The Book of Revelations.....The Antichrist!

[Shammu]

How can two walk together except they agree?

Then, you can lock me out of the forum, won't be the first time.

a mathetes of Christ.

You know one sheep, thats not a very good Christian behavior.  

With your statement of being locked out of a forum. That makes me wonder, if you have been banned from Christians Unite  before.

Resting in the arms, of Jesus.
Bob

2 Samuel 22:18 He delivered me from my strong enemy, and from them that hated me: for they were too strong for me.

[Bronzesnake]

onesheep.

Your posts all have an angry edge to them.

When I said "good luck" it wasn't meant as a sarcastic inuendo. It would appear that you take things in the same veign as you give them - angy and self rightious.

I said "good luck" in reference to the question I asked...

Which of these two are true...

1) God does pour His wrath upon His faithful servants

2)God does not pour His wrath upon His faithful servants

Either He does, or He doesn't. It can't be both ways. If you believe He does, then I challenge you to give even a single sripture to back that up.
Remember, it wasn't God who cursed Job, it was satan.

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.  

Good luck    

I believe you didn't answer the question because you couldn't, and instead you got beligerant about it.

Take care my friend.
 

[nChrist]

Amen Pastor Roger!

one sheep obviously took the Scripture out of context and used it for his own purposes. What those purposes are, I don't know, but they don't appear to be peaceful.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 NASB  Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

[one sheep]

Bronzesnake-

Are you serious? We are not supposed to get angry, or be blunt? Sorry, that's not true. Look up the original meanings of words, and you will see that Paul said I do not come with enticing words, I Cor 2:4 enticing/ peitho
persuade

a) to persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe

b) to make friends of, to win one's favour, gain one's good will, or to seek to win one, strive to please one

c) to tranquillise

d) to persuade unto i.e. move or induce one to persuasion to do something

2) be persuaded

a) to be persuaded, to suffer one's self to be persuaded; to be induced to believe: to have faith: in a thing

1) to believe

2) to be persuaded of a thing concerning a person

b) to listen to, obey, yield to, comply with

3) to trust, have confidence, be confident


Jesus came baring a sword, not peace. Not for an unbeliever anyway. If we are told that we must agree to disagree, then that is a false doctrine, and we are told to be angry at it. I'm not here to make people mad, I didn't write these words. People get mad when their theology gets challenged. You , and this other person are saying that I'm an angry person for no reason, or a trouble maker, when I'm really not, I'm just direct. And no, I've never been kicked out of this particular forum before.

You bronzesnake, asked if I believe that the whole bible is literal. No, I don't, it has a lot of figurative language, even though you believe that that is just what people say to explain away the scriptures.

No. Jesus used this idiomatic language all the time. He called people scorpions, which is still to this day a term used in the middle east for a devious, and evil person. Mountains, were the ruling cities of an empire, born again, was also an expression of the Jews in their verbal commentaries. You see see this for yourself in Alfred Edersheim's books, McClintock and Strong's Cyclodedia of Biblical Literature, and several other references.
Everything mentioned in the book of Revelation can be found in the Old Testament. All you have to do is study it out to completion. I haven't, because it will take a lifetime.

But, you and I, and everyone else that bothers to write anything on these boards are just students. And we haven't said anything that past generations of opposing views haven't discussed. This is a tired arguement.

You said that we should be able to learn from eachother.
Well, apparently, that seems to be one-sided. Meaning, I can learn from you.
All I did was define words, and you and a few others got mad. That is the first problem. People don't want definition, they want comfort at the cost of sound doctrine.
It's sad.

Your question that you said I could answer about wrath.

 If you look up the words in the Greek you will also learn that the wrath that believers are not appointed to, is not referring to God's judgement. What he didn't appoint us to is ario, and oregomai. Meaning, that we are not to lift up ourselves, or take up for ourselves, and and we not to desire carnal things, like money. You won't ever see this, if you don't study and parse the Greek, and compare them to other scriptures. This is NOT taking scripture out of context, because there are not certain scriptures for certain things. Even though most people have their pet scriptures, that they somehow believe negate others.

It also says in the proper translation, of Hebrews 3:11, So I swear in their wrath/ orge, and oregomai, they shall not enter into my rest.

God does not appoint true followers unto wrath. If you define it properly.

Because. The wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. Jms 1:20

So God does not pour out his wrath (as your implying it to mean) upon believers. but he will destroy all of our physical bodies because the word says so. And we cannot enter into his rest (the spiritual sabbath) when we are trying to defend ourselves, the bible says that the battle is the Lord's. We are commanded to rest in Him.

a mathetes

[Phil121]

Firstly, the Bible does not teach pre-trib rapture, that is a total lie. The bible says that we are going to be changed AT THE LAST TRUMP. I Cor 15:52

There is actaully a wide variety of opinions on what Paul meant by the "last trump".

I'm no rocket scientist, but if I had one cookie on a plate, and my wife ate it. That's it no more cookies for me after that. Seven more cookies don't appear out of thin air. It's illogical. Or three and 1/2 if your a mid-tribber.

Figurative, NOT literal.

Well you certainly right about the "rocket-scientist" part(I actually am , BTW). The Book of Revlations is filled with a lot of allegory, metaphor, and figurative language. Nevertheless, it will eventually be fulfilled LITERALY.

Anti-Christ, mean anyone, or any (system) that opposes God's boundry. His word, ALL of it is his boundry for us who believe in Him as our only savior. If we change, or try to move that boundry set up by God, we are by definition a Satan (an adversary one who withstands) as in Ps 109:6, or an anti-Christ!
 

God has no boundaries. That is the nature of free-will. All is just for the Christian, although all may not be beneficial. Check it out in Romans.

BTW, the word "Anti-Christ" never appears in Revelation. Only the "Beast" and the False Prophet.


I kinda like your style 'one sheep' but you need to do a bit more studying.

[Reba]

I wonder how long one sheep will be around.

A strong voice of dissention brings scripture to the forefront that often go unnoticed.

Please, do some of us a favor, One sheep and don’t brake the TOC so you can hang around.

Seems the boards have been so sheltered they mostly read the same.  

   I have seen long time Christians spend years searching the Word.  I have seen those who open their hearts and minds to truth grow. Some just are happy to be babes.  His grace is sufficient.

[Bronzesnake]

Why would onesheep be banned?
He has an opinion which some of us here don't agree with - that's fine, as long as there's no false doctrine such as the New World Translation, or the book of Mormon, and Islam etc.

Onesheep has obvious agressive tendencies, but as long as he remains somewhat civil he can post here.

I guess some people here have the impression that we (moderators) are trigger happy, and that we request bans for people who simply have different interpretations of the scriptures than we do. That is simply not true.

Folks get usually banned after three warnings, and it's never simply because of different opinions.

Most posters here don't have a clue as to the things that go on in the background, or they don't get to see some of the posts which get people banned, because we are pretty good at deleting them quickly.

Most posters here don't have to look at the sickening porn that gets posted here, again, because the moderators are on the ball.

We moderators have a job to do here, it's called "moderating"
We enforce the rules which are set up by the ADMIN - moderators here can not, and do not ban people. We give warnings, and in the end it's the owner of this forum who decides who stays and who goes. And no, none of the moderators here are the ADMIN.

So in the end, onesheep has the privelage of being incorrect but if he, or anyone else breaks the rules, especially after being warned, they will get banned.

[Bronzesnake]

onesheep, if you were not so angry maybe you'd have other sheep to play with!

Bronzesnake-

Are you serious? We are not supposed to get angry, or be blunt? Sorry, that's not true. Look up the original meanings of words, and you will see that Paul said I do not come with enticing words, I Cor 2:4 enticing/ peitho
persuade

There is a time and a place for every emotion.
You come out of the gate swinging, and for no reason.
If you get angry by simply debating the scriptures, then I wonder how you handle situations where anger is warrented.

Jesus came baring a sword, not peace. Not for an unbeliever anyway. If we are told that we must agree to disagree, then that is a false doctrine, and we are told to be angry at it.

 So if I disagree with your incorrect interpretations, and we can not come to agreement, that's a false doctrine? Disagreeing is not doctrine my friend.
 Show me a single scripture that tells us to be angry when we disagree.

You come across as a person who is somewhat self rightious, like you believe you have "the" truth, and you are forced into rightious anger when people don't recognise your infallable truth.

I'm not here to make people mad, I didn't write these words.

What kind of response do you expect when you openly admit you are angry? Do you think that attitude might make people mad?

People get mad when their theology gets challenged.

I agree, that's why you are mad. I'm not mad, and as far as I can tell no one else except you is angry.

You bronzesnake, asked if I believe that the whole bible is literal. No, I don't, it has a lot of figurative language, even though you believe that that is just what people say to explain away the scriptures.

Let me explain it so you won't be confused again.
The bible is God's Word - not man's.
Where ever God uses figurative language in His Word, it is always used to describe literal events. Everything in the bible either has, or will literally occur. God, in His eternal wisdom came up with a message that all generations throughout the histroy of the bible, could understand in their own point and time in history. If God had have written the word "nuclear" 2,000 years ago, no one would have been able to understand what it meant. God used figurative language to convey future literal events, so His children could be ready for His return, and so that when these prophecies began to literally unfold, those who wittness them will know "that I am God"


No. Jesus used this idiomatic language all the time. He called

people scorpions, which is still to this day a term used in the middle east for a devious, and evil person. Mountains, were the ruling cities of an empire, born again, was also an expression of the Jews in their verbal commentaries. You see see this for yourself in Alfred Edersheim's books, McClintock and Strong's Cyclodedia of Biblical Literature, and several other references.

What's your point? I know Jesus used figurative language, as well as parables. When Jesus used a parabel to convey a message, He always foretold that it was a parabel, and then gave the literal meaning of it. Please point out some of the examples in Alfred Edersheim's books.

Everything mentioned in the book of Revelation can be found in the Old Testament. All you have to do is study it out to completion. I haven't, because it will take a lifetime.

That's revealing my friend. You make a stand pat statement that "Everything mentioned in the book of Revelation can be found in the Old Testament, All you have to do is study it out to completion" then you go on to say you haven't studied it out! So how do you come to such a conclusion?

You said that we should be able to learn from eachother.
Well, apparently, that seems to be one-sided. Meaning, I can learn from you.
All I did was define words, and you and a few others got mad. That is the first problem. People don't want definition, they want comfort at the cost of sound doctrine.
It's sad.

Hold the boat smokey. Don't paint yourself as a victim in this. You came out with the comment about not being my friend. You came out swinging because I disagreed with your opinions. So I guess you are referring to yourself with statements such as these - People don't want definition, they want comfort at the cost of sound doctrine.
It's sad - People get mad when their theology gets challenged
Remember, you're the one who got mad.

Your question that you said I could answer about wrath.

If you look up the words in the Greek you will also learn that the wrath that believers are not appointed to, is not referring to God's judgement.

Really? So all the devestating events recorded in Revelation is not God's wrath? Hey, tonight when you're praying to our Father, please let Him know that His wrath is not part of the seven year tribulation period, because He apparently doesn't know.

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Take care my friend.

[one sheep]

Bronzesnake-

You said that revelation is absolutely is chronological order, but you
still believe that there is a pre-trib rapture? That's fine, and you
made some good points, but I believe that you are overlooking the time
factor involved. I Corinthians 15:51. The 'key'is in the mystery
(musterion) There are only two mysteries in the bible. The mystery of
the Church, Eph chapters 3 and 5 and the mystery of iniquity, 2nd Thes
2:6. Jesus said in John 6:38 that he will raise the church up at the
last day. So we have to go by what he said, it's not just my opinion, or as you once again condecendingly put it "inaccurate interpretations"
That word last is eskatos, last in the series, like the last echo heard
after shouting into the Grand canyon or something.
Matt 24:31 AFTER the tribulation of those days. He will send his angels
with a great sound of a trumpet.
Angels are messengers, human as well as angelic.
1st angel sounds in Rev 8:7, 2nd, vs 8, 3rd, vs 10, 4th, vs 12, 5th,
Rev
9:1, 6th, vs 13, 7th, Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the
seventh angel, when he should begin to sound THE MYSTERY OF GOD (The
Church) IS FINISHED. As he had declared to his servants the prophets.

That lines up with the last trump doesn't it? And also the bible says
that we are going to be changed by the same operation that destroys the
last enemy of God which is death. So, again, no I do not see the
pre-trib rapture.

Not only that, but there is a shadow picture of this in the Old
Testament story of Jericho. On the 7th day they marched seven times ,
and then shouted and blew trumpets. The end. I believe that it's a good
example of meaning of  the word seven because it's not only a literal number, it's
also an adjective.
It's not literal in the case of the seven churches in Asia because
there
where more than just 7 churches in Asia for one thing, and for another
that word means to be complete, or refined. Well, to be complete means,
finished, right?

[Bronzesnake]

onesheep quote...

You said that revelation is absolutely is chronological order, but you
still believe that there is a pre-trib rapture?

Yes and yes. When you read Revelation you can understand that it is indeed in chronological order. However, some folks get confused when there seems to be verses, which are repeated, and this can lead some to believe they are out of chronological order. If we take a closer look at the details of such verses, we will see that they do in fact describe the same details and events in their exact chronological order, but from two different viewpoints. One verse will describe events from the viewpoint of being in Heaven, and will detail what is happening in Heaven as these events are going on on earth, and there will be an exact description of the events as seen form the viewpoint of being on earth.

That's fine, and you
made some good points, but I believe that you are overlooking the time
factor involved. I Corinthians 15:51. The 'key'is in the mystery
(musterion) There are only two mysteries in the bible. The mystery of
the Church, Eph chapters 3 and 5 and the mystery of iniquity, 2nd Thes
2:6.

That's not accurate my friend...

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

1Cr 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Eph 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Col 1:26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

Col 4:3 Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

1Ti 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

onesheep please answer this question.
Most people on earth today that what Christians believe Jesus will take all believers and give them eternal bodies so they can live forever with Him in Heaven right?
So explain what the "mystery" is in this verse...

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

It's not the timing of His second coming, because He told us the exact day that would happen. So what is the "mystery"?

Jesus said in John 6:38 that he will raise the church up at the
last day. So we have to go by what he said, it's not just my opinion, or as you once again condecendingly put it "inaccurate interpretations"
That word last is eskatos, last in the series, like the last echo heard
after shouting into the Grand canyon or something.

The rapture of His saints and the second coming are completely different events. If you read the verses associated with Rapture, then compare them top the verses which are associated with His second coming, you will see without a doubt that these are two distinct and separate events. One has His saints being lifted up, the other has Jesus and His saints coming down from Heaven to the earth.
There are many examples such as this, which we can make the distinction from the two.
I may start a thread to compare both events in more detail. Right now I am in poor health and I have little energy. I promise you I will begin either a study or a regular thread on the subject when I am better.

Matt 24:31 AFTER the tribulation of those days. He will send his angels
with a great sound of a trumpet.
Angels are messengers, human as well as angelic.

That's a bit misleading my friend.
Angles can take on human form - humans cannot take on angelic form. Jesus was a human, doe that make all humans God?

1st angel sounds in Rev 8:7, 2nd, vs 8, 3rd, vs 10, 4th, vs 12, 5th,
Rev
9:1, 6th, vs 13, 7th, Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the
seventh angel, when he should begin to sound THE MYSTERY OF GOD (The
Church) IS FINISHED. As he had declared to his servants the prophets.

That lines up with the last trump doesn't it? And also the bible says
that we are going to be changed by the same operation that destroys the
last enemy of God which is death. So, again, no I do not see the
pre-trib rapture.

Again, there is confusion between the Rapture and His second coming. The last trump is sounded by an angel - The last trump of God is not found in those verses my friend. It is found only in the Rapture verses.

Take care my friend.

[Reba]

If a mystery is known is it a mystery?

[Bronzesnake]

If a mystery is known is it a mystery?

I dunno...it's a mystery!

[JudgeNot]

REBA is a mystery.
Of course - she's supposed to be.  

Hi Reba - although I've never seen your face - I miss it.  
I sure hope you and yours are in God's comfortable hands.  You moved from "wine country" to "fine country".  I pray you've found comfort in the Sierra backlands.

God bless,
JN

[Bronzesnake]

THE RAPTURE THE GLORIOUS APPEARING

 Here is a comparrison of the Rapture events and the actual glorious appearing events. The Rapture events are on the left, and are in bold text with the glorious appearing comparison right beside it. We can plainly see the contrast.


1. Christ comes in air for His own 1. Christ comes to earth with His own

2. Rapture of all Christians 2. No one raptured

3. Christians taken to Father's House 3. Resurrected saints don't see Father's House

4. No Judgment on earth at Rapture 4. Christ judges earth's inhabitants

5. Church taken to Heaven at Rapture 5. Christ sets up His kingdom on earth

6. Rapture imminent (any moment without knowledge of its time) 6. Glorious Appearing cannot occur for at least seven years

7. No signs for Rapture 7. Many signs for Christ's physical coming

8. For believers only 8. Affects all humanity

9. Time of joy 9. Time of sorrow

10. Before the 7 year Tribulation 10. Immediately after the Tribulation

11. No mention of Satan 11. Satan bound in Abyss for 1000 years

12. Only His own will see Him 12. Every eye will see Him

13. The Judgment Seat of Christ 13. No time or place for Judgment Seat

14. Tribulation begins 14. Millennial kingdom of Christ begins

15. Marriage of Lamb 15. His bride descends with Him


To Be Continued...

[Bronzesnake]

I think it would be better for me to start a new thread on The Pre-Trib Rapture.