"The Bible is not the inspired and inerrant word of God"

[nChrist]

gotcha104,

I was using your logic, not mine. I didn't expect you to answer my questions using your logic, mainly because you can't. The questions were based on your statements, not mine.

By the way, I'm fully aware of the fact that the "Word" is Jesus Christ, but I'm also aware that "Word" is capitalized in "God's Word". The obvious switch you made simply avoided questions based on your own statements and logic. "God's Word", the Holy Bible, has survived and will survive with or without King James or any other group of translators. You know that and so do I. God's Word was preached and studied before King James, and the same will be true after King James, with or without the KJV. You also know that and so do I.

Now, if you would be so kind, go back and answer the questions I asked about your own statements and your own logic. You can't, you know you can't, and I know you can't.

I'll repeat that I agree with many of your statements, but you go way too far. I'll also repeat that I believe the KJV to be the best translation.

If you can't or don't wish to attempt an answer to my questions about your own statements and logic, just say so. If you answer my questions one by one as asked, I'll answer your questions. Remember, it's your logic and statements we are discussing - not mine.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Colossians 1:12-14  Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

[cris]

Well, if Mrs. Chosen were here she'd say, "here we go again."  


Yessirrebob, it's gittin' hot in this here kitchen.

[ollie]

I just looked at the words...    Word as in John 1:1 and word as in John 2 :22

The given meaning is the same according to esword. No change because of the capital W. The inerrent scriptures plainly say ...

John 1:1
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
KJV

Chris, first of all "the Word" (capital letter) refers to the Son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ.  "the word" or "the words of God" refers to His written revelation.  Without this written revelation called The Bible we are in total darkness about Who God is and what He has done for His people in Christ.

Rom 1:19-20

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
KJV

Hi Reba, thanks for your comments.  Every Bible I am aware of makes the distinction between the Word (capital letter) referring to the Son of God, and "the word" (small letter) referring to the written or spoken word.

Is esword your inspired Bible?  You have yet to tell us if you believe The Bible or any bible or any text out there in wonderland is the inerrant, complete and infallible words of God.  Could you do that for us please?

As for the very good reference you gave us in Romans 1, I am well aware of this verse, but all it proves is we can know by the creation only two things about God -#1 He exists and #2 He is powerful.  Without the written revelation from God as found in The Bible, we know absolutely nothing about Who He is, What He is like, Who the Son of God is, and what He has done for His people.

We also would know nothing at all about the true nature of man, how man responds to the covenants of God, prophesy, the fall of Satan, the entrance of sin, the redemption in Christ or any number of hundreds of other divine revelations.

If we did not have the Bible, we would all be heathens and pagans.

Now, about that inspired and inerrant Bible that tells us all these things - Do you believe such a thing exists?  If so, name it for us please.  If not, then just tell us so we will know where your are coming from on this vital issue.

God bless,

Will K

"Now, about that inspired and inerrant Bible that tells us all these things - Do you believe such a thing exists?  If so, name it for us please.  If not, then just tell us so we will know where your are coming from on this vital issue."

Why? What is your point? What are you trying to prove? Why is this issue vital? What does it have to do with one's faith?

The inerrant word of God:

"-- King James
1 John 4:1  Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

-- American Standard
1 John 4:1  Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

-- Living Bible
1 John 4:1  Dearly loved friends, don't always believe everything you hear just because someone says it is a message from God: test it first to see if it really is. For there are many false teachers around,

-- Revised Standard
1 John 4:1  BELOVED, DO not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world.  

-- Simple English
1 John 4:1  My dear , many false prophets are now in the world. So, don't believe every spirit. Test the spirits to see whether they are from God.

-- Transliterated, Pronounceable
1 John 4:1  Agapeetoi', mee' panti' pneu'mati pisteu'ete alla'dokima'zete ta' pneu'mata ei ek tou' Theou' estin, ho'ti polloi'pseudoprofee'tai exeleelu'thasin eis to'n ko'smon.

-- Transliterated, Unaccented
1 John 4:1  Agapetoi, me panti pneumati pisteuete alladokimazete ta pneumata ei ek tou Theou estin, hoti polloipseudoprofetai exeleluthasin eis ton kosmon.

-- New Jerusalem with Apocrypha
1 John 4:1  My dear friends, not every spirit is to be trusted,
but test the spirits to see whether they are from God,
for many false prophets are at large in the world.


-- Young's Bible
1 John 4:1  Beloved, every spirit believe not, but prove the spirits, if of God they are, because many false prophets have gone forth to the world;

-- Darby's Bible
1 John 4:1  Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, if they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

-- Weymouth's New Testament
1 John 4:1  Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but put the spirits to the test to see whether they are from God; for many false teachers have gone out into the world.

-- Webster's Bible
1 John 4:1  Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets have gone out into the world."


-- King James
1 John 4:2  Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

-- American Standard
1 John 4:2  Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

-- Living Bible
1 John 4:2  and the way to find out if their message is from the Holy Spirit is to ask: Does it really agree that Jesus Christ, God's Son, actually became man with a human body? If so, then the message is from God.

-- Revised Standard
1 John 4:2  By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,  

-- Simple English
1 John 4:2  This is how you can recognize God's Spirit: One Spirit says, ``I believe that Jesus is the Christ. Jesus came to earth and became a human being.'' That Spirit is from God.

-- Transliterated, Pronounceable
1 John 4:2  Entou'too ginoo'skete to' Pneu'ma tou' Theou', pa'n pneu'ma ho'homologei' Ieesou'n Christo'n en sarki' eleelutho'ta ek tou'Theou' estin,

-- Transliterated, Unaccented
1 John 4:2  Entouto ginoskete to Pneuma tou Theou, pan pneuma hohomologei Iesoun Christon en sarki eleluthota ek touTheou estin,

-- New Jerusalem with Apocrypha
1 John 4:2  This is the proof of the spirit of God:
any spirit which acknowledges Jesus Christ, come in human nature,
is from God,


-- Young's Bible
1 John 4:2  in this know ye the Spirit of God; every spirit that doth confess Jesus Christ in the flesh having come, of God it is,

-- Darby's Bible
1 John 4:2  Hereby ye know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses Jesus Christ come in flesh is of God;

-- Weymouth's New Testament
1 John 4:2  The test by which you may recognize the Spirit of God is that every spirit which acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come as man is from God,

-- Webster's Bible
1 John 4:2  By this ye know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ hath come in the flesh, is from God:"

All the translations I have studied make this confession about Jesus Christ, so they must be of God.

ollie

[Reba]

Matt 4:8-9

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
KJV


Tell me are these the words of God?

[JudgeNot]

Matt 4:9
9 All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
KJV
Tell me are these the words of God?

They are Satan's words as retold by God.
(I figure since He was there for that little chat, He knows exactly what Satan said.)  

[nChrist]

I would simply like to say or sing:

"Thank you LORD for saving my soul,
Thank you LORD for making me whole."

[Reba]

Amen

                      _{\      /}
                       

[brandplucked]

gotcha104,
 "God's Word", the Holy Bible, has survived and will survive with or without King James or any other group of translators. You know that and so do I. God's Word was preached and studied before King James, and the same will be true after King James, with or without the KJV......I'll also repeat that I believe the KJV to be the best translation.


Love In Christ,
Tom

Hi Tom, thanks for the response and agreeing that the title "the Word" or "the Word of God" refers to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Tom, I don't believe I avoided or refused to answer your questions.  My initial post clearly shows that most Christians today do not believe any Bible or any single text in any language IS now the inerrant, complete, and infallible words of God.  Neither do you.

You have not identified what this inerrant Bible is called and you think the KJB has errors in it.  So, if any bible version has errors in it, then to that degree it cannot be the inerrant words of God.

You seem to be equating "the word of God" to "the gospel of salvation".  This is not strickly accurate at all.  When I speak of The Bible, I am referring to the entire 66 books compiled into one single Book that includes the whole counsel of God and all that He has chosen to reveal to us.

Do you have or do you believe in such an inerrant and complete Book?  Apparently, in your view, it is not the King James Bible, so exactly what are you referring to when you talk about "The Holy Bible" which has survived before and after the KJB?

Tom, spell it out for us in very clear terms, OK?  It seems you are using pious sounding words that have no real substance.  If I am wrong about this, then please correct how I am misunderstanding what you are trying to say.

Where was this "The Holy Bible" before the King James Bible, and where is it now?  Where can I get a copy of it?

These are simple and direct questions.  I hope you will not avoid answering them.  You tell me I have avoided answering yours, and I fail to see how I did that.  Then you tell me you are not going to answer mine until I answer yours.  Who is really doing the avoiding here?

Please give us a straight up answer to these simple questions I just posted again, so we will all know exactly where you are coming from on this vital issue.  Thanks,

Will K

[brandplucked]

Hi Ollie, here is part of your post:

I had asked: "Now, about that inspired and inerrant Bible that tells us all these things - Do you believe such a thing exists?  If so, name it for us please.  If not, then just tell us so we will know where your are coming from on this vital issue."


Then you ask: "Why? What is your point? What are you trying to prove? Why is this issue vital? What does it have to do with one's faith?"

Ollie, it has to do with the central and critical doctrine of an inerrant Bible.  What is happening today is that most seminarians and future pastors, and more and more "laity" in the pews, no longer believe The Bible or any bible IS now the inerrant words of God.

If you think this is a minor issue, then maybe it is already too late for you.  The Bible is the foundation of everything a Christian believes.  It is God's revelation to sinful men.  Satan always tries to get man to question the truth of the Bible and he has been largely successful, particularly in the last 100 years or so.

Most Christians today do not believe The Bible IS the inspired and inerrant words of God.  Sure, there are a lot of verses that are the same (as you pointed out), but there are literally HUNDREDS of verses that are totally different in both meaning and text.

There are anywhere from 17 to 40 entire verses missing in many modern New Testaments like the NIV, RSV.  PLUS a couple thousand other words and phrases completely gone.  God either inspired these words or He didn't.  God either kept His promises to preserve His wordS till heaven and earth pass away, or He lied.

Tell me which bible version out there you personally think is the closest to the non-existent and never seen "originals", and I will point out just a few of the many very real and significant differences for you.  Is it the NIV, the NASB, NKJV, ESV, or what?  Give it a name and then we will look at some concrete examples rather than theories and speculations, OK?

Thanks,

Will K

[cris]

OK gotcha104..................what's your point in all of this?  The bottom line....................let's have it.

[brandplucked]

Matt 4:8-9

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
KJV


Tell me are these the words of God?

Hi Reba, nice question.  A little tricky, but nice.  Some of the words recorded here were spoken by Satan, but they are recorded in the Bible, and as such, they form part of the word of God.

Now, being less tricky, but more critical to the issue at hand (The inerrant Bible), are Matthew 6:13 "For thine is the kingdom and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.";  Matthew 17:21 "Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting"; Matthew 18:11 "For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost", and Matthew 23:14 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation"----are all these verses inspired Scripture or not?

Are you aware that the NIV, ESV omit them from the text?  The nasb differs from one edition to the next, some omitting the verses and others putting them in brackets, indicating that they are not inspired Scripture.
 

These are just 4 examples of a hundred I could give you.

Did God inspire these words or not.  Remember, the Lord Jesus said "heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away", and all these 4 examples are the words of Jesus or they aren't.  So which is it?  Either the KJB added these words, in which case it is a false bible with errors, or the NIV omitted them, and it is false.  You can't have it both ways.

Awaiting your thoughts.

God bless,

Will

[brandplucked]

OK gotcha104..................what's your point in all of this?  The bottom line....................let's have it.

Tom, I must confess, I'm a little surprised you don't clearly see what I'm getting at.  It is in the very title of this thread.

Most Christians today do NOT BELIEVE The Bible (any Bible or any text in any language, be it Hebrew, Greek, Swalhili or whatever) ----do not believe The Bible IS NOW the inerrant and inspired words of God and all we need for our faith and practice.

Many "doctrinal beliefs" sections on many internet sites blithely site something like "we believe the Scriptures are the inerrant word of God", yet when you ask them to tell you what these Scriptures are called and where we can get a copy of them, then they begin the soft shoe shuffle routine, accompanied with baloons and dancing bears, about "only the originals were inspired", and thus today we do not have an inerrant Bible but only differing, conflicting and contradictory ballpark approximations found in multiple choice "reliable versions", that nobody considers to actually BE the inerrant words of God.

This is the bottom line, and it still holds true.  It is true of you and it is true of most members on this forum.

I believe God has kept His promises.  He did not lie to us.  He has given the world His inerrant and complete words and all the evidence clearly points to the King James Bible as being The true and inerrant word of God.  This is my point.

What do you think?

Will K

[Soldier4Christ]

OK gotcha104..................what's your point in all of this?  The bottom line....................let's have it.

Tom, I must confess, I'm a little surprised you don't clearly see what I'm getting at.  It is in the very title of this thread.

Most Christians today do NOT BELIEVE The Bible (any Bible or any text in any language, be it Hebrew, Greek, Swalhili or whatever) ----do not believe The Bible IS NOW the inerrant and inspired words of God and all we need for our faith and practice.

Many "doctrinal beliefs" sections on many internet sites blithely site something like "we believe the Scriptures are the inerrant word of God", yet when you ask them to tell you what these Scriptures are called and where we can get a copy of them, then they begin the soft shoe shuffle routine, accompanied with baloons and dancing bears, about "only the originals were inspired", and thus today we do not have an inerrant Bible but only differing, conflicting and contradictory ballpark approximations found in multiple choice "reliable versions", that nobody considers to actually BE the inerrant words of God.

This is the bottom line, and it still holds true.  It is true of you and it is true of most members on this forum.

I believe God has kept His promises.  He did not lie to us.  He has given the world His inerrant and complete words and all the evidence clearly points to the King James Bible as being The true and inerrant word of God.  This is my point.

What do you think?

Will K

That was Cris that you quoted last not Tom.

[JudgeNot]

BP asked:

Tell us EXACTLY where this word of God existed before the KJB and more importantly, exactly where it exists now,

In our hearts - same place it exists now and forever.  

The written Word simply strengthens the resolve in Him already present in our hearts via the Spirit.  To me, arguing versions of the written word makes about as much sense as arguing that a particular spoken accent is better than another - but it isn't Billy Graham's southern accent that saves folks - it's his ability to awaken the Word that is already a seed in each man's heart.

Fairly heated discussion for a non-salvation issue.

[cris]

OK gotcha104..................what's your point in all of this?  The bottom line....................let's have it.

It did sorta sound like something BEP would say though.