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"Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us"

 These few word from the Lord's Prayer are so very important to our well being and salvation.

 This prayer is directly from Jesus. This prayer is not simply a compilation of rythmatic words, which come together at the end to form a poem/prayer. The words are carefully chosen to give us all specific instruction as to how we should live as Christians.

 Jesus says that He will forgive to the same standard as we forgive those who trespass against us. In other words, if we refuse to forgive, He will refuse to forgive us.

 I have come across some people throughout my life who are bitter, and have no room for forgiveness. They only have sarcasm and anger in their hearts. All their troubles are someone else fault. These people are not Christians and do not have Jesus within them.

 I have also come across "Christians" who refuse to forgive. Oh, sure, they'll forgive for little things, but when they feel wronged on what they consider a serious trespass, forget it!
They fly into a "Holy indignation" and nothing will melt icy the anger! These people are generally good people, but anger and refusal to forgive has blinded them. They can't see that it's God who they are offending with their refusal to forgive, and it will come back to bite them in the end.

 When we forgive, God heals us of any pain or anger, which is related to the specific problem. We should also be quick to ask for forgiveness, even when we believe we are not in the wrong. This kind of heart is a heart after Jesus!

 I've known, for example,divorced people in my own family who are angry and bitter for years after the divorce! All the troubles and problems are "his" fault! WRONG! It's your fault! because you refused to forgive and forget. Once you do forgive God will release you of all the darkness, anger, and bitterness that has cause so much pain and tears for so many years.

 My brother's and sisters. If have offended some of you here over the time that I've been here, I am truly sorry and I ask for your forgiveness. If I have felt offended by some here, I am publicly telling you that I forgive all.

 The reason for this post is due to a recent incident, which ended with me announcing that I was going to take a break from C.U. My health is not good at the moment - heck, it's not good at the best of times! :D so I figured a break would do me some good. So because of some issues here and my health I was ready to make the break - that is until I got a letter of apology from a poster here. I won't name the person, but I will say this much.

 That apology touched me deeply.

 My health is still rotten, but I've always managed to deal with that before. It has been angering me this time because it just never really stops, and this time around, it has lasted for quite a while. Just when I think it's beginning to break, it comes back with a fury. I have to get checked out for kidney stones again. I'm in a lot of pain, and laying down is agonizing! I have these stinking painkillers though, so I'll have to put up with the occasional head bang on the desk, when I nod off! :-\

  You know, I have openly admitted right here on this forum that I have an anger and sarcasm problem, when confronted by aggressive or sarcastic posts. I struggle with it. So I was really concerned that this latest incident would develop into something ugly. My last post to ***** was a wee sampling of that, and I was really fighting to stay in control as I wrote that! :-[

 So, I thought, this is not the way Jesus wants me to be, especially on a Christian forum where I profess to be a faithful, Bible believing Christian who takes God literal. I didn’t want to be a hypocrite or a bad example. So I thought I should take a break, to try and work it out with God, and at the same time, give myself a chance to relax and hopefully feel better.

 After I read this apology letter, all that foolish anger simply melted away! :) Jesus is at work here!

 So I'm going to hold off on my vacation. I still might be away at times; it depends on how my health is on any given day. This experience has rejuvenated me. I love my friends that I have met over the years here, and I look forward to making new friends. Some people here don't think much of my moderating here, but this is part of the reason for this entire post.

 Over the years I have asked some people here for forgiveness when I have offended, most have responded positively - one person told me basically to forget it! Another person simply ignored me, which really saddened me because we used to have a great relationship here, and I miss that relationship.

 I implore my brothers and sisters here to search their hearts. Jesus is there; He wants us to forgive each other. He wants us to ask for forgiveness. If we are truly Christians, then we must deny satan's virus of pride and anger the best we can and forgive each other.

 Am I going to be a perfect Christian from now on? No. Will I continue to be sarcastic in some of my posts? I pray that God helps me so I won't. Will I try harder control my temper and sarcasm? YES INDEED!!  :D

 All it took to turn a bad situation around was one simple apology! It didn't cost a penny. It didn't raise a sweat. It did make a gigantic difference.

 Thank you so much for the apology my friend! God has blessed us both because of it!

Bronze,

All I can say is...............your post made me cry :'(.  You are a man after God's own heart.  I can't remember the bible verse now, but it's about "words" we speak, and how "one" word from another can soften or harden the heart.  I'm not good at being able to spit out chapters and verses.

I just pray the Holy Spirit will continue to guide and direct you.  Father God, through Your son Jesus Christ, I pray for healing for my brother, Bronze.  Oh Father, give him wisdom, courage, and strength.  Send those to him who could be of help.  I pray for his family too, Lord God.  Strengthen them, and just fill them all with Your love.  Amen.

I love you, Bronze!

Grace and peace,
cris

PS.........Agreed, we should ALL be praying "The Lord's Prayer" everyday.  Jesus said that this was how we were to pray when He was asked this question.

Bronzesnake,

AMEN BROTHER!!! - Your post blessed me, and I would like to echo the same sentiments.

I was just talking about this same matter with another Brother in Christ. Our typed posts on the forum are easy to misunderstand because there are no gestures, facial expressions, voice inflections, and other ways that usually help in communications. We all also make mistakes on a regular basis. SO, apologies and forgiveness should be a way of Christian life.

We have a Christian heart that desires peace and fellowship with other Christians, and we all must deal with mistakes and misunderstandings. Apologies and forgiveness is like taking a weight off the Christian heart, and it always results in enhanced peace and fellowship. Withholding forgiveness leaves the weight on the Christian heart and results in hardness that hurts.

I would also hope and pray for forgiveness for anything I might have done to hurt another brother or sister in Christ.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 11:33  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Amen Brothers,

This indeed warms my heart and brings me tears of joy.

As we are told "there is none righteous". We all have our weaknesses and are capable of making mistakes.

It is such a wonderful thing that we can come together in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to ask for forgiveness and to forgive one another in true brotherly love.




Rom 12:16  Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
Rom 12:17  Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
Rom 12:18  If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.




2Co 2:2  For if I make you sorry, who is he then that maketh me glad, but the same which is made sorry by me?
2Co 2:3  And I wrote this same unto you, lest, when I came, I should have sorrow from them of whom I ought to rejoice; having confidence in you all, that my joy is the joy of you all.
2Co 2:4  For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be grieved, but that ye might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you.
2Co 2:5  But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all.
2Co 2:6  Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.
2Co 2:7  So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.
2Co 2:8  Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.

 Thank you my friends.
This experience has really touched my heart. I know God planned the whole thing out ahead of time.

THIS REALLY SPEAKS TO ME ON EVERY LEVEL,I WANT TO
TAKE THIS MOMENT TO UNBURDEN MYSELF AND FORGIVE.
MAY IT BE MY FIRST STEP IN SEEKING THE LORD ,AMEN

Well it is easy to forgive some people, people we like or admire, or people who are truly repentant and apologize.  So I am going off from the original posting some what.  No offense is meant to anyone here because I am not talking about that type of forgiveness that is easy.  

We must consider how difficult it is to forgive those who commit terrible crimes against the innocent and even ourselves.  We might have forgiven them before and they were not apologetic or even repentant.  They may have repeatedly sinned against us and God harming us in many ways.  Do these people deserve our forgiveness?  How do we forgive those who hurt us many many times and are not sorry for it?  I am talking about liars, thieves, rapists, murderers.  

Amen! Seeking,

I'm with you on this one, young sibling in the Lord!  ;D

Forgiveness is an act of our will.  It need not be heartfelt to be begun.  The feelings will follow after the repetitious act (of forgiveness).  There are lots of verses to guide us, like the parable Jesus told of the forgiven slave who did not forgive his debtor, and the Lord's prayer itself speaks to forgiveness.  But my favorite scripture that has encouraged me, and entrenched me to strongly hold onto the precept of forgiveness is found in John 17.  Jesus prays for all of us; He thanks His Father for giving us to Him (can you imagine the love of Jesus as He was thankful for getting relationship with you and me?!), but then Jesus says that if we--his followers--would unite with one another the way He and the Father are one, then---and this is the clencher---then, and then, then, the world will know that the Father sent Jesus, that Jesus is God!  To me, this is the most powerful testimony in the whole world!  Super miracles of physical healing, spiritual manifestation, divine timing and accomplishment:  all these can be debated as to their origin--from whence do they come?  But to forgive like Jesus did, like He forgave Peter, Judas, Mary, Martha, his mom, all the disciples, even Ceasar and the theif on the cross.  Then there is Stephen who forgave the guys who were killing him with stones!  the list goes on...

These examples and teachings have greatly encouraged me to insist to my selfish soul that I pray for my enemies, and bless those who harm me, or ignore me, or reject me.  Oh, I've cried out to God for deliverance, protection, and vindication, just like David did in Ps 43, but still, God has called Christians to an incredible testimony of forgiveness.

Seeking, may we remain in the Word!  May we fall deeper in love with Jesus and wholeheartedly read the Bible as one would read a love-letter from their loving-one.  May you hear the word, read it, and meditate upon it every day, for the rhema, the dunamis, and the power of the written words that came from our Lord.  Those words will transform us into the likeness of Jesus Christ Himself.

None of us will be perfect as we live on this earth, but the more I keep Jesus' John 17:21 and vs 23 in the forefront of my mind, the more my heart goes out toward Jesus' agenda.  And I want to join Him and help Him reach His goals because He is my hero.  He essentially jumped in harm's way and took my spiritual demise for me, so that I won't have to spiritually die.

Instead, we get to live with Him forever because of His great forgiveness.  Oh I just want to praise God now!

Seeking, I hope and pray for your joy to be full in Jesus!

selahjoy*

Yes, this kind of forgiveness can be the hardest thing to do. We are to love our enemies as Jesus has loved us. It is through love that we fully understand what forgiveness is and how to forgive. Even though we may have sinned against God time and time again He is still willing to forgive us. This is true love.

This does not mean that we must continually subject ourselves to persecution by these sorts. In 2Tim 3 we are told to withdraw ourselves from such people. It does not say that hating them is ok just to withdraw from them.

Yes it is difficult to do this. If we give it to the Lord in all supplication and prayer it does become easier.

Brother Bronze,

I had no idea you were not feeling well!  But you are a saint to forgive and seek forgiveness!  Oh brother, I pray for your life, for every part of your life and your family to be built up and strengthened in the will of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ!  Be healed in Jesus' name!!!

cris, I couldn't remember where the verse you mentioned came from so I looked it up.  Prov 15:1  "A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."  Thank you for the reminder.  That is a good word!  And thank you for your prayer for Bronze.  I agree with you in that!  :D

Oh God, we cry out to you our Abba Daddy Father!  You said we could come to you just as we are, simple, yet anointed children of the Father of Lights!  So Lord, we come to you believing Your authority in Jesus' name.  I ask you to have Your will in Bronze's family, in his health, in his life.  I also pray for the newbies in Christ like Seeking, and my sister RachelRH.  I pray for cris, PR, BEP, and all the people who visit and post on CU.  Father, in the name of Jesus, please unite us in You, Jesus.  Please take our earthly values and transform them, and us, to Your thoughts from above, to live, act, and think Your values!  What is in Your heart, Oh my God! that You would give up something of Your diety to die for me--to raise up and live forever--with an invitation for all of us to join you in eternity!  Oh Father, I pray that we at CU really do unite in the unity of Jesus, that we really do love our brothers and sisters who would differ in opinions.  Oh God, from those closest to us, who are under our very roofs, all the way around to the far reaches of the world, please pour out Your Holy Spirit upon us, Lord.  That Your will would be accomplished upon this earth, in the hearts and minds of those You call!  Thank You for Your word, for Your word is true!  Amen!

We love You, Jesus!

I agree with PR.  Some bad things have happened in my life so I speak from experience.  I believe it is Godly wisdom to stay away from those people.  Remember David who ran from his enemies, and even Jesus slipped out of the synagogues when the bad guys were after Him.  

Love in Jesus name,
*
Pray, pray, praise. ( I know it's hard, but it's Jesus' way...)

I completely agree with you, Bronzesnake. I think it is a humbling thought that it took so much to forgive my sins, and yet I find it hard to forgive the transgressions (compared with what Christ has forgiven me, the extremely minor transgressions).  



I think the point of forgiving someone is not for them, but for you. When you do not forgive someone for something as horrible as abuse, rape, theft, or murder, you are constantly allowing yourself to be revictimized by that person. Pain usually comes with anger and bitterness. The beauty of forgiveness is not saying that you forget what the person did to you but you remember and chose to forgive them inspite of it. On the other hand, if you know someone is prone to stealing, I would put away the fine china until they rebuild your trust.  

I think the point of forgiving someone is not for them, but for you. When you do not forgive someone for something as horrible as abuse, rape, theft, or murder, you are constantly allowing yourself to be revictimized by that person. Pain usually comes with anger and bitterness. The beauty of forgiveness is not saying that you forget what the person did to you but you remember and chose to forgive them inspite of it. On the other hand, if you know someone is prone to stealing, I would put away the fine china until they rebuild your trust.  

Tabitha,

You could not have said this better!  Your point to "put away the fine china until they rebuild your trust" is so well said.  Your reasons for forgiving are well thought out too, but I would like to add another benefit to forgiving.  Parents who forgive rapists, murderers, slanderers, thiefs, or child abusers free their children from the curses of the past.  In other words, children don't have to grow up and live as adults just passing on the yucky stories or unforgiveness, or all the bitterness that develops with unforgiveness.  

By a parent's forgiveness, the family is free to heal and get on with freedom and joy in God's purpose.  So, we will give no more time for the evil in our lives to rule.  It is God who gets our thoughts.

Finally, I think it is Godly wisdom to "put away the fine china..."   Can you think of any verses where this principle is illustrated?  I don't know where the verses are, but when Jesus slipped out of the synagogue, He put distance between Him and the would-be murderers.  David certainly left his attackers, so did Tamar...any others?

God bless you!  It's always good to be here on CU and read your thoughts!   :)  Selahjoy*

SelahJoy;
Thanks for "bumping" this thread.  I Needed to read it again.

Forgiveness is SO IMPORTANT to each and every one of us. We are commanded by our Lord to forgive. It is something we should meditate on and pray about each and everyday, without fail.
Mark 11:25
“And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses.

Hey
Forgiveness is very important but it's also one of the hardest things that one can do. How can you forgive the rapist? How can you forgive the terrorist?

It's up to us to set the example. We know that one day God will judge the terrorist, so why should we not forgive? This is how I try to look on it and this is how I forgive.

 Let me say this my friends - my brothers and sisters.
I have read through all these replies, and I was brought to tears. Forgiveness is very powerful.

Thank you for your prayers SelahJoy!



Amen my sister! You summed it up very nicely!

 Bronzesnake

Agree with everything you said but here's another slant.  We're human and find it's really hard to forgive someone wounding us directly.  Our pride is pricked.  That fallen nature still hangs around.  It's only Jesus Christ IN us that enables us to forgive.  That old nature is a vindictive and revengeful one.  We have to constantly crucify the flesh or we can't forgive.  Cannot imagine what this world would be like if Jesus Christ wasn't here with us.  Don't even want to imagine.

Grace and peace,
cris

 

I posted this about a year ago. I think it is time to make, it's way back to the front.

Learning to Forgive

The journey toward our healing starts with unconditional love and forgiveness - unconditional love and forgiveness we offer first to ourselves. These two are so closely interwoven that it is impossible to conceive of unconditional love without forgiveness and vice versa. As God loves utterly and forgives utterly, so we are to offer love and forgiveness. Jesus in his reply to the Pharisees stated: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it; Love your neighbour as yourself." Matthew 22:37-39 In the prayer he gave to his friends, and in his subsequent explanation Jesus is quoted as saying: "Forgive us our debts as we forgive others ... if you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Parent will forgive you ... but if you do not forgive others, neither will your Parent forgive your transgressions."

There is no doubt God desires that we are all healed and whole, yet self-forgiveness and self-love are either neglected or put in the "too hard" basket. Worse still, many of us have never heard this portion of the Gospel. Yet from our earliest days we have been subjected to moral and spiritual directions which have taught us what was "good" and what was "bad"; what was "expected of us" and what was "unacceptable or inexcusable conduct". In fact, we are bent over by layer upon subsequent layer of shame and guilt, imposed on us by family, society, various spiritual decrees and regulations, by those who employ us and those with whom we work. Our greatest need is to see ourselves with the eyes of God, as people who are loved and are forgiven totally. We may need to turn to those skilled in the ministry of healing of memories to help unlock all those doors behind which we have repressed pain, anxiety, bitterness and failures together with the memories of those kindnesses we neglected, and all those acts of conciliation we refused. As Jungian John Sanford notes, "We are all of us wounded people. The is no such thing as a person who is free from illness, incompleteness, and injury to his or her personality. Some of us can simply hide from our woundedness better than others. When we can no longer hide from our woundedness, we are ready for individuation." As those who have not yet forgiven nor loved themselves we remain unhealed people. What is our reaction when we are required by Jesus to love and forgive others as we love and forgive ourselves, if we have not yet made peace with ourselves? How can we express unconditional forgiveness and love to others when we have not yet experienced it in our own lives?

Fear, the opposite of love  is manifested in many forms: hatred, jealousy, pride, resentment, anger, greed, prejudice, hostility, conceit and various, "ism" words. Each and every one of these manifestations of fear corrodes our personality, our spiritual walk, our attitudes and our physical bodies. Changes in blood pressure, indigestion, ulcerated stomachs, nervous breakdowns and coronary attacks can often be traced back to lack of unconditional love. Unconditional love frees us from all bonds and restrictions - we rejoice at the successes of others, and mourn over the plight of many. We are so filled with love that life bubbles over. Those who are yet to know this experience of unconditional love often close in on themselves, creating a universe of which they are the center. They are fearful and jealous of their reputation, they begrudge the successes of others, they become neurotic and sometimes paranoid that there is a conspiracy somewhere directed against them. Their fear, hatred and jealousy eat away at their peace of mind, at their relationship with the Creator, and at their physical bodies. They become consumed by fear, riddled by the worms of nightmares of their own making. Their lives are punctuated by explosions of anger, and as such are immature reminders of childhood. Whether these outbursts are used as a release of tension or frustration, or whether they are used as a weapon, they are still only tools of manipulation. James 4: 1-2 speaks of these outbursts.

God continues to love all of creation, passionately, unconditionally. For God so loved the world that ..........


"If love is the soul of Christian existence, it must be at the heart of every other Christian virtue. Thus, for example, justice without love is legalism; faith without love is ideology; hope without love is self-centeredness; forgiveness without love is self-abasement; fortitude without love is recklessness; generosity without love is extravagance; care without love is mere duty; fidelity without love is servitude. Every virtue is an expression of love. No virtue is really a virtue unless it is permeated, or informed, by love 1Corinthians 13."

Why shouldn't those who have wronged us be punished, made to bear the cost of their actions/words? We all have a deep-seated conviction that "someone ought to pay." Jesus spoke of this "eye for an eye" attitude - the letter of the law - as being superceded by the requirements of Love. How can things ever be made right? How can those words/actions be wiped from the memories and lives of the victims and of others? Revenge merely sets one on the same level as the one who has wronged you, forgiveness moves you both closer to God. From forgiveness it is a tiny step to accept others as beloved children of God, and to love them as such.

Jesus demonstrated that God condemns no person; therefore why do we? Why do we refuse forgiveness when for our own healing, wholeness and peace of mind we need to be forgiven and to offer forgiveness? "Forgiveness means that we have asked for a miracle: the ability to see through the mistakes that someone has made to the truth that lies in all our hearts"  Marianne Williamson, Illuminata. Forgiveness is seeing others as loved as equally as we are by God, and as justified, forgiven and reconciled by the blood of Jesus as we are.

Forgiveness removes our rights to avenge and to revenge. It prevents us from attacking others. Forgiveness costs - often it seems to produce more pain than the original wounding. It involves accepting voluntarily the harm or evil that has been inflicted on oneself, and letting the other person go free. In love, we bear the cost of those sins against us. Both human and divine forgiveness are substitutional. The cross was the price God paid to forgive us. We could never pay the debt of sin we owe to God, so God paid it for us. By our forgiveness of others we pay their debt to us.

Cont., next post

Forgiveness does not mean we suppress our anger - forgiveness means we give up our right to anger. Alone we cannot do this, it is far too hard. Every person is one for whom Christ died, and one whom God regards as a perfect, loving child. We need to recognize that each and every one of us is an immortal soul. Our actions and reactions will become part of the immortal record of our lives. We need to turn to God and ask for strength to tread this path, so that we may offer forgiveness, acceptance and love to others. Only God knows and understands others, so rather than trying to analyze their motives, we need only to be accepting and forgiving. In Col 3: 12-14 Paul speaks of this. God has never refused forgiveness to any person, nor turned away from any.

There can be no peace without forgiveness. Forgiveness does not erase the past, nor can forgiveness change it. Instead forgiveness removes the power of the past to cause pain or anger; it provides permanent healing of those memories. Forgiveness empties the bitterness from our lives. Bitterness left to fester will erode our attitudes, our rationale and motives and our relationship with God. To be able to accept God's forgiveness we must be free in ourselves to offer forgiveness to others. We must be prepared to offer this forgiveness not only once, but should a memory of the offence be renewed we must offer forgiveness once again - continually. To offer forgiveness continually is to live forgiveness by accepting the rough and tumble of life, by turning disappointments into opportunities. While we still may not like the person(s), or may find a clash of lifestyle or philosophy to be a bit too much to say 'friend', we at least reach out to find the common ground and see if friendship, or at least the ability to work and live together, develops.

C.S. Lewis in The Weight of Glory speaks of the unconditional love we are asked to demonstrate:

"And our charity must be a real and costly love, with deep feeling for the sins in spite of which we love the sinner--no mere tolerance, or indulgence which parodies love as flippancy parodies merriment. Next to the Blessed Sacrament itself, your neighbour is the holiest object presented to your senses. If he is your Christian neighbour, he is holy in almost the same way, for in him also Christ vere latitat -- the glorifier and the glorified, Glory Himself, is truly hidden."

It is by forgiveness that we dissolve the bonds that tie us to those we forgive, as well as to our old thought patterns and beliefs. Without the willingness to forgive we perpetuate the pain, the abuse and the memories of those past traumas continuing in our present time. We have no need to confront that person(s) to offer forgiveness. We can ask God to wrap them in our forgiveness and love, or we can choose to visualize sending a cloud or blanket of love and forgiveness to them and having it enfold them. Those who use a pipe in prayer will also know how to send such blessings. There is no barrier to prevent us extending our forgiveness, save our own willfulness. Perhaps we don't choose to forgive today, or let go of those painful memories just yet. We want to hug them a little longer to our breasts, to feel the thorns again pierce our flesh. Why? Why in the name of the Risen Christ do we Christians choose this option? Christ has borne the cost of forgiveness, why must we punish ourselves by refusing forgiveness? Why do we choose to continue to live as the victims of rape, of verbal or emotional abuse, and of rejection when in an instant we can set ourselves and the perpetrators free? Do we not believe we deserve the peace and joy such forgiveness will secure? What is the fear which will not permit us to live as healed, whole, radiant people?

As a society, as a nation, as part of all creation we need communally to seek forgiveness from God. While a society cannot be ordered to don sackcloth en masse, we can gather publicly and commit to the change, and the Christians of our nations can (as individuals and as the Church) confess our sins before God and another (or many others) and seek God's forgiveness. Our society and our nations have practiced racism; we have been willing to destroy the mountains of food we have overproduced while millions in the world starve; we have not spoken out when we have seen the rights, the homes and the lives of others destroyed; we have created barriers of class, gender and sexuality. As members of our societies and our nations we must be prepared to seek forgiveness from those whom we wronged, and try to make restitution. Sometimes restitution is not possible, but our act of confession and sorrow allows the growth of roots of healing. And with this healing comes reconciliation.

Reconciliation is not easily achieved on either side, for each of us has been damaged by our own acts and by the acts of others. We have built defensive walls to protect us from further damage. God will need our permission to start demolishing these walls. But by the gift of unconditional love and forgiveness Jesus has moved to restore our relationship with God and our relationship with each other.

For this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.

Sometimes I believe we forget the price God paid so that we could be forgiven, so that no trace of those sins would ever remain to convict us in God's sight. Jesus was physically put to death, his body broken, spilled out for us. When we read the Ten Commandments and Jesus' commission for each of us, we cannot but note that God's directs our concern outward to others. It is our neighbours, our families, our enemies, and the untapped fields waiting to be reaped for Christ which are the focus of God's attention. When we share the Eucharist it is not a solitary meal, for even if we are celebrating it by ourselves, we do so within the entire universal family of believers, past, present and future. God's love and forgiveness pour out, as Christ's blood was poured out, for all. And that includes all from whom we have withheld our forgiveness. We can never be sure of the hidden compulsions which cause people to strike out, so how can we judge their words and actions justly? God does know, and God forgives.

Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven.

We are called to be a peculiar people, to view life differently and to live it differently. In some ways our walk may seem topsy-turvy to others; our values have changed from self to service. In Matthew 5: 21-24 are recorded Jesus' words which challenged his hearers' previous thoughts about their relationship to each other and to God. Jesus not only overturned the tables at the Temple, but he overturned our responses to one another even to this day. When, after the war, Corrie ten Boom met a former guard who had been responsible for the torment of women in the concentration camp at Ravensbruck, try as she could, her hand would not extend to touch his ... until she put the matter in God's hands, and forgave. She could then clasp his hand and bless him. Topsy-turvy it could seem.

The words whose echoes still resound in the ether, continuing to challenge us to repudiate the reasons we use to justify withholding unconditional love and forgiveness, are those which Jesus spoke at Calvary:

Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.

BRNZ, I still love you brother, no matter what has happened in the past. Each day, is a new begining for us who walk with Christ. So long as we don't keep repeating, past sins.

Resting in our Lords arms.
Bob

Rom 12:16  Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

2 Corinthians 2:10 If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him. And what I have forgiven—if there was anything to forgive—I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake,

Amen DW, thank you for reposting that I didn't get to see it before.



Some very good questions deserving some very good answers. In addition to the above answers I would like to say that we should follow Christs example. Whenever I am wronged by someone I think about what Jesus said on the cross, "forgive them; for they know not what they do". This is so true because these people do not know what they are doing to themselves because of their actions and in many cases I do not think that they know what they are actually doing to others in the long run.

Brother Bronze!  With sincere respect, I say you are so welcome!  I have visited the CU site with hope, expectation, and sometimes, concern to "see" you again.  Sincerely, I am happy to hear from you.  So this means you must be feeling better, right?

your sister in Jesus,

 Yes, I am begining to get better. I am regaining my strength.
Thank you so much for your concern my sister.

Find all 100 or 200 verses in the Bible that tell about God's attributes.  Then go to a safe place either by yourself or with trusted brothers and sisters.  Once there, discipline yourself to tell God which of His attributes you like the best.  Be sure to tell Him how much you appreciate Him.  Sing love songs to Him too.  In Christian terms, this is called "praise and worship."

If your anger, pain, disgust, or any other negative emotion gets real strong, go ahead and tell God about it.  Yell it to Him if you want to.  You might even read some scripture to Him, for example, David's writings in Psalms about His would-be-murderers.  But don't stop at this!  You must force yourself to...

At some moment, pause from telling God how bad it is, and then force yourself to sing and pray love songs to Him.  This will probably be real difficult so expect resistance within your heart and thoughts.  Do it anyway.  The Bible refers to this as "the sacrifice of praise."  Keep doing this until God gives you the "peace that passes understanding."  He will do it!  And you will find a measure of forgiveness for the rapist.

Also, pray the rapist gets everything from God that you want from God.  For example, if you want salvation, ask God to save the rapist.  If you want peace between yourself and God, ask God to make peace with the rapist.  If you want to be protected from evil, pray God protects the rapist.  Pray God gives the rapist the chance to meet you in heaven and make total reconciliation with you.

Then, God will give you a deep compassion for others who are raped, and you will be Jesus' witness of Christian love.

One final step to total forgiveness, remember our sisters advice to "keep the fine china safe until you trust" the rapist.  Remember, forgiving the rapist and trusting the rapist are totally different.  Joseph ran from Potifer's wife.  Tamar never went to re-visit Amnon.  Jesus knew when to leave the presense of His enemy's too.

Love to all

Amen SelahJoy,

Your post reminded me of these verses.



1Ch 23:30  And to stand every morning to thank and praise the LORD, and likewise at even;

Psa 35:28  And my tongue shall speak of thy righteousness and of thy praise all the day long.

Psa 71:8  Let my mouth be filled with thy praise and with thy honour all the day.

Brothers, and sisters,

If I can forgive my wifes murderer, and bring him to Jesus. How can any of you do less. Ours is not vengence, or revenge. Forgiveness removes our rights to avenge, what ever wrong we have suffered. Or in plain language, it prevents us from attacking others. Yes at times I suffer, bbut that is nothing perment, in time Jesus will heal that. Remember, that we should learn forgiveness as taught by the Lord.

Rest with the Lord.
Bob

Hosea 14:2 Take words with you and return to the LORD. Say to him: "Forgive all our sins and receive us graciously, that we may offer the fruit of our lips.

AMEN BROTHERS AND SISTERS!

I love this thread. It's very uplifting and of huge value to every Christian.

Dreamweaver, God bless you Brother! I couldn't imagine what you've gone through. I'll simply say your example would be the ultimate in this discussion, and I give thanks that God is using you for the benefit of others in many ways.

The Blood of JESUS is forgiveness for us when we make HIM the LORD over our lives. Brother Bob, I'm reflecting now on you witnessing to the murderer of your wife and him accepting JESUS. Brother, it's TOO MUCH to put into words. I know that many prayed for you, and I'm wondering if you were led to do this as God's method of restoring peace in your heart. BUT, it's still far TOO MUCH to put into words.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 15:9-11 ASV  Even as the Father hath loved me, I also have loved you: abide ye in my love.  If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.  These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

Thank you for your kind words. This entire thread is very provactive, in the very best use of the term.

I think the redemption of man is the largest example of having to rebuild the trust in a relationship in the Bible. The parable of the prodigal son is, I believe, a summary for long story of God and humanity. God's forgiveness has already been granted to us by the actions of Christ, but we have to acknowledge why He died before our sins are absolved. I have noticed when people say that they're sorry, especially in intimate relationships, what they mean is that they're sorry that they got caught or that their actions have hampered their pleasure or peace in some way.

I think forgiveness is very addictive; The greater you forgive, the more you want to forgive. Once you forgive the major things like a rape or a murder, the more you realize how freeing it is.

When I was two, I watched my sister be molested. The way the man was able to do it and keep her silence was by threatening my life and the rest of my family. Growing up, my sister was unable to lash out at the man who hurt her, so she would kick the crap out of me. The man managed to molest a disgusting amount of children because the man was a missionary, was very intelligent, and knew all the right things to say to sincere Christians. When he admitted what he did, they immediately forgave and forgot. He destroyed the childhoods of many people, but the thing that I have noticed as we have grown up is that the people who have forgiven him and what he has done are the most successful. After a very long time, I was able to forgive him and my sister for her actions; I'm at peace. My sister has never forgiven him, and it was destroyed her life.

Forgiveness isn't even about justice. The man has never been convicted in a court of law because most of his crimes happened in another country. It's about freeing yourself from the obligation to be intertwined with your abuser.

 Tabitha, my sister, I am heart sick for the pain and evil you witnessed as a child. The sad thing  (besides the obvious) is that I hear the same type of stories from so many women. My wife and I are foster parents, and we have a young girl who was also molested, but by her own father. Her sister was molested also. The father killed himself after it all came out. He didn't have the courage to face the consequences.

 The girls still love him, and have forgiven him as best they can. Forgiveness is so powerful, and those who forgive are freed from the bonds of evil that are done against them, as you have pointed out Tabitha. I also feel that the perpetrators must face up to their acts. It's not OK to simply be forgiven. When men do such things they must face up to it.

 I've heard stories of men who have admitted such acts in church to their pastors. They were truly repentant for deeds done when they were "younger" I say, it's good to get it out in the open, but it cannot stop there. True repentance dictates that these men must pay their debt to society when a crime such as that has been committed. Or is it enough for the victim to forgive?

 Any thoughts?

Brother John,

As you knowq in my case, it was enough for me to forgive. As long as Henry has repentanced, against his sin. What he has done, and is doing I fully believe he is repentanced of his sin. I have forgiven Henry, he may need never to worry about me. He also know that, he may e-mail me for information on the Bible. I will bring, or send him the information he needs.

Resting with the Lord.
Bob

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you in (with) water because of repentance [that is, because of your changing your minds for the better, heartily amending your ways, with abhorrence of your past sins]. But He Who is coming after me is mightier than I, Whose sandals I am not worthy or fit to take off or carry; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

 Brother Bob, you are truely a man after God's heart, as is Tabitha. Such forgiveness in the face of such horror is a powerful testimony to your faith and trust in Jesus.

 However, shouldn't we also be accountable to the laws of the land? Don't murderers and child molesters have to be accountable in front of the courts? Even if they are truely repentant, and never commit such horrible crimes ever again, even if the victims have forgiven them, they are still accountable to our laws.

 I understand what you are saying Bob and Tabitha. It is enough for you personally - that forgiveness and repentance are at the forefront, and no amount of jail time would turn back the hands of time, or ease your burden. However, I still believe that if the perpetrators of these tragic crimes were truely repentant, they would willingly turn themselves over to the courts, and accept the punishment which the courts bestowed upon them.

 God bless you both, you are an inspiration for us all.

John

It is clear to me that when the law on the books says the speed limit is 65 mph, then it is my duty to God to obey that law, and that if I drive 75 mph I am in violation of not only the civil law, but the law of God.  

When someone has committed a public sin and brought reproach on the church and on the good name Christian, it is customary and it is proper that, when this person repents and turns to God, that this person make their change of life known to other Christians.   The purpose for this public acknowlegement of correction of sin is threefold:  
1. to make fellow Christians aware of the change in the life of their brother/sister,  
2. fellow Christians will rejoice with the one who has repented and turned to God, and
3. fellow Christians will support and encourage the repentant Christian in his/her change of life.

Matt 6:14-15 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

You realize that there are two kinds laws, both God's and civil, which we can commit.  Laws where there is no lasting consequence, such as ocassionally going over the speed limit, or ocassionally saying a dirty word.  If we make these our habit and our lifestyle, we will have real problems and will have to deal with it.  But if it is almost accidental, and a slip, then we can correct that between us and God; we don't usually have to bother other people with it.

I have seen situations where fellow Christians have said to the repentant person that they could not forgive them, because their repentance was not enough.  This is related to what John the Baptist said to the Jews, "bring forth fruits worthy of repentance."  But we must never forget that it is God who forgives the sinner, and who tells us that we must forgive, we have no choice:

Rom 13:1-6 1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.  Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.  For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.  Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.   (KJV)

Governments are ordained by God, to perform definite functions in God's overall scheme of things, such as law enforcement and national defense.

Resting with the Lord.
Bob

Ezra 10:14 Let our officials stand for the whole assembly; let all in our cities who have foreign wives come by appointment, and with each group the elders of that city and its judges, until the fierce wrath of our God over this matter is turned away from us.

On one hand I agree. In an ideal situation, people who break the law should be bound by the laws of the land, as you put it. Being truly repentant means that you are willing to make amends to give your victims peace. If that's admitting before a court of law that you committed a crime, then so be it. There's also the fear of relapsing into that way of life again, and don't the people who are raising their children around you have a right to know what you have done? Thinking about  Dylan and Shasta... Can you be absolutely sure that the person isn't manipulating you in order to weasle out of their responsibility? Ultimately, we have to forgive those who sin against us, but I don't think its wrong to ask for justice our loved ones and ourselves.

On the other hand, I have to respectfully disagree with Dreamweaver. Call me paranoid, but I don't trust the laws of this land. The laws and rulings are not just and the state's protection of prisoners is a joke. Especially in the case of a convicted child molestor, I have serious concerns over the safety for that person; rape and abuse is never justice, even with sexual predators. If the person was genuine in their apology and was starting on the right track, could a newfound faith stand that kind of trauma? Where is the line between justice and revenge? I don't know.  

Sister Tabitha,

I certainly think that prison systems have a responsibility to protect even child molesters, and they have systems in place to do that. Most systems call it protective custody, and it usually consists of separate lock-down areas.

I would first have to say that my first concern about child molesters is to stop them from victimizing any more children. This would be the top priority. Long term statistics indicate that once a child molester, always a child molester. Their crimes are especially gruesome because they ruin an entire life for many of their victims. So, I would obviously say that protection of the child molester is secondary to protecting innocent children from being victimized.

There are far too many children still being victimized, and child molesters are still being let out to add to their victim list. The system must be fixed and improved in this area. This is a much worse problem that protecting child molesters in prison. I think the only reasonable thought is to lock up first time child molesters for lengthy periods of time and repeat offenders forever. I have no problem with trying to make it safer for child molesters in prison, but let's make it safer for the innocent children first.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Hebrews 13:20-21 ASV  Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an eternal covenant, even our Lord Jesus, make you perfect in every good thing to do his will, working in us that which is well-pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.

wow, this is a very personal, very powerful thread :'(

Tabitha,

my heart is touched by your story.  I too was abused.  The prior post which I wrote contains the things that I have done to seek to forgive.  As I was reading the posts, I was reminded of things forgiven and I think you are right, forgiving the harder ones, like rape and murder, help forgive the simpler.

I'd like to encourage you to consider what you might need to further heal.  Since I don't know you, my thoughts may not be relevant.  But when I was overwhelmed by the emotional pain and oppression caused from my past, I sought out Christian women who would pray for me.  I remember one time calling someone on the phone while in tears and just asking them to read the Bible to me.  I knew I was a baby asking for the milk of the word, but sometimes getting ministered to like that helped me.  (I still love it   :)  After taking the painful memories to God over and over and over and over, I finally can honestly say that there is freedom in Jesus Christ.

Actually, I am amazed!   :o   because I see God's priniciples working in my life in many areas and on many levels.  So I just cannot say enough good stuff about praying, praising God, and crying out to Him.  He has become so close to me.  It's amazing.  I feel like a changed woman.  I hope it is okay to testify like this.  I really am boasting in the Lord.  I always wanted closeness with God and I have found it in prayer, praise and worship--even in crying out in anguish--He is there.  Praise God!  :)

I hope that you can smile even though the thoughts of what happened may be painful.  You are never alone when abiding in the lifechanging word of God.  He lives in your praises.

Dreamweaver, there is a song sung by Michael John Poirier called "Love is Stronger."  Before I became a Christian, about ten years ago because I've been a Christian for six years, I heard him sing this song.  I loved it so much and it has always reminded me of my family in Texas.

They found that my nephew was murdered by drug dealers.  Since I don't live near Texas, I couldn't go with them, but they went to court and went through all that.

I know it was the love of Jesus that has kept my parents in Christ's mind and heart toward the murderers.  I wish I could send you the beautiful melody, but I can key in the lyrics.  Be blessed, Big Bro.

LOVE IS STRONGER
In the early hours, the telephone rang
shattering peaceful dreams
A precious life was taken in the night
police report said "Homicide"
Drunks at the wheel, theives who kill, a lover's fatal fight
leave the families of the victims, still reaching for the light

Why God, must there be such evil in this world?
Why God must there be such sorrow?

And the courtroom technicalities desecrate our memories
The family versus the accused
every lawyer has his job to do
While the anger rages how do we turn the other cheek?
How do we love despite the evil done?
How do we forgive the guilty one?

Why God, must there be such evil in this world?
Why God, must there be such sorrow?
Why God, must there be such evil in this world?
Why God, and how do we face tomorrow?

O MY grieving child, the choice is yours to make:
to forgive or lose everything to hate
Come and let me hold you through the anger and the pain

I'll show you love is stronger,
love will conquer,
love will never fail

Let ME give you grace to fight the evil in this world
strength to forgive and carry on
I'll hold you through the anger and the pain
and show you love is stronger,
love will conquer
love will never fail

Love is stronger
love will conquer
love will never fail
MY love is stronger...
MY love will conquer...MY love will never fail.

Dreamweaver, I feel I must tell you the songwriter lost his grandmother to murder.  I am confident that he wrote and sang the song from his experience and heartfelt forgiveness.

May we, all of us, learn to forgive.

selahjoy*

SelahJoy,

AMEN AND AMEN SISTER!! Your post was beautiful and touched my heart. Thank you!

Love in Christ,
Tom

Colossians 1:12-14 ASV  giving thanks unto the Father, who made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light;  who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love;  in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins:

I completely agree with you, Tom. Protecting children and stopping an abuser from abusing is the top priority. The man that molested my sister had been doing it to other children for three decades. He continued to do it until he was brought up on trial for molesting a mental disabled boy; he got off because the man had the boy call him "Daddy". So when the boy was asked who had touched him, guess what he said? A family was torn apart and a monster was set free. He's now  in Florida, and I have no illusions that he is still molesting and raping children.  I'm convinced the best way to stop child molesters is to find abused children and treat them. I don't think our prison systems are an effective way to treat them because they are totally devoid of God and for someone to overcome such a repulsive action they must have Christ in their lives. Prisons are completely without mercy, especially for such as these that even sincere Christians have a hard time forgiving.

Selah Joy,

I have joy. It's taken a good amount of struggling to achieve it, but I found it. It's a beautiful song.

Selahjoy, that is a beautiful song. Everything in the song is true, and touched my heart. Thank you for posting, "LOVE IS STRONGER".

Resting in the Lords arms.
Bob

Daniel 10:18 Then there touched me again one whose appearance was like that of a man, and he strengthened me.