judge all the nations on every side" (Joel 3:12). He said to a paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven" (Mark 2:5). The scribes correctly responded, "who can forgive sins but God alone?" (vs. 7).

Jesus claimed the power to raise and judge the dead, a power which only God possessed (John 5:21-29). But the Old Testament clearly taught that only God was the giver of life (Deut 32:39; I Sam 2:6) and the one to raise the dead (Psalms 71:20).

Isaiah called "the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace."!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hebrews 13:8 - "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."!!
Who was, and Who is, and Who is to come!!!

Please, get to know Him in the fulness of His Deity!

I believe He was the Son of God also,but let me ask a question to thoe that think He is God.When He was praying,to whom was He praying...Himself ?



                                     Yours in Yeshua,
                                     Curious

He is the Son of God and He is also very God as the many verses already given here has shown to be true. Even Jesus said that He was God.

Hello Curious,

One has to remember that ALMIGHTY GOD is referred to as the GODHEAD. The GODHEAD is a HOLY TRINITY:  GOD THE FATHER, GOD THE SON, AND GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT - YET - the three ARE ONE! Your question is already answered several different ways in this thread. There are many things about ALMIGHTY GOD that are hard for mankind to understand, and this is rightfully so since HE is the CREATOR - All Powerful - No Beginning - No Ending - Sees All - Knows All from Eternity Past. The HOLY THREE are UNIQUE, but they are also ONE! There are also several analogies in this thread to help you understand this, but the Bible presents overwhelming proof that this is a Bible Fact.

Love In Christ,
Tom

That's very true,but I've seen that when alot say that(my opinion)that they seem to be saying JUST Yeshua is God,not even talking about the Father & the Holy Spirit.
Like you or I. We are body,soul & spirit. We are not three people,but three personages,but one person. God is three personages,but one God. I could go on & on,but this is enough for now.

I noticed that I forgot something RIGHT after I posted.



                                 Yours in Yeshua,
                                 Curious

Hello Curious,

You just made a very important point that's completely true, and this is also hard for many people to understand.

It is blasphemy for any person to deny:

GOD THE FATHER
GOD THE SON
GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT

They are unique, BUT ONE.  THEY are plural, but they are also ONE. The most frequently used terms that accurately describe ALMIGHTY GOD is either to name them one at a time or:

THE HOLY GODHEAD.

THE HOLY TRINITY.

THE TRIUNE GOD.

Each unique HOLY PERSONAGE performs various actions in the Bible, now, and forever. As examples:  THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD lives in the hearts of believers. JESUS CHRIST is the MEDIATOR between GOD and man. JESUS CHRIST will be the JUDGE at the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT. The examples could go on and on, but one last one to think about is that ALL THREE took part in CREATION. In conclusion, All THREE HOLY PERSONAGES OF THE GODHEAD are ALMIGHTY GOD, and it is blasphemy to deny any of the HOLY TRINITY.

Love In Christ,
Tom

 

And of one Jesus, which was dead, whom Paul affirmed to be alive. ACTS 25:19

A new military governor had come to Caesarea. The people knew well enough that it was important for all those who had anything to do, especially with the government, to make the acquaintance of this man and try to gain his favor. For in all such cases the character and good will of the ruler was a matter of consequence. Among the persons who hurried to Caesarea to meet the governor Festus was a native ruler, a young man named Herod Agrippa.

He was a great grandson of the celebrated Herod the Great, and was at that time allowed by the Romans to be a king, subject to them, over the northeastern portion of his ancestor's dominions. Agrippa came and spent a number of days at Caesarea. He had been educated in Rome, but as there were no newspapers, there would be much information which Agrippa could obtain from the governor respecting the state of society and the gossip of the capital.

On the other hand there would much that Agrippa could tell the governor about the curious people he had come to rule over, a people well known over the world for their excitability and extraordinary stubbornness, a people hard to govern and hard to understand. And so the days went on with varied talk and counsel and feasts and baths and theater and gladiators, and all the apparatus of Roman luxury which Herod the Great had gathered in his capital city of Caesarea.

After Agrippa had been there many days, we are told it occurred to Festus - possibly he was coming to be a little at a loss for new subjects of conversation - to mention to the young king a singular prisoner whom his predecessor Felix had left there in prison, a man named Paul, whom he found to be exceedingly unpopular with the Jewish rulers though he could not exactly understand why. For when the Jewish rulers were summoned before him according to the Roman custom, he found they had no accusation to make against the man, no civil offense - but they had certain questions of their own superstition and about one Jesus who was dead, whom Paul affirmed to be alive. One Jesus. How little did the Roman governor dream that as a fly preserved in amber he was going to be remembered in the world's history simply because of his connections with Paul the prisoner and with this Jesus!

Things have changed since then. The long progress of what we call the Christian centuries has brought its changes and we live in what calls itself a Christian land after Jesus Christ. And yet, O my friends, it is very sorrowful to think how many there are, even in this so called Christian land, who seem to care very little more about Jesus Christ than poor Festus did. Busy, some of them are with philosophical thought, and some with schemes of statesmanship, and some with the charms of literature, busy with the harassing pursuits of life, with its perplexing cares, with its bewildering pleasures, busy with everything else and hardly ever a thought at all of Jesus. What I wish to say is simply this: there is no one who has a right to think lightly of Jesus, and I wish to offer some reasons why that is so.
___________________________

In the first place, Jesus is the most important personage in human history. The obscure and insignificant one, of whom Festus spoke so carelessly, has founded this world's most wonderful empire. The carpenter of Nazareth is a king of men. You will remember what Napoleon said, and those words have often been repeated, as he spoke to one of his friends during life, "Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, and myself founded empires, but they were force, upheld by force, and when the force was withdrawn, how soon they all mouldered away. Jesus Christ has founded an empire of love, and it lives through all the ages, and nothing seems able to destroy it." Yea, from him went forth the influences which have given to what we call Christian civilization, its highest dignity, its truest power. Much we have derived, no doubt, from Grecian literature and art, and Roman law, and something from our Gothic ancestors, but the chief power in Christian civilization comes from that Jesus.

Yea, the men nowadays who fancy they can do without Christianity, who prate that they have risen above Christianity to a higher plane than it has reached, seem not to know that all the elevated ethical conceptions and sentiments of which they boast and which they suppose make them independent are but the result of this same Christianity which they disdain. They are like a silly schoolboy who has but half learned a few of the teacher's lessons, and then fancies he knows more than the teacher and can henceforth do without him. Yea, the thoughtful world is coming to see somewhat more clearly that Jesus is the Center of the world's history. Bossuet made that remark, and it has often been repeated: that the cross of Jesus Christ is the center of the world's history. All lines of preceding events seem to converge to that cross, and from it diverge all the great events of the world's subsequent history.

It is a kindred thought to say that Jesus is the center of the Scriptures. Everything in the Old Testament points forward to him: everything in the New Testament proceeds forth from him. You cannot understand the history of the Old Testament, if you think of it merely as a history of Israel. It is a history of redemption, that is its characteristic idea, and in Jesus Christ it has found its consummation, its climax, its completeness. Jesus is for us indeed the pledge of the divine authority of the Old Testament. Does a man say, "How do you know that what we call the Old Testament is from God?" I answer, the Jews were just as familiar in our Lord's time, as we are, with the phrase "The Scriptures." "The Scriptures," used so often in the Old Testament, and we know from Jewish chronicles that what they meant by Scripture was the Hebrew books which we call the Old Testament, and this selfsame scripture Jesus declares is from God and cannot be broken. I stand hearing his testimony to its authority and am content.

Men rise up in every successive age and say science has at last discovered - they seem to imagine that science will never make any discoveries after their age - science has at last discovered certain facts which are incompatible with the Old Testament. Jesus declares the Scriptures cannot be broken, and I believe that whenever physical science has truly interpreted the works of God, which is only partially done as yet as every thoughtful man knows, and philological science has rightly interpreted the Word of God, that people who are prepared for it will see that there is no conflict. In the meantime the conflict we hear so much about grows out of the hasty conclusions of those who but partially understand God's workings, and still more partially understand God's providence. Jesus says that the Scripture is God's Word and cannot be broken and I am content. I am dependent upon no man s knowledge. Let knowledge come and welcome, only when it comes to be knowledge then we will turn to God's Word and study the passages and we will see about the so-called conflict.
______________________________

So trusting in Jesus, we make sure concerning the miracles he wrought. People say, and it is not an unnatural question, how do you know but that the persons who witnessed the miracles of Christ were deluded, not to say deceivers? Well, much might be said about their character, and about the fact that both friend and foe united in bearing witness to these things, but apart from all these Jesus himself declared, over and again, that he did work these miracles by the favor of God, and who is going to say that he was deluded and who is going to say that he was a deceiver? His character bears testimony to the reality of his miracles, and his character and his miracles like two sides of an arch holding each other up, support the whole fabric of Christianity. Against his character, all human opposition breaks and is shattered like surf against a rock. The few men that have ventured to try to say something against the character of Jesus, their tongues have not been palsied but their words have been manifestly weak and vain.

It is not strange that the history of Jesus himself, the center of Scripture, has come to be the great subject of inquiry among the friends and foes of the Christian religion. Through our time you have all noticed how many books have been written in the last generation on the life of Christ - the like of it never seen before - in Germany and France, in England and America. There is a work about to be published now in this city about the life of Christ, more elaborate in some respects than any before published. And why so much of this? Because the world is beginning to feel that Jesus is the center of Scripture; that Christianity is in the world and the character and the work of Jesus himself. The men who question its power and who deny its authority are coming to see that Christianity is in the world though, and has been a mighty power in the world, and though often grievously perverted and misdirected, is on the whole a beneficent and blessed power, and they have got to account for it. That means study the history of Jesus.

Yea, Jesus is the whole fact. The proud young French king said, you remember, when someone spoke of the State, "I am the State," but, not with arrogance, not with egotism, in simplicity and truth, Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth and the life." Jesus is the gospel. The gospel is not a creed simply, is not a society of priests, the gospel comes to us embodied in a person. Jesus is himself the gospel; receiving him we receive the power of God unto salvation. Have we a right to think lightly of Jesus who is the most important personage of the world's history, who is the center of the Scriptures?

And thirdly, Jesus is a being unique in the universe. God the pure spirit, is only God, and man, strange being that he is, is only man; but Jesus - the Scriptures require us to believe it - Jesus is both, truly God and truly man. I do not wonder that persons shrink away from that fact, it is stupendous, it is inconceivable in one sense, yet it is the plain teaching of God's Word. He is not simply a man, he has risen from us to divinity. He is not simply God taking upon him some outward semblance of humanity. He is truly God and truly man - truly each. His divinity: why friends, it lies plain on the surface of God's Word. Plain people, unsophisticated, who just read it right along and take it as it is, cannot well help seeing that. I pray you remember, God's word was not written for learned divines, for skillful commentators, for skeptical inquirers, God's word was written for the people It is a handbook for practical guidance.
_____________________________

Therefore, whatever lies plain on the surface of God's Word, not in one phrase alone but in many places, that is exceedingly apt to be what is meant. Bible learning is all a good thing in its place, but after all if we want to get practical truth for our own guidance out of God's Word we shall be most likely to get its meaning more clearly and truly if we take the plain meaning of the passage that lies on the surface to any unsophisticated observer. You might as well pluck the throbbing heart out of this bosom and call what is left a living man as to take the divinity of Jesus Christ out of this book and call the rest God's Word. It is set forth in a thousand ways in all parts of the Scriptures and if anyone should ask me to mention three or four passages why here they are: "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us - full of grace and truth." And when Thomas after his long doubting was convinced, he cried, "My Lord and my God." If he to whom he said it had been a mere man, he would have shrunk from such an idolatrous utterance, but he commended him for saying it.

On the other hand the Scriptures as plainly set forth Jesus as having a human nature. The Christian world has long been half oblivious of the humanity of Christ. It is only until now that men are beginning to realize the humanity of him who is also divine - the carpenter of Nazareth who worked with hard hands over homely toil. A great many of those who try to lead the masses offer speculative delusions and talk against Christ and Christianity. Why don't they tell the people that the founder of Christianity was in the truest sense a working man and the friend of the poor? His humanity made it possible that he should be really tempted. Why could not any human nature be tempted? Our first parents in their Eden, in their purity, were tempted and fell. The high angels were tempted and fell out of heaven. The humanity of Christ could not morally be overcome with sin due to the influence of the Holy Ghost, yet the humanity of Christ could be tempted, and the temptation could be a reality. As man he could take Our place before God, he could suffer in our stead, he could die and rise again for us, and his divinity gave to that suffering, atoning death and resurrection a dignity and significance.

My friends, these souls of ours crave a perfect example. We need imperfect examples such as the Scriptures furnish and life furnishes us every day, of every grade and condition, but then our souls crave an idea of perfection, and there it is, a perfect example, at the summit of them all - a perfect example in the humanity of our Lord and Saviour. As man he gives assurance of his sympathy with his having been tempted only once like as we are, yet without sin. Oh, how wonderful is the fact! I often pause to dwell on it, that not only do tempted ones in this life bow safe around the glorious throne, but one who was tempted here sits upon the throne, and we know that he can sympathize with our infirmities, with our temptations, with our trials, and being unique, in all, exists the God-man. When he stood upon the Mount of Olives do you not remember how he said: "All authority and power in heaven and earth is given unto me," and "Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world"? Who over all the nations, who over all ages, has a right to think lightly of Jesus? In the fourth place, Jesus has wrought a work that is unparalleled in its nature and in its importance. It is the most wonderful that has ever occurred in the universe. It is not creation, it is redemption. It is reconciliation between the holy ruler of the universe and the beings who have broken his law. A work so wonderful it is that the Scriptures give us an intimation that the most exalted creatures of God that do exist, look down amid all the world's wonders and wonder most at this. Nay, with the strange perversity which we human beings show about many things, there are many persons who cannot believe it because it is so wonderful. It seems impossible that the maker and ruler of the universe should have chosen such a stage to do these things. The theater is too small; the stage is too insignificant for such a drama as the atonement, they say. Well, nearly all the most important things in this world have had comparatively an unimportant theater. Daniel Webster had evidently thought of this when he wrote these words to be placed on his tombstone: "Philosophical argument, especially that drawn from the vestures of the material universe, and the apparent insignificance of our world have sometimes shaken my reason for the faith that is in me, but my heart has always assured and reassured me that the mission of Jesus Christ is a divine reality."
___________________________

There is no need to have our faith shaken when we remember what I have said; the most insignificant spot of earth may be the scene of earth's greatest events. And this little earth came to be, as the Scriptures declare, the scene of the mightiest event of the universe, the reconciliation of God's creatures to himself.

Now once more, Jesus sustains, and must sustain, a personal relation to each one of us. I do not mean as a matter of history - there is a sense of course in which every person has a relation to each of us - but I mean as the loving Saviour. He must by the very necessity of things sustain a personal relation to each of us. We can as well shake off our own being as to prevent the necessity of that personal relation to him. We can determine its character, we can be his friends, by the grace of God, otherwise we are, we cannot but be his enemies. There are those who think they can live neutral with reference to Christianity, who think they can treat Christian mysteries, and people in general, with a certain respect, and be kind and courteous, and play neutral. But O my friends, it is not my saying, merely Jesus himself has said "he that is not with me is against me." "He that gathereth not with me, scattereth." There is no neutrality. We must be his friends or we are his foes, delude ourselves as we may.

The most important question of life is, "What is a man's relationship to Jesus?" And that turns upon another question, "What does a man think and feel about himself?" Jesus came not to call righteous men, but sinners to repentance. If I am a sinner, if I have been trying hard to do right, and have learned more and more how hard it is for me to do right, if my own conscience condemns, therefore God who is greater than my heart must condemn me. If I am troubled how my guilt shall be removed, and my sinfulness, then Jesus is for me, and then I am for Jesus. But if I feel that I am a good kind of person, fond of comparing myself with my fellow men, looking upon my faults as reasonable defects, then no wonder I get so fanciful theories about Jesus. Then I am not in the position from which he came to relieve me.

O my friends, what is your relation to Jesus? It is the question of all questions: what is your relation to Jesus? It is a question which you should settle in your honest heart, and the decision you reach you ought to proclaim to your fellow men: for he said: "Whosoever shall confess, I will myself confess, and whosoever shall deny me" - and to refuse to confess him is to deny him - "him will I also deny before the angels which are in heaven." O my friends, what is your personal relation to Jesus? It is a question which you can postpone now, if you will, but it will come back again and again. It is a question which will face you. You will face it in the day for which all other days were made; in the day when before the Saviour, you shall stand, and he your judge. In that day every knee shall bow, and shall confess, willing or unwilling, that Jesus is Christ his Lord, to God the Father. O my friends, prepare for that day by turning to Christ now! What is your personal relationship to Jesus? Confess him now!

1:  Romans 3:10 NASB  as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

2:  Romans 3:23  NASB  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

3:  Romans 5:12  NASB  Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

4:  Romans 6:23  NASB  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

5:  Romans 1:18  NASB  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

6:  Romans 3:20  NASB  because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

7:  Romans 3:27  NASB  Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

8:  Romans 5:8-9  NASB  But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

9:  Romans 2:4  NASB  Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

10:  Romans 3:22  NASB  even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

11:  Romans 3:28  NASB  For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

12:  Romans 10:9  NASB  that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

13:  Romans 4:21  NASB  and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.

14:  Romans 4:24 NASB  but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,

15:  Romans 5:1  NASB  Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

16:  Romans 10:10  NASB  for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

17:  Romans 10:13  NASB  for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Hello Suzi,

I've done almost nothing with videos, and I recently found out about GodTube. As far as I know, you just copy and paste the listed link into a message. I wouldn't have a clue about embedding. The last link I did involved our users going to GodTube with the link to view the video. This is the only way that I know how to do it. Our users simply hit their browser back button to come back to Christians Unite after viewing the video.

Im sorry it has taken me so long to get back online...  I have really missed this place!  I have thought about it and I think the easiest way for me to share this video is to just give the link to the GodTube page.. please anyone who has a few moments watch this.  I think it is such a good representation of how limitless our Saviour is..  If you watch it please let me know what you think!! 

the video is here:
http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=992690f20c2d3b370ec7

Hello Suzi,

I'm an absolute beginner with video, and I'm on a Linux machine. The link worked perfectly. If I can do it - anyone can do it. The video was great, and I say AMEN! So that you will know, clicking the link automatically started everything and there were no problems. Thanks for posting this link. I'm sure that all Christians will enjoy it.

Love In Christ,
Tom

   

 ;DI am so glad you enjoyed it as much as I did,  I was truly uplifted by it and Im glad that the link worked ok so it can be shared!

1 yolk + 1 white + 1 shell = 1 egg
1 President + 1 Vice President + 1 Congress + 1 House of Representatives + 1 Supreme Court + etc... = 1 government
1 father + 1 mother + 3 sons = 1 Ketchum family
1 Father + 1 Son + 1 Holy Spirit = 1 God

It is often difficult for human eyes to see or recognize what God did when He came to earth.  We are often looking through a veil and unless you break yourself before God and ask that it be lifted, you won't see the Truth for what it is.  When the Bible speaks of God, it is speaking of 3 seperate entitities.  This is why you see in the Old Testament phrases such as "let us" and "we" when God refers to Himself.  The "Himself" is a misnomer created by us.  I have trained myself to think of God as a They and it works well for me.  When Jesus prayed, He never prayed to God, but instead to the Father, because He realized that the entire Godhead wasn't present in heaven to pray to.  He even taught us to pray this way... "Our Father...";

You often quote phrases of the bible to prove your point, but anybody can do that.  I can take phrases out of the bible and "prove" that God hates everybody.  You need to read in context of what was being said.  If I were a new Christian and read your hand picked quotes, I could easily be swayed to believe what you believe, but how do you explain the other quotes given by Christians here?  How do you explain John 1:1?  How do you explain John 3:16? 

Hello ketch,

Welcome to Christians Unite forums.



To answer your question you have in the subject line, "How many "Sons" does God have?"

There is only one "begotten Son" of God. All other sons are through adoption "by Jesus Christ to himself". "Himself" is not a misnomer. As you said "When the Bible speaks of God, it is speaking of 3 seperate entitities." yet it tells us very clearly they are also one God. Keep in mind that even Jesus referred to the Father as "himself" yet He also said that He and the Father are one.

Mat 6:4  That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

Hello Ketch22,

WELCOME!


I sincerely hope that you enjoy Christians Unite, and I look forward to having fellowship with you.

One of the reasons why many people don't see or believe in the Holy Trinity is that it doesn't fit their false religion. This is ESPECIALLY so with JESUS CHRIST. So, denial of JESUS CHRIST and the CROSS is denial and rejection of Salvation since JESUS CHRIST is the ONLY WAY to be rescued from the curse of sin and death.

JESUS CHRIST is the devil's worst nightmare. So far, the devil's worst defeat in history was at the CROSS. There is no irony that the devil's final defeat will also be by JESUS CHRIST. As Christians, our greatest thanks is:


Love In Christ,
Tom

Is Jesus God?  YES!

Jesus is the son of God and not God Himself. i believe in the Holy Trinity, God the Father, the son and the holy spirit.

Those that believe in the Holy Trinity also know that Jesus is not only the Son of God but that He is also very God.

1Jn 5:7  For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

If you believe in the Holy Trinity, you are saying:

1 - GOD THE FATHER IS GOD.

2 - GOD THE SON (JESUS CHRIST) IS GOD.

3 - GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD.

4 - YET THE THREE ARE ONE.

CHRISTIANS UNITE FORUM LINKS

Is JESUS CHRIST GOD - Part One
http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=2397.0

Is JESUS CHRIST GOD - Part Two
http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=6495.0

HOLY TRINITY - AMERICAN STANDARD VERSION

John 1:1-5 ASV  1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  2  The same was in the beginning with God.  3  All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.  4  In him was life; and the life was the light of men.  5  And the light shineth in the darkness; and the darkness apprehended it not.


HOLY TRINITY - AMPLIFIED VERSION

John 1:1-5 AMP  1  IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself. [Isa. 9:6.]  2  He was present originally with God.  3  All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being.  4  In Him was Life, and the Life was the Light of men.  5  And the Light shines on in the darkness, for the darkness has never overpowered it [put it out or absorbed it or appropriated it, and is unreceptive to it].


HOLY TRINITY - NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION

John 1:1-5 NIV  1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  2  He was with God in the beginning.  3  Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.  4  In him was life, and that life was the light of men.  5  The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

SEE THE NEXT POSTS

They are not the same.  God is the father, Jesus is the son and the holy spirit is a power that does what God commands kinda like the power of electricity that runs machines. The term trinity is not found in the bible. So lets not add it. God and Jesus are two separate beings that simply are working on the same goal. If me and my daughter were working on a project together well we are still two difffent people trying to accomplish the same goal.

They are the same being. Your logic is very flawed.

Scripture shows that as Jesus is the son OF God and not God himself and that the holy spirit is the spirit OF God and not God himself. I capitalized the word OF for a reason. Anyting that is FROM or OF something cannot be that something else. For example, I come FROM my mother, but I am not my mother. Jesus said, I come out FROM God. I came out FROM the father. Therefore Jesus came from God but is not God himself.

matt 28:19 Going, then, desciples all nations baptizing them into the name of the father, son and holy spirit. well this verse does not say the three form one God. They are all 3 mentioned in one verse and thats it.

1cor 8:6 There is only one God....The father.

1john 5:19 The son can do NOTHING of himself but what he sees the father do.  Now if son can do nothing himself where is the trinity in that?

2john 6:38 For I come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of them that sent me. Now if Jesus was God he would be here diong his own will but he clearly stated he is not....... no trinity

john 4:34 Jesus said my meat is to do the will of him that sent me and to finish his work. Now did Jesus send himself? no God sent him.....So no trinity in that either

john 8:28 Jesus said, I do nothing of myself; but as the father has taught me.  well Jesus does nothing himself but what the father taught him....So no trinity there.

john 12:49  For I have not spoken of myself; but the father which has sent me, He gave me the commandment what I should say and what I should speak.  Now if Jesus was told what to say and speak by the father (GOD) trinity is completely impossible. no trinity there either.

There is so much more to prove they are not the same but im gonna stop here.

Yet there is so much more that proves that they are one and the same just as has been stated over and over again with supporting scripture throughout this thread and part one of the same thread. Even Jesus said that He was God. If we cannot believe Him then how can we believe in the message of Salvation that He teaches us?

Well given all the proof I posted, If you feel it is incorrect then disprove it. I dont know how many times Jesus has to say he is not God. 

Your logic and understanding is that of man and not that which comes from God. There are many terms (words) that are not in the Bible yet the meaning behind those words are clearly there.


Joh 8:24  I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Joh 8:58  Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

The scriptures that you gave are correct but they only give you a portion of the understanding as to who Jesus is.

I will not continue to argue with you on this subject as it is not a debatable subject. Jesus was the son of man, He was the Son of God and He was very God, the second person of the Godhead.

We are told throughout scripture that God created all things we are also told that Jesus created all things. for this scripture and many others that prove that Jesus was also very God look at the rest of this thread and part one. It has already been explained throughout and scripture has been given to substantiate it.

As I said this subject will not be debated here nor will a podium be given to preach anything other than God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are three persons in one.

Moderator

I dont call it arguing but discussing. If your uninterested in discussing it then ok. no worries. I do agree though that the bible is misunderstood. The question is, who is doing the misunderstanding? Anyway, I posted some proof and thats all I needed to do. You have a good day and be safe.

Unfortunately you have posted only have of the proof. Just those portions to substantiate what you wish to believe and not the whole of what Scripture says on it. Call it what you like but when you wish to teach against portions of scripture then you are in fact arguing and you are arguing against God.

Pastor Roger, Im sorry you feel that way. have a nice day and be safe.

Amen Brothers.

  Is Jesus God? = Definitely YES!

Jesus Christ is Our Lord God and Saviour. He created all things according to His purpose.
Even you who are reading this. God created you.  :)





(Modified by moderator to remove link to advertisement.)

I see this is one of your first posts, so WELCOME!


I hope you enjoy Christians Unite, and I look forward to having fellowship with you.

Love In Christ,
Tom

I looked through many of the posts on this. sincereheart was right on with 1st Timothy 3:16. And forgive me if this verse was mentioned, but I did not see it.
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

One of the most difficult things to do, is to try and rationalize God and godliness from a humanistic viewpoint. Have you ever tried ( When I first accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior,
I freaked over this one.) imagining God never have being born? No beginning? To our rationalistic minds, it seems impossible. We got over that though.

Please look to 1st Corinthians 2:10-16, pray to God, in the name of Jesus, for revelation on this matter. Be pure in your intent to find the truth, and you will. Jesus the Christ, is in fact God manifest
in the flesh. (And 1st John 4:7.)

  With love, to all who posted their views.
  1st John 4:19,20

Hello Seasquall,

Sadly, there are are many false religions and cults that try to marginalize Jesus Christ or deny His Absolute Deity. This is much more serious than first glance since Jesus Christ is the only way to Salvation. The devil is busy these days trying to take Glory away from Jesus Christ, but the devil's time is growing short. The devil will have one of his last flings soon and be put in his place by Jesus Christ.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Amen.

I have to say just a couple of things to maybe help any who wonder.  I have recently been discussing this with someone who also believed that the 3 are not one.  Their argument was simple...Jesus said He was the Son of God...He has a Father, and has a God...so Jesus thus cannot also be God.  This is a very weak argument on many levels.

However in order to support their stance they stuck with the verses that clearly stated Jesus has a Father and has a God, and Jesus said He was the Son.  Early on I had pegged the person a Jehovah Witness and it became more clear as the debate went on.  Support came from attempts to "re-translate" the Bible in order to support their means.  A primary example of this is John 1:1 they take the words "Word was God" and translate it to "Word was a god."  He justified this becuase in the original Greek there was no article before 'theos,' so they feel it should be translated as 'a god.'   

Another area of contention that I had gone into is the many times people worship Jesus, this is evident of strangers, on up to the apostles are seen as worshiping Jesus.  This person tried to state that the word should not be translated as worship, but should be obeisance, which is to show deep respect to a person or spirit being.  Bowing is a sign of this respect since people used to bow to their king.

Now some core problems with these two key areas. 

John 1:1.  In other locations even in John such as John 1:6, 12, 13, 18 all use the no definite article and are translated as God and not a god.  It is only in reference to a verse that would directly state that the Word, which was Jesus as explained in verse 14, was God.  So besides translational issues there is another issue...if we are going to say that the Word, which is Jesus, is a god, how do we reconcile the many verses that state that there is only one God?  We cannot without having to change even more of the Bible to fit the view.  So this verse obviously cannot be translated as anything other that 'God' or even 'Divine,' since divine is specific to being God.

On the issue of worship.  People that argue that Jesus is not God have to remove the text that state that people worshiped Jesus.  Cause it would be obvious that if someone were to worship Jesus, then He is either God, or God was about to get real mad.  No they will change the verses that talk about people worshiping Jesus and substitute bowing, or doing obeisance, or something else that does not show worship.  Now the same word is used when talking about God and they leave it at worship, because they will state that when it is done in reference to God it should be worship.  However there is a failure because they do not change in reference to the temptations of Christ, where Satan told Jesus to worship him, nor did they change it when the people went to worship Peter, or when John worshiped the angel.  At these points it is still left as worship and not changed...again only when it is directly related to the diety of Jesus are those verses changed.

There is some logical deductions for you as well to back up the plethora of scripture out there.  you can check my work and I would recommend that you do.

There are many instances in which they translate the word 'theos' to be 'a god' yet in others to be 'God'. Their translation is always inconsistent simply because they refuse to accept the truth.

I came up with an argument to prove Jesus is God.

If a cat and dog were to have an offspring, you would have to call it half cat and half dog. If you say, it isn't a cat, you'd have to say it isn't a dog.
Going back to Jesus, is he part God part human or something different?
We know he is part human, therefore he is, at least, part God. However, there is only one God, therefore Jesus must be God.

Brother David, there is only one thing wrong with your statement. Jesus was not part man, part God. He was fully man and fully God.


Col 1:19  For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Col 2:9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Scripture says that he was fully human. John 1:14 tells us that the Word became flesh. He didn't just look like it, he didn't just pretend. He actually became flesh. His hunger was real, his tiredness was real, his pain was real, his death was real. When his flesh was subjected to more stress than it could handle, he died. Philippians 2:7-8 says he was in the form and shape of a human being. He was a human being.

Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Php 2:7  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8  And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Okay, thank you bro. I had a feeling that something wasn't quite right with it.

Hello Brother David and All,

We are just humans, and our natural way of doing things is to apply human logic. This doesn't work with Almighty God. His ways are beyond Human understanding - first because of His unmeasurable Might and Majesty - second because of His Triune Deity - third because of His no beginning and no ending - and it goes on and on. He creates something out of nothing and is not bound by any natural laws of nature. Why? - He set the laws of nature in place and is the author of them. He is all-knowing and all-seeing - down to the smallest detail like the time a sparrow falls from the sky. He is the King of Kings, yet He loved us enough to die for us and take our punishment in His own Holy Body. Yes, Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man, and no combination of powers could have forced Him to the Cross. He went willingly because He loves us. We can't possibly understand all of it, but we can believe it. He will reveal more to us at His Appointed Time, and that Time might be soon. Man thinks of limits on everything, but God has no limits except His Holy Nature to always tell the truth and keep all of His Promises. His Promises to us are also so wonderful that they are really beyond human imagination, but they will be kept perfectly. We think of beauty from the limited perspective of man, but God speaks of beauty and peace that are unknown to man. It's wonderful just to think about and know that we are Children of the King of Kings.

Love In Christ,
Tom

"In regard to this Great Book, I have but to say, it is the best gift God has given to man. All the good the Savior gave to the world was communicated through this book."
Abraham Lincoln

This is from JR Church and Gary Stearman:

The Alef-Tav

We have in the book of Revelation the appearance of the resurrected Christ to John. Jesus announces to John in Rev 1:8 "I AM the Alpha and Omega" which is saying I AM the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet. But really, it seems reasonable that they spoke Aramaic on earth together. Aramaic is a dialect of Hebrew which uses the Hebrew Aleph-bet. So He was probably speaking in Aramaic again and saying "I AM Alef and Tav" so we believe that Alpha and Omega are the Greek equivalents to the message He was getting accross .

Again in vs. 8 He says, "I Am...the beginning and the ending...". Again in vs. 11 He says "I AM Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, in vs. 17 He says, "I AM the first and the last..." He was referring to something far more profound than appears on the surface.

What John was doing was linking the personna of the resurrected Christ to the Jehova of the Old Testament. As we persue this linkage - Alpha and Omega - Alef Tav - first and last; it leads us all the way back to the very first sentence of the Bible, and many stops in between.                                     Cont'd....

Cont'd...

In Rev. 22, the last chapter of The Revelation of Jesus Christ, the closing verses, He again repeats this in vs. 13 and says, "I Am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." From here it's very simple to jump to the prophet Isaiah.

Isaiah 41:4
"Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the Lord, the first, and with the last; I AM HE."

So we have the LORD Jehovah identifying Himself the first and the last, which relates to Revelation chapter 1 and chapter 22.
Isaiah 44:6
"Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I AM the first, and I AM the last; and BESIDE ME there is NO GOD."                                    Cont'd...

There's a connection there made with the Redeemer - the Messiah.
Isaiah 48:12
"Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I AM HE; I AM the first, I also am the last."

So here are 3 places in Isaiah where God describes Himself as the FIRST AND THE LAST. Jesus takes those titles to Himself in the Revelation of Jesus Christ. That is the Revelation of WHO HE IS!
But it's more than just that - not only is He the first and the last - He is the Alef and the Tav, the first and last letters of the Hebrew Alephbet.
And, BELIEVE IT OR NOT, we can find places in the OT where God is called the Alef and the Tav. This starts in the very first sentence of the Bible.
Genesis 1:1
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
Seven Hebrew words translate that English sentence. Only if you have a Hebrew Bible or an Interlinear Bible can you see this. But in the very middle of those 7 words is the untranslatable ALEF TAV, the first and last letters of the Hebrew Alphabet.                                             Cont'd....

The Alef and the Tav, the first and last letters of the Hebrew Alphabet. Grammatically it is a word that does not translate into English. It adds a grammatical component to the Hebrew that doesn't translate into the English. But it's Aleph and Tav, it's the same word as Alpha and Omega in the Greek, it is the same as the first and the last - it is a title for God according to the sages. It is a word that lends itself to the ineffable name - the name of God which is said to be unpronouncable.
The sages of Israel called the Aleph and Tav the WORD of creation! It reminds us of John 1, "In the beginning was the WORD and the WORD was with God and the WORD WAS GOD." That Word to a Jew, would be none other than Aleph Tav.
In Revelation 19, at the second coming of Christ, He is also called the WORD! It is so obvious that Jesus takes to Himself this title, in the book of Revelation.
The Aleph Tav of Genesis follows the name 'Elohim' and is descriptive of the One who created. So you could read, 'In the beginning God (the AlephTav) created the heavens and the earth.'
                                      Cont'd...

Amen Sister Barbara! - Great Posts!

I, a Christian, of course believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one God. Three in One and One in Three a holy mystery unable to be simply summed up by human logic. But God has told us our human ways of thinking are not His ways:

Isaiah 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.  For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.   

However, for those who would deny the divinity of Jesus this scripture ought to be plain spoken and humanly comprehendible:

Matt. 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

God's peace be with you!
 

Hello Unworthy Made Worthy,

WELCOME! and thank you for your beautiful post.


We're happy to have you with us, and I sincerely hope that you enjoy Christians Unite. I'm happy that you chose this topic to make your first post. Jesus Christ is the only key to Salvation, and His Absolute Divinity is the greatest Truth in all history. He is also the most written about in history and the most often attacked in history. Why? - He is the only rescue from the curse of sin and death and the ultimate adversary of the devil. The devil has an unpleasant eternity in the fires of hell, and Jesus Christ will be the Judge who condemns him and forces his sentence to be carried out. Lastly, Jesus Christ is the only Holy and Righteous Judge who has every right to Judge the entire world. When I hear of evil attacking Jesus Christ and trying to strip Him of His Deity, I understand why. HE is the Judge who will pass sentence on them.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Welcome to the forums, Unworthy Made Worthy. Yes, that is the error that many have made is to use human ways of thinking in an attempt to understand Him and His word. John chapter 3 with the example of Nicodemus is just one of the many examples of this.

I look forward to having some more wonderful fellowship in Christ with you.

Barbara - Amen and thank you.

Unworthy made worthy - Welcome to the forums and thank you also for your post  I had forgotten about those verses in Isaiah and that is just what I needed.  Thank you.

Hi Brother Jerry!! And Welcome Unworthy Made Worthy!!

Cont'd from above...

When we discovered the Aleph and the Tav we started looking through Scripture to see if we could find other examples. They're invisible in English, if you read your King James Bible they don't appear. But here's a good example:
Isaiah, in writing his great prophecy, in the 4th verse of the 1st chapter writes:
"Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward"
In that verse we have they phrase "they have forsaken the LORD" in English, if it were translated, in between 'the' and ' LORD' would appear the Aleph and Tav! So it would translate "...they have forsaken the Aleph Tav (or Alpha Omega) LORD!" It is the 4th word in Isaiah 1, just as it is the 4th word in Genesis 1!!
   This is a beautiful picture of the LORD beiing the Aleph and Tav (the Alpha and Omega). So when Jesus says "I AM the Alpha and Omega, He is referring to Genesis 1:1 - He Is GOD!! When He said "I AM Alpha and Omega, He is referring to Isaiah 1:4, He Is GOD!! That is powerful!!

Cont'd...
 

And just as powerful is Isaiah 6, in which Isaiah has a vision. This is one of the great visions in the whole Bible. Isaiah saw the throne of God! It goes this way:
Isaiah 6:1
"In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the LORD sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple."
What a vision! Do you know that twice in that sentence we have the Aleph and the Tav? Where Isaiah says, "...I saw also the LORD..." it is the Aleph Tav LORD. And then again the words, "...His train filled the temple..." if that was translatable into English, it would read, "...and His train filled the Aleph Tav (or Alpha Omega) temple..." That is the Aleph Tav being used of God's temple in heaven. We've seen so many temples destroyed, but the temple God is sitting upon the throne in, is the ETERNAL TEMPLE...it's the first and the last - it's the patern for the earthly temple - the heavenly temple for which there is NO END. And so the Aleph Tavis rightly ascribed to God's Temple!!
                                    Cont'd...

Zechariah 12 talks about the salvation of Judah. As we read the 10th verse of this chapter we read:
"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."
   The Aleph Tav is in this sentence. Here's the way it should read:
"...and they shall look upon me (the Aleph Tav/ the Alpha and Omega) whom they have pierced..." !!!!!
That is absolutely there, in the Hebrew language. Jesus Christ is referred to here in Zechariah's prophecy.
So when Jesus said this in Revelation 1, and again in chapt. 22, you can see how absolutely awesome that Jesus Christ is saying, through Revelations statement here, 'I Am the One in Zechairah 12 - 'and they will look upon me, the Aleph and Tav, whom they have pierced...'

Cont'd...

Now we come to the grand crescendo of all the Aleph Tavs in the Bible, in my opinion. It's in the 3rd chapter of Habakkuk. This chapter talks about the saving power, the protective power of the LORD God Almighty. It's a tribute of praise, it's almost a Psalm, it really sings. It has in it this reference to the LORD:
Habakkuk 3:13
"Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people, even for salvation with thine anointed; thou woundedst the head out of the house of the wicked, by discovering the foundation unto the neck. Selah."
The English translation is a poor translation. The LORD is shown here going forth to save His people. But we have this phrase here in the middle of the verse, "...even for salvation with thine anointed..."
If you translate this back into the Hebrew it is -
L'Yeshua et Mashiach
This is literally in the Hebrew Bible to this very day - that is exactly the way it reads. And you know what that says in English? It says 'Jesus (Aleph Tav) Messiah'  or 'Jesus (Alpha and Omega) Christ'  in the Greek. The very name of Jesus is given in Habakkuk!!!!!!!!!                              Cont'd...

What we have here is not only the name of Jesus Christ, in Hebrew, in the Old Testament, but right in the middle between Yeshua and Meshiach is the Word of creation - the Aleph and the Tav.

This is fantastic! It boggles the mind! Because once and for all it identifies Jehovah with Jesus, one and the same person, known as THE WORD in John 1:1; known by the rabbis as THE WORD of creation - the Aleph Tav!!!!

And it's been there all the time. The fact that in Revelation we are seeing the Hebrew terminology. When Jesus was saying to all 'Look, I AM the Alpha and Omega, I AM the Aleph and the Tav!!!'

We can see absolutely, that this refers to Jesus Christ!!!!! Revealed in the book of The Revelation of Jesus Christ, and throughout the entirety of the Bible!!!!!

Amen and Amen!

Hi.

I am new here, posted new topics but can't find them.

Also have written to the Webmaster but didn't hear from him.

Therefore, will say something here in the mean time.

The clear language of the scriptures speaks about the Father the only true God and His servant whom He has made a virgin to conceive, upon whom He put His spirit, held his hand, made him the propitiation for our sins.

Now man infers, based on few additions to the ancient scripts and later distorted translation of few more, that God is triune.

There seems no end of man’s desire to make God a liar.


God has said through His servant that He (the Father) is the only true God and that His Son is the only appointed way for man to be reconciled with Him.

He has made the eternal life subject to such knowledge.

Nowhere we find it nullified or contradicted.

Nowhere we find it written that God’s nature is triune.

He clearly doesn’t mention the Holy Spirit in any verse of the fundamental importance like Mt 6:9, Joh 4:23, 17:3, 1Cor 8:6 or any of the epistle openings like 1 Cor 1:3 and so forth.

Is man allowed to speak out from his own imagination?

Isa 8:20  To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

You be the judge.

You've made one post, and this is it.

Regarding your argument, read the thread. Almighty God is UNQUESTIONABLY A HOLY TRINITY - GOD THE FATHER, GOD THE SON, AND GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT. Any other teaching is false teaching, and I have no desire to debate this.

Denying the ABSOLUTE DEITY of any of THE HOLY TRINITY is BLASPHEMY. All other possible arguments are already on the forum in either this thread or others. So, read this thread, and you might also want to read the forum rules.

Hi

Thanks

Your post looks like a thread for me to quote from the written word of God or to frigten me off.

Why don't you show me, instead, where is written what you have just said?

This is what you have just said:

"Almighty God is UNQUESTIONABLY A HOLY TRINITY - GOD THE FATHER, GOD THE SON, AND GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT."

Also, where is written that:

"Denying the ABSOLUTE DEITY of any of THE HOLY TRINITY is BLASPHEMY."

I am afraid of God and care what He says.

Are you sure you speak from His written word?

I have no idea what happened to any of your posts. None have been removed for this user name by moderators here.



Yes, this is a true problem. It is done time and again by those that refuse to acknowledge the scriptures that speak time again of the unity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Col 2:8  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:


Herein lies the problem instead of taking God at His word people tend to want to judge according to their own human understanding and not through the wisdom and words of God.


Brother Tom did point you in that direction. Anything more to be said would be simply repeating scripture that has already been placed in these two threads. It is obvious that you wish to ignore those scriptures and to argue your point against what scripture says.

As Brother Tom said, So, read this thread, and you might also want to read the forum rules.

This is not meant to 'frighten you off' but rather to point out that this thread already tells the truth and fact of the Trinity which you quite apparently need and to point out the forum rules which prohibit the posting of any falsehoods and blasphemies. You have been given fair warning.

jerzy W,

You sound like the return of an already banned person. In fact, you might have already been banned twice. If so, now you've been banned the third time. You're in the wrong place and on the wrong forum for the blasphemy of denying the Deity of Jesus Christ. Read the "Statement of Faith" for Christians Unite.

Your false teaching would be welcome on a Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, or Islamic forum - but not here. Folks on a forum for atheists would also welcome your blasphemy. Again, read the Statement of Faith for Christians Unite.

Another good thread to read, ponder, and study is:

"Are You Lost?" (http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=24879.0)

I just want to say Amen and ditto, brothers.

Hello Brother David,

Thank You, and I know that your heart belongs to Jesus Christ. I love to think about the precious Promises of God every day. I hate to imagine what things would be like had Jesus Christ not gone to the Cross in our place. Today is a special day of celebration and thanks, but we can make every day a special day of celebration and thanks.

Jesus Christ did arise from the dead, and He is our Living Lord and Saviour. As Christians, we live because He Lives, and our Life is in Him as an Eternal Purchased Possession. I give thanks every day that I belong to Him and that nothing can ever separate me from the Love of God.

Romans 12:5 KJV  So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Galatians 6:10 KJV  As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

Ephesians 5:18-21 KJV  And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;  19  Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;  20  Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;  21  Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Colossians 3:15-17 KJV  And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.  16  Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.  17  And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Love In Christ,
Tom

I have already posted this in the regular devotionals that I usually place in the Bible Studies area but thought this was an appropriate place to post it also as it is the subject of this thread.

From Days of Praise at http://www.icr.org/article/6148/

I Am
July 30, 2011
 
"And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." (Mark 14:62)
 
After His arrest, "the chief priests and all the council sought for witness against Jesus to put him to death; and found none" (Mark 14:55). Then they got their sought-after witness from Jesus Himself when the high priest asked Him: "Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?" (v. 61), and it only took two words from Him. "I Am!"
 
As a matter of fact, this was not the first time He had thus identified Himself as the self-existent, eternal God. On an earlier occasion in Jerusalem, He had told the Pharisees: "I am the light of the world," and then, "I am from above: . . . I am not of this world. . . . If ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins" (John 8:12, 23-24; the "he" in verse 24 is not in the Greek original).
 
He made this especially clear a few minutes later when He asserted: "Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58). But when He finally made this wonderfully truthful claim in the presence of the council, "they all condemned him to be guilty of death" (Mark 14:64). He had committed the capital crime of blasphemy in their opinion, by claiming to be God.
 
"I am" is, in fact, the very name of God. When Moses, at the burning bush, was called by God to deliver the Israelites from slavery, God said His name was "I AM THAT I AM" (Exodus 3:14). The name Jehovah (or Yahweh), the most frequently used name of the Lord in the Old Testament, is essentially this name.
 
One can count at least 196 "I am" claims of God in Christ ("I am the way, the truth, and the life," for example--John 14:6) in the Bible. Truly our Lord Jesus Christ is the eternal, self-existent God, "Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Revelation 22:13). HMM

Amen Soldier4Christ! - Nice addition!