The Book of Revelations.....The Antichrist!

[Reba]

Reba,

You are arguing in semantics. Anyone that is against Jesus Christ is anti-christ. Who is more against Jesus than Satan himself?

Just because the word "anti-christ" is not used it does not mean that they are not against Jesus.

The term "The Anti-christ" was given to this person in Revelations because he will be a very major player in deceiving so many the world around and doing all he can against Jesus Christ.

  The term anticrist is given to a person in The Revelatin by man. God did not choose to use the term but man seem bent on its use. What does the Word say about antichrist. The verses have been posted. Who are we to change Gods Word to fit our theology.  Again the scripture tell us plainly who is antichrist.

[Reba]

I have never read where satan denies the Jesus is who He is. IF satan did not believe Jesus is who He is in the flesh would he have had all those babies killed?  The olny place in Scripture that  speaks of 'antichrist' is John and in those Books i do not read them to say  " thee antichrist" as in  one guy.

One more thing to touch on here...

Taking the verse in the little books of John, ANYone who does these things is an antichrist.   Well, the beast is one who does these things and leads the entire world into deception in a grand way.   I agree with you that anyone can be an antichrist using Johns description, but that would certainly include the Beast of Revelation.   Thus many calling Him THE antichrist...due to the power given him to lead the whole world into deception.

Love ya Reba!   I know we've been around and around on this topic....not sure why it never gets old talking with you about it though.  

Grace and Peace!

I almost agree with ya Tim

Just remember although we  say 'Johns description" it is Gods discription.   Scripture does not use the term for a single person.

2:18 ....many antichrists

4:3 .....spirit of antichrist

7  ..... what a antichrist is

[Reba]

This is silly. Where does all evil and lies and murder and every vile disgusting and perverted thought and action origionate from? satan!!

 satan is the father of antichrist. satan is "the" antichrist. It doesn't specifically state "satan is the antichrist" in the Bible, but it is a fact non the less. Why keep arguing against the obvious?

 From now on, whenever you see one of us stating that "the antichrist" will come, just remember that we are talking about satan. There's no good reason to keep on arguing about it every time the subject comes up. The Bible doesn't specifically state "Jesus is God" it's reality though. There are numerous scriptures which prove beyond a shadow of any doubt that Jesus is God. satan is "the antichrist" - he's the father of antichrist - without satan there can be no antichrist.

Let it go my sister.

Please don't get angry at me Reba, I'm not trying to start any trouble with you, but I really believe you are missing the big picture on this one my sister.

Sorry i did read this tell now. Had i, i would not have posted again.

Well i am sorry you  say it is silly to hold to the words of scripture, you are the moderator...
 my thoughts dont seem to be welcome in this thread..bye guys

[Soldier4Christ]

[Bronzesnake]

This is silly. Where does all evil and lies and murder and every vile disgusting and perverted thought and action origionate from? satan!!

 satan is the father of antichrist. satan is "the" antichrist. It doesn't specifically state "satan is the antichrist" in the Bible, but it is a fact non the less. Why keep arguing against the obvious?

 From now on, whenever you see one of us stating that "the antichrist" will come, just remember that we are talking about satan. There's no good reason to keep on arguing about it every time the subject comes up. The Bible doesn't specifically state "Jesus is God" it's reality though. There are numerous scriptures which prove beyond a shadow of any doubt that Jesus is God. satan is "the antichrist" - he's the father of antichrist - without satan there can be no antichrist.

Let it go my sister.

Please don't get angry at me Reba, I'm not trying to start any trouble with you, but I really believe you are missing the big picture on this one my sister.

Sorry i did read this tell now. Had i, i would not have posted again.

Well i am sorry you  say it is silly to hold to the words of scripture, you are the moderator...
 my thoughts dont seem to be welcome in this thread..bye guys

  Huh? How do you come to such a conclusion?. My being a moderator has nothing to do with my right to post and reply to posts. I'm a poster just like everone else Reba. I was posting here for years before I became a moderator.

 

[2nd Timothy]

Greetings from North Central Kansas!   Don't have much time as I am in pursuit of Dorothy's great nemisis      I'll post pics if I find it!  



Reba says:

I almost agree with ya Tim

Don't hurt yourself now....lol   j/k

Just remember although we  say 'Johns description" it is Gods discription.  Scripture does not use the term for a single person.

I think I understand what you are saying sister, but doesn't Gods description, also not exclude the Beast as an antichrist?  I am pretty positive this is what most people mean when they use the reference for that person in Rev.   I have never felt anyone was trying to add or take away from anything by using the term (which I hope I explained well enough).   Anyhoo, I know you have strong feelings about this so I wouldn't want you to damage your convictions in order to see it my way....So for unity's sake, I will refer to the beast as "the beast" from hence forth....fair enough?        

Grace and Peace!

[sabrina]

MY! MY! MY! This has certainly been a lively discussion.....I have been reading most of the thoughts and they are very impressive to say the least.  This is such a revelevant subject given the times we are living in now.  Imagine what the masses know or don't know about this ....how will they collectively agree on who or just what the antichrist is or isn't, which I fear can result in a lot of lost souls. Thanks for the feedback and keep it coming.

[one sheep]

After reading all four pages of this topic, I am left a little confused. Because to main topic got replaced.

Who says that the anti-Christ is a he? The original text, (interlinear Bible) says 'it' not he, or him. And this was the stand of the Church until the mid-eighteen hundreds or so. Which once again puts in question the so-called infalliblity of the KJV. But that is a locked forum, so I won't go there.
But has anyone even considered that it could just as easily, and more probably be figurative language? Not literal, at all.
The early scholars didn't believe what the mainstream teaches about the book of Revelation today. It's not in chronological order, it's not literal obviously because not one so-called prophecy teacher has ever been right, or even close. It's been a guessing game based on presuppositions.
I can't remember for sure who it was, but someone wrote a book called 88 Reasons Why Jesus will Return in Eighty Eight. Or something like that. Well, it didn't happen obviously. That book, as so many that proceeded it are just fuel for the fire.

If you already have a preconcieved idea about anything, it's next to impossible to be taught or accept anything new regardless of the abundance of information presented. Because it enters the comfort zone, and therefore is labeled heresy by those who have made up their minds, who think they understand Revelation. I don't, and am not claiming to.
But I do know some things through long and tedious study, and from having a good teacher.

No one here even stayed on the subject, it went from Revelation to whether or not we will have a physical body at the ressurection.
Is it okay to revive the original topic? I'll give it a shot.

Firstly, the Bible does not teach pre-trib rapture, that is a total lie. The bible says that we are going to be changed AT THE LAST TRUMP. I Cor 15:52

I'm no rocket scientist, but if I had one cookie on a plate, and my wife ate it. That's it no more cookies for me after that. Seven more cookies don't appear out of thin air. It's illogical. Or three and 1/2 if your a mid-tribber.

Figurative, NOT literal.

Revelation 17:1,3,5,9,15,18 -- I will show unto thee the Judgement of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters -- and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast -- having seven heads and ten horns - and upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS -- the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sitteth -- the waters which thou sawest,

where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues -- the woman which thou sawest is that great city which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

harlot - Greek: porne - idolator; to sell

Genesis 11:1,4 --The whole earth was of one language and one speech -- they said let us build us a city and a tower and let us make us a name

language - Hebrew: sepheth - lip or- boundary line.

speech - Hebrew: dabar - arrangement; spoken commandment

city and tower - considered a sovereign kingdom with its own boundary and law (commandment/instruction) (called a mountain)

name - Hebrew: shem - authority; honor; fame

Genesis 2:16 17 -- of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shall not eat of it.

Genesis 3:1,5 The serpent was more subtil than any beast -- (the serpent said) in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and "ye shalt be as gods" --

The sin of the harlot (self-worship) started with Eve and the original beast (the serpent). He ruled Eve and Adam by causing them to move the boundary of God (thou shalt) taking in forbidden boundary (thou shalt not). This established a new law of self-esteem (pride). Eve, the original harlot (idolator), rode upon the beast (serpent), polluting the people (Adam). After the flood, Nimrod reinstituted, at Babel (Babylon), the rebellion of Eden, setting up a new boundary (city and tower), and a new commandment (name or authority). Pride (let us make a name) is the foundation of "all" idolatry (spiritual harlotry) that has polluted the world for all time. It is the system of self-worship. (Repent means to turn from self to God). Babel began a series of "world order" beast (ruling) systems (Dan. 2:31-45; 7:3-7). These empires, (beasts) ruled all the civilized world and fell as one conquered the other (Babylon, Persia/Medes, Greece, Rome. etc). The harlot was the ancient Chaldean idolatry passed down through the empires in the form of Greek and Roman gods (mystery religions). Outlawed in Rome, the worship of idols was reinstituted in the Roman church by Constantine (the deadly wound healed - Rev. 13:3). America has dispensed with icon (statue) worship and retained the "self-esteem" (pride) system of Rome/Babylon and is polluting the world with it. Babylon fell once as a literal empire never to rise again (Jer. 51:26). The second time she will fall as a wicked idolatrous religious system of "self-esteem" and "pride". (Babylon is fallen, is fallen - Rev. 18:2). Revelation 18 shows that it is a material system of wealth and self. America is "New Babylon". The beast (world order), the waters (peoples, multitudes, nations, tongues) and the 7 heads (7 mountains- 7 world systems) are all the same throne where the harlot sits. A mountain was the seat of a ruling empire (Jer. 51:25). Throughout scripture, Babylon is a system of pride. Paul said that covetousness (wanting more for self) is idolatry (Eph. 5:5; Col. 3:5). The "new world order" will be the last "beast" that God will destroy. (Rev. 13:1; 19:19-20)

Anti-Christ, mean anyone, or any (system) that opposes God's boundry. His word, ALL of it is his boundry for us who believe in Him as our only savior. If we change, or try to move that boundry set up by God, we are by definition a Satan (an adversary one who withstands) as in Ps 109:6, or an anti-Christ!


This is enough for now. Any comments, rebuttals, name-calling, whatever. welcome.

a mathetes of Jesus.

[Bronzesnake]

Hello Onesheep.

Are you saying the entire bible is figurative? Or just the New Testament? Or just Revelations?

First off, Revelations is absolutely in chronological order. That is not contested by the most respected biblical scholars my friend. If you read carefully you will see that what appears to be repeated events, are actually the same events being described from two perspectives - one from the perspective of earth and one from the perspective of Heaven - both describe the same events simultaniously but from these two perspectives. Once you recognise this, you will be able to see the chronology much easier.

It seems as though you do not believe there is a literal satan who literaly gets tossed out of the heavens and down to earth.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,  

Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.  

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.  

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.  

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.  

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.  

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man [child].

 These verses are not figurative - they constitute a very detailed account of a very literal event.

There is a Rapture - It is not a lie just because you don't believe it my friend. If thatw as the case then Jesus would be a lie, many people don't believe in Him either.

Those who dismiss the Rapture can never really explain verses such as these without relegating the verses to "myth" or "figurative language" seems all too convienient - I don't believe it, so it's figurative and mythical.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.  

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.  

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.  

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
This is a major stumbling block to those who don't believe the Rapture. It clearly says "the trump of God" Go search the entire N.T. and show me where else the trump of God is found. It's not the seventh trump - the seventh trump is blown by an angel, not God Himself. This is a major key.
The last trump of God is the signal for the Rapture, as these verses clearly describe. Read on and see what happens immediately following the final trump of God...

and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  

Pay close attention to what's going on here my friend. Jesus isn't on His white horse. Jesus isn't arriving with a universe wide lightning bolt. Jesus is not returning to earth with His saints. Jesus doesn't touch the ground. Jesus  descends from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: Jesus raises His faithful up to the CLOUDS to MEET HIM in the AIR.
 
Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.  

Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;  

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.  

Read these verses and pay close attention to what's going on.

Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.  

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Do you see it? Here's John talking with what John believes is an angel. Only it turns out to be a man and not an angel at all! What are living men doing in heaven before the second coming my friend? The second coming is about to occur in the folloing verse. These verses are in chronological order, you can not argue that fact.


Now compare these following second coming verses to the Rapture verses from 1Thes 4 and try to pick out the major differences.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Jesus is on His white horse here, and about to make war and judgment. In the Rapture verses, Jesus is not depicted on a horse at all, and there's no mention of war or judgment.


Rev 19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.  

This depiction of Jesus is nowhere to be found in the Rapture verses.


Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  

This depiction of Jesus is nowhere to be found in the Rapture verses either.


Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  

In this verse we are following Jesus on white horses and we have received our reward. We are coming from Heaven with Jesus down to earth.

In the Rapture verses we are not on horses, we do not have our reward, and we are being raised from the earth up to Heaven. The total opposite of what Rev 19:14 depicts.


Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  

These Revelation (second coming)verses make a clear distinction from the 1Thes 4 verses - they can not be confused as being the same events - the reason is obvious to any who would accept that God does not pour His wrath upon His faithful servants. What kind of God do we think He is? Even sinful men don't reward their faithful children with a snake instead of a fish.


Which of these two are true...

1) God does pour His wrath upon His faithful servants

2)God does not pour His wrath upon His faithful servants

Either He does, or He doesn't. It can't be both ways. If you believe He does, then I challenge you to give even a single sripture to back that up.
Remember, it wasn't God who cursed Job, it was satan.

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.  

Good luck

[one sheep]

Snake-

The "my friend" diatribe is unnecessary.It sounds very belittling. I'm not your friend obviously, if I do not agree with you. I do believe in the parousia (physical arrival) of Jesus Christ so let's just clear that up first.

I will take my time looking over and studying all that you wrote, and reply in a day or two.

Till then.

[nChrist]

Snake-

The "my friend" diatribe is unnecessary.It sounds very belittling. I'm not your friend obviously, if I do not agree with you. I do believe in the parousia (physical arrival) of Jesus Christ so let's just clear that up first.

I will take my time looking over and studying all that you wrote, and reply in a day or two.

Till then.

One Sheep,

Are you REALLY saying that brothers in Christ can't be friends if they disagree on very difficult portions of Bible Prophecy?

If so, that's a very sad position to take. Brothers and sisters in Christ should be able to discuss differences and maintain fellowship and friendship. Discussing differences can be a learning experience for everyone and can be part of our fellowship.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Galatians 6:9-10 NASB  Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

[Bronzesnake]

Amen Tom.

Jesus says we are to love others as we love ourselves - Jesus says we are brothers and sisters.

If my calling you "my friend" comes off as belittling, then you have a problem my friend.

[Soldier4Christ]

Jesus is the greatest friend that we can ever have. I thank God that He does not turn His back on me just because I may not be 100% right on such subjects as this.

[one sheep]

"Brothers and sisters in Christ should be able to discuss differences and maintain fellowship and friendship. Discussing differences can be a learning experience for everyone and can be part of our fellowship. "

Yes, but there are some factors that are getting overlooked here.
1. 1Cr 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

The same thing=lego, to speak, teach, affirm, and so on.

It has the basic same meaning as confessing Christ.
Homolegeo, or of the same, and words.

And if we are not speaking the same words, then we cannot be friends according to the Bible, it's not my opinion. This is how iron sharpens iron.

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed:

god speed, chairo, rejoice with, hail etc.

A few verses before this Paul mentions confess, which is again homolegeo or, saying the same thing as another, agree with.

We are to agree with God, if we choose to save face with each other, and are not speaking the same thing that Jesus spoke, then we cannot be friends with God according to the bible. That would make us anti-christ wouldn't it?

I'm not trying to be contentious, this is what the bible says. Do you deny this?

I don't believe that the bible teaches a pre-trib, and I will present the reasons why. But I will not agree to disagree, the bible does not teach that.

So, when you called me friend, it was not in love, not really, because you ended your letter with "good luck" Or, I'm right and you are wrong but please humor us.

Jesus said that we are his friends IF we do whatsoever he commands us.
How can two walk together except they agree?

I will send you the reasons why I don't see the pre-trib. If you choose to engage them, cool. If not, that's fine too. But I hope you will at least seriously consider the reasons. Then, you can lock me out of the forum, won't be the first time.

a mathetes of Christ.

[Soldier4Christ]

With a contentious attitude such as that I can see why you got "locked out" of other forums.

1Co 4:21  What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?

If you look at the verse of 1Cor 1:10 and look at the verses before and after it you will see that it is speaking of the teaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

2Jo 1:10  If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

You reference this verse also. Again this is talking of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.



1Co 14:36  What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?