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why do you feel that way?

Dunno, but they make good cornflakes

huh?
SDAs make good cornflakes?
I don't understand the humor behind that.

SDAs were started by Ellen White, who was supposed to be a prophet who lived in the 1800s (I think).
My mother has been an SDA for years, but basically all she will tell me is that they wear only a minimal amount of jewelry, don't eat pork and worship on Saturdays.

Here is a site on SDAs for those who are unfamiliar with it.

http://www.namb.net/root/resources/beliefbulletins/cults/seventh_day.asp

's an Australian in-joke.
The Seventh Day Adventists are behind Sanitarium - a big health food and breakfast cereal producer in Australia.

The Seventh-Day Adventist church is an established christian denomination not a cult. Anyone who says differently is misinformed. The church worships on Saturday in accordance with the 10 commandment teaching that the 7th day is the Sabbath. It is true that most SDA's practice a healthy lifestyle with either vegetarian or semi-vegetarian diet and also obstain from alcohol, smoking  and caffeine. Here is the official website of the SDA church:        www.adventist.org

cult

The thing that binds all christian denominations is the belief that Jesus is the son of God and our lord and Savior which is an SDA belief. So before you start throwing out accusations you better be able to back them up. Because I can back up all beliefs of SDA's beliefs with biblical references. The Bible is my guide and I refuse to accept "theological" teachings invented by mankind.

how can you just write cult without showing proof to this conclusion you've come to sda church is NOT A CULT  i dont know how you came to this conclusion so before  you point the finger saying  its a cult you better recheck your sources

I know that my mom became an SDA a few years back.
What little she speaks of her religion is very legalistic.

I don't know what you mean by legalistic. SDA's choose not to ignore important teachings in the Old Testament such as following all of the 10 commandments ( Exodus 20) and instructions on diet (Leviticus 11). Do you think that it's a coincidence that the only commandment that states "remember" is forgetten or ignored (Exodus 20:8-10)? I don't believe that works alone will guarantee anyone a spot in heaven.  It is true that God's love is unconditional. Also that accepting the gift he gave us on the cross is part of salvation. However, the best way to show love is by actions right. By following his teachings or what I call his instruction manual (the bible) we are showing the love we have for him. Words are meaningless without actions to support those words.

Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man.

Why do you follow the works of Ellen G. White?

The full text is found in Mark 2:27,28:"And he said unto them. the sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:"Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath"
 Jesus was saying that he made the Sabbath for us a day where we rest by leaving the troubles of the week behind and putting our full focus on him. Exodus:20:8-10 "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. "Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:"But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God; in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates"  

What else does God say about the sabbath?
 
Exodus 31:16,17: Wherefore the children of Isreal shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Isreal for ever:for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed"

Eze. 20:12: "Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them"

Eze.:20:20:"And hollow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the Lord your God"


Did God warn against the impending change of the Sabbath in the bible?
 Isa 59:12-14: And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places:thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, the repairer of the breach, the restorer of paths to dwell in. If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the savvath a delight, the hold of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure,nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt though delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the eath, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father:for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it"

Isaiah 56:1,2 "Thus saith the Lord, keep ye judgement, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil"

Dan 7:25 "And he shall speak great words against the most high, and shall wear out the saints of the most high, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into this hand until a time and times and the divinding of time"

What does the new testament say about the Sabbath?

Luke 4:16: "So he [Jesus] came to Nazareth where he had been brought up. And as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read."

There is no mention of Sunday being the day of worship in the bible so where did it come from?

Jesus birth or ressurection did not change the sabbath.Matt. 5:17-19: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and each them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

 Even in death Jesus kept the Sabbath. He died on Friday night and resurrected on Sunday. He "rested" through Sabbath. Matt 28:1-7: Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn. Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. And behold , there was a great eathquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door and sat on it. His counternance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men. But the angel answered and said to the women. "Do not be afriad, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. He is not here for he is risen, as he said.Come and see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead, and indeed he is going before you into Galilee; there you will see him, Behold I have told you"

Sunday was orginally a pagan day of worship where the sun god was celebrated. Because many sun worshipers were coming into the early church, pagan and christian practices were mixed. It became a practice to worship on Saturday and Sunday. It wasn't until later that Sunday worship was widely popularized. According to the encyclopedia britannica {11th edition] pg 95) "the earliest recognition of the observance of Sunday as a legal duty is a constitution of Constantine in A.D. 321, enacting that all courts of justice, inhitants of towns, and workshops were to be at rest on Sunday."

This is taken from "A History of the Christian Councils" by Charles Joseph Hefele":  Canon 29 of the council of laodicea states "Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day; but the Lord's day they shall especially honour, and; as being christians shall. if possible. do no work on that day. If. however. they are found Judaizing they shall be shut out from Christ. "

2 Thess 2:3,4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God"
By changing God's law man attempts to be God.



To answer your question about Ellen White.  Ellen White's works are in no way held in higher accord then the bible by SDA's. Reading her works are by no means a prerequisite to being SDA or christian. They are books of commentary that use the bible as references. Only to be used as means to better understand the bible. Also it shows us how to apply the word to the present day (without adding or removing any biblical law). She is simple an author and founder of our church and has never claimed to be more than that.

 

Ellen White is not a self-claimed prophet. She did state that she recieved visions from God. The insights that she wrote about from her visions is proof to many that her visions were real. (especially with her limited education). Many who judge her or refute her have not read any of her works or known anything about her life story. Like I said before she has always refered back to the bible in her works and they provide a better understanding of the bible. She is the one who brought focus back to the Sabbath and promoted a healthy lifestyle. She never tried to take credit for any insight she made but gave all the glory to God. If you really want to know about Ellen G. White and her role in the SDA church you can go to: http://www.whiteestate.org/about/egwbio.asp  

I think they mean legalistic in the sense that Christ taught us to fulfill the spirit of the law through love, not the letter of the law as our school teacher (the Old Testament) showed us we could not do.

Christ made it clear when He healed on the Sabbath that a legalistic adherance was not what God is looking for.  He is more concerned with mercy not sacrifice, and does not judge us if we honor one day above another.  That is why the Church chose to change the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.

There is nothing wrong with worshipping on Saturday, but to teach that anything else is sinful, is wrong and based on a legalistic interpretation of scripture.

Just to be a little picky - with respect to the verse you quote the King James version (both the "Modern" and the "Standard") and the American Standard Version say this:

Mat 12:5  Or have you not read in the Law that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath and are blameless?
Mat 12:6  But I say to you that One greater than the temple is in this place.
Mat 12:7  But if you had known what this is, "I desire mercy and not sacrifice," you would not have condemned those who are not guilty.
Mat 12:8  For the Son of Man is Lord even of the sabbath.
Mat 12:9  And when He had departed from there, He went into their synagogue.

Mar 2:27  And He said to them, The sabbath came into being for man's sake, and not man for the sabbath's sake.
Mar 2:28  Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the sabbath.

In your quote you forgot that little word "even" - it changes the meaning of verse.

What this says is that he is Lord "even" or "also" of the sabbath; not just Lord of the sabbath. Even or also makes it inclusive of every day.

Jesus works and heals, even on the sabbath.

Personally, I worship on Sunday with my brothers and sisters in Christ, and every other day of the week on my own, however, I have nothing against those who worship on Saturday (or any other day, for that matter).

Unfortunately, the bible also contains some rather unhappy references to the sabbath:

Joh 5:16  And for this cause the Jews persecuted Jesus, because he did these things on the sabbath.
Joh 5:18  For this cause therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only brake the sabbath, but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Joh 9:13  They bring to the Pharisees him that aforetime was blind.
Joh 9:14  Now it was the sabbath on the day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes.
Joh 9:15  Again therefore the Pharisees also asked him how he received his sight. And he said unto them, He put clay upon mine eyes, and I washed, and I see.
Joh 9:16  Some therefore of the Pharisees said, This man is not from God, because he keepeth not the sabbath. But others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such signs? And there was division among them.

Regardless of whether we worship on Saturday or Sunday (or Wednesday) perhaps we would all do well to remember....

Col 2:16  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:


Gracey

I, like Gracey, worship on Sunday with my brothers and sisters in Christ and the rest of the week on my own.

I don't know any Christians who hate SDAs (or any other Saturday worshippers) because of the day they choose to worship.
I do hate it when they claim that Sunday worship is satanic.

I've known many SDAs and have been to some of their seminars.  They are a lovely bunch - spirit filled and working in the spirit.  While I don't agree with all their teachings (their interpretation of the 144,000 for instance) and practices (veggie diets) I know some things for a fact:

They Worship Jesus Christ as God: 1/3rd of the Holy Trinity.  They know that the only way to the Father is through the Son.  That makes them Christians in my book.  

One last thing to point out - they read/study the same Bible versions we do, unlike the JW and LDS who "translated" their own versions or added complete volumes.

Cult :)

Why do many SDAs not eat pork, yet some do eat red meat?

I don't believe SDA is a cult. I believe there are good Christians who hold to the SDA beliefs. However, the SDAs are most definitely wrong. Just to give you an example, the SDAs strictly follow Biblical teaching by worshiping on Saturday. But even they miss some important aspects. For instance, if you strictly follow the Bible and worship on Saturday, you also have to strictly follow the Biblical day. The Biblical day starts at sunset the day before and ends on the next sunset. So, even the SDAs are off, because their Saturday night services would actually be on Sunday morning according to the Biblical day. And according to that their Saturday morning services should actually be on Friday night.

What I'm trying to say here is that the SDA belief is way too strict. So strict, in fact, that even they don't follow it completely.

You guys are missing something very important. The SDAs can't even say that Saturday IS the seventh day. True, Saturday is the seventh day in our calenders, but our calenders didn't come around until well after Creation! So for all we know, the day that God rested could be Tuesday.

Basically the SDA belief is too legalistic for its own good. If the world were to all of a sudden adopt a new calender that had the seventh day be where Thursday is now, what would the SDAs do? Now you might say that God expects us to worship on the seventh day whether its on Saturday (like the current calender) or on Wednesday (like a future calender might have) to honor His day of rest. But I think that is placing too much stock in worldy things. The world is always changing. We can't go chasing the seventh day around. God just wants us to honor a day, no matter when it is, and worship him and rest on that day.

"Oh foolish Galatians! . . . Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?"

If it were called, "Love Thy Neighbor Adventists" that would be a whole different ball game.  I don't know much, but I do know that the best way to  ;D feel righteous is to pick out the laws that are easiest for a person to keep and keep those and then make big deals about them and create a religion around them.  Then you can FEEL and LOOK righteous in and around everyone who agrees with you.  and you can isolate yourselves from anyone who thinks differently and you wont have to love your neighbor.  All the while bypassing the greatest commandments.   ;D

 ??? As a Baptist we "worship God" on the "First" day of the week (as did the early churches after Christ's resurrection)... they met on the first day of the week.

Um... isn't the "Sabbath" old testament? I mean, in Hebrews it says that now we are under "Grace" not "The Law." If we have to live by the "old Testament" law then all our children that were unruly would be stoned! ROFL ROFL   :-X YIKES! There would be alot more "respectful" children if we all lived TOTALLY by the Old Testament Law... heck, for that matter everyone one of us would have broken the 10 Commandments by now... where would that leave us?

Anyway.. I'm not condemning the SDA's... not at all.. I'm sure they love the Lord.  I was just speaking my "thoughts" that's all!  ;)

Lady Kay

thhhhhhhhhhheer  grrrrrrreat  frosted flakes

They pick and chose what laws they follow.

I’ve never seen my SDA friend's wife stay home when she has her period.
They claim that they are Nazarines, yet the Nazarines are not suppose to drink grape juice but they do. They also shave. The women don't cover their heads in church. They get involved in church matters etc etc etc.
There are many OT laws that they don’t follow. But just as someone said in a previous post "they only follow the easy laws."

This is in response to anyone who stated that SDA's pick and choose laws and to the negative conotations of the Sabbath in the bible.

In the bible there are two types of laws mentioned in the New Testmanent...ceremonial law and moral law. Ceremonial law would be ritual matters such circumcision, meat offerings as atonement for sin and a women being isolated during her menstral cycle.
Ceremonial obligations such as these were ended at the cross not moral ten commandments.
The ten commandments do not deal with any ceremonial issues, they came straight from his mouth and  were edged into stone by God's own finger

The following verses are usually the verses used to support the claim that sabbath worship is no longer neccesary:

Galations 4:9,10 it states "But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage. You observe days and months and seasons and years. "

Also Colossians 2:16,17: "Therefore let no man judge you in food or in drink; or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths.""which are a shadow of things to come but the substance is of Christ."

To understand these verses you have to understand early Jewish customs. In Leviticus 23, it describes the difference between observing the sabbath and Sabbath festivals.   These festivals were celebrated specific sabbaths  once a year on fixed dates of certain months, such as the Passover sabbath on the fourteenth day of the first month. These are the ceremonial laws that were abolished. In Colossians it speaks of the festivals as being "a shadow of things to come". None of the 10 Commandments fit that description instead they are everlasting principles. Sabbath rest is actually dated all the way back to creation. The people at that time did not have any reason to confuse the different references of Sabbaths that Paul referred to  because  the Sabbath festivals did not occur regularly.

Grace and Law

Grace means pardon, love, mercy,kindness. It basically frees us from eternal condemnation or eternal death.

Yes we are saved by grace but grace does not free us from observing God's law. 1 John 3:4 says "Whosever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness."

If the moral laws were abolished then that would be that there is no sin Romans 4:15 states: "For where there is no law there is no transgression. "
 
It also states in Romans 7:7-14  that law and commandment are "holy", " just" and "good".   If you believe that Paul is speaking of abolishing all law then that would mean that the bible is contradicting itself because their are biblical references that up hold the law (moral law) and abolishing laws (ceremonial law) in the New Testament. The 10 commandments are moral laws because they are a vision of God's character. Everyone of them reveals to us how we can be more like him.

I am not here to comment on the state  of anyone salvation. I do  know however that along with his grace he gave us instructions to follow for our own good. I am far from perfect and I do not claim to have never broken a commandment . I have however have made a conscious effort to keep all of them and with God's love, grace and support I can and will continue to do his will.

Actually SDA's open the Sabbath on Friday at sundown and close Sabbath on Saturday at Sundown. This is according to the original biblical calender that can be traced all the way back.
In Lev. 23:32 it states "from evening to evening  you shall celebrate your sabbath". The Isrealites were instructed on what was considered the 7th day and Jewish people even today continue to observe the Sabbath in the same manner.
Some translations state evening as "even" it still has the same meaning.
Mark 1:32: "And at even, when the sun did set, they bought unto him all that were diseased, and them that were possessed with devils."

Why is keeping every commandment important?

Exodus:20:8-10 "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. "Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:"But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God; in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates"  

Do you think that it is a concidence that the Sabbath commandment is the only commandment that says Remember? Could it be that God was warning us against forgetting?
 
Also in Matt 19:16,17  is states "And, Behold one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him. Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God; but If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

THe Last book of the bible talks about keeping the commandments.
Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” Revelation 14:12, “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.”

When and how the change from Saturday to Sunday occured?

Jesus did not change the Sabbath.
Matt 5:17-19: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, will all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be call great in the kingdom of heaven. "

 Also in Matt 19:16,17  is states "And, Behold one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him. Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God; but If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

THe bible predicts that their would be an attempt by man to change the law.

Daniel 7:25: "He shall speak words against the Most High , and shall wear out the saints of the Most High; and shall think to change the times and the law."

Man instituted the change not God.

Early Christians worshiped on Saturday. "The primitive Christians had a  great veneration for the Sabbath, and spent the Day in Devotion and Sermons. And tis not to be doubted but they derived this pratice from the apostles themselves." (Mr Morer , Clergyman of church of England, "A discourse in six dialogues on the Name, Notion, and Observation of the Lord's Day, pg 189")

Socrates, the  fifth century church historian says almost all the churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath of ever week, yet the Christians of Alexandra and at Rome, on account of ancient tradition have ceased to do this" (Ecclesiastical History, book 5, chapter 22 in A Select Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, 2d.series, vol2 pg 32)

Sunday worship started in Rome and spread throughout.
The earliest recognition of Sunday worship  by law was made in 321 A.D by the constitution of Constantine (Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th ed,art."Sunday").
The constitution states "On the venerable Day Of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed." (History of the Christian Church  by Phillip Scaff 1902 vol 3, pg 380)

Sunday worship was carried over from the Catholic church to protestant churches. According to Lucius Ferrraris, Prompta Billiotheca, "PaPa" article 2 the pope can modify divine law because his power is not of man but is of God.

This quote is taken from "The History of the Christian church" by N. Summerbell 1873 pg 415: "It [the Roman Catholic Church] reversed the fourth commandment by doing away with the Sabbath of God's word, and instituting Sunday as a holiday".

The Catechismus Romanus of 1867 published by the Vatican Press also states: "It pleased the church of God, that the religious celebration of the Sabbath day should be transfered the the Lord's Day"

Another acknoledgement of the change is in the "Manuel of Christian Doctrine" by Daniel Ferris 1916 pg 67:
"Ques-How prove you that the church hath power  to command feasts and holydays?" Answ-By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of ; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feast commanded by the church."

The catholic church also affirms that Saturday is the Sabbath. The converts catechism of catholic church by Peter Geiermann (1946 ed) pg 50 states that Saturday is the Sabbath but they observe Sunday instead of Saturday because "the catholic church  transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday".This was published with the blessing of Pope Pius X.

The Catholic church also acknowledges that their is no command in the bible for the sanctification of Sunday. Things Catholics Are Asked about  by Martin J. Scott. (1927 ed) pg 136 States "Nowhere in the bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday.  The fact is that the Church was in existence for several centuries before the bible was given to the world. The Church made the Bible, the Bible did not make the Church. Now the church....instituted by God's Authority. Sunday is the day of worship.  This same divine authority, taught the doctrine of Purgatory long before the Bible was made.  We have, thefore, the same authority for Purgatory as we have for Sunday."  

Catholic church has this to say about Protestants worshipping on Sunday: "for ages all christian nations looked to the catholic church, and, as we have seen, the various states enforced by law her ordinances as to worship and cessation of Labor on Sunday. Protestantism, in discarding the authority of the church, has no good reason for its Sunday theory, and ought logically, to keep Saturday as the Sabbath" (The American Catholic Quarterly Review, january 1883 pg 152)

"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men" Matthew 4:10

Since Sunday worship is clearly santified by man not God, SDA's choose to follow the biblical command to observe the 7th day Sabbath.

I can't even imagine why you might quote me,   :)  but since you did; I didn't happen to state that the SDAs "pick and choose" their laws. I responded to a poster who had misquoted a verse and so I posted the verse in full, along the verses preceding to show context.

Secondly, the "negative connotations" which I call "unhappy references" are just that. Good things as well as bad things happened on what was considered the sabbath; and I meant nothing more than that. I'm sorry if you felt I did.


Somehow, I don't think my God has a problem with this, or if He has, He hasn't hit me with it yet.

peace
Gracey

????  Not leaving the house when you're on your period, and women not talking in church, and folks running around making women cover their heads, GET A LIFE!!!!

Get an eternal Life.  It is for freedom that Christ has set us free!  Freedom from what?  Idiots that care about what's in and around their body are included in what we are freed from.  How about loving your neighbor enough to not be concerned about whether she's having her period when she leaves her house.  Hypocrits like the Pharasees worried about this stupid stuff.  Now their burning in hell too.   8)

 ;D

"As a Baptist we "worship God" on the "First" day of the week (as did the early churches after Christ's resurrection)... they met on the first day of the week."

The bible relates many instances of the early Christians coming together or meeting "daily".

Ollie

Didn't Paul tell us to meet on the first day of the week?

 ;D  Jesus says that God made the Sabboth for man, not man for the Sabboth.  God gives us the Sabboth so we can REST not so we can make a big chore out of keeping the Sabboth.  Keep the Saboth Holy, means keeping that day SEPARATE and APART for it's own purpose.  We KNOW when we're coming up on the Saboth and we KNOW we get to rest and hang out and worship and do all the other stuff that isn't concerned with the rat race and the daily grind.  

Did anyone ever remember the story about How Jesus' desciples were eating grain on the Sabboth and the Pharasees had something to say about it and then Jesus told them they were full of crap?

Did anyone ever remember Jesus healing on the Sabboth?  

Did anyone ever remember that Jesus said if a sheep fell in a well we should go get it on the Sabboth?

Did anyone ever remember that Paul said EVEN if an angel in White came and taught another gospel you should not believe it.  Folks believe in Ellen White's writings because they're so full of detail and that's like if an angel in White came along and taught you another gospel that was full of details.  Does it get to replace the Freedom in Christ??????????????

NOOOTTT  It doesn't.  The Seventh Day Adv.  take away the Freedom in Christ that the true gospel gives to us.  Hence, it's another gospel.  And picking out one little law out of the ten and wrapping it around a whole bunch of rules is not what gets folks into a love relationship with the Lord and Savior Jesus.  

Satan tells One Million truths just to get in one little lie.  Satan will sit around and tell all kinds of truths, if he can just cloud your judgement about the things that are important.  Freedom, Justice, Mercy, Loving God and Loving your neighbor.  The Sabboth was created for us to rest on and in our rest we can visit with our Lord and have a relationship with Him.  The Saboth Day is not more important than Freedom, Justice, Mercy, Loving God and Loving your neighbor

Peace

Let us not forget that doing good on the Sabbath is a good thing. Jesus taught us this by healing on the Sabbath, etc..
Since we are on the topic of Jesus’ actions, does anyone remember Jesus going to the synagogue on the Sabbath (Seventh day)? (Mark 6:2)  ;)

“And picking out one little law out of the ten and wrapping it around a whole bunch of rules is not what gets folks into a love relationship with the Lord and Savior Jesus.”

Firstly, it because of our love for Christ and fellow man that we keep the 10 commandments. Jesus said "If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15.

People seem to think that because we keep all 10 instead of 9 we are a bunch of legalists. Let us not mistake legalism for obedience. Jesus had to deal with the cold formalism of the Pharisees over and over again. And because He so thoroughly condemned the program of salvation by works, many have hastily assumed that He considered obedience unimportant. Now we need to see the beautiful balance in Christ's doctrine of faith and works. He taught that obeying in order to be saved is the worst kind of legalism, but obeying because we are saved is the acid test of a true religious experience. Obedience follows true faith just as surely as day follows night. Never forget that a legalist is one who believes that he can be saved by his works. The person who keeps the commandments because he doesn't want to displease the God he loves is not a legalist at all. There is nothing

Secondly “picking out one little law” is a big deal because if you break one you are guilty of all (James).

Finally I would like you to explain your term "Freedom in Christ". Thanks

We love the Lord just as much as you do. We are not a cult.

So which of the 10 Commandments prevents an SDA from eating pork?

Do the Jews recognize Jesus as the savior?
I put this post on another thread, I am going to repeat it.
The Sabbath day was changed, by God.
Unfortunately our translations of the Greek usually doesn’t show this. You have to look AT the Greek.
Young’s Literal Translation and Green’s Literal Translations are the only translations I know of that get this right.
Compare the King James, (and others), with Young’s.

Matthew 28:1  In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.  (KJV)
 
Matthew 28:1 ¶ And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

Strong’s Concordance doesn’t even do this correctly. Strong’s records ‘sabbath’ and ‘day of the week’ as coming from the word ‘sabbaton’. It is actually a derivative of the word sabbaton, ‘sabbatwn’. The ‘wn’ on the end marks it as a plural word.
Here’s how to check it out yourself.
Go to  http://www.olivetree.com/bible/index.html
In the left column click Greek NT.  
Next pick “Interlinear Greek/English New Testament from 1894”.
Under search type Sabbath. I got 55 entries. You’ll notice that different Greek words are given the same Strong’s number (4521).
Go down to Mathew 28:1. Highlight the Geek text that is used as sabbath, and copy it. Then paste the Greek word into the search. When you paste the Greek it will come out as sabbatwn.
This will show you everywhere that Greek word appears in the new testament. You will get 11 entries.
Everything in the bible is important, when it is repeated God is emphasizing it. Three times and it shouldn’t be ignored. The Lords birth only appears in three of the gospels.
This change in the sabbath was so important that God repeated it in ALL FOUR OF THE GOSPELS!
From the YLT:

Matthew 28:1 ¶ And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

Mark 16:1 ¶ And the sabbath having past, Mary the Magdalene, and Mary of James, and Salome, bought spices, that having come, they may anoint him,
Mark 16:2  and early in the morning of the first of the sabbaths, , they come unto the sepulchre, at the rising of the sun,

Luke 23:56  and having turned back, they made ready spices and ointments, and on the sabbath, indeed, they rested, according to the command.
Luke 24:1 ¶ And on the first of the sabbaths, , at early dawn, they came to the tomb, bearing the spices they made ready, and certain others with them,

John 20:1 ¶ And on the first of the sabbaths, , Mary the Magdalene doth come early (there being yet darkness) to the tomb, and she seeth the stone having been taken away out of the tomb,

The sabbath pointed to the fact that there was nothing that we could contribute to our salvation. There is no work that man could do.
If you are going to follow the 7th day sabbath, you had better follow it completely. The sabbath breaker just picked up a few sticks, God said stone him to death.

Numbers 15:32  And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
Numbers 15:33  And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
Numbers 15:34  And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
Numbers 15:35  And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
Numbers 15:36  And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

In fact you had better follow all the ceremonial laws. The 7th day sabbath like the new moons and other ceremonial laws were shadows pointing to Christ.

Colossians 2:16 ¶  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Colossians 2:17  Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Once He went to the cross they were fulfilled and no longer are observed. He did not destroy the law He fulfilled it.

Matthew 5:17  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

The 7th day sabbath was a day of rest pointing to Christ. The 1st day sabbath is a day of work, working for God.
It is the day God began the creation, it is the day Jesus rose from the grave. We should be devoting this new sabbath to working for God. Visit the sick and the elderly, worship, teach your children, pray, read the bible, etc.
There are jobs that are necessary, but a Christian should at least try not to work at a job that is not necessary on the sabbath.
We certainly shouldn’t spend the day watching the Super Bowl, going to see the latest undead movie, or drinking with our buddies.
http://www.biblestudy.org/godsrest/sunday-how-began.html
This is not true. The SDA scholar Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi grew up as a Seventh-day Adventist in Rome, Italy. He did his dissertation on this subject. In his research he found much earlier references to Sunday keeping. It has a decidedly strong SDA viewpoint, I only present it because he is an SDA source that refutes SDA belief.
“The earliest explicit references to Sunday keeping are found in the writings of Barnabas (about 135 A.D.) and Justin Martyr (about 150 A.D.).”
These are the earliest references, it does not mean that is when it started. Sunday keeping would have begun earlier.

Now Ellen White is another story.
As founder of their church the SDA have given Ellen authority.

1 Timothy 2:12  But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

This is a commandment of God. The SDA have broken this commandment. She was far from silent.
The SDA Church believes Ellen G. White has new information even though it is easy to show God did not give her new information. If it was from God it would be accurate.
She can easily be shown to be a false prophet.
Ellen on earthquakes:
Mrs. White describes the cause of earthquakes: "At this time immense forests were buried. These have since been changed to coal, forming the extensive coal beds that now exist, and also yielding large quantities of oil. The coal and oil frequently ignite and burn beneath the surface of the earth. Thus rocks are heated, limestone is burned, and iron ore melted. The action of the water upon the lime adds fury to the intense heat, and causes
earthquakes, volcanoes, and fiery issues. As the fire and water come in contact with ledges of rock and ore, there are heavy explosions underground, which sound like muffled thunder. The air is hot and suffocating. Volcanic eruptions follow; and these often failing to give sufficient vent to the heated elements, the earth itself is convulsed, the ground heaves and swells like the waves of the sea, great fissures appear, and sometimes cities, villages, and burning mountains are swallowed up." (Patriarchs and Prophets, p.108).

*I hope I don’t have to explain where earthquakes really come from. VOLCANOES are caused by coal burning under the earth!!!!!!!!!!!! WACKO!!!!!!!!!!

Ellen on tea:
"The indulgence of... tea, coffee, tobacco, or liquor, is intemperance, and is at war with the laws of life and health. By using these forbidden articles a condition of things is created in the system which the Creator never designed. This indulgence in any of the members of the human family is sin!" (Evangelism, p. 266, written in 1899).
"Tea and coffee drinking is a sin, an injurious indulgence, which like other evils, injures the soul." (Counsels on Diet and Foods, p. 425, written in 1896).

*Obviously false, tea is healthy. In fact it is GOOD FOR YOU! It helps fight cancer.
Black tea is beneficial, Green tea is better, and White tea is best.

And one of the founding reasons for the SDA is Ellen’s vision concerning the sabbath.
Ellen on the sabbath:
“I saw that God had not changed the Sabbath, for He never changes. But the pope had changed it from the seventh to the first day of the week; for he was to change times and laws.” (Early Writings, p. 32)

*Dr. Bacchiocchi showed her vision to be false as noted in my previous post.

Ellen was told by GOD to tell all the women to wear their dresses bellow their ankles. When Ellen told her people this, they were outraged. So, she went back to GOD (supposedly) and GOD told HE changed HIS mind, they can wear their dresses where they like. That is not GOD’S character. She is just a “FALSE PROPHETESS!”

I believe that the seventh Day adventist church is founded on bitterness :'(

I don't know if bitterness was the foundation.
Ellen was struck in the head, by a rock, at age 9 and spent 3 weeks unconscious.
Most likely she was brain damaged.  ???
The rock was thrown by a fellow student so I suppose there could be some bitterness involved.
Especially since her formal education ended at this point.
I wonder if from this point on she only worked to help her father make hats?
That could make a child bitter also.

  I am a   7th day adventist  and  they  are  NOT  a  cult.  They are a  religion that is practiced in a  church,  just  like  catholicism.   They  serve  God  just like you,  my  friend.   They  are  not a  cult.  Cults  are  made to  elevate  the individual  man or woman in status and power over others.  Churches  worship  the  Lord  of  Hosts.   peace.

I am not too sure Catholicism isn’t a cult also. The line between what is or is not a cult is fuzzy.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
From dictionary.com:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=cult
---
A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
---
n 1: adherents of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/aff_termdefambiguity.htm
Rutgers University professor Benjamin Zablocki (1997) says that sociologists often distinguish "cult" from "church," "sect," and "denomination." Cults are innovative, fervent groups. If they become accepted into the mainstream, cults, in his view, lose their fervor and become more organized and integrated into the community; they become churches. When people within churches become dissatisfied and break off into fervent splinter groups, the new groups are called sects. As sects become more stolid and integrated into the community, they become denominations. Zablocki defines a cult as "an ideological organization held together by charismatic relationships and demanding total commitment." According to Zablocki, cults are at high risk of becoming abusive to members, in part because members' adulation of charismatic leaders contributes to their becoming corrupted by the power they seek and are accorded.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
True the Pope is an authoritative figure, so was Ellen White.
True both are false prophets.
ELLEN WHITE WAS ELEVATED IN STATUS AND POWER.
As founder of their church the SDA have given Ellen authority.

1 Timothy 2:12  But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1 Timothy 2:12  But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.


Checkmate!

Just another C - U - L - T

How come none of the SDAs have answered my question about pork?

Trev said:

So I asked which of the 10 Commandments prevents one from eating pork?
Still waiting for my answer.

1 Timothy 2:12  But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

[/color]

 ;D

Candice,

1 Timothy 2:12  But <de> I suffer <epitrepo> not <ouk> a woman <gune> to teach <didasko> , nor <oude> to usurp authority <authenteo> over the man <aner>, but <alla> to be <einai> in <en> silence <hesuchia>.

de
Pronounce deh

but 1237, and 934, now 166, then 132, also 18, yet 16, yea 13, so 13, moreover 13, nevertheless 11, for 4, even 3, misc 10, not tr 300;

1) but, moreover, and,  etc.
---
epitrepo
Pronounce ep-ee-trep’-o

suffer 10, permit 4, give leave 2, give liberty 1, give license 1, let 1

1) to turn to, transfer, commit, instruct
2) to permit, allow, give leave
---
ouk
Pronounce ook

not 1210, no 147, cannot + 1410 57, misc 123

1) no, not; in direct questions expecting an affirmative answer

a primary word, the absolute negative [cf Strong’s #3361] adverb
…
3361 me  
Pronounce may

a primary particle of qualified negation (whereas ouk expresses an absolute denial); ; particle
---
gune
Pronounce goo-nay’

women 129, wife 92

1) a woman of any age, whether a virgin, or married, or a widow
2) a wife
2a) of a betrothed woman
---
didasko
Pronounce did-as’-ko

a prolonged (causative) form of a primary verb dao (to learn)

teach 93, taught + en(was 267, were 115, had been 12, had 11) 4

1) to teach
1a) to hold discourse with others in order to instruct them, deliver didactic discourses
1b) to be a teacher
1c) to discharge the office of a teacher, conduct one’s self as a teacher
2) to teach one
2a) to impart instruction
2b) instill doctrine into one
2c) the thing taught or enjoined
2d) to explain or expound a thing
2f) to teach one something
---
oude
Pronounce oo-deh’

from ouk and de; ; conj  

neither 69, nor 31, not 10, no not 8, not so much as 2, then not 1, not tr 1, misc 14

1) but not, neither, nor, not even
---
authenteo
Pronounce ow-then-teh’-o

from a compound of autos (him 1952, his 1084, their 318, he 253, her 242, they 121, same 80, himself 58, misc 1679) and an obsolete hentes (a worker); ; v  

usurp authority over 1

1) one who with his own hands kills another or himself
2) one who acts on his own authority, autocratic
3) an absolute master
4) to govern, exercise dominion over one
---
aner
Pronounce an’-ayr

a primary word

man 156, husband 50, sir 6, fellow 1, not tr 2

1) with reference to sex
1a) of a male
1b) of a husband
1c) of a betrothed or future husband
2) with reference to age, and to distinguish an adult man from a boy
3) any male
4) used generically of a group of both men and women
---
alla
Pronounce al-lah’

but 573, yea 15, yet 11, nevertheless 10, howbeit 9, nay 4, therefore 3, save 2, not tr 2, misc 8

1) but
1a) nevertheless, notwithstanding
1b) an objection
1c) an exception
1d) a restriction
1e) nay, rather, yea, moreover
1f) forms a transition to the cardinal matter
---
einai
Pronounce i’-nahee

to be 33, be 28, was 15, is 14, am 7, are 6, were 4, not tr 11, misc 8

1) to be, to exist, to happen, to be present
---
en
in 1902, by 163, with 140, among 117, at 113, on 62, through 39, misc 265
---
hesuchia
Pronounce hay-soo-khee’-ah

silent 3, quietness 1

1) quietness
1a) description of the life of one who stays at home doing his own work, and does not officiously meddle with the affairs of others
2) silence
-----------------------------------------------
Did you have a particular question?

The  7th day adventist  are a  church,  not a   cult.  peace.

All sorts of people claim to be a church.
Church Universal and Triumphant:
AKA -- The Summit Lighthouse
The followers of Elizabeth Prophet
AKA -- Guru Ma
Makes the same claim, I lost a friend to this cult some 30 years ago.
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/cut.html
Like you he can’t see that they are false.
The foundation of the SDA is sand.
Ellen was a false prophet. A blind leader.
Do you believe coal and oil burning under the earth is the cause of earthquakes and volcanoes?
Do you agree with your founder? She is your FOUNDATION.

I don't know much about the SDA.  I was on a road trip down in Georgia and I read several signs which said the mark of the beast is working on the sabbath.  I thought it was a joke but then my wife said that is a belief of the SDA.  Is that true?   ???

I had also worked with someone who was a SDA and she told me that she didn't support unions because they were a cult.   :-\  Does anyone know anything about this?  

"So I asked which of the 10 Commandments prevents one from eating pork?
Still waiting for my answer."

No one claimed it was a commandment, however it is found many times in the bible.  It is for health reasons.

Please see this site:  http://www.tagnet.org/thsda/articles/hall/meat.html

Adventists base EVERY belief on the bible, and not just verses here and there taken out of context.  

As far as judging adventist based just on some SDA's you know or heard of, that is highly judmental and shows ignorance.  How many old Babtist believes could we judge them on? Get real, the Adventists do not believe those things.

I don't bash the Babtists or Catholic's because they believe in eternel hell so why should the Adventist be bashed because they believe in fallowing God's law out of love for him?

If you want to follow the Pope, continue to worship on Sunday, as even the Catholic's admit changing the day of worship to Sunday.  If the day of worship doesn't matter, why would it be the fourth commandment, before even murder and stealing?  I don't know about you all, but I would rather follow all of the commandments of God, than to follow the law of man.

I don't want to sound hostile but getting bashed for my belief's in Jesus and the word of God gets me a little worked up.  :)

The link you posted has NOTHING to do with Adventists.  You know nothing about SDA's yet blindly claim them to be a cult and have the nerve to give a link to some other cult.  Talk about false!

BTW, I have been an SDA for 5 years and have never been taught by the writing's of Ellen White.  Her writings are not tught, the Bible is taught.  Ellen White may have not been 100% correct (what human is?) but did have many correct teachings on health related issues (among other things).  She never claimed to be a propeht.  She was one of the origional leaders but she was never worshiped and nobody in the SDA church would accept any human's teaching over the Bible.  
Would I be safe in saying your religion is false because you read books written by other Christians that teach you things that are not illustrated in depth in the Bible?  I guess I could if I just blindly attached a link to some cult.

Even in this Southern Babtist site, the SDA's are not defined as a cult.  From the page you linked:
 "Thus the IWD does not designate the SDA as a cult However, the IWD designates the SDA as a Christian sect because they have a number of distinctive doctrines not in accord with historic Christian faith. This Belief Bulletin highlights those doctrines and provides biblical responses."

What ever.  I am not a Southern Babtist anyway.

Here is the Webster definition of a cult:

"Main Entry: cult
Pronunciation: 'k&lt
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate -- more at WHEEL
1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion"

Based on the the first definition, I guess all Christian denominations can be classified as cults.

Here is the definition of the occult:

"Main Entry: 3occult
Pronunciation: same as 2
Function: noun
: matters regarded as involving the action or influence of supernatural or supernormal powers or some secret knowledge of them -- used with the"

Take one look at SDA's (http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html) and you will find no cult, rather a Bible loving people waiting for the great day that Jesus returns.

Peace!

 :)

I don't know about the union thing.
However, I've watched enough of 3ABN (An SDA channel) to know that they do believe those who worship on Sunday are following satan.

I know that my SDA mom keeps praying that I'll see the error of my ways and stop going to a church that worships on Sundays and start going to the right church.
Then again, my Catholic mother-in-law keeps praying that me and my ex-Cath husband will see the error of our ways and start attending a Cath church.

Left Coast:
This browser dosn't support greek text.  So, I had to convert the test to symbols.  If you copy this text into a word editor and change the Font to "Times New Roman" it will convert it back into Greek for you. I figure it doesn't matter since all of us has to examine other languages closely.

Below are a list of a few greek words that refer to women.  The word that you're using doesn't encompass ALL women. ïõó. ãõíÞ, (åíÞëéêç) ãõíáßêá: men, women and children Üíäñåò, ãõíáßêåò êáé ðáéäéÜ # (ùò ðñïóöþíçóç êáé õðïôéìçôéêÜ:) êõñÜ: ãõíáéêåßï öýëï, "ç ãõíáßêá": woman plays an important role in.. ç ãõíáßêá ðáßæåé óðïõäáßï ñüëï óå.. # (ìå ïñéóôéêü Üñèñï:) ç ãõíáéêåßá öýóç, "ç ãõíáßêá": newborn babies bring out the woman in her ôá íåïãÝííçôá îõðíïýí ìÝóá ôçò ôç öýóç ôçò ãõíáßêáò # ìôö. óõìâßá, óýæõãïò: my woman refused to.. ç ãõíáßêá ìïõ áñíÞèçêå íá.. # (áðáñ÷.) èåñáðáéíßäá # ÖÑ. woman doctor ãõíáßêá ãéáôñüò, êí. ãéáôñßíá § woman-hater ìéóïãýíçò § woman of easy virtue ãõíáßêá åëåõèåñßùí çèþí § woman suffrage ãõíáéêåßá øÞöïò § daily woman ðáñáäïõëåýôñá § deliver a woman îåãåííþ ãõíáßêá § make an honest woman (out) of.. áðïêáèéóôþ ôçí ôéìÞ ôçò.. § old woman ãåñüíôéóóá, ãñéÜ § there's a woman at the bottom of it! áíáæçôÞóáôå ôçí ãõíáßêá! § woman's man éä. áâñüò, åõãåíéêüò (ðñïò ôéò êõñßåò) § woman's reason éä. åôóéèåëéóìüò § women are necessary evils! ç ãõíáßêá åßíáé áíáãêáßï êáêü! § women's rights äéêáéþìáôá ôçò ãõíáßêáò § my good woman! ÷ñéóôéáíÞ ìïõ! § scarlet woman 1. ìïé÷áëßäá > 2. ðüñíç
2 woman doctor ãéáôñßíá # ãõíáßêá ãéáôñüò # ãõíáßêá äïêôïñÝóóá. Äåßôå åðßóçò: doctor - woman
3 woman hater ìéóïãýíçò. Äåßôå åðßóçò: hater
4 woman of easy virtue ãõíáßêá áìöéâüëùí Þ åëåõèåñßùí çèþí # ãõíáßêá åëåõèåñßùí çèþí. Äåßôå åðßóçò: virtue - woman
5 woman of virtue åíÜñåôç ãõíáßêá. Äåßôå åðßóçò: virtue
6 woman plays an important role in.. ç ãõíáßêá ðáßæåé óðïõäáßï ñüëï óå... Äåßôå åðßóçò: woman
7 woman suffrage ãõíáéêåßá øÞöïò. Äåßôå åðßóçò: woman
8 woman with a past ãõíáßêá ìå ðáñåëèüí. Äåßôå åðßóçò: past
9 woman's man áâñüò # åõãåíéêüò (ðñïò ôéò êõñßåò). Äåßôå åðßóçò: woman
10 woman's reason ãõíáéêåßá ëïãéêÞ # åôóéèåëéóìüò. Äåßôå åðßóçò: reason - woman

The scripture you're quoting about women teaching in church refers to a certain kind of woman.   It actually is only referring to certain women and the intonation is that the reference is to women that have a certain type of authority over men, a sexual type of authority--women aren't supposed to have sexual authority over men and use that to teach in church--.  Those women aren't allowed to teach in those men that they have the authority over in that certain church. This is NOT an all encompasing scritpture and it certainly doesn't refer to ALL woman or ALL churches.  It's actually talking about these certain types of instances when this certain chemistry is going on.  Unless you're saying that all women are prostitutes you can't say that all women can't teach in church.  Or the intonation is that if the men are going to church just to see the women there--duh!  It happens.  Suppose you're a man that wants to sit around and look at women and there's women in church teaching and those are the ones you want to be looking at.  Are you going to be learning anything about the Lord by going there?  No.  So, that's sort of what that scripture is referring to.

My font is Times New Roman but I don't understand your point.
I think symbol must change it entirely. I don’t see any words that resemble  the Greek word, ‘gunaiki’, that is used here.
It may help just to leave it in Times New Roman surround it with brackets [Times New Roman ] then I can change it to symbol.
You will also see the word ‘gunh’, it appears 73 times in the bible, including:

1 Timothy 2:11  Let the woman <gunh> learn in silence with all subjection.

Another word for woman that appears in these verses is ‘gunaikoV’. I could only search it out by dropping the V off the end. gunaiko appears 23 times.

1 Corinthians 7:1  Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman <gunaiko>.

This seems to be talking about a woman and sex.
A third word translated woman is ‘gunaika’

Matthew 5:28  But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman <gunaika> to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

This seems to fit more directly with the idea “men are going to church just to see the women there--duh!”
1 Timothy 2:12 does not have the word ‘gunaika’.
I underlined every place gunaiki  appears. 15 times in the bible. I don’t see how these verses support your definition, note Matthew 26:10, Luke 2:5, ETC.
Often it is translated wife, Ellen was married.

Matthew 19:5  And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Matthew 26:10  When Jesus understood it, he said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me.

Luke 2:5  To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.

John 4:42  And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
 
Acts 5:1  But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

Acts 24:24  And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.

1 Corinthians 7:3  Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife <gunh> unto the husband.

1 Corinthians 7:14  For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife <gunh> is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

1 Corinthians 7:27  Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife <gunaikoV>? seek not a wife <gunaika>.

1 Corinthians 7:33  But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.

1 Corinthians 11:6  For if the woman <gunh> be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

1 Timothy 2:12  But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Revelation 12:14  And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Revelation 12:16  And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Revelation 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

We also have additional verses commanding women, to be silent in the church.

1 Corinthians 14:34 ¶  Let your women <gunaikeV> keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1 Corinthians 14:35  And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women <gunaixin> to speak in the church.

Now we have the word ‘gunaikeV’ I also had to drop the V on this one.
It appears 16 times. Which woman is it in your explanations?
Lastly we have ‘gunaixin’, 8 times. What is the meaning of this?


I did my search at.
http://www.olivetree.com/bible/index.html
On the left hand side under versions select Greek NT.
Then I picked Interlinear Greek/English New Testament.
Then have fun!

If you really are interested in learning more about the Sabbath, this is a great site.  http://www.sabbathtruth.com

This site explains the mark of the beast as well.

 :)

If Christ cooked a fish BBQ for His Apostles after His crucifixion. Why do you Adventists not eat fish?
Hmmm?

Hi Leftcoast,

It's most likely because you don't understand how the Greek language functions.  Words have flavor and develop a meaning by the surrounnding words in Greek.  If what you are looking at are not actually the greek symbols themselves, but words that are translated from the greek symbols into words that use our own alphabete, then what you have is not the original greek.  It's already been halfway translated for you probably by someone biased against women teaching in the church.

What you want to do is crack out the REAL Greek symbols and see how the word that functions for women has HUNDREDS of functions.  There were probably thousands Each is VERY specific in its reference with utmost specific purpose.  

English is almost a worthless language it its written form and that is why we use emoticons so much.  In greek you didn't even need periods or question marks or exclamation points because the text itself was so descriptive that it wasn't necesary.

I think what you have is a translation that chops all those precise words and turns them into unprecise words and throws everything into categories like the English language does --women--all encompassing.  Greek really doesn't do that.  Someone skilled in the English language that doesn't know any better would assume this is just as correct.  It's really not.

I would love to be an expert on the Greek language, but I'm really not.  All you really have to do is notice that women do teach all over the Bible.  Notice that, and that should be evidence enough--that including a wee bit of study--that "authority" over men specifically mentioned in that particular scripture does have some sort of reference to some kind of sexual chemistry--this gets chopped out though a lot.  The words as they work together are implying something that should not be going on in church, and it's not saying that there cannot be female sunday school teachers.  You can take that to the bank.   ;)

Love and peace

Candice

Candice
I do understand how the Greek works.
I realize there are many words that translators have translated woman. I gave you several.
Many times they also translate the same word different ways -- gunaiki = woman and wife.
You tried to present the idea that the word that was translated woman in 1 Timothy 2:12 was referring to a certain kind of woman.
To find truth, more important than needing how to understand how Greek works, you must understand how the bible works.
To rightly divide the truth we must compare scripture with scripture.
I gave you several examples where your exact Greek word was used in the scripture.
I do not see any real support for your definition.
It is the word ‘gunaiki’.
Compare scripture with scripture.

1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman <gunaiki> to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Luke 2:5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife <gunaiki>, being great with child.

How can you say this same Greek word fits your definition?
Can women teach? Yes.
Children and other women can be, and should be, taught by a woman.

Titus 2:3  The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Titus 2:4  That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

Timothy was taught by his mother and grandmother. Women are to be in control of the home. There are many wonderful and honorable roles for women.
All of us are to witness, that is the meaning of prophesying. This is different than speaking out loud in the church, or having authority.
The Samaritan woman told others about Jesus.

I showed you by comparing scripture with scripture. The same Greek word does not fit your definition.
The idea that the translators were a bunch of sexists is weak.
You present a feminist argument, there are many women that are knowledgeable about the scripture, but pride leads them to think that makes them qualified to teach men in the church.
I believe I could do a better job than several pastors I have seen, I know my abilities. I am not afraid to speak in front of crowds, I love the Lord. I should consider being a pastor, or a deacon -- problem is I am not qualified.

1 Timothy 3:2  A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1 Timothy 3:12  Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
Titus 1:6  If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

I am divorced.
I have to accept the roles God will allow me to have.
The word translated ‘usurp authority’ is ‘authenteo’. This is the only place in the bible it appears. I also am not a Greek Scholar, so I do rely on the definition of experts such as
Mr. Strong for the definition.

1) one who with his own hands kills another or himself
2) one who acts on his own authority, autocratic
3) an absolute master
4) to govern, exercise dominion over one
---
Do you have an alternative expert that can explain it differently?
---
Young’s concordance likens it to:

To use ones own armour.  
---  
There are two literal translation I know of.
Young’s does throw an interesting twist on it:

(Young) 1 Timothy 2:12 and a woman I do not suffer to teach, nor to rule a husband, but to be in quietness,

I believe Jay Green wrote the original interlinear bible. He also wrote the Modern King James and a Literal version.

(LITV (Green)) 1 Timothy 2:12 And I do not allow a woman to teach nor to exercise authority over a man, but to be in silence.
---
If all we had was 1 Timothy 2:12 we would not have enough evidence to make a decision. There is more.
1 Timothy 3:2  A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife…
The word bishop means overseer, the person in charge. A woman can not be the husband of one wife.

The strongest argument for the women to be silent is:

1 Corinthians 14:34 ¶ Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1 Corinthians 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
----------
(Young) 1 Corinthians 14:34 Your women in the assemblies let them be silent, for it hath not been permitted to them to speak, but to be subject, as also the law saith;
(Young) 1 Corinthians 14:35 and if they wish to learn anything, at home their own husbands let them question, for it is a shame to women to speak in an assembly.
----------
(LITV (Green)) 1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women be silent in the assemblies, for it is not allowed to them to speak, but to be in subjection, as also the Law says.
(LITV (Green)) 1 Corinthians 14:35 But if they desire to learn anything, let them question their husbands at home; for it is a shame for a woman to speak in an assembly.

This is a different word for woman. If you put all the scripture together, women are to be silent in the church.
They can teach children, and older women should be teaching the younger.
Men and women, both, are to witness to others. We can all teach outside of the church. But we need to be careful not to create our own assembly.
Ellen created her own assembly.  ;)

Don't know what your source is, but a lot of Adventists do eat fish, along with other meat (the clean meats, not pork).  Being a vegitarian is just a personal decision a lot of SDA's make.  

Here is a good link:

http://en.bibleinfo.com/topics/topic.html?id=63

What is wrong with pork?
Would you eat catfish, lobster?
Ostrich?

Please explain what is clean and what isn't.
Some of the beef produced today is not nearly as clean as some of the pork.

The only two meats that I know for sure SDAs don't eat are pork and shrimp. For the life of me, I can't figure out why.

Ellen White was a herbivore (vegetarian Haha).
She was one because of religious reasons and not choice.
Even if they chose to be by choice, how come there are so many SDA vegies? Because they do it for religious reasons.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Hi Leftcoast!

Oh, you're SOOOOO busted.   ;D  That scripture you're quoting, "Husband of one wife . . ."  Those words truly actually infinately precisely originally in greek mean OVERSEER OF AT LEAST one HELPER"  And that word "HELPER" has also been the same word as "Holy Spirit"  So, by your methods and understanding of correct translation from Greek to English translation,  ;D you're saying that the Holy Spirit shouldn't teach in church.  That cracks me up you know.

Quit reading the Alphabetical translations you're looking at OR leave room for mistranslation.  

For the record, I have been a professional translator, Interpretor, and Bi-lingual secretary and I know precisely how things get messed up in translation.  This is the case in your case of "husband of one wife"  that's what someone wants it to say, but that's not what was said and not what was intended either.

Peace

Leftcoast,

Does your wife talk too much?  I was just wondering why you were so versed in all the scriptures about women talking, if you had personal problems with the issue.

As for the other scriptures you were  quoting, remember backin that day the men sat on one side of an isle and the women sat on the other side, and of course women weren't allowed to learn to read and write and so they'd be constantly yelling across the isle when they had a question which disrupted the Sunday school classes.

Remember, Christ gave women new freedom.  "neither male nor female", suddenly became the norm among Christians and hey women were allowed to come to learn.  It was new to them.  

Candice

Candice you are confused.
I’ll take the blame I must not have been very clear.

1 Timothy 3:2  A bishop <episkopos> then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

The word ‘bishop’ means overseer. The word ‘husband’ does not mean overseer.
Strong’s isn’t the best, but from Strong’s:

Bishop:
episkopos

1) an overseer
1a) a man charged with the duty of seeing that things to be done by others are done rightly, any curator, guardian or superintendent
1b) the superintendent, elder, or overseer of a Christian church

Husband:
aner
 
1) with reference to sex
1a) of a male
1b) of a husband
1c) of a betrothed or future husband
2) with reference to age, and to distinguish an adult man from a boy
3) any male
4) used generically of a group of both men and women

I am not sure why you said:
Where did you come up with such a wacked out idea?

Hebrews 13:6  So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper <boethos>, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

Boethos only appears in this verse of Hebrews. How does it even resemble any word at all in 1 Timothy 3:2, especially gunaiko which is the word translated wife.
Where do you get this stuff?
Holy Spirit?????????????? HOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????

1 Thessalonians 4:8  He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy <hagios> Spirit <pneuma>.

Holy:
hagios

AV-holy 161, saints 61, Holy One 4, misc 3; 229

1) most holy thing, a saint

Spirit:
pneuma

AV-Spirit 111, (Holy) Ghost 89, Spirit (of God) 13, Spirit (of the Lord) 5, (My) Spirit 3, Spirit (of truth) 3, Spirit (of Christ) 2, human (spirit) 49, (evil) spirit 47, spirit (general) 26, spirit 8, (Jesus’ own) spirit 6, ( Jesus’ own) ghost 2, misc 21; 385

1) the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
1a) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the Holy Spirit)
1b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of Truth)
1c) never referred to as a depersonalised force
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
2a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
2b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
3a) a life giving spirit
3b) a human soul that has left the body
3c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
3c1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
3c2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
4a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
5) a movement of air (a gentle blast)
5a) of the wind, hence the wind itself
5b) breath of nostrils or mouth

HOW CAN ANY OF THESE WORDS COME EVEN CLOSE TO GUNAIKO?
Did you get your information from a woman by chance?

1 Timothy 2:14  And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

If you are a professional then do your homework. Give some evidence that you know what you are talking about.

::)
I am no longer married, my wife moved out and moved in with her boyfriend.
She did talk a lot, I never had a problem with it.
I have had several women for supervisors never had a problem with it.
I work for a married couple now, the wife is more even tempered and better organized than the husband, I have no problem with her telling me what to do.
I am versed in several areas of the scripture, and yet still learning.
Because the bible says marriage is until death do you part, I can not date.
It gives me time to search the scripture.
When the wife moved out, and I discovered her boyfriend I went deep into prayer. It is not easy being alone, I always enjoyed the company of women. Now that I am a Christian I have to do with out.
I have never had any issues with women.
God is the one that has established the roles, why don’t you want to obey God?  ???

2 Timothy 3:6  For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2 Timothy 3:7  Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Candice
I have been bothered as to why you are confused, I want you to understand.
It occurred to me you were thinking someone was attaching words to the Greek words.
What I have been giving you with words like --  hagios -- is the Greek word in an English Font.
Highlight the words, change the font to symbol, now you have the Greek word as it appears in the Greek text.

1 Timothy 3:2  A bishop <episkopon> then must be blameless, the husband <andra> of one wife <gunaikoV>, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Hebrews 13:6  So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper <bohqoV>, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

1 Thessalonians 4:8  He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy <agion> Spirit <pneuma>.

I went to http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm and copied down the Greek text, I feel this is more accurate than Strong’s which I used earlier.
I think the V at the end of gunaiko and  bohqo probably has to do with the tense of the word. If it has some thing to do with the Holy Spirit explain how.
That same V appears in many places such as:

1 Timothy 3:3  Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre <aiscrokerdeiV>; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

I haven’t researched it out in that much depth. You are the first person that has caused me to do this, I only do it because I want you to understand. I like to learn also.
I don’t see any way 1 Timothy 3:2 could fit your definition, help me out here.
Does this help you out at all?

John

I used pork as an example.
What do you mean whats wrong with pork?  Ever heard the term kosher?  

See Leviticus 11 if you are really concerned with clean and unlcean foods.

First of all, Ellen White was not all SDA's.  And you bring up a goid point about choosing to be a vegitarian or not to be one.  It doesn't matter.

I didn't realize you were Jewish.
I'm a Christian.

Colossians 2:14  Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Colossians 2:15  And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Colossians 2:16  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Colossians 2:17  Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

I know the Jews do not recognize Christ but as a Christian I do, therefore the shadows are no longer to be observed.
These things were nailed to the cross.

You only eat Kosher?

Leftcoast,

Men oppressing women is not a God-made institution.  It's a man-made institution.  It has a whole lot to do with the stronger getting advantage of the weaker.

The Mormons of old used to use that "Husband of AT LEAST one wife" interpretation of the Bible as an excuse to practice polygamy.  And sexist pigs use the "Husband of one wife" interpretation to prove that women can't be the leaders of a church because they like to have the house cleaned and supper cooked when they get home.  As a general rule, men like to be waited on hand and foot.  They like it so they're not getting in an uproar about how the Bible has been translated.  

What it all means to me is that you can use anything you want to get your way if someone gives you authority over them in the name of God and they use the Bible to try to make you do what you want them to do.

I would like to point out that even in your translation of the word Husband the last option says it can be either male or female.  Of course the sexist pigs would want to cover that up because they're so busy feeling superior to at least some creature on the earth.

Jesus died for our sins.  Period.  The words "Husband of one wife" don't even mean husband of one wife.  But if you want to use that to keep women from coming to Jesus you can do that if you want.

Let me give you an example of what happens in translation of words.  In the English understanding of plant life, plants die.  There's death among flowers, trees, weeds, grass--we call it death when a plant dies.

In Spanish death among plant life is unheard of and a concept that's clearly and distinctly obsurd capable of creating laughter if you say a plant "Died."  If a plant dies, in the correct tanslation would be "The plant DRIED"  

So even if you have the most sophisticated translator on the planet, you still have to know concepts in languages to get the real meaning of a translation.  You can't just exchange words for words and expect a meaning.

Since it was taught that in the Kingdom of heaven there is neither male nor female, then what you have to do is understand that something must have been intended on the scriptures that you quoted that imply that women have a different status in society then men do.  Or else you undo  Christ's work.  

Now if you want to say something and justify saying it, then using the exchange words for words system can take you places.  But if you are seeking the Truth, maybe you might want to consider Paul would either laugh or become angry at the way his words got mangled.  Of course, there's not been enough men in this world to really want to defend the truth enough to defend what Paul really meant to say.

I assure you, The Good News of the Gospel has been preached at women so they would be submissive in the home and quiet in the church for centuries.  That's not Good News.  And it's not really that much related to what Christ's mission on earth was either.

For Christ's sake, what was Christ's mission?

Focus on what Christ's mission actually was and you'll begin to see the obsurdity in the translations of some of the texts.

Only when you are really focused on Christ and are doing His will will you sit back and say "wow, It is for freedom that Christ set us free, and yet it is for slavery and submission that folks preach the gospel in many cases.  Gee, there really must be an anti-Christ undoing Christ's work".

Helper which was used to describe the Holy Spirit, and that word Helper that was used as Overseer with a helper.  All I know is that I wasn't going about studying to find out if this was true, I wasn't trying to prove anything either way.  Actually, it is with great fear and trembling that I've approached this topic because its so much different then many men.  In my  interest of how words are translated over time I noticed Helper was Holy Spirit and another time that same word Helper was also translated as "wife" and I kept on noting this same thing through out my studies and one day I said, "wow, there's a concept"

Then, I realized that there these paragraphs and chapters were put in the Bible weren't placed there by the original writers and so I stopped stopping at ends of chapters.  What I started doing was reading right through the end of one to the beginning of another and I noticed in this new context lots of stuff takes on new meaning.

Sometimes, this may be hard for you to reach, but do you sometimes that since Eve was called a helper, and wife is also called a helper, it could be referring to a woman, but helper is also referred to as the Holy Spirit who would help us, so that word helper is only getting its sex by people who want to tell women what they can and can't do.  It's not really the truth that's being saught.  That's my understanding of it.

But I don't think my understanding of it is really that important because I don't want to get distracted by the real issues--as in the Greatest commandments.  Love God and Love your neighbor.

Daily I ask the Lord to lead me just enough so I don't waste any time on earth.  And always put people in my path who He is working with that a person like me can be used with.   I'm finding out though, that, there's quite a bit of men in the world that want a slave woman.  They want someone to serve them and wait on them and used their time and energy in expense to their manly persuits.  And they call themselves Christians and the come in the name of the Lord.  So, that's why I'm deciding to come forward with my understanding of what Christ really means for us to do.

Peace

Does submission = oppression?

When we are told to submit to Christ is that oppression?

 ???

WOW, Candice
I don’t know you, so I could be misunderstanding the tone of your post, but it seems to me you might have a few male issues.
I hope not, that would tell me some one has not treated you well and that would be sad. :(
I really don’t have issues with women, I tend to establish close, friendly, relationships with women easier than I do with men.
I am not a sexist, I have been able to take care of myself since I went to college.
That is a very sexist comment. I honestly don’t know of any man that wants to be waited on hand and foot. I am sure they are out there, but I don’t know them.
Maybe it is a regional thing.
I was a bachelor until I was 29 years old. I have always been very capable of taking care of myself. When I got married I had to back off and let her take care of me some. I wanted to cook, but she considered the kitchen her domain.
I even offered to cook a romantic meal, without kids, but she wouldn’t let me. I like to cook, and I believe I am a better cook than her. But I gave it up for her, not because I wanted to be waited on hand and foot.
“sexist pigs use the "Husband of one wife" interpretation”, there is no other interpretation.

From the NIV
1 Timothy 3:2  Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
From the TNIV
1 Timothy 3:2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his
wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

I personally don’t care much for the NIV or the TNIV but not because WOMEN were involved in the translation.
Women such as:
Dr. Karen H. Jobes is associate professor of New Testament at Westmont College in Santa Barbara. She holds a PhD in Biblical Hermeneutics from Westminster Theological Seminary (Philadelphia). Among her publications are Invitation to the Septuagint (with Moisés Silva, Baker, 2000), and the NIV Application Commentary: Esther (Zondervan, 1999). She has been a member of the CBT since 1995.
http://www.tniv.info/story/cbtmembers.php

Why the sexist pig comment?
Why not just accept Gods word, came from God.
Being the husband of one wife rules me out also, because I am divorced. Is that somehow sexist?
 
You say you are a professional translator and interpreter, doesn’t context play an important part. That is unless you are now going to claim God allows women to marry other women.
All sorts of people accept Jesus as their savior, unfortunately few accept Jesus as Lord.
When a person denies Gods commandments, and laws, then they are denying His Lordship.  :(
People really don’t like the Gospel, they desperately want to create their own kind of a gospel.
You keep making these accusations of sexism, but you have given NO support for your stand.  >:(
Maybe it is just your pain, but you seem to be full of hate.
In the kingdom of heaven there is neither male or female because we are ALL the bride of Christ. Women do not have a lower position they have a glorified roll in Gods plan.
We are not in heaven yet. I do hope to see you there.  ;)  
How did you become such an expert to know these words were mangled?
How long have you studied the Greek, or who is your source? Where did you come to your understanding?
If you interpret what do the texts say in those languages? Is it significantly different?

WHERE?
Where have you ever found helper and Holy Spirit coming from the same words?
Where?
I am so sorry for you.  :'(

Candace and Left Coast-
I'm enjoying reading what you have posted in this thread.
I really don't know that it has that much to do with SDAs (yes, I'm aware that Ellen White is a woman and the founder of the SDA religion.)
I have started a thread on women in leadership roles and I would love to hear input from both of you (as well as others) on your thoughts about women's roles in and out of the home and the church.
Thanks!

Yes, Ellen was what started the whole thing.  ;)
I'm not too sure how much time I'll have in the next 2-3 weeks to contribute, I will be out of town on business.  :-\

That's too bad.
I was looking forward to reading your posts on the topic.
I hope you have a blessed and sucessful business trip.
I will pray that your travels will be safe.

I'm not Jewish.  I referred to kosher since you were mocking me.  Here's a widely known fact:  Jesus was Jewish.  I would bet everything I have that Jesus didn't get up in the morning and eat a ham and cheese omlette with a side of bacon.  You think after He rose again, any of that changed?

Anyway, I am NOT judging anyone, and I never will.  It was this post judging SDA's for not eating pork.  What you do is between you and God.

What I choose to do is to try to understand the entire Bible and try to treat my body as a temple.  This means eating right, not smoking, not drinking, etc.  

Some folks will twist scritpure to what ever degree they need to fit their own wishes.

 ***********************************


I live in SDA country. The most wonderfull hospital is just over the mountain from here. When your lying there WAITING what a comfort to have the nurses quitely ask if you would like to pray with them you. To know that the 'bases' of the hospital is trusting God for HIS healing.... The food was the worst ever....I have SDA friends and had some SDA family like all other groups man has developed some  in the group are christian some are not.

The SDA as a whole  is on the edge of cultism, salvation is not in keeping the law, nor is salvation in not keeping the law. Salvation is only  in HIM a free gift .....I have not seen a SDA, or anyone, keep the law as written .

Ex 20:8-10

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
KJV

From sunset friday to sunset saturday one keeping the law will not cause another to labour. We live in a service laden country. If one flips a light switch or 'flushes'  uses their computer etc they are breaking the law as written in verse 10.

Click to hear commentary  on Ellen White

http://www.barbneal.com/wav/ltunes/foghorn/fogleg23.wav (http://www.barbneal.com/wav/ltunes/foghorn/fogleg23.wav)

Hello Left Coast,

I was out of town on the business of giving away all that I own so I can be free to follow the Lord.  I'm afraid my friends will try to lock me up because of it so I didn't really mention the Lord.  It's about the Lord, but it's also about I'm tired of dragging all that stuff around.  The first time I moved I gave up everything because I get so tired of people being slaves to their stuff.  They're slaves to getting stuff and keeping stuff.  I promised myself I would never again collect stuff.  Five years later I have amassed massive amounts of stuff again.  I'm trying to get rid of it.  Sadly, it's in another state so I didn't have time to sell it, my job is here and I took off two days to go take care of it.  Instead, I gave it away in hopes and massive prayers that some good use will be put to it.  Now I'm exhausted.

Anyway, I'm not claiming to be an expert on Greek.  I'm just claiming to know that some translations can be laughable if they are translated word per word.  Especially when the concept that develops out of the translation is laughable.  And even more especially when there's something to be gained by the mis-translation--then it's not so much laughable as much as possibly evil.

I'll just go with laughable.  If a person just went with the translation the way those scriptures translate then it would be boiled down to women must trust in men.  The Bible tells us that Wicked are those who trust in men.  Also, how can you explain the female prophets and the female judges of old if it was against God's will for women to teach.  And how do you explain away the female leaders of churches in Paul's day?  And then when you come to think about it, there are so many interpretations of what "church" actually is.  But if the "church" is the body of Christ, like I believe it to be, then the interpretation of those scriptures is saying that women can't be leaders in the body of Christ and women can't be teachers in the body of Christ.  That's laughable.  Hence, there is evidence that the interpretation is correct EVEN if it is word per word interpretation, the concept is incorrect based on the rest of the Bible.

I really don't want to argue.  I'm just happy to be able to fellowship with fellow beleivers.  I feel utterly sick because I had to spend a whole weekend with folks that don't value the things that I value and feel that my ideas are unaceptable.  At least among Christians we can expect the confession that things should be a certain way.  Even if us Christians don't live up to our ideals, at least we have ideals.  I had to sit and listen to someone tell me that humans are animals and they will follow their animal desires and all that stupid stuff.  I can only take so much of it and that's when I'm glad to be back in the Christian chat room where we argue about petty things--at least they seem to be because the important thing is that Christ died for our sins and we agree on that.

Peace.

Interesting thread. I didn't think SDA's could generate this much talk. I guess I was wrong :)
Jesus is our leader (not Ellen White), and if that classifies us a "cult" then that is fine with me.

We do live in a "service laden country". Many other countries would also fall into this category. But remember God never gives us more than we can bear. It does not matter what the crowd does on the Sabbath. We have a responsibility to do as God commanded.

The Sabbath is about centering our thoughts and actions on God, and I don't see how turning on a light switch or flushing violates that. If God knew that a trivial task such as turning on a light switch would violate the Sabbath, He surely would not have asked us to keep it holy. God would never ask the impossible. One of the reasons I look forward to the Sabbath is because I like the break from normal life. When kept, the Sabbath is truly an uplifting spiritual experience. God promises a blessing when we keep the sabbath
"  If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:  Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it." Isaiah 58:13,14 KJV
I think we all agree that God keeps his promises.

Perhaps the best example on how to keep the Sabbath is found in Jesus. The rulers of Jesus' time imposed strict rules and restrictions on the Sabbath. They did not see that such rules only made the Sabbath a burden. Their many heartless rites could not supply the lack of that truthful integrity and tender love which will ever characterize the true worshiper of God.
In Matthew 12, the disciples were hungry so they picked grain on the Sabbath. Obviously this involves more work than turning on a light switch yet when the Pharisees began to accuse them, Jesus defended the disciples’ actions.

You may have overlooked The Man himself. Jesus saw it fit to keep the commandments.
"I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love." John 15:10

 You really dont keep the sabbath.

 And ifGod knew? Now i coudl be reading you wrong but there is no way God didn't know, correct?

My point is simply this: God would never ask the impossible. God knows everything, and He knows that it is possible to keep the Sabbath.  "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." Philippians 4:13 KJV

Do you think God would give us a law which is impossible to keep ?

SDA pride themselfs on the keeping the sabbath. And yet you are saying the law is too hard to keep. The law is kept or it is not kept. You at least have said you dont keep the sabbath as written. The law is too hard?  Lets see if you can do all things throught Christ then surly you can keep the sabbath as written.

Personaly i dont have a problem with what ever day or days one worships as we should have His praises contiunaly in our mouths...

God sent Christ to fulfill the law because we cant. HE finished the job the job man can't.

I have seen SDA so full of the law they are not trusting in Christ. I have SDA friends who i believe are christian.

Firstly, SDAs take pride in loving Jesus. Jesus said "If ye love me, keep my commandments"

Secondly, where have I said that the law is to hard to keep?

impossible  


Your word was impossible i used the word hard because i cant spell well so i went and copied from your post the word impossible.

You did not seem to get what i was saying..... let me try again.  flipping the light switch is not labour. The use of  electricity causes labour.

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

I wonder how many labours are working at the different locations that it takes to allow all of us internet access. You dont go to  the local resturant for  eats on the sabbath correct?

Just going to church services on the Sabbath will break the Sabbath.

Unless you have a church that has no pastor, no plumbing and no electricity.

Hey Reba.

Where have I used the word "impossible" to mean that God's Sabbath is impossible to keep? Please refrain from taking one word out of context of the entire sentence.

These are the sentences I wrote which contain the word "impossible":
My point is simply this: God would never ask the impossible. God knows everything, and He knows that it is possible to keep the Sabbath.

Do you think God would give us a law which is impossible to keep ?
Here I was asking you a question, and I am still awaiting a response.

I'm not answering for Reba (I'm not wise enough), but if God's Old Testament laws were possible to keep, then Jesus Christ died for nothing.

Yes HE did  that is part of the reason Jesus  Was always His plan.

I am sorry i missunderstood you, in reguards to the word immposible.

Amen!

I don't think I am following you.
Why would God give us the Ten Commandments if there was no way of keeping them? I don't understand how God can ask the impossible. The Bible says "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." Philippians 4:13 KJV
As I have said all along, God never asks the impossible.

I am sorry you thought I was mocking you, that was not my intent. I asked a serious question.
These are all unclean meats.
I have talked to other 7th day worshipers, and they try to make a connection between the unclean meats and health. I even had one explain to me that the nitrites and nitrates in pork was what made them unhealthy. Of course this is a bogus excuse since these are recent additives to pork. I suggested he buy nitrate and hormone free, like I do. Ostrich is a very healthy meat to eat. The biggest health risk with lobster is the butter.
I think you are a little smarter than that, but I wanted to know why you felt pork was not OK to eat. Is it for health reasons only, and do you feel that is what God was saying? Or do you do it for ritual reasons?
It is not one of the 10 commandments, so why do you pick and choose which rules to follow and which to not follow.
If you are not eating pork because you are being obedient to God concerning unclean meats then why aren’t you being obedient to God by sacrificing animals and going to Jerusalem yearly?
Of course Jesus was Jewish, and the laws of unclean meats and the Sabbath law were directed to the Jews.
Did they change after He rose? YES!
As I pointed out in reply #36 God did indeed change the Sabbath day. It is found in the original manuscripts, and at least 2 translations get it right.
---
From Young’s Literal Translation:

Matthew 28:1 ¶ And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,
---
The body is Christ, a body casts a shadow.

Colossians 2:16 ¶ Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Colossians 2:17  Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Did the commandment concerning unclean meat change? YES!
It was also a shadow pointing to the work done by Christ.
After Jesus was resurrected the nation of Israel was no longer Gods chosen people. The gospel was made available to all mankind. This is why the shadow of unclean meats was removed in Acts 10 and 11.

Acts 10:13  And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
Acts 10:14  But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
Acts 10:15  And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

The unclean meats were a shadow pointing to unsaved man. Once Christ went to the cross the shadow was no longer necessary. Now we are washed clean in the blood of the lamb.

1 John 1:7  But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

God showed Peter, by using the unclean meats, that we are to no longer separate the clean from the unclean.

Acts 10:28  And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

How is not eating pork, ostrich, or catfish not eating right?

Hi Candice

Before I was ever married, I used to move a lot. One of the benefits of moving a lot is getting rid of stuff. I know what you are talking about.
It’s been over 20 years since I was able to dump things by moving. I have quite a collection.
I don’t find I am so attached to anything that it interferes with following the Lord.
My parents both died about 10 years ago, I ended up with a significant amount of their stuff on top of my own.
My mother was a very talented glass artist, I inherited some nice pieces of art. I have 4 children, they are not really children anymore, 10 years ago they were.
Glass + Children = Broken glass. Whenever something got broken I did find myself wondering why it hurt so much. It was just a material thing, but with memories attached.
If your possessions get in the way of your relationship with Christ then I can see the advantage of eliminating them.

While it is true that the translations can have errors, I don’t believe it was done because of evil intent.
We have an imperfect understanding of Gods word. The translators do the best they can, but there will be errors in translation.

1 Corinthians 13:9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

As others look at the translations they often work to correct the errors, more often than not I think they screw it up more.
As more and more people try to attack the KJV I have found it holds up very well. It was the first bible to be available to the masses, thanks to the printing press.
The Gutenberg bible was the first bible to be printed on the printing press, but it cost the equivalent of 3 years wages for the common man.
I believe God was very much involved with the printing of the KJV because it would become so readily available to the masses.
Scholars, with good and faithful hearts, have looked at these verses concerning the roles of women. They come to the same conclusion, the translation is accurate and faithful to the manuscripts.
Earlier when I showed how sabbatwn was mistranslated (reply 36) I did not come to that conclusion on my own. I learned it from the work of scholars, that studied this in great depth. Fortunately we have the tools to check out their conclusion.  

Why do you hate men so much?
Where do you find this?
We are not to trust in the wisdom of man, we are to trust in God. This means man, as in men AND women. There are plenty of Jezebels out there.
Many trust in the works of scientists, male AND female, instead of trusting in the word of God.  

 We were talking about those verses relating to the woman’s roll in the church. When people are assembled together to hear the word of God.
Women do have the responsibility to teach the children and the older women are to teach the younger women.

Titus 2:3  The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Titus 2:4  That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

You seem to want to teach women to hate men.


There are two churches.
Where we assemble together on this earth it is a church. These assemblies are made up of believers and nonbelievers. 1 Timothy and 1 Corinthians 14 is talking about these assemblies. God gives us the guidelines to follow.
I believe that one of the signs we are close to the end is shown by how few churches follow Gods guidelines. Today we not only have divorced, gay, and never married men running the churches. We have women and even lesbian ministers.
The other church is Gods divine church. It is made up of all true believers. As you correctly noted it is the body of Christ.
The true believers are defined as being the bride of Christ.

Revelation 21:9  And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife.

In Gods Spiritual Church ALL believers both male and female are considered to be the wife.
So now we take on the spiritual roll of the woman, are you going to tell Jesus, your husband, what to do?
I will happily learn from God in silence, asking my husband (Jesus) in private.

I agree, Christ died to pay for my sins.
We have strayed off topic a lot. It does belong in the thread started by His_child. Unfortunately I really will be limited in what I can contribute to the forums, and did not want to get on another thread.
I felt I needed to reply to you because I am concerned about your attitude toward men. I see a lot of animosity in your words.
Some would think I would have grounds to be angry toward women, but I take responsibility for my choices.
As I look back on my life I find that many of the women I came closest to had the same dysfunction.
There were many wonderful women but for some reason I didn’t stay with them. I am a rescuer, and it has gotten me women with problems.
Now I am divorced, and yet by Gods word still attached. I no longer date, as my wife still lives. Knowing my choices, I hope she lives a long time.  ;D

John  

Trev asks:
The Hebrews couldn't keep all of God's laws - that's why they had to make sacrifices at the alter.
We are so blessed that Jesus made the Final Sacrifice!

One of my favorite verses!  And... you may have me there... I'm not sure I can answer you.  Jesus said if we had the faith of a mustard seed we could move mountains - but we don't see a lot of mountains being moved... (has any mortal ever accomplished the feat?)

And to prove it was possible to keep His laws, He came to earth as a man and never sinned.  If we only had His strength...  But we don't (at least I don't).

God wants us to live perfect lives.  I certainly can't - though I wish I could.
 :)

God Bless,
JN

Good post ;D
When we become saved it is our desire to obey God because God has changed the heart.

Ezekiel 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Ezekiel 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

But we still have a body of flesh that will sin. It creates quite a war in us.

Romans 7:22  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Romans 7:23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Romans 7:24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Romans 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Nicely said  X

Well you said it. It is possible to keep His laws. I am not even sure why we are discussing this. It seems we are on the same page here. In our own strength, our righteousness is as filthy rags;however, Christ promised in Philippians 4:13 that nothing is impossible as long as He strengthens us.

Here is a list of people who have kept 'the Law"

  1. Jesus Christ



Go ahead add to the list, lets see how many we can think of....

My brother in Law is an SDA and they believe that one of their pastors keeps every law. He hasn’t sinned in so many years. I don’t believe he’s never woken up with a “morning glory” or stubbed his toe and never thought of saying “Sh—“  or added a little extra brown sugar on his Sanitarium corn flakes.
They make me laugh.

 :D 8)

It only breaks the letter of the law, not the spirit of the law.   Jesus taught us the spirit of the law is what is important.  That is why feeding yourself as the Apostles did, or healing someone as He did is not breaking the Sabbath.

Christ died because Israel did not understand that God wants mercy not sacrifice and they were trying to keep the letter of the law to merit salvation - that is what is impossible to do.  but Jesus and Paul taught us that love fulfills all the law (the spirit of the law).

Christ died because it was God's plan His plan from the foundation of the world. Man does not set God's plan God does.

Gen 3:14-15

14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
KJV

John 13:18

18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
KJV

Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
KJV

It was God's plan because He foreknew that the Israelites would not understand the true intent of the law.

Michael then how come He died for them, you and me?


Rev 17:8

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
KJV

When were the names written in the Book of Life?

C-U-L-T

Brother Love :)


<:)))><

I didn't have time to read everything that went on here, but it was enough to make me want to put my 2 cents worth in.  

I'm about as far from SDA as can be--BUT--the SDAs I know are simply people who want to follow God, and they see what they do as the best way of achieving that.  One of my best friends is a SDA.  If it wasn't for her, there wouldn't be another Christian in my class at school.

I say that she is a Christian because she believes that Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man, that he was born of a virgin, that he died to save the world from their sins, and that he rose again to life and in doing so killed death.  

Other than that, yes, I think she is sometimes a little legalistic...but I think we should remember St. Paul's words in Romans 14:  "One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables...Who are you to judge someone else's servant?   To his own master he stands or falls.  And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand."

>The use of  electricity causes labour.

The electricity is there whether or not you actually use it.

I would think that God would require us to use common sense in deciding what constitutes work and what does not.

The work would be in flipping that switch!  ;)