Seventh Day Adventists

[C C]

Hi Leftcoast,

It's most likely because you don't understand how the Greek language functions.  Words have flavor and develop a meaning by the surrounnding words in Greek.  If what you are looking at are not actually the greek symbols themselves, but words that are translated from the greek symbols into words that use our own alphabete, then what you have is not the original greek.  It's already been halfway translated for you probably by someone biased against women teaching in the church.

What you want to do is crack out the REAL Greek symbols and see how the word that functions for women has HUNDREDS of functions.  There were probably thousands Each is VERY specific in its reference with utmost specific purpose.  

English is almost a worthless language it its written form and that is why we use emoticons so much.  In greek you didn't even need periods or question marks or exclamation points because the text itself was so descriptive that it wasn't necesary.

I think what you have is a translation that chops all those precise words and turns them into unprecise words and throws everything into categories like the English language does --women--all encompassing.  Greek really doesn't do that.  Someone skilled in the English language that doesn't know any better would assume this is just as correct.  It's really not.

I would love to be an expert on the Greek language, but I'm really not.  All you really have to do is notice that women do teach all over the Bible.  Notice that, and that should be evidence enough--that including a wee bit of study--that "authority" over men specifically mentioned in that particular scripture does have some sort of reference to some kind of sexual chemistry--this gets chopped out though a lot.  The words as they work together are implying something that should not be going on in church, and it's not saying that there cannot be female sunday school teachers.  You can take that to the bank.  

Love and peace

Candice

[Left Coast]

Candice
I do understand how the Greek works.
I realize there are many words that translators have translated woman. I gave you several.
Many times they also translate the same word different ways -- gunaiki = woman and wife.
You tried to present the idea that the word that was translated woman in 1 Timothy 2:12 was referring to a certain kind of woman.

The scripture you're quoting about women teaching in church refers to a certain kind of woman. It actually is only referring to certain women and the intonation is that the reference is to women that have a certain type of authority over men, a sexual type of authority--women aren't supposed to have sexual authority over men and use that to teach in church--.

To find truth, more important than needing how to understand how Greek works, you must understand how the bible works.
To rightly divide the truth we must compare scripture with scripture.
I gave you several examples where your exact Greek word was used in the scripture.
I do not see any real support for your definition.
It is the word ‘gunaiki’.
Compare scripture with scripture.

1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman <gunaiki> to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Luke 2:5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife <gunaiki>, being great with child.

How can you say this same Greek word fits your definition?
Can women teach? Yes.
Children and other women can be, and should be, taught by a woman.

Titus 2:3  The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Titus 2:4  That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

Timothy was taught by his mother and grandmother. Women are to be in control of the home. There are many wonderful and honorable roles for women.
All of us are to witness, that is the meaning of prophesying. This is different than speaking out loud in the church, or having authority.
The Samaritan woman told others about Jesus.

It's already been halfway translated for you probably by someone biased against women teaching in the church.

I showed you by comparing scripture with scripture. The same Greek word does not fit your definition.
The idea that the translators were a bunch of sexists is weak.
You present a feminist argument, there are many women that are knowledgeable about the scripture, but pride leads them to think that makes them qualified to teach men in the church.
I believe I could do a better job than several pastors I have seen, I know my abilities. I am not afraid to speak in front of crowds, I love the Lord. I should consider being a pastor, or a deacon -- problem is I am not qualified.

1 Timothy 3:2  A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1 Timothy 3:12  Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
Titus 1:6  If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

I am divorced.
I have to accept the roles God will allow me to have.
The word translated ‘usurp authority’ is ‘authenteo’. This is the only place in the bible it appears. I also am not a Greek Scholar, so I do rely on the definition of experts such as
Mr. Strong for the definition.

1) one who with his own hands kills another or himself
2) one who acts on his own authority, autocratic
3) an absolute master
4) to govern, exercise dominion over one
---
Do you have an alternative expert that can explain it differently?
---
Young’s concordance likens it to:

To use ones own armour.  
---  
There are two literal translation I know of.
Young’s does throw an interesting twist on it:

(Young) 1 Timothy 2:12 and a woman I do not suffer to teach, nor to rule a husband, but to be in quietness,

I believe Jay Green wrote the original interlinear bible. He also wrote the Modern King James and a Literal version.

(LITV (Green)) 1 Timothy 2:12 And I do not allow a woman to teach nor to exercise authority over a man, but to be in silence.
---
If all we had was 1 Timothy 2:12 we would not have enough evidence to make a decision. There is more.
1 Timothy 3:2  A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife…
The word bishop means overseer, the person in charge. A woman can not be the husband of one wife.

The strongest argument for the women to be silent is:

1 Corinthians 14:34 ¶ Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1 Corinthians 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
----------
(Young) 1 Corinthians 14:34 Your women in the assemblies let them be silent, for it hath not been permitted to them to speak, but to be subject, as also the law saith;
(Young) 1 Corinthians 14:35 and if they wish to learn anything, at home their own husbands let them question, for it is a shame to women to speak in an assembly.
----------
(LITV (Green)) 1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women be silent in the assemblies, for it is not allowed to them to speak, but to be in subjection, as also the Law says.
(LITV (Green)) 1 Corinthians 14:35 But if they desire to learn anything, let them question their husbands at home; for it is a shame for a woman to speak in an assembly.

This is a different word for woman. If you put all the scripture together, women are to be silent in the church.
They can teach children, and older women should be teaching the younger.
Men and women, both, are to witness to others. We can all teach outside of the church. But we need to be careful not to create our own assembly.
Ellen created her own assembly.  

[gman]

If Christ cooked a fish BBQ for His Apostles after His crucifixion. Why do you Adventists not eat fish?
Hmmm?

Don't know what your source is, but a lot of Adventists do eat fish, along with other meat (the clean meats, not pork).  Being a vegitarian is just a personal decision a lot of SDA's make.  

Here is a good link:

http://en.bibleinfo.com/topics/topic.html?id=63

[Left Coast]

If Christ cooked a fish BBQ for His Apostles after His crucifixion. Why do you Adventists not eat fish?
Hmmm?

Don't know what your source is, but a lot of Adventists do eat fish, along with other meat (the clean meats, not pork).  Being a vegitarian is just a personal decision a lot of SDA's make.  

Here is a good link:

http://en.bibleinfo.com/topics/topic.html?id=63

What is wrong with pork?
Would you eat catfish, lobster?
Ostrich?

[His_child]

If Christ cooked a fish BBQ for His Apostles after His crucifixion. Why do you Adventists not eat fish?
Hmmm?

Don't know what your source is, but a lot of Adventists do eat fish, along with other meat (the clean meats, not pork).  Being a vegitarian is just a personal decision a lot of SDA's make.  

Here is a good link:

http://en.bibleinfo.com/topics/topic.html?id=63

Please explain what is clean and what isn't.
Some of the beef produced today is not nearly as clean as some of the pork.

The only two meats that I know for sure SDAs don't eat are pork and shrimp. For the life of me, I can't figure out why.

[creationist]

Ellen White was a herbivore (vegetarian Haha).
She was one because of religious reasons and not choice.
Even if they chose to be by choice, how come there are so many SDA vegies? Because they do it for religious reasons.

[C C]

 

Hi Leftcoast!

Oh, you're SOOOOO busted.    That scripture you're quoting, "Husband of one wife . . ."  Those words truly actually infinately precisely originally in greek mean OVERSEER OF AT LEAST one HELPER"  And that word "HELPER" has also been the same word as "Holy Spirit"  So, by your methods and understanding of correct translation from Greek to English translation,   you're saying that the Holy Spirit shouldn't teach in church.  That cracks me up you know.

Quit reading the Alphabetical translations you're looking at OR leave room for mistranslation.  

For the record, I have been a professional translator, Interpretor, and Bi-lingual secretary and I know precisely how things get messed up in translation.  This is the case in your case of "husband of one wife"  that's what someone wants it to say, but that's not what was said and not what was intended either.

Peace

[C C]

Leftcoast,

Does your wife talk too much?  I was just wondering why you were so versed in all the scriptures about women talking, if you had personal problems with the issue.

As for the other scriptures you were  quoting, remember backin that day the men sat on one side of an isle and the women sat on the other side, and of course women weren't allowed to learn to read and write and so they'd be constantly yelling across the isle when they had a question which disrupted the Sunday school classes.

Remember, Christ gave women new freedom.  "neither male nor female", suddenly became the norm among Christians and hey women were allowed to come to learn.  It was new to them.  

Candice

[Left Coast]

Candice you are confused.
I’ll take the blame I must not have been very clear.

1 Timothy 3:2  A bishop <episkopos> then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

The word ‘bishop’ means overseer. The word ‘husband’ does not mean overseer.
Strong’s isn’t the best, but from Strong’s:

Bishop:
episkopos

1) an overseer
1a) a man charged with the duty of seeing that things to be done by others are done rightly, any curator, guardian or superintendent
1b) the superintendent, elder, or overseer of a Christian church

Husband:
aner
 
1) with reference to sex
1a) of a male
1b) of a husband
1c) of a betrothed or future husband
2) with reference to age, and to distinguish an adult man from a boy
3) any male
4) used generically of a group of both men and women

I am not sure why you said:

"Husband of one wife . . ."  Those words truly actually infinately precisely originally in greek mean OVERSEER OF AT LEAST one HELPER"  And that word "HELPER" has also been the same word as "Holy Spirit"  So, by your methods and understanding of correct translation from Greek to English translation,   you're saying that the Holy Spirit shouldn't teach in church.  That cracks me up you know.

Where did you come up with such a wacked out idea?

Hebrews 13:6  So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper <boethos>, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

Boethos only appears in this verse of Hebrews. How does it even resemble any word at all in 1 Timothy 3:2, especially gunaiko which is the word translated wife.
Where do you get this stuff?
Holy Spirit?? HOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!??

1 Thessalonians 4:8  He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy <hagios> Spirit <pneuma>.

Holy:
hagios

AV-holy 161, saints 61, Holy One 4, misc 3; 229

1) most holy thing, a saint

Spirit:
pneuma

AV-Spirit 111, (Holy) Ghost 89, Spirit (of God) 13, Spirit (of the Lord) 5, (My) Spirit 3, Spirit (of truth) 3, Spirit (of Christ) 2, human (spirit) 49, (evil) spirit 47, spirit (general) 26, spirit 8, (Jesus’ own) spirit 6, ( Jesus’ own) ghost 2, misc 21; 385

1) the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
1a) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the Holy Spirit)
1b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of Truth)
1c) never referred to as a depersonalised force
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
2a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
2b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
3a) a life giving spirit
3b) a human soul that has left the body
3c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
3c1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
3c2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
4a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
5) a movement of air (a gentle blast)
5a) of the wind, hence the wind itself
5b) breath of nostrils or mouth

HOW CAN ANY OF THESE WORDS COME EVEN CLOSE TO GUNAIKO?
Did you get your information from a woman by chance?

1 Timothy 2:14  And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

If you are a professional then do your homework. Give some evidence that you know what you are talking about.

[Left Coast]

Leftcoast,

Does your wife talk too much?  I was just wondering why you were so versed in all the scriptures about women talking, if you had personal problems with the issue.

As for the other scriptures you were  quoting, remember backin that day the men sat on one side of an isle and the women sat on the other side, and of course women weren't allowed to learn to read and write and so they'd be constantly yelling across the isle when they had a question which disrupted the Sunday school classes.

Remember, Christ gave women new freedom.  "neither male nor female", suddenly became the norm among Christians and hey women were allowed to come to learn.  It was new to them.  

Candice

I am no longer married, my wife moved out and moved in with her boyfriend.
She did talk a lot, I never had a problem with it.
I have had several women for supervisors never had a problem with it.
I work for a married couple now, the wife is more even tempered and better organized than the husband, I have no problem with her telling me what to do.
I am versed in several areas of the scripture, and yet still learning.
Because the bible says marriage is until death do you part, I can not date.
It gives me time to search the scripture.
When the wife moved out, and I discovered her boyfriend I went deep into prayer. It is not easy being alone, I always enjoyed the company of women. Now that I am a Christian I have to do with out.
I have never had any issues with women.
God is the one that has established the roles, why don’t you want to obey God?  

2 Timothy 3:6  For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2 Timothy 3:7  Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

[Left Coast]

Candice
I have been bothered as to why you are confused, I want you to understand.
It occurred to me you were thinking someone was attaching words to the Greek words.
What I have been giving you with words like --  hagios -- is the Greek word in an English Font.
Highlight the words, change the font to symbol, now you have the Greek word as it appears in the Greek text.

1 Timothy 3:2  A bishop <episkopon> then must be blameless, the husband <andra> of one wife <gunaikoV>, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Hebrews 13:6  So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper <bohqoV>, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

1 Thessalonians 4:8  He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy <agion> Spirit <pneuma>.

I went to http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm and copied down the Greek text, I feel this is more accurate than Strong’s which I used earlier.
I think the V at the end of gunaiko and  bohqo probably has to do with the tense of the word. If it has some thing to do with the Holy Spirit explain how.
That same V appears in many places such as:

1 Timothy 3:3  Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre <aiscrokerdeiV>; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

I haven’t researched it out in that much depth. You are the first person that has caused me to do this, I only do it because I want you to understand. I like to learn also.
I don’t see any way 1 Timothy 3:2 could fit your definition, help me out here.
Does this help you out at all?

John

[gman]

If Christ cooked a fish BBQ for His Apostles after His crucifixion. Why do you Adventists not eat fish?
Hmmm?

Don't know what your source is, but a lot of Adventists do eat fish, along with other meat (the clean meats, not pork).  Being a vegitarian is just a personal decision a lot of SDA's make.  

Here is a good link:

http://en.bibleinfo.com/topics/topic.html?id=63

What is wrong with pork?
Would you eat catfish, lobster?
Ostrich?

I used pork as an example.
What do you mean whats wrong with pork?  Ever heard the term kosher?  

See Leviticus 11 if you are really concerned with clean and unlcean foods.

[gman]

Ellen White was a herbivore (vegetarian Haha).
She was one because of religious reasons and not choice.
Even if they chose to be by choice, how come there are so many SDA vegies? Because they do it for religious reasons.

First of all, Ellen White was not all SDA's.  And you bring up a goid point about choosing to be a vegitarian or not to be one.  It doesn't matter.

[Left Coast]

If Christ cooked a fish BBQ for His Apostles after His crucifixion. Why do you Adventists not eat fish?
Hmmm?

Don't know what your source is, but a lot of Adventists do eat fish, along with other meat (the clean meats, not pork).  Being a vegitarian is just a personal decision a lot of SDA's make.  

Here is a good link:

http://en.bibleinfo.com/topics/topic.html?id=63

What is wrong with pork?
Would you eat catfish, lobster?
Ostrich?

I used pork as an example.
What do you mean whats wrong with pork?  Ever heard the term kosher?  

See Leviticus 11 if you are really concerned with clean and unlcean foods.

I didn't realize you were Jewish.
I'm a Christian.

Colossians 2:14  Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Colossians 2:15  And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Colossians 2:16  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Colossians 2:17  Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

I know the Jews do not recognize Christ but as a Christian I do, therefore the shadows are no longer to be observed.
These things were nailed to the cross.

You only eat Kosher?

[C C]

Leftcoast,

Men oppressing women is not a God-made institution.  It's a man-made institution.  It has a whole lot to do with the stronger getting advantage of the weaker.

The Mormons of old used to use that "Husband of AT LEAST one wife" interpretation of the Bible as an excuse to practice polygamy.  And sexist pigs use the "Husband of one wife" interpretation to prove that women can't be the leaders of a church because they like to have the house cleaned and supper cooked when they get home.  As a general rule, men like to be waited on hand and foot.  They like it so they're not getting in an uproar about how the Bible has been translated.  

What it all means to me is that you can use anything you want to get your way if someone gives you authority over them in the name of God and they use the Bible to try to make you do what you want them to do.

I would like to point out that even in your translation of the word Husband the last option says it can be either male or female.  Of course the sexist pigs would want to cover that up because they're so busy feeling superior to at least some creature on the earth.

Jesus died for our sins.  Period.  The words "Husband of one wife" don't even mean husband of one wife.  But if you want to use that to keep women from coming to Jesus you can do that if you want.

Let me give you an example of what happens in translation of words.  In the English understanding of plant life, plants die.  There's death among flowers, trees, weeds, grass--we call it death when a plant dies.

In Spanish death among plant life is unheard of and a concept that's clearly and distinctly obsurd capable of creating laughter if you say a plant "Died."  If a plant dies, in the correct tanslation would be "The plant DRIED"  

So even if you have the most sophisticated translator on the planet, you still have to know concepts in languages to get the real meaning of a translation.  You can't just exchange words for words and expect a meaning.

Since it was taught that in the Kingdom of heaven there is neither male nor female, then what you have to do is understand that something must have been intended on the scriptures that you quoted that imply that women have a different status in society then men do.  Or else you undo  Christ's work.  

Now if you want to say something and justify saying it, then using the exchange words for words system can take you places.  But if you are seeking the Truth, maybe you might want to consider Paul would either laugh or become angry at the way his words got mangled.  Of course, there's not been enough men in this world to really want to defend the truth enough to defend what Paul really meant to say.

I assure you, The Good News of the Gospel has been preached at women so they would be submissive in the home and quiet in the church for centuries.  That's not Good News.  And it's not really that much related to what Christ's mission on earth was either.

For Christ's sake, what was Christ's mission?

Focus on what Christ's mission actually was and you'll begin to see the obsurdity in the translations of some of the texts.

Only when you are really focused on Christ and are doing His will will you sit back and say "wow, It is for freedom that Christ set us free, and yet it is for slavery and submission that folks preach the gospel in many cases.  Gee, there really must be an anti-Christ undoing Christ's work".

Helper which was used to describe the Holy Spirit, and that word Helper that was used as Overseer with a helper.  All I know is that I wasn't going about studying to find out if this was true, I wasn't trying to prove anything either way.  Actually, it is with great fear and trembling that I've approached this topic because its so much different then many men.  In my  interest of how words are translated over time I noticed Helper was Holy Spirit and another time that same word Helper was also translated as "wife" and I kept on noting this same thing through out my studies and one day I said, "wow, there's a concept"

Then, I realized that there these paragraphs and chapters were put in the Bible weren't placed there by the original writers and so I stopped stopping at ends of chapters.  What I started doing was reading right through the end of one to the beginning of another and I noticed in this new context lots of stuff takes on new meaning.

Sometimes, this may be hard for you to reach, but do you sometimes that since Eve was called a helper, and wife is also called a helper, it could be referring to a woman, but helper is also referred to as the Holy Spirit who would help us, so that word helper is only getting its sex by people who want to tell women what they can and can't do.  It's not really the truth that's being saught.  That's my understanding of it.

But I don't think my understanding of it is really that important because I don't want to get distracted by the real issues--as in the Greatest commandments.  Love God and Love your neighbor.

Daily I ask the Lord to lead me just enough so I don't waste any time on earth.  And always put people in my path who He is working with that a person like me can be used with.   I'm finding out though, that, there's quite a bit of men in the world that want a slave woman.  They want someone to serve them and wait on them and used their time and energy in expense to their manly persuits.  And they call themselves Christians and the come in the name of the Lord.  So, that's why I'm deciding to come forward with my understanding of what Christ really means for us to do.

Peace