Forgiveness

[Bronzesnake]

They were truly repentant for deeds done when they were "younger" I say, it's good to get it out in the open, but it cannot stop there. True repentance dictates that these men must pay their debt to society when a crime such as that has been committed. Or is it enough for the victim to forgive?

Any thoughts?

Brother John,

As you knowq in my case, it was enough for me to forgive. As long as Henry has repentanced, against his sin. What he has done, and is doing I fully believe he is repentanced of his sin. I have forgiven Henry, he may need never to worry about me. He also know that, he may e-mail me for information on the Bible. I will bring, or send him the information he needs.

Resting with the Lord.
Bob

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you in (with) water because of repentance [that is, because of your changing your minds for the better, heartily amending your ways, with abhorrence of your past sins]. But He Who is coming after me is mightier than I, Whose sandals I am not worthy or fit to take off or carry; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

 Brother Bob, you are truely a man after God's heart, as is Tabitha. Such forgiveness in the face of such horror is a powerful testimony to your faith and trust in Jesus.

 However, shouldn't we also be accountable to the laws of the land? Don't murderers and child molesters have to be accountable in front of the courts? Even if they are truely repentant, and never commit such horrible crimes ever again, even if the victims have forgiven them, they are still accountable to our laws.

 I understand what you are saying Bob and Tabitha. It is enough for you personally - that forgiveness and repentance are at the forefront, and no amount of jail time would turn back the hands of time, or ease your burden. However, I still believe that if the perpetrators of these tragic crimes were truely repentant, they would willingly turn themselves over to the courts, and accept the punishment which the courts bestowed upon them.

 God bless you both, you are an inspiration for us all.

John

[Shammu]

However, shouldn't we also be accountable to the laws of the land? Don't murderers and child molesters have to be accountable in front of the courts? Even if they are truely repentant, and never commit such horrible crimes ever again, even if the victims have forgiven them, they are still accountable to our laws.

It is clear to me that when the law on the books says the speed limit is 65 mph, then it is my duty to God to obey that law, and that if I drive 75 mph I am in violation of not only the civil law, but the law of God.  

When someone has committed a public sin and brought reproach on the church and on the good name Christian, it is customary and it is proper that, when this person repents and turns to God, that this person make their change of life known to other Christians.   The purpose for this public acknowlegement of correction of sin is threefold:  
1. to make fellow Christians aware of the change in the life of their brother/sister,  
2. fellow Christians will rejoice with the one who has repented and turned to God, and
3. fellow Christians will support and encourage the repentant Christian in his/her change of life.

Matt 6:14-15 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

You realize that there are two kinds laws, both God's and civil, which we can commit.  Laws where there is no lasting consequence, such as ocassionally going over the speed limit, or ocassionally saying a dirty word.  If we make these our habit and our lifestyle, we will have real problems and will have to deal with it.  But if it is almost accidental, and a slip, then we can correct that between us and God; we don't usually have to bother other people with it.

I have seen situations where fellow Christians have said to the repentant person that they could not forgive them, because their repentance was not enough.  This is related to what John the Baptist said to the Jews, "bring forth fruits worthy of repentance."  But we must never forget that it is God who forgives the sinner, and who tells us that we must forgive, we have no choice:

Rom 13:1-6 1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.  Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.  For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.  Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.   (KJV)

Governments are ordained by God, to perform definite functions in God's overall scheme of things, such as law enforcement and national defense.

Resting with the Lord.
Bob

Ezra 10:14 Let our officials stand for the whole assembly; let all in our cities who have foreign wives come by appointment, and with each group the elders of that city and its judges, until the fierce wrath of our God over this matter is turned away from us.

[Tabitha]

However, shouldn't we also be accountable to the laws of the land? Don't murderers and child molesters have to be accountable in front of the courts? Even if they are truely repentant, and never commit such horrible crimes ever again, even if the victims have forgiven them, they are still accountable to our laws.

On one hand I agree. In an ideal situation, people who break the law should be bound by the laws of the land, as you put it. Being truly repentant means that you are willing to make amends to give your victims peace. If that's admitting before a court of law that you committed a crime, then so be it. There's also the fear of relapsing into that way of life again, and don't the people who are raising their children around you have a right to know what you have done? Thinking about  Dylan and Shasta... Can you be absolutely sure that the person isn't manipulating you in order to weasle out of their responsibility? Ultimately, we have to forgive those who sin against us, but I don't think its wrong to ask for justice our loved ones and ourselves.

On the other hand, I have to respectfully disagree with Dreamweaver. Call me paranoid, but I don't trust the laws of this land. The laws and rulings are not just and the state's protection of prisoners is a joke. Especially in the case of a convicted child molestor, I have serious concerns over the safety for that person; rape and abuse is never justice, even with sexual predators. If the person was genuine in their apology and was starting on the right track, could a newfound faith stand that kind of trauma? Where is the line between justice and revenge? I don't know.  

[nChrist]

Sister Tabitha,

I certainly think that prison systems have a responsibility to protect even child molesters, and they have systems in place to do that. Most systems call it protective custody, and it usually consists of separate lock-down areas.

I would first have to say that my first concern about child molesters is to stop them from victimizing any more children. This would be the top priority. Long term statistics indicate that once a child molester, always a child molester. Their crimes are especially gruesome because they ruin an entire life for many of their victims. So, I would obviously say that protection of the child molester is secondary to protecting innocent children from being victimized.

There are far too many children still being victimized, and child molesters are still being let out to add to their victim list. The system must be fixed and improved in this area. This is a much worse problem that protecting child molesters in prison. I think the only reasonable thought is to lock up first time child molesters for lengthy periods of time and repeat offenders forever. I have no problem with trying to make it safer for child molesters in prison, but let's make it safer for the innocent children first.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Hebrews 13:20-21 ASV  Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an eternal covenant, even our Lord Jesus, make you perfect in every good thing to do his will, working in us that which is well-pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.

[SelahJoy]

wow, this is a very personal, very powerful thread

Tabitha,

my heart is touched by your story.  I too was abused.  The prior post which I wrote contains the things that I have done to seek to forgive.  As I was reading the posts, I was reminded of things forgiven and I think you are right, forgiving the harder ones, like rape and murder, help forgive the simpler.

I'd like to encourage you to consider what you might need to further heal.  Since I don't know you, my thoughts may not be relevant.  But when I was overwhelmed by the emotional pain and oppression caused from my past, I sought out Christian women who would pray for me.  I remember one time calling someone on the phone while in tears and just asking them to read the Bible to me.  I knew I was a baby asking for the milk of the word, but sometimes getting ministered to like that helped me.  (I still love it    After taking the painful memories to God over and over and over and over, I finally can honestly say that there is freedom in Jesus Christ.

Actually, I am amazed!     because I see God's priniciples working in my life in many areas and on many levels.  So I just cannot say enough good stuff about praying, praising God, and crying out to Him.  He has become so close to me.  It's amazing.  I feel like a changed woman.  I hope it is okay to testify like this.  I really am boasting in the Lord.  I always wanted closeness with God and I have found it in prayer, praise and worship--even in crying out in anguish--He is there.  Praise God!  

I hope that you can smile even though the thoughts of what happened may be painful.  You are never alone when abiding in the lifechanging word of God.  He lives in your praises.

Dreamweaver, there is a song sung by Michael John Poirier called "Love is Stronger."  Before I became a Christian, about ten years ago because I've been a Christian for six years, I heard him sing this song.  I loved it so much and it has always reminded me of my family in Texas.

They found that my nephew was murdered by drug dealers.  Since I don't live near Texas, I couldn't go with them, but they went to court and went through all that.

I know it was the love of Jesus that has kept my parents in Christ's mind and heart toward the murderers.  I wish I could send you the beautiful melody, but I can key in the lyrics.  Be blessed, Big Bro.

LOVE IS STRONGER
In the early hours, the telephone rang
shattering peaceful dreams
A precious life was taken in the night
police report said "Homicide"
Drunks at the wheel, theives who kill, a lover's fatal fight
leave the families of the victims, still reaching for the light

Why God, must there be such evil in this world?
Why God must there be such sorrow?

And the courtroom technicalities desecrate our memories
The family versus the accused
every lawyer has his job to do
While the anger rages how do we turn the other cheek?
How do we love despite the evil done?
How do we forgive the guilty one?

Why God, must there be such evil in this world?
Why God, must there be such sorrow?
Why God, must there be such evil in this world?
Why God, and how do we face tomorrow?

O MY grieving child, the choice is yours to make:
to forgive or lose everything to hate
Come and let me hold you through the anger and the pain

I'll show you love is stronger,
love will conquer,
love will never fail

Let ME give you grace to fight the evil in this world
strength to forgive and carry on
I'll hold you through the anger and the pain
and show you love is stronger,
love will conquer
love will never fail

Love is stronger
love will conquer
love will never fail
MY love is stronger...
MY love will conquer...MY love will never fail.

Dreamweaver, I feel I must tell you the songwriter lost his grandmother to murder.  I am confident that he wrote and sang the song from his experience and heartfelt forgiveness.

May we, all of us, learn to forgive.

selahjoy*

[nChrist]

SelahJoy,

AMEN AND AMEN SISTER!! Your post was beautiful and touched my heart. Thank you!

Love in Christ,
Tom

Colossians 1:12-14 ASV  giving thanks unto the Father, who made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light;  who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love;  in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins:

[Tabitha]

Sister Tabitha,

I certainly think that prison systems have a responsibility to protect even child molesters, and they have systems in place to do that. Most systems call it protective custody, and it usually consists of separate lock-down areas.

I would first have to say that my first concern about child molesters is to stop them from victimizing any more children. This would be the top priority. Long term statistics indicate that once a child molester, always a child molester. Their crimes are especially gruesome because they ruin an entire life for many of their victims. So, I would obviously say that protection of the child molester is secondary to protecting innocent children from being victimized.

There are far too many children still being victimized, and child molesters are still being let out to add to their victim list. The system must be fixed and improved in this area. This is a much worse problem that protecting child molesters in prison. I think the only reasonable thought is to lock up first time child molesters for lengthy periods of time and repeat offenders forever. I have no problem with trying to make it safer for child molesters in prison, but let's make it safer for the innocent children first.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Hebrews 13:20-21 ASV  Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an eternal covenant, even our Lord Jesus, make you perfect in every good thing to do his will, working in us that which is well-pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.

I completely agree with you, Tom. Protecting children and stopping an abuser from abusing is the top priority. The man that molested my sister had been doing it to other children for three decades. He continued to do it until he was brought up on trial for molesting a mental disabled boy; he got off because the man had the boy call him "Daddy". So when the boy was asked who had touched him, guess what he said? A family was torn apart and a monster was set free. He's now  in Florida, and I have no illusions that he is still molesting and raping children.  I'm convinced the best way to stop child molesters is to find abused children and treat them. I don't think our prison systems are an effective way to treat them because they are totally devoid of God and for someone to overcome such a repulsive action they must have Christ in their lives. Prisons are completely without mercy, especially for such as these that even sincere Christians have a hard time forgiving.

Selah Joy,

I have joy. It's taken a good amount of struggling to achieve it, but I found it. It's a beautiful song.

[Shammu]

LOVE IS STRONGER
In the early hours, the telephone rang
shattering peaceful dreams
A precious life was taken in the night
police report said "Homicide"
Drunks at the wheel, theives who kill, a lover's fatal fight
leave the families of the victims, still reaching for the light

Why God, must there be such evil in this world?
Why God must there be such sorrow?

And the courtroom technicalities desecrate our memories
The family versus the accused
every lawyer has his job to do
While the anger rages how do we turn the other cheek?
How do we love despite the evil done?
How do we forgive the guilty one?

Why God, must there be such evil in this world?
Why God, must there be such sorrow?
Why God, must there be such evil in this world?
Why God, and how do we face tomorrow?

O MY grieving child, the choice is yours to make:
to forgive or lose everything to hate
Come and let me hold you through the anger and the pain

I'll show you love is stronger,
love will conquer,
love will never fail

Let ME give you grace to fight the evil in this world
strength to forgive and carry on
I'll hold you through the anger and the pain
and show you love is stronger,
love will conquer
love will never fail

Love is stronger
love will conquer
love will never fail
MY love is stronger...
MY love will conquer...MY love will never fail.

May we, all of us, learn to forgive.

selahjoy*

Selahjoy, that is a beautiful song. Everything in the song is true, and touched my heart. Thank you for posting, "LOVE IS STRONGER".

Resting in the Lords arms.
Bob

Daniel 10:18 Then there touched me again one whose appearance was like that of a man, and he strengthened me.