The Trinity

[cris]

ELI, ELI, LMANA SABACHTHANI

Some think Jesus quoted the Psalms.  If He had, He would have spoken these words in Hebrew instead of Aramaic.  If Jesus translated them from Hebrew, He would have used the Aramaic word "nashatani" which means "forsaken me", instead of the word "shabacktani" which in this case means "kept me."  The soldiers who stood by the cross thought Jesus was calling on Elijah because the word for Elijah in Aramaic is "Elia" which is very similiar to that for God, "Eli."

The disciples and women who were from Galilee never would have thought that Jesus would say that God had forsaken Him.
How could Jesus say that God had forsaken Him when He told His disciples that the entire world would forsake Him, even they, but that His Father would never forsake Him.

These words, Eli Eli, Imana sabachthani, are even used today by Assyrians when they suffer and die unjustly.  Instead of complaining they leave everything up to God.  They believe that it's God's desire they should go through such experiences.  This is the reason why in the East, committing suicide is just about unheard of.

[2nd Timothy]

cris

I am thankful for this topic, as it has led me to be enriched through a study in the word over the last 2 days.   I have come to realize in a fresh and new way, the enormous price that Christ paid for my sins.

A few points on this thread, then I will relent rather than debate.   I plan on posting a sermon in a new thread, which I found shortly after my last post.   I encourage you to read it with an open heart.  It has strengthened me tremendously in my Love and awe of my Saviour.


Both Matthew and Mark plainly interpret what "lama sabachthani" meant.   Both also indicate great distress as Christ cried out in a loud voice.  The cry was one of agony, agreeing with the true meaning of the verse and the plain interpretation.

Next point.   Jesus did not say the Father would NEVER forsake Him.  He said they (the 12) would forsake Him, but YET He was not alone because the Father was with Him.  Jesus is the one who told US He would NEVE forsake US.

Next Point.   I will ask this rhetorically.  What is the full punishment for sin?   If you and I stand before a perfect JUST God without Christ on judgment day, what will His judgment be on us for our sin?

Next Point.  If someone were to stand in our place and take that judgment on themselves, would they not have to bear the full brunt of Perfect Justice, just as we would in order to satisfy the Perfect Holy Judge?  

Reply if you wish, but after searching Gods heart on this matter, it is my strong conviction that Jesus did indeed bear the FULLNESS of Gods wrath and Justice for our sin....including being forsaken in that dark hour.   Holy Justice was served by a sinless Perfect, and Holy God.  

There was no favor given to the guiltless Son of God.   Jesus bore the full effect of our punishment that The Father's  perfect Justice demanded.  To stand in place of one convicted, grants no favors of comfort or ease on the judges part.   The Judge, hath Judged accordingly!   ALL which was owed by us, Jesus bore on Himself innocently, and paid the FULL PRICE of our debt, that WE might be FREE!


Grace and Peace!

[nChrist]

2nd Timothy Said:

There was no favor given to the guiltless Son of God.  Jesus bore the full effect of our punishment that The Father's  perfect Justice demanded.  To stand in place of one convicted, grants no favors of comfort or ease on the judges part.  The Judge, hath Judged accordingly!  ALL which was owed by us, Jesus bore on Himself innocently, and paid the FULL PRICE of our debt, that WE might be FREE!

Brother, Another Amen!! For me, there is only one thing left to say:

Thanks be unto God for His unspeakable GIFT, Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour Forever!

[Jemidon2004]

Very well put to 2nd timothy and cris. I have one side note to add to it. When Jesus died on the Cross, and he said "Tetelestai" "It is finished" The war was won there. On that rugged cross, pierced by our transgressions. He bore the price, and won the victory so that we may have a CHANCE so that we may be free. Here's a verse from a song that i listen to that explains this.

Broken and poured out for the love of His creation,
God chose to pay a debt He didn't owe.
Bearing my pain,But not one was his equal,
And wearing my shame so that I could know Him

He gave us all he had to give,
So that we could truely live
So let's give all we have to him,
So that we can be completely free.

As they placed the thorns on his brow
As they drove the nails into his hands and his feet
He looked past the moment to where we are now
And gave us the victry from what seemed his defeat

He said, "Here's my body, it's broken in two,
Here is my blood, let it cover you
All that i have, is now yours to recieve
Payment in full, so that you can be free!

He gave us all he had to give
so that we could truely be free...


I like that song. It's by Big Daddy Weave and it is called "Completely Free" I thank God that He finished my salvation up there on the cross. Because i know that because my sins were pierced and nailed to that cross, that I am completely free.

I'll post an excerpt from one of my sermons dealing with this verse:

Turn to John 19:23 it says this also Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head and gave up the ghost” The greek word used is Tetelestai which is a cry of purpose, a shout of triumph. He was being sacrificed for a specific purpose and that purpose was now fulfilled! Don’t you see…Christ was a living sacrifice, the Ultimate Sacrifice. THis cry of purpose gave sinners an anchor to hold onto. It gave us as Christians a present help in time of need. To know that our Savior, has already suffered and bled and died, so that WE would have life, and have it eternally. Not to ever lose it, nor forsake it...but to have it eternally. As paul wrote..."So that You KNOW you are saved." NOT so that you "Think" you are saved, not so that you "Speculate" that you are saved. But that you KNOW that you are saved.

Yet He did it for you because He loves you and I. Check this verse out in Romans Chapter 5:8-10 Read along with me:

(Rom 5:  But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.(Rom 5:9)  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.(Rom 5:10)  For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


 Here is a poem that a friend wrote that may give a deeper meaning to what God says in His Word…Instead of Him being up there. We deserved to be up there suffering. Not Him! Yet in His unconditional Love, He did it anyway.

It should of been me
alone i sat, the day he died
how could life go on?
I watched as they beat him
i watched them scorn him
this man who could heal
this one who had shown nothing but love
now had died for it all
his one true friend denying
any knowledge of him
the soldiers shoved a crown made of thorns on his head
as the blood bagan to flow
they drug him to a cross
Nailing his feet and hands to it
mocking his name
as he bagan to die
shouldn't that crown be ours
should not we be the ones to die
the nails should have been in our hands
but his love for us surpassed our sin
our salvation on his mind
not his pain, not his death
just his love for us.
His voice echo's in my mind
as they take his body down
"father forgive them for they know not what they do"
how could i let an innocent man die!
the was mine.
yet i stood by and let him die
his pain was mine
yet he took it upon himself
what kind of love is this?
that causes a man to die for another
shouldn't that crown be ours
should not we be the ones to die
the nails should have been in our hands
but his love for us surpassed our sin
our salvation on his mind
not his pain, not his death
just his love for us.
three days he laid in the grave
soldiers guarding the place he lay
yet death, a grave and soldiers
couldn't hold the son of God
and he's alive forever more

Just a few thoughts friends.

Joshua

[nChrist]

Amen Brother Joshua!

Our Lord and Saviour did win the biggest VICTORY in the history of mankind at the CROSS.  It is only because of HIS finished work on the CROSS that we can claim VICTORY IN JESUS!

Love In Christ,
Tom

2 Corinthians 5:20-21  Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

[asaph]

I would like to add a diferent twist on Psalm 22.
Psa 22:1   My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Man in great distress cries out. Jesus as the last Adam cries out:
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

When Jesus cried he cried for all mankind as our representative. He was cut off but not for himself. He was in the likeness of sinful flesh, yet without sin. Christ was crucified as the last Adam.

But did God the Father actually forsake Jesus. The answer is no.

Verse 24 of the same Psalm says:
Psa 22:24  For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

This proves that Jesus was not forsaken. As the last Adam he felt like He was forsaken so he cried out "WHY?" This speaks of His humanity his oneness with us, his identification with us. He felt our forsakenness when He took our sins in his own body on the tree. But he was heard on our behalf by the Father who so loved us that He did not forsake us but rather took our sins and cast them as far as the east is from the west!

Christ was crucified as the last Adam but was not forsaken because He was raised as the second Man. In His resurrection we find humanity given a new sart as the new Man. In Christ we are a New Man. Out of Jews and Gentiles He calls us to be one New Man in Christ.

Eph 2:15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Eph 4:22  That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23  And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24  And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

asaph

[nChrist]

Asaph,

Thanks Brother for some excellent material to add to this study. This is not an easy or quick area to study, and many Bible scholars have arrived at varying opinions.

I like to concentrate on the more simple points:

JESUS CHRIST was Very God made manifest in the flesh.

JESUS lived and breathed as a man.

HE felt pain, joy, and sorrow as a man.

HE was Holy, without sin, and RIGHTEOUS.

HE was falsely convicted and sentenced to death.

HE was crucified, the most horrible execution method ever devised by man.

HE felt PAIN and bled as a man.

HE was obedient unto death as the only perfect sacrifice for the sins of mankind.

At death, HE gave up the Holy Ghost, the promised Comforter who would come to those who loved HIM.

HE was buried, but HE arose from the dead on the third day.

HE was seen by many witnesses, and HE ascended back to Heaven as our LIVING Lord and Saviour forever.
_______________________

In conclusion, I know that HE suffered as a man on the CROSS, but HE was innocent. I am the one who was guilty, and HE suffered and died for me in my place. In fact, HE bore the sins of the world in HIS body and took the suffering and sentence that the entire world deserved. HE offered Himself as a GIFT to all who would believe, have childlike faith, confess, and ask HIM to be the ONLY LORD over their lives.

Brother Asaph, the Truth that strikes me the hardest is our Holy LORD loved us enough to die in our place and take the punishment in HIS own body that we deserve for our sins. By HIS stripes, we are healed. By HIS BLOOD, we are redeemed. By HIS finished work on the Cross, we are rescued from the curse of sin and death.

I think that the biggest question here is: Was the pain, suffering, and death of JESUS real?  YES!!!  Was HE completely innocent and die in the place of sinful men, the JUST for the unjust?  YES!!!  Is HE our Everlasting Saviour today?  YES!!!

Love In Christ,
Tom

II Timothy 4:8  Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

[2nd Timothy]

Brother Asaph, the Truth that strikes me the hardest is our Holy LORD loved us enough to die in our place and take the punishment in HIS own body that we deserve for our sins. By HIS stripes, we are healed. By HIS BLOOD, we are redeemed. By HIS finished work on the Cross, we are rescued from the curse of sin and death.

I think that the biggest question here is: Was the pain, suffering, and death of JESUS real?  YES!!!  Was HE completely innocent and die in the place of sinful men, the JUST for the unjust?  YES!!!  Is HE our Everlasting Saviour today?  YES!!!

Amen!   What was needed to fulfull Gods Righteousness and Justice on our behalf was completed.   Of this we can all be assured and in full agreement!  

Grace and Peace!

[asaph]

bep and 2t

Amen!

asaph

[bluelake]

I would like to add a diferent twist on Psalm 22.
Psa 22:1   My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Man in great distress cries out. Jesus as the last Adam cries out:
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

When Jesus cried he cried for all mankind as our representative. He was cut off but not for himself. He was in the likeness of sinful flesh, yet without sin. Christ was crucified as the last Adam.

But did God the Father actually forsake Jesus. The answer is no.

Verse 24 of the same Psalm says:
Psa 22:24  For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

This proves that Jesus was not forsaken. As the last Adam he felt like He was forsaken so he cried out "WHY?" This speaks of His humanity his oneness with us, his identification with us. He felt our forsakenness when He took our sins in his own body on the tree. But he was heard on our behalf by the Father who so loved us that He did not forsake us but rather took our sins and cast them as far as the east is from the west!

Christ was crucified as the last Adam but was not forsaken because He was raised as the second Man. In His resurrection we find humanity given a new sart as the new Man. In Christ we are a New Man. Out of Jews and Gentiles He calls us to be one New Man in Christ.

Eph 2:15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Eph 4:22  That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23  And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24  And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

asaph

You seem to be interpreting the scriptures that you gave.

bluelake