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DigitGen
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Ecc 5:7-For in the multitude of dreams...


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« on: December 08, 2005, 11:57:27 PM »

     The new birth is as real as the first birth.  The Lord Jesus Christ said to Nicodemus, "that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (John 3:6)."

     When a child is born into the world, a new life comes into existence.  This life has a human nature, which is sinful.  It is therefore subject to death.  This is the birth that Jesus called "the flesh" and the result of that birth is flesh.  This life cannot change its nature.  It is as the grass that withers, and as a flower that falls away (I Peter 1:24).  To be saved does not mean that this life which is born of the flesh is changed or made over.  This cannot happen, for its nature cannot be changed.  That is the condition that makes the new birth imperative.  The only thing God can do with the flesh is to judge it, and judgment results in condemnation and execution (Romans 8:3, Galatians 2:19: Romans 6:6).

     The new birth is a birth of the Spirit.  It is to be "...born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God (John 1:13)."  Peter says, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever (I Peter 1:23)."  This seed not only lives forever, but it has also been revealed that it remains in the one who is born of God (I John 3:9).  Such a life must be eternal and that is what Jesus said it is (John 3:16).  That life which is eternal cannot die.  All who are born of incorruptible seed have an incorruptible nature and have eternal life.  It is impossible for such to be lost, for that would mean the corruption of the divine nature and the death of that which cannot die.  By the new birth, one who has already been born into the human race is born into the Spiritual realm, that is, the Kingdom of God.  This is the only way to see or enter that realm (John 3:3,5).

     "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature (creation): old things are passed away; behold all things are become new (II Corinthians 5:17)."  This verse speaks of the old conditions, which existed for the unsaved man, as passed away, and behold, all brand new conditions exist for the saved man - the one who is born again.

     When the new birth takes place many irreversible things take place.  The Bible states that the one who is born again has:

1)     Received everlasting life (John 3:16)
2)     Been born again (I John 5:1)
3)     Been born of incorruptible seed (I Peter 1:23)
4)     This incorruptible seed remaining in him (I John 3:9)
5)     Become a son of God (John 1:12)
6)     Become a new creation (II Corinthians 5:17)
7)     Been passed from death unto life (John 5:24)
Cool     Been exempted from future condemnation (John 5:24)
9)     Been redeemed from under the law (Galatians 4:5)
10)     Been redeemed from the curse of the law (Galatians 4:5)
11)     Become dead to the law (Romans 7:4)
12)     Received an eternal redemption (Hebrews 9:12)
13)     Been reconciled to God (II Corinthians 5:18)
14)     Peace with God (Romans 5:1)
15)     Been justified (Romans 5:1)
16)     All trespasses forgiven him (Colossians 2:13)
17)     Been delivered from the power of darkness (Colossians 1:13)
18)     Been translated into the kingdom of the Son of God (Colossians 1:13)
19)     Been perfected forever (Hebrews 10:14)
20)     His sins no more remembered (Hebrews 10:17)
21)     His sins removed as far as the East is from the West (Psalms 103:12)
22)     Been made complete in Christ (Colossians 2:10)
23)     Been accepted of God (Ephesians 1:6)
24)     Been born of the Spirit of God (John 3:6)
25)     Been baptized by the Spirit of God (I Corinthians 12:13)
26)     Been indwelt by the Spirit of God (I Corinthians 6:19-20)
27)     Been sealed with God's Spirit (Ephesians 1:13)
28)     Become the object of God's love (Ephesians 2:4)
29)     Become the object of God's grace (Romans 6:14)
30)     Become the object of God's power (Ephesians 1:19)
31)     Become the object of God's faithfulness (I Corinthians 1:9)
32)     Become a citizen of heaven (Ephesians 2:19, Philippians 3:20)
33)     Been seated with Christ in the heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6)
34)     Been already glorified (Romans 8:30)
35)     Been given a home in heaven (John 14:1-3)
36)     Been kept by the power of God (I Peter 1:5)
37)     Been crucified with Christ (Galatians (2:20)
38)     Been buried with Christ (Romans 6:4)
39)     Been resurrected with Christ (Ephesians 2:6)

     All of the above plus many other things are true about one who has trusted Jesus Christ as his Savior and as a result become born-again.  Not a single individual who has been born into the human race has been able to remove himself from it.  Many have committed suicide, but all they have done is to shorten the days of their earthly existence.  Their existence still continues on and on into the eternity of the future.  Still some teach that one who has been saved can be lost.  By analogy with the human race, this is impossible.  A person cannot become unborn physically, nor can he become unborn spiritually.  No provision is given in the Word of God for one to become unborn.  "That which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of Spirit is spirit (John 3:6)."

     One only becomes born-again once.  Nowhere does this imply that you become born again, then unborn, then born again, then unborn, and so on.  Once you trust Christ and are born-again all of the above list of things happen to you.  If you could be unborn, all would have to be made void, but all of the above list is eternal and irreversible.

     Jesus promised the believer, "...I will in no wise cast you out (John 6:37)."  Also, Jesus said of those that are saved, "...I should lose nothing, but should raise it (them) up again at the last day (John 6:39)."  Jesus promised that he would never lose a person who was saved.  If one person were ever lost after having been born-again, then Jesus would be a liar.  Friend, that can never happen.  (See Titus 1:2).

     The only ground upon which God does anything for man is the gift of His Own Son.  "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE (John 3:16)."

What happened when you trusted Christ?  At least 39 things happened that make it impossible for you to ever be lost!  Praise the Lord!


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Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive. Yea, better is he than both they, which hath not yet been, who hath not seen the evil work that is done under the sun.
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« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2005, 05:24:40 AM »

AMEN BROTHER!!

It is wonderful just to think about what JESUS CHRIST did on the Cross for us and why. I give thanks that GOD gets all the GLORY and my Salvation doesn't depend upon anything I have earned or deserve. Salvation must be a GIFT from GOD since no man can ever earn or deserve it. Most of all, I give thanks that I place all of my faith, trust, and hope in JESUS, not myself or another man. I've earned nothing, but my Lord and Saviour paid it all on the CROSS!

Thanks be unto GOD for HIS unspeakable GIFT!, JESUS CHRIST, our Lord and Saviour forever!

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 John 1:7 NASB  but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
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« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2005, 09:06:21 AM »

More than Good to hear brother,
In his love and grace,
Good to hear that seem to be reasonably comon hear it is rare now a day
David Winn

« Last Edit: December 10, 2005, 09:59:59 PM by blackeyedpeas » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2005, 12:49:18 AM »

I think you might be referring to the onced saved always saved theme, about salvation. As if no matter what you do your in, right? It's knowing the cost!
And It's loving Him and belief in Him and building a relationship, and choice that secure our salvation. The Proverb about a dog returning to his vomit.  Read about the seeds sown in the soils. Martin Luther even was perplexed to the scriptures in James 5:19-20. but it does say, save a soul from death, and John said things like don't be caught in darkness. The verses in Matthew7:22-23, are explaining that He knew them not. To mean they had no relationship with Him. Which goes back to the first commandment Jesus said was above all others. Love the Lord with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. (not in the translation of the King James, but you know the words of the commandments He stressed in them passages).
And the scriptures tell about the branches being thrown in the fire, and in Hebrews 6:1-12, the warnings of backsliding. I could go on finding scripture that supports it comes down to a choice.  Satan is going to come against that choice everytime he's allowed. The main objective is, obedience. Making Him our Lord, surrender, of our total being, slain to the Spirit as our guide. Because "Love" obeys, and it was love that held Jesus on the cross not nails. He loved the Father, let thine will be done. And He loved us, big time! I think to many times folks get alittle hard core on what people say about being condemned. Most people are not setting in judgment, they are warning if one does not turn from their sin, they might face it. We should warn a brother of his error.  Now, for the Charismatic movement, well, read 1 Corinthians 12-13-14 again and let the Spirit guide you to its understanding, I know some areas of the church forget the guidelines and I believe even teach it somewhat off course. But its the Spirit that teaches, it says so in the Scriptures, I believe thats in 1st John. And women preaching, who was first to come back from the tomb saying He has risen? The first one to spread the Gospel, to tell that what was written had been done. I don't think Joyce Meyers has climbed over  the alignment ladder. And our preachers of the Word are going to miss it sometimes, but you have to forgive them and pray for them. Gods polices everything and if you are reading the Word, have the relationship going, dying daily to your flesh, if the sanctification power of the Holy Spirit is at work in you, your being obedient as you can possibily be, walking in the Spirit. Your be able to know what is right and what is wrong. {discernment} Just remember God is in control, and Jesus is Lord. Gods at work in a lot of them minstries. It's all about Jesus, maybe more should say that. And the "I" should be in all of us to pray for our brothers and sisters. Them that need to be healed. Jesus always first had compassion on anyone first before they were healed. and He,s still doing it today. Jesus in John 15:7 "If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it will shall be given unto you."  Jesus is the Word, and if His Word is in You and you ask in accordance to Gods will, then there you have it. Its a measure of faith, His will being done on earth as it is in Heaven. We have to pray for discernment of the scriptures also, in this case of the word I mean "understanding". Paul said to pray for the gifts, and if someone has trouble with someone that has these gifts {which are given by the Father},  then maybe there is a door of truth they have not allowed to open to give way to the Spirit in their sanctification.  I think the main thing to remember is that the enemy likes to bring offence into the church, for good reason. It gets our focus off Christ and the good things we should be filling our minds and souls with, love.
The power in prayer is from the one that hears it, and all them that have a upright ministry know that.

May the Lord bless thee, and keep thee
only always for Christ Jesus.
from the love of a brother in Christ Jesus
ggamble
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« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2005, 10:06:03 PM »

You mis-use Hebrews 6 so I must say this first

Can a person who has been saved lose his salvation?  This question has been a perplexing one to many.  Maybe you have been questioning the genuineness of your salvation.  Are you really saved?  Are you really sure?

     Consider the alternative, that you could lose your salvation.  By virtue of the fact that you could lose it, would mean that keeping salvation would depend upon you efforts or actions.  In other words, a person who says that he can lose his salvation for whatever reason, is in reality saying that he is trusting in human works to save himself.  Look at Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace (mercy) are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is a gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast."  Salvation is not of works; therefore a person who is trusting in his works is not and will not be saved.  What are we saying?  Plainly stated: a person who says he can lose his salvation is not saved or he is thoroughly confused and lacks assurance of salvation.

     If you are not saved forever, then you are not saved.  Let me say it again.  If you are not saved forever, then you are not saved.

     Have you ever noticed how Bible commentaries skip difficult passages?  It can be very frustrating because usually a person buys a commentary to help them to understand a difficult passage.  Well, Hebrews 6:4-6 falls into that category.  Many times people skip over or ignore Hebrews 6 because it is difficult to understand.

     Often Hebrews 6:4-6 is misinterpreted to teach that a saved person can be lost after they have been saved.  To teach that a saved person could be lost would mean that you would contradict many clear passages that say the exact opposite.

     A good rule to remember when interpreting difficult passages in the Bible is as follows: Whenever you have a passage that is difficult to understand you never allow it to contradict a clear passage on the subject.  In other words, you should interpret a difficult passage in the light of clear passage.

     You should never contradict a "verily, verily" verse.  For example, Jesus said in John 6:47, "Verily, verily I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."  When Jesus said "verily, verily", He was saying "truthfully, truthfully".  Why?  Did Jesus ever lie?  The answer is NO!  Jesus did not and could not lie because He is God.  Titus 1:2 tells us that God cannot lie.  Jesus was simply saying, "This is a truth not to be passed over."  In John 6:47 we have a truth so important that if a person misses this truth he or she will go to hell for all eternity.  The secret of eternal life is no secret.  Jesus said plainly, "He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."  The only condition to this offer of EVERLASTING LIFE (NOT TEMPORARY LIFE) is BELIEF (TRUSTING IN CHRIST).  Don't contradict a clear verse like this one.  With this in mind, let's look at Hebrews 6:4-6.

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good Word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance, seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame."  Hebrews 6:4-6

     Notice that the passage is talking about those who are saved.  There are five things said about them that demonstrate this truth:

     First, "Those who were once enlightened" refers to a saved person or one who has seen "the light" of the Lord Jesus Christ.  The same word "enlightened" is translated "illuminated" in Hebrews 10:32 and speaks of a saved individual.

     Second, "tasted of the heavenly gift" refers to salvation.  Romans 6:23 says, "The gift of God is eternal life."  Ephesians 2:8 says that salvation "is the gift of God."  The word "tasted" is used in Hebrews 2:9 saying Christ "tasted death for every man."  We tasted of the heavenly gift in the same way Christ tasted death--that is, fully and completely.

     Third, "We're made partakers of the Holy Ghost."  The Bible teaches in Romans 8:9, "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."  In other words, if you don't have the Holy Spirit you are not saved.  The moment a person trusts Christ as Saviour he or she partakes of the Holy Spirit.  If you do not have the Holy Spirit, then you are unsaved.

     Fourth, "Tasted the good Word of God."  The Bible tells us in I Corinthians 2:14, "But the natural (unsaved) man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."  Only the saved man can taste of the Word of God.

     Fifth, "The powers of the world to come."  Only the born-again man has experienced the power of God.  Romans 1:16 says, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth."  A person who is born-again has experienced the power of God.

     "If they shall fall away" is not referring to salvation but it is referring to the "Christian life"!  Hebrews 6:1 tells us that the writer is speaking about things that accompany salvation.  Hebrews 6:1 tells us that the writer is talking about maturity in the Christian life and not about how to be saved.

     Well, what is Hebrews 6:6 talking about?  Verse six is simply stating to Hebrew (Jewish) believers who were used to a yearly sacrifice that it was impossible for them to be saved again because "by ONE offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified [the believers in Christ] (Hebrews 10:14)."  Hebrews 6:1 tells us that we cannot "lay again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God."

     If a believer falls away from serving the Lord, the procedure is not to become saved again.  That is impossible.  It is impossible to "renew" them again unto repentance (the change of mind necessary to accept Christ as Saviour).

     Hebrews 6:6 warns that if you try to become saved again all you do is crucify Jesus Christ afresh to yourself, thereby shaming Jesus Christ.

     The Bible does not teach that one must be born again and again and again, etc.  You can only be born-again once, never to be cast out (John 6:37) or lost (John 6:39).  Salvation is complete and final.  (Read John 5:24).

     The solution for a believer fallen away from service to the Lord is to start serving again.  We are encouraged by the words of Hebrews 6:10, that "God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love."  God will reward faithful service to him.  (See I Corinthians 15:58).

     God wants us to grow in knowledge of Him, to serve Him and to mature.

Lack in these areas does not mean that we have lost our salvation.  That is why it is impossible to get saved again (Hebrews 6:6), because it is impossible to lose salvation (Hebrews 13:5).  To try to become saved again (impossible) shames Jesus Christ who has saved us forever (John 6:47; Hebrews 9:12; 10:10; 10:12-14, 17, 18).  To serve Him again brings glory and honor to Him (John 12:24), and His blessing and reward is upon us (I Corinthians 15:58).

You speak of duty, we have many 'duties' the first of which is holiness to not sin you will not do this and you cannot do this. Which is what makes you need Christ in the first place your inability. when we trust in him to save us all our sins are forgiven not just sins we have already done, all our sins including our sins of doubt and unbelief. Our 'flesh is flesh' and will always fail this never changes but our eternal soul & spirit has been regenerated, and no corruption of the flesh will ever change the work God has done

Ecc. 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth  it , that men should fear before him.

Our salvation is not a work we do but a work God does
In his Love and Greatest Grace,
David Winn
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« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2005, 09:03:39 PM »

check out hewbrews 10:26, once saved always saved? i'm curious, what happened to judas?
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« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2005, 09:48:13 PM »

Hebrews 6:4-6 is a hypothetical situation...the thing about Hebrews 6:4-6 is that it's basically saying that if they lost their salvation it would be IMPOSSIBLE for them to do anything to get it back. This isn't the message of the mainstream line of thought today because they say that you can re-gain it should you lose it. There is the flaw in the thinking that Hebrws 6:4-6 teach that one can lose their salvation. We don't know what happened to Judas, however we do not know what was on his heart, so we cannot say with 100% complete accuracy that he went to heaven. There is supporting evidence for either side of that arguement based on his actions. The most common arguement that is brought to the table is "Well he was chosen as one of Jesus' disciples." Correct, but does that mean that he was saved by grace through faith in Jesus for the remission and covering of sins? One has to ask themself that question if they are going to come to the table with that stance. Now onto Hebrews 10:26. I counter with does Scripture not say that Jesus' sacrifice was ONCE and for all? (Ref Hebrews 9:24-28) This states that Jesus does not offer Himself often and that He was offered up once for the sins of many. Now i'm sure we are in agreement that Jesus only had to come to die ONCE. Now the author of Hebrews is saying in chapter 10 the same thing in Chapter 9. He bounces right off of talking about not forsaking the assembling of ourselves, into saying "don't go and sin willfully." My question is this: as a Believer with the Holy Spirit within us do we still WANT to sin if we are saved according to His will? The answer is no. we are given a new heart, and a new spirit to serve Him. Yes, we'll still fall prey to sin, that's part of our human nature, however, if we are truely saved and born again, we aren't going to WANT to go back to that fallen nature once we've tasted that which God has given us. I'm being summoned by my parents to take my medicine, but i'll be back in a little while. Think on these things. God Bless.

Coram Deo,
Joshua
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« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2005, 11:24:30 PM »

Brothers and Sisters,

This is a popular debate, one that causes a lot of thought and study. I don't want to argue, but I would like to mention a few things for thought on this issue.

1 - GOD never repents on a single promise - NEVER!

2 - If a person is truly saved, they have the Holy Spirit of GOD in their hearts and the SEAL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT ON THEIR HEART. NOTHING can break the SEAL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT!

3 - Many portions of the Holy Bible deal with exhortations for Christian living so that their joy may be more full. These portions of Scripture are many times used to indicate that Christians can lose Salvation.

This is just a general thought that I wanted to add, one that I give thanks for. If I have a stroke, go insane, get Alzheimer's, or any number of other things, JESUS will never leave or forsake me. I've already been delivered, and I belong to JESUS. NOTHING can remove me from HIS Mighty Hands. JESUS paid it all on the CROSS, the PROMISE has already been made to me by GOD, I've already been placed into the BODY OF CHRIST, and the SEAL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT is on my heart. JESUS said it was finished on the CROSS, and it is FINISHED FOR ME. I have been bought by the Blood of JESUS, and I belong to HIM. In terms of Salvation for me, that's the end of the story. I'M SAVED! - THANK YOU JESUS!

Thanks be unto GOD for HIS unspeakable GIFT!, JESUS CHRIST, our Lord and Saviour forever!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 11:33 NASB  Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
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« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2005, 03:35:50 AM »

{In reply to Hebrews 6 and mis-use of}
A Bible commentary that I've studied out of is the Life Application - New International Version. In here before the chapter is a sub-title: Warning Against Falling Away  This is what I based my referance on, as a warning to falling away and choice with what it says in accorance to these comments from Tyndale/Zondervan's issue LAB-NIV 1991.
In here they tell of the Jewish Christians returning back to Judaism. The fact is it was their choice. For them it was less obvious when they broke away, their life-style remained relatively unchanged. But by deliberately turning away from Christ, they were cutting themselves off from God's forgiveness. It says the author warned against hardness of the heart that would make repentance inconceivable for the sinner.
A brother reminded me about Saul, the Holy Spirit left him and look what happened. And he made that happen by his choices.
Old Testament, but the facts are there.
John 15:1-8, here Jesus is talking about the branches, in 3, may be saying something about where His disciples are at spiritually.  In 5 our Lord is saying them that abide in Him, shall bring about much fruit. {Fruit is not limited to winning souls to Christ in these passages} In 6 He says; "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered, and men gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." The Amplified Bible says "does not dwell in me", and uses "united to me", "lives in me".  Abide means also to know someone. Here I believe I can base the relationship value, I was writing about.
About duty as being works, anything I do is because I continue to seek Him. I know I'm saved because of God's grace and for what Jesus did on the cross. But as I said the ememy keeps coming against my choice that made Jesus my Lord and Saviour. Why would he do that? If not for some reason, he roars about, waiting. Why?
I know by experience that by backsliding that I was lost, I was on and off with the walk, I've experience all the soils Jesus talks about in the scriptures. Each time deeper into sin I went, 7 more unclean spirits came back in me as I walked by my choice in the lust of my flesh, for my desires. I experienced the Holy Spirit's coming upon me, that peace that entered me. But I walked away slowly giving into the world, then I lived as I wanted. The relationship broke because of me, my choice. I knew I was in danger, I knew it. As I went the more miserable I got. I longed for that peace again. I had many sins on my plate, unrepented, unconfessed sins against the Father. I had not humbled myself to do it. All of which, were my choices, my rebellion, running and each time the Hound of Heaven came I would resist. I would say "I know, I need to get right with the You, Lord", but reason and justification and the world bondage held me down.
Each time I came back, more foundation was built. growing up I was raised going to church, Methodist, confirm to Christ as they called it when I was 13, in 1973. Which I knew Him not, until November 21, 1992 when the Holy Spirit came in me. When I confess Him as My Lord and Saviour there was a change, what was going on in me was like something I could not explain, but I had peace, but my mind was like a waterfall of every kind of thought. The discipleship of the church did not come to explain or help me through the conversion. I had a hunger for the Word, for Him, I was on my knees and in prayer not because of what I did but by what the Holy Spirit was doing in me, but I did not endure, unconfessed sin I don't believe will be burnt off. But I knew what fire I was heading for. It wasn't untill the Passion of the Christ, came to town that His plan came all in place. I went to see it on the Friday before Good Friday, then on Easter I was in a 4 Square Gospel Church and repented. I had that peace and the hunger came back to seek Him stronger than I had ever before in 1992, 1996, 2001 (and then April 18, 2004 the good soil.) Two Pastors in 1996 from The Church of God took me under their wing and discipled me quite a bit, I grew a lot then. But this time the Lord had two men from the Apostolic Church discipleing me, their worship service is different from the 4 Square Church I attend, but our study of the Word and our guidance depend on the same Holy Spirit. And they have done nothing but show me Jesus and help me grow in Him. It was a Joyce Meyers tape that introduced me to what Paul meant in the renewing of the mind. Then bringing every thought into obedience to Christ, and the casting down of imaginations and anything not to the knowledge of God. Filing up that void in my soul with that of Jesus, crucifying my flesh. Putting on the armor of God everyday before I went out to meet the evil of the day was what got me through the birth canel, and he fleed and on the mountain top I received the promise. Was that works?  Or is that the things that righteous people do? 1992 I went through conversion, baptism, did I get all the way through the battle for my soul? I felt I was saved, my life had did a 180, there was a change in me from God. I believed I could never lose it even if I walked away for a while. Till I was away, each time God crushed my spirit and spanked His child to wake me up and see it. 1996 was no different, He was in me, 2001, I repented at home and returned to The Church of God. My 3rd wife confessed Him her Lord and Saviour, and was baptised, then the new wore off for her and I failed as the priest in the home. Then 2004, the Passion changed it all. I repented of my sins and confessed Him before the Church, as I had done in 1992 and have kept on to this day seeking Him. He is always on my mind, praise Jesus. My wife and I were seperated then, I had filed for divorce, God revealed to me this passage that I failed to do each time I came back and forth from Him. Matthew 6:33  "But ye seek first His kingdom and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."  I let the enemy beat me up with me seeking more of my will than His. God really showed me all of who He is this time, I can relate to Jesus, He is my Lord, it took my total surrender on my part. Was that works, or mans doctrine, or was it the work of the Holy Spirit? All I had to do was humble myself, confess, repent, God crushed my spirit, and Jesus did the rest. Duty, if that is what allegiance is as being a soldier of the cross, then, so be it. But I do what I do because I believe, because I love Him, because He first loved me. Because of the blood He shed for my sake. 1 Peter 1:13-14 mention of obedience, it's in the Word, is that works, or is it what it says it is in the line above obedient children? Hope to the end for the grace that is brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Is it not my choice to be obedient, what fuels it? Love, love obeys. I focused on Jesus, and God fixed my life, my marriage restored and being what we were called to be, His.
I did nothing but seek Him, I believe that was faith. I had to repent, or I would have been in darkness. I had not asked for forgiveness for any of the sins I committed while being in the backslide arena. {don't be caught in darkness} {warning}  And I repent each time now, when I miss the mark. Because that's what the Word says to do. Ever so thankful for His grace and I keep pressing on. Sorry, so long, and its late,  my witness and opinion rests in closing with this a verse a brother gave me,  awhile back.
1 Corinthians 13:12-13, For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but shall I know as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

May the Lord bless thee and keep thee
only always for Christ Jesus
in the love of a brother
ggamble

P.S. Brother blackeyed pea, what if your caught in darkness, with unrepented sin? What holds one back from humbling himself to confess, is that not pride? Is that not one sin God hates? Like Adam and Eve, they had a choice. Did Jesus not say repent for the kingdom is near? Repentance and choice are always at play.
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« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2005, 02:09:40 AM »

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ggamble Said:

P.S. Brother blackeyed pea, what if your caught in darkness, with unrepented sin? What holds one back from humbling himself to confess, is that not pride? Is that not one sin God hates? Like Adam and Eve, they had a choice. Did Jesus not say repent for the kingdom is near? Repentance and choice are always at play.

ggamble,

On the specific and sole issue of Salvation, there are no "what ifs, maybes, close, in-betweens, etc." You are either Saved or you are lost, and you can only be Saved once. There is no installment plan on the part of the believer, specifically because JESUS finished the work on the Cross and man has nothing to add to a perfect sacrifice. All men sin, including Christians, and that is one of the primary reasons why JESUS died on the Cross for us.

Many people sit in church pews for years and are never Saved. If a person is Saved, there is only one kind of Salvation: ETERNAL. At the moment of Salvation, GOD has already promised Eternal Life to the new believer.

Remember, we are talking about the specific and sole issue of Salvation. There is NO on and off Salvation. You are either Saved or you are lost. You either have Eternal Life in JESUS or you don't. Here's the only "if" that applies:  if you were truly Saved, you are Saved!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Galatians 2:19-21 NASB  "For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

2 Corinthians 1:20-22 NASB  For as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes; therefore also through Him is our Amen to the glory of God through us. Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
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« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2005, 07:00:11 AM »

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ggamble Said:

P.S. Brother black eyed pea, what if your caught in darkness, with unrepented sin? What holds one back from humbling himself to confess, is that not pride? Is that not one sin God hates? Like Adam and Eve, they had a choice. Did Jesus not say repent for the kingdom is near? Repentance and choice are always at play.

gamble,

On the specific and sole issue of Salvation, there are no "what ifs, maybes, close, in-betweens, etc." You are either Saved or you are lost, and you can only be Saved once. There is no installment plan on the part of the believer, specifically because JESUS finished the work on the Cross and man has nothing to add to a perfect sacrifice. All men sin, including Christians, and that is one of the primary reasons why JESUS died on the Cross for us.

Many people sit in church pews for years and are never Saved. If a person is Saved, there is only one kind of Salvation: ETERNAL. At the moment of Salvation, GOD has already promised Eternal Life to the new believer.

Remember, we are talking about the specific and sole issue of Salvation. There is NO on and off Salvation. You are either Saved or you are lost. You either have Eternal Life in JESUS or you don't. Here's the only "if" that applies:  if you were truly Saved, you are Saved!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Galatians 2:19-21 NASB  "For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

2 Corinthians 1:20-22 NASB  For as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes; therefore also through Him is our Amen to the glory of God through us. Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

blackeyedpeas, greetings

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.  {KJV} (Notice the "IF") That's the only real if in salvation.
Your telling me,  confess not!  It's been paid for! And we both know we are going to sin, right.  Is not one sin a moment of darkness?
In the same since, bear with me, in John 3:10, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; {you just admitted we will  sin}, for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. {so whats this tell you?} Were born of God, through being reborn? Through Jesus right, the shed blood. Then it says you cannot sin. so by admitting your sin then here it says you are not born of God. Then not truly saved.
So how would you get back in right standing and be just? Through confession? As it says in 1 John 1:9.  
I'm not trying to be funny or anything, but in 1 Thess. 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. This is my quest. Also here in 1 Thess. 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should not overtake you as a thief. Here we know Paul is talking about Christ return, and he's put out a warning {the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night,  1Thess5:2}   He calls them brethren, we know that, that means Christians, brothers in Christ, family of God, born of God.
They are not under law, but saved through the blood of Christ. One sin is darkness, by what I have learned about the Father, for He is holy, pure light. That's why by His grace He gave His only begotten Son, to pay the price for our salvation. I would understand that "overtake" would mean also caught in sin. So that also tells me the threat of Satan, what he is trying to do, as in to ruin us with God. Which puts this other passage into knowledge for me from 1 Peter 5:8 be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about seeking whom he can devour;.......
Why would he do that if we are already them that are sealed, then what to our human understanding would be the purpose? Would he not be somewhere where someone is about to come to Christ and be saved? Since we are sealed, but can yet sin, why would that sin be so important to him.
Have you ever been with someone close to death, who is a Christian, he is still trying steal, as he kills and tries to destroy their hope. Why is he after us to sin, our nature is to blame not him, but why all the effort on his part. Will God's grace, forgive us if we do not ask?  Trying not to sin, being alert as it says in 1 Peter 5:8 is that not works then, being on my guard. The last enemy to defeat is death, Jesus did that for us if we have made Him our Lord and Savior, Amen
I believe also you can only be born again one time, you can fall away, then you must repent, like Peter did.
Why all the warnings if its just that simple,  I believe my witness points towards the 99 He left behind to find me, so why does that verse in Luke state one saved, which is what it is referring to because we belong to the Shepherd, then the effort of the Holy Spirit to hunt me down and bring me back, from the wages of sin right. the wages of sin is death, Romans. So He comes after me, why, to bring His sheep home safe from what danger, the sheep is unprotected, in this case losing something. The Shepherd coming after that one sheep because he is lost, from the herd, the family. There is good reason for this passage, for the warnings. And Gods unconditional love for us.  If they are truly saved. Say you walk upright for 50 years and your the lost sheep and your devoured by wolves then. You say then he was not truly saved or, its been done, then why the effort to find him? You can justify any answer. Yes He died for our sins, and it comes down to choice,  in all of it {salvation} not truly saved. Are the elite truly saved, if they are the elite, the saved, that will be received. The only way you could lose it, is by your choice. Why would backslide even be a term if repentance was not required. Again Adam and Eve made a choice, as did Satan, as did Judas.  As will you and I. I cannot believe in anything that will bring one to justify sin, to suffer Him more, you must repent always.

2 Tim 2:25   In meekness instructing those who oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth.

May the Lord bless thee and keep thee
only and I mean only always for Christ Jesus
In the love of a brother of the way
gamble
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« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2005, 10:31:40 AM »

Hi ggamble!


I myself have struggled with this topic somewhat.   I know I have discussed it a few times with brother BEP and Allinall.   I'm sort of middle of the road when it comes to OSAS/Backsliding.   Perhaps leaning more to OSAS.  The main reason I guess is that salvation is a free gift.   We are adopted into the family of God when we accept Christ.   He does not dis-own us when we sin.   Yes, he does convict us.   And yes we are going to sin.  Granted, we as believers don't practice sin, but we will sin at times.   When we do, the Holy Spirit convicts us to repent.   Like Paul address, we do the things we don't want to do at times, and don't do the things we know we should.   Who will deliver us from this wretched state we are in?  Christ of course!  By His grace and mercy.

Now then, what happens if we disobey the Holy Spirit and do not repent?   Is there a point when we are no longer His Child (be it a wayward child)?    I don't think there is, but please don't take my word for it.    There is ample warning in scripture about falling away, but there is nothing in scripture about His free gift being taken back...at least that I have read.

I read your testimony, and must say that I can relate to it quite a bit.  Mine is posted in the "Your Story About His Glory" thread.    Some would say I was not saved the first time around, others might say I was and backslid, before returning to Christ.    Like you, I certainly believed I was saved the first time around, and felt His presence in my life.  I also  certainly felt lost when I turned my back on God.     The one thing I think is interesting about both our stories is..... we both find ourselves living for Christ at this moment regardless of what happened between first accepting Christ, and going our own way for a time.   So were we really lost during that dark period of time?   Or had we received His free gift, been adopted, gotten off track, and God came to find His Children?    I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure He was there all the time, even though we were focused on ourselves.   "He is faithful, even when we are not."


Thats just sort of where I am at the moment on this subject.   I can perfectly see where you are coming from regarding this however.   My thinking is, we are His and there's nothing we can do to get away from Him  Wink



Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2005, 10:45:19 AM »

Hello ggamble,

It was against my better judgment to go further and start an argument or a debate, so this will be it for me. Someone else might wish to debate this, but I don't.

No offense, but you are mixing quite a few Scriptures into the discussion that either: 1) don't pertain to Salvation after JESUS and the Cross, 2) or don't deal with Salvation issues at all.

Brother or sister - you haven't said which, it appears that you might have considerable confusion between Law and Grace, most specifically before the Cross and after the Cross. I would suggest that you do a concentrated study on the writings of the Apostle Paul. Start with Ephesians for the best understanding of what changed after the Cross.

A Christian does not lost Salvation because of a sin, repented or not. 100% assurance of Salvation isn't just possible, it is what GOD intended. The devil doesn't want anyone to have 100% assurance of Salvation, and that's the reason why JESUS CHRIST and the CROSS were and are the devil's worst nightmare. My 100% assurance of Salvation is based on JESUS and His finished work on the Cross, NOT ME. If there is any boasting, the boasting is in JESUS alone.

I'll give you a few hints for study, and maybe someone else will wish to argue or debate this with you further. The hints involve the study of Scripture: 1) don't isolate Scripture - study it in context, 2) determine if the portion pertains to before the Cross or after the Cross, 3) isolate Salvation and don't confuse it with exhortations for Christian living, exhortations for Christian testimony, rewards for good works, AND certainly not the Law. The Law NEVER saved anyone in human history, and the same would be true for good works, a person's own righteousness, living without sin, etc., etc., etc. One word will give you the ONLY answer: FAITH. AND, that FAITH will not be in yourself.

Brother or Sister, it would be wonderful if every Christian had 100% assurance of Salvation, and they can. It has nothing to do with self, rather the PROMISES OF GOD to His children. If one wishes to discuss the depth, quality, and joy of fellowship between a believer and JESUS, that is a subject beyond Salvation. It is very sad that many Christians confuse this with Salvation.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 3:21-22 NASB  But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
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« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2005, 02:39:48 PM »

Greeting, 2nd Timothy

Thanks for the OSAS, way to type it, saves some time.
My main point is choice, and the effects of viewing OSAS as being a path of righteousness.
Blackeyedpeas, in his last reply, pointed to facts of before and after the invitation, that I should study. Then one thing that puts danger in the OSAS idea. The danger is to the weaker in the faith, for this very fact he stated. Your saved rather you repented or have unrepented sin, it does not matter. Which throws the scripture in 1John right out the window. About confessing our sins. The danger would give liberty to one to just go and live as if there need not be a changed life. They could just fall back to OSAS and walk on, or I'm under grace. No matter if they quench the Spirit when it comes to convict, and not repent which would be disobedience, which does not empower the Holy Spirit. So one would be leaking or worse yet running on empty.
The invitation is of choice to attend the wedding, and of choice if the party is not to your liking and you decide to leave. There is big danger in the OSAS point of view, for that very reason. I know BEP will read this, and I will have more to reply to his last reply. And I plan to read your witness and thank you for the invite to read it. God gives us revelation in His Word, the warnings are there for a good reason. And we must pay attention to every detail of its interpretation. Because then it is not systematic, which is a works for sure. It can lead to before, after and in between. And BEP, I sign the replies as brother, take no offence. We both believe it is Jesus who saves, in short, but the debate is its choice, which OSAS idealist say is works, verses OSAS in no matter what or how you walk. No boundaries. It's scary to view it that way, and see someone not see it right and walk as they wish, which would hold one accountable for what they taught them.
Hey Tim, brother, sorry I put some of my reply to BEP here, no disrespect to you brother. Keep pressing on.
In closing; it takes acts of obedience, to empower the Holy Spirit, and them acts come from the prompting of the Holy Ghost. The 99 says what I believe too, we are His, but if we resist. Then its a choice we made. It is a free gift, and we must be good stewards to what has been given and good stewards make good choices, we must choose right. We cannot do it, it takes the Holy Spirit to encourage us to do it, we are nothing apart from Him.

May the Lord, bless thee and keep thee
Only always for Christ Jesus
From the Love of A BROTHER in Jesus
gamble

Rev. 19:9  And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
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« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2005, 10:54:40 PM »

Hello Brother GGamble,

I'm glad that you made the Brother part clear. I looked in your profile and didn't see a gender listed, and I must have missed any other mention of your gender. So, I apologize for calling you Brother or Sister in Christ. The important thing is that I think you do belong to Christ. This is much more important than any doctrinal difference we might have, but I really think that we are closer in thought than you think.

I believe strongly that the Walk of a Believer should involve fellowship with JESUS many times per day. Some people might exchange the word "fellowship" with "communion", as our real strength and joy in JESUS comes from prayer, study, thanks, praise, and worship - Not just on Sunday.

The Holy Bible gives many details about the fullness of joy that is possible in JESUS. This is a "JOY" that is unlike anything that the world has to offer, and it is addictive. It's not ironic that this JOY leads to STRENGTH and other riches in CHRIST. These are the Precious and Priceless Treasures that nothing in the world can compare to. ONLY JESUS, our Lord and Saviour, makes us worthy to receive these treasures.

Thanks be unto GOD for HIS unspeakable GIFT!, JESUS CHRIST, our Lord and Saviour forever!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 8:16-18 NASB  The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
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