"The Bible is not the inspired and inerrant word of God"

[cris]

Does anyone else remember door to door salesmen?

[Soldier4Christ]

Does anyone else remember door to door salesmen?

The ones that were are always trying to sell the great big family Bibles? My parents got one and so did my wife and I.

[Soldier4Christ]

Since we are talking versions of the Bible has everyone seen The Message Remix (The Bible in contemporary language) by Eugene Peterson?

I am a KJV advocate and really don't care for the NIV, NASB and other such versions that were done on the works of Westcott and Hort. I don't care for Bibles that are incomplete. To me it is like picking up a novel that has had numerous pages torn out of it and still trying to read it. Perhaps this has to do with my being raised on the KJV, also. It was my first primer.

The Message Remix also sometimes called the Message Bible is one of the worse. It even takes away from the diety of Jesus. Here are a few examples.

The Message

1 John 5:7 A triple testimony: 8 the Spirit, the Baptism, the Crucifixion
.
John 3:16 This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life.

John 4:22 You worship guessing in the dark; we Jews worship in the clear light of day. God's way of salvation is made available through the Jews.

John 10:30 I and the Father are one heart and mind."

John 14:6  6Jesus said, "I am the Road, also the Truth, also the Life. No one gets to the Father apart from me.

[ollie]

Quotes are from gotcha104:

Hi Ollie, here is part of your post:

I had asked: "Now, about that inspired and inerrant Bible that tells us all these things - Do you believe such a thing exists?  If so, name it for us please.  If not, then just tell us so we will know where your are coming from on this vital issue."


Then you ask: "Why? What is your point? What are you trying to prove? Why is this issue vital? What does it have to do with one's faith?"

Hello,

Ollie, it has to do with the central and critical doctrine of an inerrant Bible.

You mean in the saving power of Jesus Christ for having paid the price for sin? I would say your statement is untrue and a display of ignorance of most translations. Including the KJT.

 

What is happening today is that most seminarians and future pastors, and more and more "laity" in the pews, no longer believe The Bible or any bible IS now the inerrant words of God.

Scripturally there is no such thing as a seminarian or a laity. There are pastors. So how can one say any Bible is inerrant when the one saying it seems ignorant of  scriptures.

If you think this is a minor issue, then maybe it is already too late for you.

It is not an issue at all.

  The Bible is the foundation of everything a Christian believes.  It is God's revelation to sinful men.  Satan always tries to get man to question the truth of the Bible and he has been largely successful, particularly in the last 100 years or so.

It would seem that you are trying to get men to question the inerrancy of the Bible. Are you Satin or one of His worshipers, helping to further his cause against God? If so your time is short.

Most Christians today do not believe The Bible IS the inspired and inerrant words of God.

You can only speak for yourself. You donot have the power to judge other hearts in that respect. Only God can do that.

  Sure, there are a lot of verses that are the same (as you pointed out), but there are literally HUNDREDS of verses that are totally different in both meaning and text.

Is the gospel of Christ different in the varying translations? The verses I pointed out were pointed out for showing how we know the spirit of anything is of God. It so happened the verses agreed in most translations. I went on to say that most translations confess Jesus has come in the flesh so we know the spirit in them is of God.

There are anywhere from 17 to 40 entire verses missing in many modern New Testaments like the NIV, RSV.  PLUS a couple thousand other words and phrases completely gone.  God either inspired these words or He didn't.  God either kept His promises to preserve His wordS till heaven and earth pass away, or He lied.

That does not change the message of Christ and His good news one minuscule, found in all the translations mentioned.

Tell me which bible version out there you personally think is the closest to the non-existent and never seen "originals", and I will point out just a few of the many very real and significant differences for you.

If they are nonexistent for me and never seen originals for me, then they are also for you. How could I possibly tell you which Bible is closest to something you say is non existant or never seen? One cannot compare with that which does not exist or has never been seen. Get Real!

 

Is it the NIV, the NASB, NKJV, ESV, or what?  Give it a name and then we will look at some concrete examples rather than theories and speculations, OK?

You have laid out the affirmative of such, It is up to you to present the evidence from non existing and never seen original manuscripts. Is that an oxymoron or what? The Bibles I use have never led me into anything that denies Jesus Christ. Therefore i know they are of God. It is faith, you silly.

I am looking forward to your knowledge on those never seen original, non existing manuscripts.  

Thanks,

Will K

You are very welcome Will K.

ollie

[Rhys]

Versions of the Bible:
     There are too many English language versions and too few in other languages - proving that the real reason for all the new versions is to make money by convincing people they need to buy the latest version.

I use the KJV, but I don't worship it. I am suspicious of the newer versions because of the agenda of those doing the translating. I do use them occasionally to compare translations. My church has abandoned the KJV for the NIV.

One of the real problems with people questioning the authority of Scripture is that most of them seldom read the Bible, much less seriously study it. Instead they rely on what they read or hear ABOUT the Bible, on what they are told by people they believe are "authorities". (Might as well go back to before the Reformation  when the Bible was only in Latin, which no one but the priests could read, and their interpretation of it was all people could know). The Bible in the common tongue, public literacy, and the Reformation all fitted and worked together. The growing Biblical (and general) illiteracy of our country is the greatest threat we face as Christians.  Other media, such as the "Jesus Film" can portray events well, but it takes words (spoken or written) to communicate spiritual concepts. The more complex these concepts are, the harder it is for visual media to communicate them well.
Preaching is good, but its accuracy depends upon the integrity and character of the preacher. Even Paul commended his hearers for checking what he said against the written word of God - which implies they could and did read it!

[nChrist]

gotcha104,

I'm not surprised that you didn't attempt to answer a single one of my questions, and they were the easiest questions I could think of to ask a "King James Only-ist".

I am surprised that I twice tried to explain to you that the Holy Bible is also known as God's Word and the Word of God, but you still didn't get it. Either that or you danced to avoid a single question again.

Here's the bottom line for you. "King James Only'ists" create a credibility problem, not only for themselves, but for Christianity. The reason for the credibility problem is simple and quite evident:  they can't answer simple questions about their position. I just gave you the easiest questions I could think of, and you didn't attempt a single one. Dancing lessons might help you to dance around issues if you even had possible answers or reasonable logic, but you don't have either. So, dancing lessons won't do you any good.

It would be reasonable to present information about why you believe the KJV is the best translation, and that's what you should start doing. You and other "King James Only-ists" paint themselves into a corner that they can't get out of, and it doesn't take a very bright person to prove that they aren't and can't be telling the truth. As a result, Christianity suffers because of the credibility and hypocrisy issues constructed by the "King James Only-ist". So, you are really hurting the unsaved with your stance.

The blunt truth is very simple:

The KJV is just a translation of the Holy Bible.

THE KJV DOES CONTAIN ERRORS, AND ALL TRANSLATIONS DO!

The Holy Bible did exist before 1611 and would exist after 1611 without the KJV.

Some translations of the Holy Bible are only fair, and some are pitiful. In fact, some of the latest translations to come out are awful or contain intentional lies.

The KJV is an excellent translation of the Holy Bible - the best in my OPINION. It's easy to prove that the KJV is an excellent translation and maybe the best.

In conclusion, do yourself and Christianity a favor and simply present information and evidence about the KJV being one of the best translations of the Holy Bible. Stop calling the KJV perfect and without errors BECAUSE IT ISN'T! Don't make claims that don't stand up under simple questions. AND, by all means, please don't make the silly statement that all Bibles except the KJV are works of the devil like some "King James Only-ists" do. WHY? Your claims won't stand. When your claims are shot down, JESUS and the Cross becomes almost impossible to believe.

I want people to believe the truth about JESUS and the Cross, and I would hope that's your highest goal also. I would not want claims about a translation that are impossible to defend to result in disbelief by an unsaved person. Further, you would not want impossible to defend claims to harm the faith of a babe in Christ.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 8:38-39  For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[Reba]

gotcha104,

I'm not surprised that you didn't attempt to answer a single one of my questions, and they were the easiest questions I could think of to ask a "King James Only-ist".

I am surprised that I twice tried to explain to you that the Holy Bible is also known as God's Word and the Word of God, but you still didn't get it. Either that or you danced to avoid a single question again.

Here's the bottom line for you. "King James Only'ists" create a credibility problem, not only for themselves, but for Christianity. The reason for the credibility problem is simple and quite evident:  they can't answer simple questions about their position. I just gave you the easiest questions I could think of, and you didn't attempt a single one. Dancing lessons might help you to dance around issues if you even had possible answers or reasonable logic, but you don't have either. So, dancing lessons won't do you any good.

It would be reasonable to present information about why you believe the KJV is the best translation, and that's what you should start doing. You and other "King James Only-ists" paint themselves into a corner that they can't get out of, and it doesn't take a very bright person to prove that they aren't and can't be telling the truth. As a result, Christianity suffers because of the credibility and hypocrisy issues constructed by the "King James Only-ist". So, you are really hurting the unsaved with your stance.

The blunt truth is very simple:

The KJV is just a translation of the Holy Bible.

THE KJV DOES CONTAIN ERRORS, AND ALL TRANSLATIONS DO!

The Holy Bible did exist before 1611 and would exist after 1611 without the KJV.

Some translations of the Holy Bible are only fair, and some are pitiful. In fact, some of the latest translations to come out are awful or contain intentional lies.

The KJV is an excellent translation of the Holy Bible - the best in my OPINION. It's easy to prove that the KJV is an excellent translation and maybe the best.

In conclusion, do yourself and Christianity a favor and simply present information and evidence about the KJV being one of the best translations of the Holy Bible. Stop calling the KJV perfect and without errors BECAUSE IT ISN'T! Don't make claims that don't stand up under simple questions. AND, by all means, please don't make the silly statement that all Bibles except the KJV are works of the devil like some "King James Only-ists" do. WHY? Your claims won't stand. When your claims are shot down, JESUS and the Cross becomes almost impossible to believe.

I want people to believe the truth about JESUS and the Cross, and I would hope that's your highest goal also. I would not want claims about a translation that are impossible to defend to result in disbelief by an unsaved person. Further, you would not want impossible to defend claims to harm the faith of a babe in Christ.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 8:38-39  For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Yeah what he said  

Well said Mr. Bepster worth repeating....

[Reba]

Ollie, it has to do with the central and critical doctrine of an inerrant Bible.  What is happening today is that most seminarians and future pastors, and more and more "laity" in the pews, no longer believe The Bible or any bible IS now the inerrant words of God.

Hi Reba, nice question.  A little tricky, but nice.  Some of the words recorded here were spoken by Satan, but they are recorded in the Bible, and as such, they form part of the word of God.

I high lighted a couple words in the  above now tell me are the words of satan the inerrant words of God? In your quote to Ollie you say "words of God" to me you say "word of God". Which is it?


Was the KJV ever corrected?

[brandplucked]

Hi all, sorry about confusing Tom and Cris, my mistake.  Thanks for the correction.

BP asked:

Tell us EXACTLY where this word of God existed before the KJB and more importantly, exactly where it exists now,

You said:  "In our hearts - same place it exists now and forever.  

The written Word simply strengthens the resolve in Him already present in our hearts via the Spirit.  To me, arguing versions of the written word makes about as much sense as arguing that a particular spoken accent is better than another - but it isn't Billy Graham's southern accent that saves folks - it's his ability to awaken the Word that is already a seed in each man's heart.

Fairly heated discussion for a non-salvation issue."

Hi Judge not, I'm afraid you are off in the land of mysticism and make believe with your idea that "the word of God" was and always will be in our hearts, and particularly with the last statement about "the written Word's ability to awaken the Word that is already a seed in each man's heart."

JN, this is totally against the sound doctrine of the Bible, and it is New Age Mysticism.  There is no "seed" within each man's heart to begin with.  There is no divine spark that needs to be awakened.

The Bible teaches that the natural man is dead spiritually and has no desire for the true God.  It is the written or spoken words of God that are essential to the new birth.

James 1:18 "Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures."

Your idea that somehow the word of God is natually in every man's heart is pure New Age theology - it is not at all what the Bible (any bible) teaches.

You are going off into the area of "What is true for you may not be true for me".  God does write His laws in the hearts of those who have been born again by the written word, but only these and no others.  And if this  "word in our hearts" does not agree with the written words in the inerrant Bible, then something is seriously wrong.  

The ideas you just expressed are not what is taught in the Bible at all.  I hope you can see this.

Will K

[brandplucked]

Hi Tom, bottom line again.  You say very clearly: "THE KJV DOES CONTAIN ERRORS, AND ALL TRANSLATIONS DO!"

Tom, it is clear that you yourself believe that every Bible version every person here is reading "contains errors".  Therefore, it is your stated opinion that there is no inerrant Bible.  This has been and continues to be my main point.  You just confirmed it.

I have read through all the responses and posts here, and so far not a single person has come right out and affirmed that any Bible or any text in any language IS NOW the inerrant, complete and infallible words of God.

Did you bother to read through the original post that started this whole conversation?  Did you read about how recent polls show that most future pastors do not believe the Scriptures are inerrant?

Did you read what the Bible says about itself and how God promised to preserve His words in a Book here on this earth till heaven and earth pass away?

Do you have such a Book?  What is it called and where can we get a copy?  You tell us that all translations have errors .  OK, then, exactly where can we find the inerrant Bible?  Or is it your belief that no such thing exists on this earth?

Will K

[curious]

Not exactly Brand,if you take something & put it into another language.You are either going to lose something in the translation or you are going to mess it up.Alot of it is in correct though.Could it be that alot don't WANT to know what  it it saying ? So they can keep on doing what they are doing.

[nChrist]

gotcha104,

Your arguments and logic are perfect examples of why many groups of "KJV-Only-ists" rise to near cult status. Actually, the circular type of logic and arguments issued do nothing except cause division among Christians and doubt in the Holy Bible. The KJV falls victim in the argument also.
__________________
For Numerous Articles & Links:
http://www.kjvonly.org/

This website is dedicated to the defense of the Bible as originally  written, against the flood of falsehood propagated  by King James Onlyism.

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God" (II Timothy 3:16a)
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good" (I Thes 5:21)
__________________

Your argument also obtains some unintended results - doubt of the KJV. If the older texts and manuscripts the KJV was derived from are not the inspired Word of God, neither is the KJV. You've already advanced the notion that the translators of the KJV could have been inspired and, thus, the KJV becomes the inspired and the older texts and manuscripts it was derived from should be ignored in favor of the KJV. BUT, this doesn't work because of the large number of obvious errors and revisions in the KJV.

My conclusions are fairly simple. "KJV-Only-ists" do approach cult-type status, harm the whole of Christianity, and do not serve God with their destructive and divisive claims.

I found it funny that nearly all of your arguments are like the talking points of politicians. They also want to stick to their talking points and avoid questions. The link I provided above will repeat your talking points and others, but it will also debunk the "KJV-Only-ists" positions and prove why other Christians should not join that cult with you. In the meantime, the KJV remains an excellent translation, maybe ONE of the best.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 8:28  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

[brandplucked]

Not exactly Brand,if you take something & put it into another language.You are either going to lose something in the translation or you are going to mess it up.Alot of it is in correct though.Could it be that alot don't WANT to know what  it it saying ? So they can keep on doing what they are doing.

Hi Curious, I agree with the second point, but not the first.  God has no problem translating from one language to another.  He did this many times in the Bible itself.  Did you see my little article about Can a Translation be Inspired?

God bless,

Will K

[brandplucked]

Versions of the Bible:
     There are too many English language versions and too few in other languages - proving that the real reason for all the new versions is to make money by convincing people they need to buy the latest version....

My church has abandoned the KJV for the NIV.

One of the real problems with people questioning the authority of Scripture is that most of them seldom read the Bible, much less seriously study it.

Hi Rhys, I agree that a lot of the reason for so many new versions is to make money.  I'm sorry to hear your church has abandoned the true Holy Bible for an inferiour perversion.

The NIV is not the true Bible.  It perverts sound doctrine in several ways; it rejects many Hebrew readings, and omits some 5000 words from the New Testament.

I also agree that most Christians today are woefully ignorant of what the Bible teaches.  I believe this is all part of the falling away predicted in the Bible.  God Himself is sending a famine into the land.

Here is part of a recent article showing how "the cream of the crop", from most evangelical churches are Biblically ignorant, and this article was not written by a King James Bible onlyist.

By David Alan Black

The Covenant News ~ May 13, 2005

Our God could have spoken to us in a heavenly language that no one would have understood. Instead, He revealed Himself through a book we call the Bible and in a message all can understand. It is a gory, bloody story, repulsive to the “refined” among us. It is foolishness to this age, for the cross is a scandal to unregenerate Adam.
Never has evangelical Christianity needed this message more than today.

For several years, my friend Gary Burge, who serves as Professor of New Testament at Wheaton College in Wheaton, Illinois, has been testing incoming freshmen on their knowledge of the Bible. What he has discovered is shocking.

 These students from evangelical churches could average only 50 to 55 percent correct on his simple exam. Burge points to the results of his tests to prove that we are living in a post-Christian era.

We can be strong in the Lord only as we are strong in His Word.  How well do you really know God’s Word? Try testing it with Burge’s quiz and then check your answers with the key. If we should discover that we are biblical illiterates, may the grace of God lead us to repentance!

1. Which one of these books is not in the Bible?
a. Isaiah; b. Jude; c. Hezekiah; d. Amos; e. Song of Solomon
2. Who was Israel’s first king?
a. Saul; b. Solomon; c. David; d. Samuel; e. Moses
3. Sarah and Abraham had a son in their old age and named him “laughter.” What was his real name?
a. Samuel; b. Moses; c. Isaac; d. Jacob; e. Ishmael
4. Which of the following is not an Old Testament prophet?
a. Elisha; b. Elijah; c. Aaron; d. Isaiah; e. Joel
5. Place these events in their biblical order:
a. the giving of the law at Mount Sinai; b. Creation; c. the Fall; d. the Exodus led by Moses; e. the flood of Noah
6. Place the following characters in their biblical order:
a. Moses; b. Adam; c. David; d. Solomon; e. Abraham
7. Which of the following books is from the New Testament?
a. Judges; b. Malachi; c. Deuteronomy; d. Hebrews; e. Isaiah
8. Who wrote Philemon?
a. Philemon; b. Paul; c. Peter; d. Onesimus; e. John
9. Which one of the following was among Jesus’ 12 apostles?
a. Paul; b. Matthew; c. Luke; d. Timothy; e. Silas
10. Whom did Pontius Pilate release during Jesus’ trial?
a. Barnabas; b. Peter; c. Silas; d. Barabbas; e. Paul
11. How many temptations did Jesus face in the wilderness?
a. one; b. two; c. three; d. four; e. five
12. Place the following events in their biblical order:
a. The Holy Spirit descends on Pentecost; b. John has a vision on Patmos; c. Jesus is baptized in the Jordan River; d. Paul, Barnabas and Mark are sent out on a mission by the church; e. Peter denies that he knows Jesus
13. Place the following events in their biblical order:
a. Paul’s arrest in Jerusalem; b. Mary’s song; c. Nicodemus’ conversation about rebirth; d. Peter’s denial of Jesus
14. Where would you find the Ten Commandments?
a. Isaiah; b. Exodus; c. Genesis; d. Numbers; e. Matthew
15. Where would you find the first Passover?
a. Genesis; b. Numbers; c. 1 Samuel; d. Exodus; e. 2 Kings
16. Where would you find “Create in me a clean heart, O God”?
a. Proverbs; b. Ezekiel; c. Psalms; d. Deuteronomy; e. Luke
17. Where would you find the Lord’s Prayer?
a. Matthew; b. Acts; c. Ephesians; d. Malachi; e. Isaiah
18. Where would you find “in the beginning was the Word”?
a. Acts; b. Isaiah; c. John; d. Leviticus; e. Romans
19. Elizabeth and Zechariah were the parents of:
a. Jesus; b. Samuel; c. Paul; d. Timothy; e. John the Baptist
20. Jesus was crucified during:
a. Passover; b. Hannukah; c. Tabernacles; d. Sabbath; e. Purim

Click Here for Answers

Dave Black
daveblack@daveblackonline.com

[brandplucked]

gotcha104,

Your arguments and logic are perfect examples of why many groups of "KJV-Only-ists" rise to near cult status. Actually, the circular type of logic and arguments issued do nothing except cause division among Christians and doubt in the Holy Bible.
This website is dedicated to the defense of the Bible as originally  written, against the flood of falsehood propagated  by King James Onlyism."

Hi BEP, I find your post to be highly ironic.  Brother, it is not the King James Only people who are the ones telling people that "There is no inerrant Scripture or translation"  - YOU are.

We are affirming the truth that God has given us an infallible Bible.  But in your opinion, those who deny there is such a thing as an inerrant, inspired and complete Bible of any kind are now "orthodox", and we who believe there is such a thing as The Inerrant Holy Bible that we can actually hold in our hands and believe every word, are now "a cult".  The irony is simply overwhelming.


You continue with:  "Your argument also obtains some unintended results - doubt of the KJV. If the older texts and manuscripts the KJV was derived from are not the inspired Word of God, neither is the KJV. You've already advanced the notion that the translators of the KJV could have been inspired and, thus, the KJV becomes the inspired and the older texts and manuscripts it was derived from should be ignored in favor of the KJV. BUT, this doesn't work because of the large number of obvious errors and revisions in the KJV.

My conclusions are fairly simple. "KJV-Only-ists" do approach cult-type status, harm the whole of Christianity, and do not serve God with their destructive and divisive claims."

BEP, We by no means deny the inspiration of the underlying Hebrew and Greek texts which were providentially used by God and translated into the English language of the King James Bible.

Rather it is your side, the Whateverists, the "No translation is inerrant", the "No Bible is inspired", the Bible of the Month Club members like yourself who affirm that all Hebrew texts have been corrupted and that no one can be sure which Greek texts are the true ones.

Why don't you come right out and say it very plainly?  You have already told us in plain words that "no translation is without error".  So just finish the line of your own logic and admit what we all know you really believe - "The Bible is not the inspired and inerrant word(s) of God".

Just admit it, BEP, and be done with it.  The truth will make you free.  

I also find it interesting that people like yourself who think all Bible translations have errors in them, have yet to "correct" them all and given to the world the "perfect Bible with no errors".  If you know where all the errors are, why haven't you  come up with a bible that is totally true?

We do live in interesting times.

May God have mercy on His people.

Will