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Author Topic: The Trinity  (Read 3831 times)
bluelake
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« on: May 19, 2005, 12:48:54 AM »

As a Christian, how would you define the doctrine of the Trinity?

Blessings,
bluelake
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« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2005, 01:26:09 AM »

As I'm sure you know, the Trinity, is not mentioned in the Bible.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.


Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Ephesians 2:13-18 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Jude 1:20-21 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, 21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Acts 2:32-33 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

And most importantly;
Isaiah 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

Only one other time is Holy, holy, holy is mentioned in the Bible, Revelation 4:8. So with holy, holy, holy, being done three times. You have, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

I'm sure that there are other. That can answer this question better, then I can. As I am on the tired side, right now.

Resting with the Lord.
Bob

Revelation 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
^^^Please note, this is a random verse, that comes up. ^^^
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asaph
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« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2005, 03:31:16 AM »

As a Christian, how would you define the doctrine of the Trinity?

Blessings,
bluelake
bluelake,
Jehovah is a wonderful personal living God. He cannot be fully comprehended by finite people but He can be loved and enjoyed by all of us. God is triune in essence just as He is light, life, and love. He is Holy in every way. The Bible does not teach doctrine like we do because like food it is meant to be eaten as a whole and not dissected to satisfy our intellect. The Bible is a book of life bringing us into the living God. God is triune not for our understanding but for our enjoyment in experience. We can experience the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as we pray over and read the scriptures. By pray/reading we actually are enabled by His grace to live the eternal life He has freely given us. Doctrine by itself is very dry and lifeless. Many search the scriptures because in them they think they can gain eternal life yet they will not come to Jesus. Jesus is where we find life and peace. He has made known to us the oneness of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit! Blessed be His Name!

asaph
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JudgeNot
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« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2005, 10:34:24 AM »

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.


We know that the Word is Jesus:
John 1:14
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
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« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2005, 02:09:58 PM »

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BroHank
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« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2005, 04:58:32 PM »

Has anyone ever considered the verse....

Mat 27:46  And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


Not sure, but I often wonder about that verse and why Jesus says it twice.

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Tim

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« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2005, 08:48:00 AM »

Yes, Psalm 22 is no doubt what is spoken here, but I think Jesus clearly meant what He was saying/quoting, don't you?   So if Jesus was forsaken at that moment as He actually became a sin offering on the cross for us...

2Co 5:21  For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Then Psalms 22 (Prophetically written) and Christ fulfilling Psalms 22 calls out to God twice.  Is this Coincidence?  I'm not so sure.

Back to the original thought....
My God (Father) My God (Holy Spirit) why have you forsaken me???   I really don't know that this is what is implied, but I don't think its mere poetry or coincidence that He cries out to God twice here, or that Psalms 22 prophetically writes it this way.  Thus the original question.

Thoughts anyone?

Grace and Peace!
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Tim

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« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2005, 11:22:53 PM »

Hello everyone,
I like all of your answers. They refer to Ps22, where Jesus was quoting that passage. When he took the sins of the world upon himself causing  him great anguish ,to be separated from God the Father. Jesus suffered this double death for us so we wouldn't have to. He took our place on the cross.

Praise his Holy Name. Wonderful Savior.

God bless,
bluelake
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« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2005, 11:41:05 PM »

2ndT said/asked:
Quote
My God (Father) My God (Holy Spirit) why have you forsaken me???  I really don't know that this is what is implied, but I don't think its mere poetry or coincidence that He cries out to God twice here, or that Psalms 22 prophetically writes it this way.  Thus the original question.
Thoughts anyone?

Tim - I think that is another one for the "campfire ministry".  What a great discussion topic for a long-weekend-fellowship!

Campfire Ministry Topics - - - we should make a list!
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« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2005, 11:52:12 PM »

Quote
May I ask you from your above post, is it your conviction that the Father left Jesus on the cross to die? Or are you suggesting that Christ's nature was changed on the cross from the Corinthian's verse? I can assure you that neither of these things happened. Maybe the exression "My God, my God" is an emphasis (Hebrews did that sort of thing) of emotional and physical distress. After all Jesus was human.

God bless,
hope's daughter


I certainly believe that the expression Jesus uses, tells us the extent of the agony He experienced on the cross.   Understand that I do not submit Jesus ever lost His righteousness, blamelessness, or deity, but I do believe that something we do not fully understand happened at that moment.   Certainly God the Father was pleased with His Son and His justice and Righteousness and fully accepted the death of Jesus on our behalf.

With that in mind, let us again consider the question.   Did Jesus become sin on the cross, having all of mankind's sins imputed on He who was blameless and Righteous on our behalf?  Were all of mankind's sins from the beginning of time to the end, imputed to innocent Jesus Christ on the cross that they might be put to death and paid for by Him for us?    I'm sure we all agree yes to this.    

Can God have fellowship with sin?  The answer must be no!    Again, not that Christ suffered loss of deity or was guilty of any sin, but He bore all of our sin, literally becoming sin that it might be put to death in Him on the cross.  

2Co 5:21  For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 I most certainly would submit, that somehow, someway, Jesus suffered some sort of separation from the Father, so that WE could be reconciled to the Father having our sin debt paid in full!

Heb 13:5  [.....] for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Having been there Himself, He bore our payment in full and will never forsake or leave us!   The Father, having hid His face from our sin on Christ at the cross, remembers them no more when we come to Christ and obtain righteousness and forgiveness through Him.   How beautiful is that?



Again.....


Mat 27:46  And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


IMO, I believe this is reference to God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit, and Jesus bore this affliction also on our behalf.

I could be wrong, but if so, the price He paid for us becomes even more unfathomable.





Grace and Peace!
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Tim

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« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2005, 07:21:11 PM »

Perhaps a bad choice of words on my part.   I fully agree with you hopes_daughter, that Jesus was God.

100% God and 100% man.   I do not believe that the Son was disolved, rejected, etc in any way shape or form from the Father or Godhead.....just to be sure we are on the same page.  Perhaps it was said in His humanity, I don't know.

Whether or not I fully understand or comprehend the full implication of the phrase, I do believe Jesus did mean what He said..

Mat 27:46  And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


Rather than try to explain my own interpritation what I think it might mean,  (which could be wrong) I will just the verse speak for itself.   Smiley

Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2005, 04:35:34 AM »

Hopes_Daughter,

Let me add a couple of simple questions that might unravel the answers.

Was Jesus Christ fully man, YET VERY GOD?

Did the man Jesus Christ die on the Cross?

Was the HOLY GHOST given up from the physical body of Jesus Christ at the time of the physical body's death?

The answers are Yes, Yes, Yes. Now, answer this one:

Was the HOLY GHOST alive and GOD?

Yes

Here's a harder one:

Did God physically AND spiritually die on the Cross?

No - Certainly not the SPIRIT of GOD. In fact, THE POWER AND REALITY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS RELEASED AS THE COMFORTER PROMISED BY JESUS WHO WOULD COME TO THOSE WHO ACCEPTED HIM.

If you answer all of these questions, there is still mystery in the answers. Jesus Christ was most definitely GOD made manifest in the flesh. The man felt pain, cried, and did physically die.

One final question:

When believers hurt and cry, who do they cry out to?

Our Heavenly Father!

This answers the question for me. I hope that I was able to express this in a way that others will understand. Regardless, this is the answer for me. I didn't say that I understood all of it.

Love In Christ,
Tom



 1 Timothy 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
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seekeraftertruth
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« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2005, 11:23:28 AM »

     Discussing the Doctrine of the Trinity can get one in a LOT of hot water on some of these forum sites.....this is an extremely controversial doctrine.  Most who call themselves Christians are believers in the doctrine, as this has been a part of Christian "tradition"  since the 4th century. Yet, there are others, who are also Christians, who do not believe this doctrine, and do not go along with such doctrines simply because they have become "traditional teachings."  

Both sides present Scriptural arguments and quotes in "support" of their position.....and usually the "trinitarians" have no idea that two of the most frequently used verses they quote are completely spurious verses that were deliberately added by the Roman Church to support the doctrine [Matthew 28:19 and 1st John 5:7] and are not original Scripture. There are other verses that seem to support the doctrine, however, so one cannot argue that there is "no support" for it.  On the other hand, there are a number of verses that seem to indicate the authors did not view Jesus as part of a "trinity," and the doctrine itself, as pointed out by Blackeyepeas, is never mentioned in Scripture. Whether correctly or incorrectly, this is a "man-made doctrine," and it would be foolish to argue otherwise, as the historical emergence of this doctrine is well known, and reverts directly to the Council of Nicea in 325 AD and again in, I believe 384 AD, or thereabouts. The doctrine was unknown to 1st/2nd century Christians, and certainly the Hebrews for 4,000 years had never considered God to be a "trinity."

Whether correct or incorrect, is belief in the trinity necessary to our salvation?  No.  It is not required that we believe in the trinity doctrine in order to be saved. [A fact for which I am thankful, since I do not believe it, and haven't got a clue how to "explain" the "trinity!"][In fact, the church itself doesn't even have a hard & fast explanation, and it took the Roman Church over 1100 years to make the doctrine official at the Council of Trent in the 16th century!]  But it doesn't matter....belief in the doctrine is not required for salvation.

I, personally, do not believe this doctrine is correct, but that is only my own opinion based on my own knowledge, and I admit my opinion is heavily influenced by all the controversy surrounding the main verses used to "support" the doctrine, the church's own inability to offer a definition for the doctrine, and the fact that the doctrine was unknown to Christians in the 1st-3rd centuries and is a product of the late 3rd/early 4th century Roman Church based on a decision by Constantine that is itself very controversial! In my own opinion, once the "spurious verses" are eliminated, there is no real textual support for the "trinity,"  I see no reason to create a man-made doctrine that was neither understood, nor needed, for the 4,300+ years prior to its fabrication by the Roman Church.  But this is just my own personal opinion and belief.  I can see where a person could "decide" to believe EITHER WAY....pro-trinity, or anti-trinity.

One can get into the same type of controversy regarding the
"pre-existence of Christ doctrine."  There are those who believe in his pre-existence, and there are those who do not, and it is unlikely the two sides will ever see eye to eye.  But is belief in that doctrine required for salvation?  No.

Doctrinal arguments or debates are fun, and sometimes can lead to a better understanding, but in the long run they are meaningless......the only thing that counts is what is Scripturally required for SALVATION.......and that, truly, is the Bible's entire purpose, as the written Word of God....to bring us to salvation
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« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2005, 12:17:34 PM »

seekeraftertruth,

I believe that you misunderstood what was said and it wasn't blackeyedpeas that said it but rather Dreamweaver. What was said is "the Trinity, is not mentioned in the Bible." He was saying that the word is not used there. He did not say that the Bible does not support this doctrine. If you read the rest of his post you will see that he does support this doctrine.

The verses that he gave are just a few of those that do support it, there are more than just a "few spurious verses" supporting this doctrine.

To start with check out the two threads under Apologetics labeled "Is Jesus God?" Part One and Part Two and you wil see the many, many verses throughout the Bible that do support it.

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=6;action=display;threadid=2397

http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=6;action=display;threadid=6495

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« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2005, 01:05:59 PM »

Right...it was DreamWeaver that said it....sorry about that.

However, I stand by my position......aside from the spurious verses, yes there are many other verses used to offer support for the doctrine......just like there are many verses that support the opposing view......which is exactly why there are "pro" and "anti" trinitarians.

The only thing I would like to add is that it appears to me that trinitarians are applying all those verses "after the fact."
The early (1st/3rd century) Christians had no such doctrine and did not teach any such doctrine.  And certainly the Hebrews never had any such doctrine....in fact, for over 4,000 years they clearly understood the "holy spirit" to be the active force/will of God, not a "person."  It was man who personified the holy spirit. The trinity doctrine admittedly is a product of the 3rd/4th century Roman Church.

I'm sorry, but I do not accept "after the fact" arguments as being conclusive......if there was a "trinity," don't you suppose it would have been known to the Christians/Church of the first three centuries? I believe you, and other trinitarians, are interpreting the verses "after the fact," in the light of the doctrine/tradition, which itself didn't even begin until after the third century. The history of the formation of the doctrine is well known, and the plain and simple fact is, it is a product of the 4th century Roman Church, decided by Constantine, in favor of Athanasius, then ratified by the Council at Nicea, and the doctrine had no existence prior to the late 3rd/early 4th century.  What you, and other trinitarians do, is try to interpret and apply Bible verses retroactively, after the fact, in order to support this doctrine. What you cannot seem to understand is there was no such doctrine prior to the late 3rd/early 4th century. The early Christians/Church actually booted people out for believing Christ/God were equal, never mind treating the holy spirit as a co-equal third person in some "trinity."  [A History of the Christian Church 2nd Ed. 1985 Williston Walker, "AD 200. . Noetus had been expelled from the Smyrnaean church for teaching that Christ was the Father, and that the Father himself was born, and suffered, and died."]
See also:
http://www.christadelphia.org/trinityhistory.htm
http://www.heraldmag.org/99nd_3.htm
http://bama.ua.edu/~msa/trinity.html
http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/trinity.htm

But, as noted previously, believing in the "trinity" is not required for salvation......so I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, one way or another.  Some believe the doctrine is correct, some don't, and I just happen to be one of those who don't.

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