The Apostles Creed

[bluelake]

The topic of the Apostle Creed was brought up in Aug. I can't remember the persons name. He did say that he didn't think the Apostles Creed was scriptural. I will show it here and perhaps he can point out the errors that he finds in this Creed.
 
Apostles' Creed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:

2. And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:

3. Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:

4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:

5. The third day he rose again from the dead:

6. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:

7. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:

8. I believe in the Holy Ghost:

9. I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:

10. The forgiveness of sins:

1l. The resurrection of the body:

12. And the life everlasting. Amen.

Please keep in mind the word 'catholic' means, universal. It does not mean the Roman Catholic Church. Although they do recite this Creed .

God bless,
bluelake

[Marv]

I wasn't familiar with a version that uses "begotten" in the second line.

May I ask where you got it?

Marv

[Pilgrim]

I believe man made creeds and doctrinal statements are dangerous and should be avoided. The Word of God is the only doctrinal statement that mankind needs. I have seen to many doctrinal statements that go beyond the Word of God and exalt man’s traditions above the Bible. I think we get dangerously close to the pharisees and Sadducees and make void the Word of God by adding our own traditions that all are expected to hold to and follow.

Mar 7:1  Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem. 2  And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault. 3  For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders. 4  And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables. 5  Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? 6  He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7  Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8  For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9  And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Pilgrim

[ggamble]

I wasn't familiar with a version that uses "begotten" in the second line.

May I ask where you got it?

Marv

 I have it in the Creed of the Saints, which I got from a series of books called: "What Luther Says"
The only change from the creed mentioned is the (the Holy Christian Church) in Luther's day there may have been a reason for that.
While I was growing up attending church every Sunday until I was 16, we recited a Creed, that I have planted in my mind, to memory, which is not a bad thing, its all words from the Word and we said the same words "only begotten". We also recited the Lord's prayer every Sunday, though its design was a pattern in which to show us how to pray. It is the words of our Lord, and just sings, don't it.
But I'm no longer Methodist, it was stamped on my dog tags, but I'm not of that Church, but I belong to the body of our Lord Jesus Christ. Just not that denomination.

I believe man made creeds and doctrinal statements are dangerous and should be avoided, from  Pilgrim.

I don't feel that way about the Creed of the Saints, but doctrinal statements? I'd have hear them or read them first.  But what the Creed of the Saints says, well,  I see no harm in it. Because it is the Word and is truth, just put in a format. Because I did not make it, it is making me, it is the very truth of God and not the invention of any man.  Lyrics from a song I heard sung by Third day, which is a creed in song.

Luther said there were 6 things as the head of the family that should be taught in a simple way to his household. In other words these things should be taught at home. And I'm not Lutheran either.
 If they are used in the sense of works or as the only means to salvation, or rituals, religious practices for the wrong reasons or as regulations or to seem holy and the love of the Lord is not in it, then there is a danger. If  they are not yet committed to Jesus,  does not mean they are bad seeds of the Word being planted in them. I'm a witness to them seeds planted up till I was 16, then the years of rebellion until I truly seen the light at age 43, fits the Proverb to a tee.

The 6 items Luther said to be taught at home:
1) The Creed of the Saints
2) The Lord's prayer
3) The Ten Commandments
4) The Sacrament of Holy Baptism
5) The office of the Keys and Confession
6) The Sacrament of the Alter

Martin Luther's words on Catechism:
   Do not merely pass over the words of the catechism, observe them carefully and meditating on them prayerfully with an attentive heart. The catechism are summaries of Bible's teachings, the Catechism is an epitome and brief transcript of the entire Holy Scriptures. Stick to the fundamentals of the Bible, discuss not matters that have not yet been revealed. But simply stay with the Word of God, especially with the Catechism.
   It is doctrine at it's best and a foundation for the youth and the new believer, in which they may grow in Christianity. Daily reciting of these truths will work to revelation in a new believer unto their understanding and knowledge of them. {Which will enlighten the eyes of their hearts to wards the passions and desires of our Lord Jesus Christ. gg}
  As for the youth, it is grounds for which they will turn too in their days of old.  {It is seed, it will grow and it is the Word of God, it will not come back void. gg}

Proverbs 22:6 train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

It is God's will for us to teach our children about Jesus, why, he died on the cross for us, about the Father, and the Holy Ghost. If Jesus is in it and the goal of it, how can it be harmful, when explained about the importance of it coming from ones heart in seeking Him.

I would add to the things we must teach to our children, being empowered by the Spirit to do it.
Explaining the importance of staying in the Word, prayer, thanksgiving, giving, doing all things in love, to serve Him, explaining all the fruits of the Spirit, walking in the Spirit, about faith,  God's love for us, about salvation through making Jesus one's Lord and Savior, about surrendering to Him our all, His Lordship and what that means. truly loving Jesus, with all our heart and what sin is.
The importance of having a relationship with Jesus, about renewing the mind, about bringing all things in to obedience to Christ. In away a child could understand. Whats not the truth in the creed, is it not of  the Word of God?

                                           Pilgrims replies &  quotes from Mark 7
Mar 7:1  Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem. 2  And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashed, hands, they found fault. 3  For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders. 4  And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables. 5  Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? 6  He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7  Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8  For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9  And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Pilgrim

                                        LAB -NIV - commentary on Mark 1 - 9

 V1} Jesus scolded them for keeping the law and traditions in order to look holy instead of to honor God.
V3 & 4} Jewish rituals, the Pharisees thought these ceremonies cleansed them from anything they may consider unclean. Jesus said they were wrong in their thinking  they were acceptable to God just because they were clean on the outside.
V6 & 7}  Hypocrisy is pertending to be something you are not and have no intention of being. Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites because they worshiped God for the wrong reasons, their worship was not motivated by love, but by a desire to attain profit, to appear holy, and to increase their status. we become hypocrites when we (1) pay more attention to reputation than to character, (2) carefully follow certain religious practices practices while allowing our hearts to remain distant from God, and (3) emphasize our virtues but others' sins.
V8 & 9}  The Pharisees added hundreds of their own petty rules and regulations to God's holy laws, and then they tried to force people to follow these rules. These men claimed to know God's will in every detail of life. there are still religious leaders today who add rules and regulations to God's Word, causing much confussion among believers. It is idolatry to claim that your interpretation of God's Word is as important as God's Word itself. It is especially dangerous to set up unbiblical standards for others to follow. Instead look to Christ for guidance about your behavior, and let Him lead others in the details of their lives.  {LAB-NIV}


May the Lord bless thee and keep thee
Only always for Jesus
in the love of a brother
ggamble

[bluelake]

I believe man made creeds and doctrinal statements are dangerous and should be avoided. The Word of God is the only doctrinal statement that mankind needs. I have seen to many doctrinal statements that go beyond the Word of God and exalt man’s traditions above the Bible. I think we get dangerously close to the pharisees and Sadducees and make void the Word of God by adding our own traditions that all are expected to hold to and follow.

Mar 7:1  Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem. 2  And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault. 3  For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders. 4  And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables. 5  Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? 6  He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7  Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8  For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9  And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Pilgrim

Hello pilgrim,
I read your statement of faith. After reading it I can't understand what grievance you would have with the Apostle Creed?
For examlpe, the first line taken from  scripture. Jn.1:1-3, Col.1:16
2. Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord, Lu.1:32, Mt.3:17
3. Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary. Lu.1:35

I can give you passages for each line of this Creed.
Do you think we, as Christians would be reciting something contrary to the word of God? 

I challenge you to find the remainder of passages that give credence to this wonderful statement of Christian faith.

God bless you,
bluelake

[sincereheart]

I believe man made creeds and doctrinal statements are dangerous and should be avoided. The Word of God is the only doctrinal statement that mankind needs. I have seen to many doctrinal statements that go beyond the Word of God and exalt man’s traditions above the Bible. I think we get dangerously close to the pharisees and Sadducees and make void the Word of God by adding our own traditions that all are expected to hold to and follow.

I agree. 

But I fear, lest by any means,
as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty,
so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2 Cor 11:3 KJV

You'll remember, friends,
that when I first came to you to let you in on God's master stroke,
I didn't try to impress you with polished speeches and the latest philosophy.
I deliberately kept it plain and simple:
first Jesus and who he is;
then Jesus and what he did--Jesus crucified.
1 Cor 2:1-2 The Message


And one of my favorite quotes:
"The important thing is not how we worship
or what words we use,
or what tags we tie on,
but do we love our neighbors?
Are we guided by His Holy Spirit?
Do we obey Him implicitly?
Do we weep for those who do not know Christ?
Do we long to share our knowledge of Him?"
~Bilquis Sheikh
from: I Dared to Call Him Father

[sincereheart]

Do you think we, as Christians would be reciting something contrary to the word of God? 

I'm not Pilgrim,
but instead of finding something about the Word of God to recite --
maybe just recite from the Word, itself? 

[ollie]

The repitition of reciting does not help me as the reciting starts to take precedence over the message and I fail to bring the actions of the message into the heart/spirit whereby my body will follow and reflect God and His Christ to the natural world.

ollie

[ggamble]

Greetings Brother's & Sister's in Christ


  Just some thoughts to ponder on,  from history research I have on the Word of God, some which I may have obtained from www. greatsite.com / Bible museum in Goodyear, Arizona.

  The Bible was divided into Chapters by Stephen Langton about 1228 A.D. The Old Testament was divided into verses by R. Nathan in 1448 A.D.; the New Testament by Robert Stephanus in A.D. 1551. The entire Bible, divided into Chapters and Verses, first appeared in 1560 A.D. in the Geneva Bible.

  Our Lord said in:  Matthew 4:4  But He answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. {KJV}

  The Bible is God breathed, it says every Word, and we know that in John 1:14    And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father) full of grace and truth. {KJV}
So here it says Jesus is the Word, there is the only begotten, and it also says that in John 3:16, possibly the most memorized verse in the Bible. And it goes on and says full of grace and truth. Jesus said I'm the truth and the life. The Word we know is nothing but the truth, Jesus is the Word.
  Now in Matthew 4:4 Jesus is quoting scripture, notice He does not say it says in Deuteronomy 8:3 " and he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that doth not live by bread only, but by every Word proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live. {KJV}
  And from what we have in Chapter and Verse He did not quote the whole thing we now have in Chapter and Verse, just the Word. No chapter, no verse, just simply "It is written",  it is the Word of God. Now Jesus could have said it in terms of index or to show reference, because He knew it would appear like that one day. Knowing man would become more educated and complete in correctness to quickly obtain for reference purposes. But that would have been highly unlikely to do that, but He did tell them the world was round, when He said he would return but they knew not His understanding of that.
  Man put it in to Chapters and Verses, so did man corrupt the scriptures by doing that? No, he did not, it helps to learn it and to locate passages.  Reciting them things in the creed, are the Word, not in Chapter and Verse, but the Word just the same, Jesus is the Word and He is all in the creed. Reciting scriptures help us to learn them to memory, its all the Holy Spirit's work in us to try and obtain the knowledge of the scriptures. As Luther said, it will bring about revelation and learning the truth.  Is not the creed all the truth and the Word of God? Well, yes it is.   
  As I said in the last reply there are conditions and reasons that will not plant the truth, or will present danger. Sincerity is the key root of walking with Jesus, and as He said in John 15:7 "If ye abide in me, and My Words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will and it shall be done unto you." {KJV} The creed is putting that abide in there, and if you abide in Him. When I try to memorize scripture the Holy Spirit has brought me revelation to its meaning, when I first begin to pray on the Armor of God, it was the Spirit giving me revelation to what its understanding and knowledge and wisdom of it and it continues to enlighten me in God's will for me and understanding when the Spirit prompts me to His guidance.
  But faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, {KJV} Romans 10:17, it is the Word. The Holy Spirit, the hound of Heaven was after me along time because of them seeds of the Word planted in me in my youth, how ever they were spoken to me. In creed, or song, when the Spirit brings up scripture to me I don't recall where it is written till I need to find it, or else it's Strongest Strong time. But the Spirit discerns it in me to understand its revelation, its Him who gives me the scripture.
1 Corin. 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him.   {KJV} That whole chapter is rich in what the Spirit does in revelation. And about man's wisdom and the Words of the creed are not man's wisdom or just word's they are from the Word.
  I'm sure the men that brought it in the form of the creed, took all the necessary leads of the Spirit to make no doubt in its presentation of the Gospel and Word of God. Maybe if they would have added at the beginning of it "For it is written", then Christians would not have developed fear over the "Pure Words of God" in a creed form.
  Everything we say of the Word of God and all our actions and thoughts and speech should have in Jesus name at the conclusion of them, one day they will, upon His return.

May the Lord bless thee and keep
Only Always for Jesus
in the love of a brother
ggamble

[Allinall]

Hello pilgrim,
I read your statement of faith. After reading it I can't understand what grievance you would have with the Apostle Creed?
For examlpe, the first line taken from  scripture. Jn.1:1-3, Col.1:16
2. Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord, Lu.1:32, Mt.3:17
3. Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary. Lu.1:35

I can give you passages for each line of this Creed.
Do you think we, as Christians would be reciting something contrary to the word of God? 

I challenge you to find the remainder of passages that give credence to this wonderful statement of Christian faith.

God bless you,
bluelake

I don't think Pilgrim is against the statements that the creed makes.  I think he is retisent to uphold a man's statement, regardless of it's basis, over or in accordance with God's word.  I agree with the Creed.  I uphold God's word.   

[Pilgrim]

I'm not Pilgrim,
but instead of finding something about the Word of God to recite --
maybe just recite from the Word, itself? 

Amen! sincereheart.

[Pilgrim]

I don't think Pilgrim is against the statements that the creed makes.  I think he is retisent to uphold a man's statement, regardless of it's basis, over or in accordance with God's word.  I agree with the Creed.  I uphold God's word.   

Amen! Allinall,

The Word of God is more than sufficient for all our needs. As sincereheart pointed out God’s Word in it’s simplicity doesn’t need the aid of mankind to make it’s point. To often mankind thinks they are helping out with their doctrinal statements and in the end they corrupt the Word of God. The Heidelberg confession, Belgic confession and Cannons of Dort are just a few example of mankind tampering with the Word of God and bring in error in a major way.

Pilgrim

[Pilgrim]

Luther said there were 6 things as the head of the family that should be taught in a simple way to his household. In other words these things should be taught at home. And I'm not Lutheran either.
 If they are used in the sense of works or as the only means to salvation, or rituals, religious practices for the wrong reasons or as regulations or to seem holy and the love of the Lord is not in it, then there is a danger. If  they are not yet committed to Jesus,  does not mean they are bad seeds of the Word being planted in them. I'm a witness to them seeds planted up till I was 16, then the years of rebellion until I truly seen the light at age 43, fits the Proverb to a tee.

Hello ggamble,

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Luther is the wrong man to quote to me. I don’t have much respect for a man as wicked as he was. At age 60 Luther wrote “The Jews and Their Lies”, one of the most hate filled documents I have ever read. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Luther_on_Jews.html

Pilgrim

[Marv]

A complete translation is here.

Many focus on the Jews and ignore the Lies.   Luther spoke very strongly of any who disagreed with him.  I don't think, as the Jews did, that any man could assume he could go around Luther's area and teach that the Virgin Mary was a whore and Jesus was the illegitimate son of Mary and a blacksmith and expect to escape his sharp tongue.

Nor would I expect any to escape who look to the fact that they are physically decendended from Abraham as to proof of their salvation to escape.

Nor the fact that he is circumcised as proof of his salvation.

Nor someone who teaches that the Law is the way to salvation.

Especially not if one was teaching those things and actively using them to proselytyze people in Luther's area.

I've read Luther's booklet, and it clearly references a booklet it is written in reply to.  Here is the last paragraph of Luther's.

So long an essay, dear sir and good friend, you have elicited from me with your booklet in which a Jew demonstrates his skill in a debate with an absent Christian. He would not, thank God, do this in my presence! My essay, I hope, will furnish a Christian (who in any case has no desire to become a Jew) with enough material not only to defend himself against the blind, venomous Jews, but also to become the foe of the Jews' malice, lying, and cursing, and to understand not only that their belief is false but that they are surely possessed by all devils. May Christ, our dear Lord, convert them mercifully and preserve us steadfastly and immovably in the knowledge of him, which is eternal life. Amen.

If you are going to use his writing to conclude he was an anti-Semite, at least read what he wrote, don't base it on condensed versions and others conclusions about what he wrote.

Marv

[ggamble]

Brother Pilgrim,

  I have not read all of  "What Luther says", but alot of it only as I was lead to read. He died in 1546, February 18, not far away. As I was reading where your address led me, it did not read like Luther, wrote or from what I have read of him. Alot of it seemed like something that he would not have did, from what happened after the 95 thing he nailed on the door of the church. And as Marv said it is incomplete.
  No matter, I'm glad he followed the Spirit's lead back then, so we have the Word. Alot that is in the King James was from his translations. If he did anything outside of the Lord's will, or should I say what Jesus would have not done. Well, he had a flesh too, and I would have  to forgive as would you. And would hope the Spirit called him to repentance, since I know he heard His voice, I'd say he got all things right before He went to be with Jesus,  John 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.    Dead or alive he is still a brother, and in what I posted in reference to him saying, many others would say the same thing.
  But my second post on here was as the first in reference to the creed as the Word of God. And well, the men that did it left out the verses and chapter and Book it was in, and they could had made it more Biblically correct if they would have put "For it is written" before they started the creed, and maybe in Jesus name at the end of it to prove it. Which they did not have to do, because it is all in the Bible, and even the end of it, because it mentions the church in the Bible also. I recognize where they got it from in the Word, don't you?
  On Luther, I thank God for choosing him, to get the Word out and to keep the Book of Acts growing. I thank God for the creed, and it's truth and how it just sings of His glory. And I thank God for you, love ya brother. As long as it's in lines with His Word, I'll teach it to may children in any method the Spirit guides me too. Because I have that watchman over me, to give me discernment of what is of the truth and what is of man. The Spirit of God, with saying that, I'll be digging in for a test of it.  Praise Jesus
  Blessed be His name.


May the Lord bless thee and keep thee
Only Always For Jesus
in the love of a brother
ggamble