The Church

[felix102]

What is the Church? The Church as you know is suppose to be the body of Christ. So why are there so many churches in one local area? Are we one body or many bodies? Which is mightier: 10 soldiers or 1000?


1 Corinthians 1

12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?


This is the same thing when we say we belong to _______(fill in) Church. When we say 'I belong to this church' or 'I'm a baptist, catholic etc.' There is no such thing as a baptist church, methodist, lutheran, presbytarian, pentacostal, catholic, orthodox...Church. There is only one Church and this is it's name...

1 Corinthians 1:2

To the CHURCH OF GOD in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, TOGETHER with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ - their Lord and ours:

Church of God. Not Church of _________(man's doctrine). The only division and seperation among the Body of believers is physical location. It is the Church of God in Texas, Church of God in California, Church of God in Ohio, Church of God in Oklahoma, Church of God in Florida. We are all the Church of God. The only difference is your locality.

And it says "To those sanctified in Christ Jesus and CALLED TO BE HOLY." Now take note of this Word!
"TOGETHER WITH" Together with who? With  "ALL THOSE" With all those where? All those "EVERYWHERE" TOGETHER...WITH...ALL THOSE...EVERYWHERE...with those who call on the Lord.

2 Timothy 2:22
Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Jesus prayed for this!

John 17:21
that all of them may be ONE, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

John 17:23
I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete UNITY to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

[JudgeNot]

Hey... you aren't talking about the denomination called Church of God, now are you?  

Amen Felix - the term "Body of Christ" is singular. We who know Him as Jesus Christ, God and the original Embodyment of the Spirit should be united in Him.

I feel, however, that we are much closer to that reality than some may realize.  Other than a few fringe groups on the left or right edges of Christianity, we are one body under Christ.  The differences in our scriptural interpretations and our worship preferences are the factors that drive us into a specific building full of like-minded individuals. We have individual learning patterns and methods of praise.  But when we put these differences aside - (which is actually very easy for a Christian and done without even realizing it) - in the most important areas we are united. Although I choose to attend services in a specific building with specific friends - I don't care what it's called; Baptist, Methodist, Praise Chapel - it's just a building we use to glorify Him.  I would think most folks (Christians) think the same...

[JudgeNot]

I thought about it a while and have more to add to my last post:
I am of the opinion that different “denominations” actually do quite well in unifying as one body.  A group of people centered on Christ cannot be wrong.  I had my Christian upbringing in a town in the American Bible Belt – a church on every corner.  But when we got together as a town – say at a high school football game – and had invocation, all 10,000 people were praying to the same God in a unified manner.  I’ve been to Billy Graham crusades where 20 or 30 thousand people – all of varying “denominations” were one in Christ.  My point is that just because we attend a building with a sign identifying us with a certain group of Christ-centered people does not, should not, cannot or will not alienate us from other groups of Christ-centered individuals.  As long as someone can say “Jesus is God” and “I believe He is who He says He is” then that someone is my brother or sister in the Body of Christ and it’s only Jesus who can judge beyond that.  

Be Blessed!
JN

[felix102]

Hey Brother,

I'm not finished with "The Church" I still have a lot more to add and I'm sorta having a hard time. There is still a really big problem. I am far from finish. I hope to get to that soon. If it is God's will that it be done however.  

What you have said seems right but there is a big problem underneath it all. Just for thoughts consider this:

I grew up in a town like yours. A church on every corner. Ask yourself these questions honestly...

Why are there so many churches in one local area?
You are a member of one church...would it be okay to move from church to church every week however?
Would the congregation at your church object?
Would you object to a member of your church doing that?


What you speak of Judgenot is a universal aspect of the one Body of Christ. It is apparent that all believers around the world are of one body and it is obviously not a problem for believers in Christ to come together under one roof (such as a crusade). But this is not what I am talking about. It is the local aspect. The local aspect is where things actually take place. This is practicality.

When we talk about the universal Church that is nearly completely ideal. It is easy to say 'united'. However, when you get down to your church and the churches around you...there is no unity. Maybe for you Judgenot there is... however, I cannot deny what God revealed to me. In our walk we are walking in discord. And to walk is to do something pratically. To do something practically that is something we must do with our locality.

In the military, 10 men marching across a make-shift bridge is no problem. They're marching right left right left. However take 1000 or maybe just 100 men and have them march in one accord. Left right left right across that bridge. You know what? They cant because it could bring down that bridge. So they're commanded to simply walk across. A six string guitar sounds nice when the strings are tuned to one accord. However a twelve string guitar sounds fuller and better when that is tuned to one accord. On a nice sunny day the light from the sun does not burn the grass. However, take a magnifying glass and focus just a portion of that light and you could start a fire with that focuses light.

Do you think there is a need for churches to be within 50 yards of each other? You are only scattering the light and scattered light is not strong enough to burn holes through anything. But you bring that light together and focus it like with that magnifying glass...and you can set anything on fire. You bring together more strings and when strummed together they sound more beautiful and full. When you have not just 10 but 100 men marching in one accord over that bridge; steping with one foot in unison, the impact from each step is dangerous enough to bring that bridge down. So if we all walk in one accord we become a mighty force that will crush Satan! We become a dangerous warrior...that is the Church.

There is more that I was going to say regarding this issue. I'm sure that it would have made this clear. I really believe we should just take a look at what Zaddikimyah wrote. He wrote "Messiah's Last Petition for Unity" http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=22;action=display;threadid=7163

I think that explains what I was trying to say and was going to say. The day I was going to say this I looked at that post and lost my words. Maybe that was all God needed.

[Bronzesnake]

 As humans we all have different likes and dislikes. We all have different opinions of certain types of people - one person likes quiet people and feels more at ease among such people. Other folks enjoy extraverted people, and tend to gravitate toward such people. It's how God designed us - there is something for everybody.

Some people like Martin guitars, others prefer Gibson - they both play the same songs and sound great in a band right?

This is why some people feel at home in say, a Baptist church as opposed to Anglican, and vice versa. It may come down to the pastor - we all have a certain type of preaching which hits home for us personally. I don't think Jesus would condemn this - it's just the way he designed us.

Some people come to Jesus because they relate to His compassion and love, and that's enough for them to accept Jesus. Others begin their walk by coming to understand that evolution is a lie, and creation is far more "reasonable" and that's how they come to Jesus, everything else falls into place after that initial contact.

 At my church, which is Baptist (not Southern Baptist) we have other denominations come to our church once every month or two, then we go to another denomination once every couple of months. For the most part, a stranger would be very hard pressed to distinguish who belonged to which denomination, because we mingle with other Bible believing churches. The main thing is we all believe in Jesus. Jesus is God, His Bible is literally 100% true and infallible.

Where's the problem?


 Bronzesnake

[felix102]

Brother John,

I knew that this would be hard for some people to accept. I redirected this topic to what Zaddikimyah wrote "messiah's last petition for unity". There you will find more stuff.

But to answer your question directly...

First, I think you are exercising your reasoning to excuse these denominations and differences by going off of "As humans, we all have different likes and dislikes." It should not be based on these things.  It should not be music that brings certain people together and repels certain people away. It should not be some particular preaching style. The "church" that we know today is not so true anymore. I know the question in many of your heads is "Well, then what can be done? Felix, you keep saying these things but this is just the way things are!"

This is what the common church in this nation is...

You go to a building on Sunday. You have many burdens weighing down in your heart. But you go to church with your nice suit on. You put a smile on your face as you greet the brothers. You put on your be righteous, holy protocol. This is one big facade.

Many people go to church one day in the week. when they go in they activate their spiritual, righteous, holy protocol...after they get out they just go back to themselves.

If it is a small church, you go in and talk to your fellow brothers and sisters making sure you dont use any bad words, gossip, and you maintain a happy countenance. fake

If it is a big church, you go in and look for familiar faces again doing the same things...looking kind, nice and happy. fake

The outside of the cup is clean but what about the inside?

Then after this, there is worship. People are concerned about sounding good or hoping they play something THEY enjoy. Their hearts not praising the Lord Almighty. Not worship at all...

Then people take their seats and listen to the sermon. In which some people try to sit through it pretending to be interested; some try to find intellectual satisfication or a good word; and some may take in life quietly as they watch and listen.

Then they go home...until next week. The ones that gained anything were the ones who took in life. However, it was something personal not shared with the members (maybe just family). This revelation of life may stay with them for a little bit..but by the end of the week it is gone and they are back to their old miserable selves. Even if they write down whatever they got they can never maintain this revelation thoughtout the week.

What did Jesus mean in that prayer, "Give us today our daily bread"? Are we only eating once a week?


Children are dragged to church. Looking forward not to another day of learning of Christ...but games, fun, and snacks.

Teenagers look for their cliques. Staying in their closed circles, rejecting strangers, unbelievers, or people that will ruin the image of their clique. Trying to be cool or maintain some image.

Adults look for some good old socializing where they can brag about something.

In the end, church is just some activity. Where very few if any are worshiping in Spirit and in truthfulness. Are people gathering together in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ? Are people pursuing righteousness, faith, love and peace together with those who call on the name of the Lord out of a pure heart? The problem with the 'church' is that this is never done.

1 Corinthians 14:26
What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

Is your church being strengthened?

[Bronzesnake]

Whew! My brother you seem depressed.

 That is not the experience of the great majority of God loving church goers my friend. We all have Jesus, that is the whole point. It doesn't matter what church, as long as it is a Bible believing, Christian Church.

I'll pray to Jesus that you gain an overpowering joy in your heart!  

Bronzesnake

[felix102]

So what is to be done?

Here is the first thing you should do.

PRAY

O Father,
I want to worship you in spirit and in truth. I know nothing about you but I want to experience you right now as reality. I purify my heart. Reveal yourself to me!


Now this is something I strongly urge you to do!!!!

Schedule a home meeting. Call some brothers and invite them over to your home one night. Prepare a dinner. Whatever you can provide for. At least two brothers plus your family. Or have some potluck and invite more people over.

Before eating, have everyone call on the name of the Lord. Proclaim together in unison "Jesus Christ is Lord!" Do that three times together. Saying "Lord Jesus!" with your mouth. The second time saying "Lord Jesus!" with your mouth and heart. The third time saying "Lord Jesus!" with your mouth, heart and spirit. As you are reading this do this right now.  

Then pray. Pray for anything. Such as "Lord Jesus, we turn away from everything in this world right now. We consecrate this time only to you. May we not leave this place the same; we want to be changed! We want to gain more of you!" But don't just have one person pray one prayer. Let there be many more prayers. Dont worry, there wont be disorder. Encourage brothers moved by their hearts to pray.

This is the most important part. After eating open hymnals, open the bible, and share things with each other. Be completely open to each other. The best way to start is probably with the bible. Just read some scripture together and have everyone share what they got from it. Share some revelation that God gave you during the week. Share your burdens. Ask questions. Sing hymns and songs. Get out musical instruments. Another good way to start is just to print out some bible study topics from this forum and go over that.

When leaving have another group prayer.

Coordinate a home meeting like this for each weekday. Each day being a different brothers' or sisters'. Whoever can and whoever is willing.  

Acts 2:46
And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart

Lord Jesus,
Strengthen your church right now! May nothing stand in the way. Unite us together. Make us function healthly.


Saints, this will make a big difference. If you are a believer and you haven't been baptized, you should do it soon.

[felix102]

Some references for some of the things said

Concerning fake worshippers...

1 Corinthians 1:21
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him...

Matt 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never KNEW YOU: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mark 7:6-7
Jesus said, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in VAIN; their teachings are but rules TAUGHT by men.'

Sadly, this Word speaks against many churches across this nation. God wants worshippers that worship Him in spirit and in Truth! It is these that God seeks.

John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks

John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.

How do you worship in spirit? The first thing you can do is call on the name of the Lord. By this you can exercise your spirit by proclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit

God is rich to all who call upon him.

Romans 10:12
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Thus...
Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 2:21
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Not just eternal salvation but all things of this world. From all things of this world. These are the riches of Christ.


When you get together you should call on the name of the Lord.

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them

2 Timothy 2:22
Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Matthew 5:8
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

And when we see God we are changed.


So we understand that God does not want worshippers like those pharisees that talk about God but know nothing about Him. So let us now seek to worship God in spirit and in truth. There is only one way to worship God!

If you can get into those home meetings it will make a great difference

[2nd Timothy]

Is any denomination 100% right?   No doubt the world sees these differences and lumps em all into a bag a religious confusion, but those denominations that teach the saving power of Christ by Grace through faith are part of the body of Christ arent they?    I think its the ones that alter this very truth to be in serious error.   Not that all of them don't have errors in one form or another, but without the truth of salvation the rest is moot anyways.

Interesting topic though.

Grace and Peace!

[JudgeNot]

Greetings Felix,

I grew up in a town like yours. A church on every corner.

Cool!

Ask yourself these questions honestly...

Okay...

Why are there so many churches in one local area?

Because we are all different – we have different spiritual gifts and different spiritual needs.  We tend towards the worship where we are most comfortable as individuals.

You are a member of one church...would it be okay to move from church to church every week however?

Absolutely.  I've been known to attend early services at my church and attend 11 oclock services at another…

Would the congregation at your church object?

Absolutely not - that wouldn't be very 'Christian' of them.

Would you object to a member of your church doing that?

Absolutely not - that wouldn't be very 'Christian' of me.

What you speak of Judgenot is a universal aspect of the one Body of Christ. It is apparent that all believers around the world are of one body and it is obviously not a problem for believers in Christ to come together under one roof (such as a crusade). But this is not what I am talking about. It is the local aspect. The local aspect is where things actually take place. This is practicality.

Sorry, partner – that statement is in direct conflict with its self.  Yes I’m looking at the universal aspect.  However you imply ‘universal’ does not encompass ‘local’.  That would mean your definition of ‘universal’ must be one other than found in “Webster’s”.
We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.  But that’s okay!  That’s what different denominations do.  
God will straighten our minor squabbles out when the time comes, but you know what?  Not a single Christian will say “I told you so!” because NONE of us are 100% correct in our interpretations.

The universal church you speak of WILL happen, Felix.  I can guarantee it!!!  (And like you, I look forward to the day...)  However it won't happen until the Lord is physically here to lead His church.  The univeral church that proceeds the one Jesus will lead is one that I don't want to be a part of - it will be lead by Anti-Christ.

Praise God and pass the ammunition!
JN

[felix102]

Greetings Felix,

I grew up in a town like yours. A church on every corner.

Cool!

Ask yourself these questions honestly...

Okay...

Why are there so many churches in one local area?

Because we are all different – we have different spiritual gifts and different spiritual needs.  We tend towards the worship where we are most comfortable as individuals.

You are a member of one church...would it be okay to move from church to church every week however?

Absolutely.  I've been known to attend early services at my church and attend 11 oclock services at another…

Would the congregation at your church object?

Absolutely not - that wouldn't be very 'Christian' of them.

Would you object to a member of your church doing that?

Absolutely not - that wouldn't be very 'Christian' of me.

What you speak of Judgenot is a universal aspect of the one Body of Christ. It is apparent that all believers around the world are of one body and it is obviously not a problem for believers in Christ to come together under one roof (such as a crusade). But this is not what I am talking about. It is the local aspect. The local aspect is where things actually take place. This is practicality.

Sorry, partner – that statement is in direct conflict with its self.  Yes I’m looking at the universal aspect.  However you imply ‘universal’ does not encompass ‘local’.  That would mean your definition of ‘universal’ must be one other than found in “Webster’s”.
We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.  But that’s okay!  That’s what different denominations do.  
God will straighten our minor squabbles out when the time comes, but you know what?  Not a single Christian will say “I told you so!” because NONE of us are 100% correct in our interpretations.

The universal church you speak of WILL happen, Felix.  I can guarantee it!!!  (And like you, I look forward to the day...)  However it won't happen until the Lord is physically here to lead His church.  The univeral church that proceeds the one Jesus will lead is one that I don't want to be a part of - it will be lead by Anti-Christ.

Praise God and pass the ammunition!
JN

Judgenot, there is both a universal aspect and local aspect of the Church. That was just a way of describing things. This is evident in scriptures. In Revelations, 7 messages are given to the church. 1 message to each church in some locality: Sarids, Laodicea, Philadelphia... This is the local aspect. You say I speak of a universal church. That universal Church would be all believers from around the world. But this is not what I speak of...I speak of the local aspect...The church you locally go to; the people belonging to Christ -3 or more- that you gather with.

To answer my own questions...


-Why are there so many churches in one LOCAL area?

Local referes to a small geographic location. Such would be your town judgenot (and my hometown).

Because man cannot reconcile with each other due to their own reasonings and thinkings. Judgenot, your answer to this is because we are all different. Brothers and Sisters, this is your logic, but it is wrong.  

Is it differences that cause us to have many different churches? Let's look at the body. It is made of DIFFERENT parts! If each part was a leg it may be very mobile but do you think that body could find its way around without eyes? If each part was an eye it could see many things but can that body ever get anywhere? We were made different for a purpose!!! To function together!! We need to function together heathly.

For the other three questions...lets take a look at that

Judgenot, you said, "Absolutely not - that wouldn't be very 'Christian' of them. Look at what you said very very carefully. You said 'Christian' of them (me). This implies that there is something wrong with that in the first place. Like it is not 'Christian' of me to get mad at my brother when he sins against me. You see...why would going to other churches be hurtful to the congregation in the first place? Brothers and Sisters, I know you know what I am talking about.

We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.  But that’s okay!  That’s what different denominations do.  
God will straighten our minor squabbles out when the time comes, but you know what?  Not a single Christian will say “I told you so!” because NONE of us are 100% correct in our interpretations.

Brother, there is a big problem with this statement. I am not clear what we are "agreeing to disagreeing on." Is it about the local church walking in disunity? That's ok. I know that some of you believe that the local church is walking in one accord. This is a hard thing to do because we have fell into man's standard but through prayer it can be done.

However what is most important from this in which we cannot disagree is the admonition that the church needs strengthening.

1 Corinthians 14:26
What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

This can be easily done in the HOME MEETINGS I talked about earlier here in 'What can be done'. It is from house to house.

Acts 8:3
But Saul began to destroy THE CHURCH, going from HOUSE TO HOUSE, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.

Lord Jesus, Cause us to meet together under your name. Lord, bring us together. Provide the means and the circumstance for this to be done. May we not become lazy and forsake this. Operate in us to do this!

[felix102]

Whew! My brother you seem depressed.

 That is not the experience of the great majority of God loving church goers my friend. We all have Jesus, that is the whole point. It doesn't matter what church, as long as it is a Bible believing, Christian Church.

I'll pray to Jesus that you gain an overpowering joy in your heart!  

Bronzesnake

Hey bro,

Lol, I'm not depressed at all. Hmm..maybe I should be, but God has lead me to a church -local body of believers- that worship in spirit and in truth. So im doing fine...but I am convinced that local churches in this nation and even all over the world are suffering! This we must be concerned about just as Christ would be.

This is expected but let it not be! For with Israel, many fell from God when they made that golden calf. Yet there were always a select few that were true to God and pure in heart...like Noah. It is true that there are many but only a few are chosen. But if we have any chance of crushing Satan we all need to be walking in one accord. This this starts with your local churches.



Baptism
As an individual, another thing that must be done is baptism. If you have not been baptized you need to do it so you may be seperated from the world and be free to pursue God. Be baptized into the body, Father, Son and Holy Ghost. You need to be inducted into the body of Christ! In the bible the latest anyone was baptized after believing was no more than 3 days! Satan will try at all means to stop you but do this; be baptized. It is not some membership into a particular church; you need to be saved from the world. Some things Satan may throw at you will be family members and friends who object. And even yourself! You may be a shy person or you dont want people to see you wet. Deny these things and follow through with it.

[felix102]

Is any denomination 100% right?   No doubt the world sees these differences and lumps em all into a bag a religious confusion, but those denominations that teach the saving power of Christ by Grace through faith are part of the body of Christ arent they?    I think its the ones that alter this very truth to be in serious error.   Not that all of them don't have errors in one form or another, but without the truth of salvation the rest is moot anyways.

Interesting topic though.

Grace and Peace!

Is any denomination 100% right?  

Your answer: no.

My answer: No...Of course not, because they are from the reasonings of man, not God.

but those denominations that teach the saving power of Christ by Grace through faith are part of the body of Christ arent they?

Your answer: yes

My answer: Yes...Of course, so is that body functioning in one accord? If it is not then surely it needs to be! As our body parts must all work together to walk so must the local churches. Yet if not 10 but 1000 men are walking in one accord that is even mightier. We need to all be walking in ONE ACCORD NOT IN DISCORD. This is the meat of the issue. To be united as one, not scattered. We would be so much more powerful!


Dont forget worshipping God in spirit and in truth.

[2nd Timothy]

so is that body functioning in one accord? If it is not then surely it needs to be! As our body parts must all work together to walk so must the local churches.

Hmmm.  The body consists of many different parts, all having different functions however.   Yes the toes the fingers the feet the arms the eyes etc.   If each of these are being used for the better good of the body of Christ, then they would be functioning in one accord.   The arm cannot do the job of the feet carrying the body from place to place, just as the foot cannot do the job of the arm which reaches out letting the hand do its job.   Sounds kind of silly I guess, but it does add to the mental image me thinks.  

I am reminded of ....

Mar 9:38  And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
Mar 9:39  But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
Mar 9:40  For he that is not against us is on our part.
Mar 9:41  For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.


Was this individual operating in one accord with Jesus group?  According to Jesus he was.   Now I realize the body was still being built at this point, but I think it still applies here.   Any denomination not against Christ in on His part.   At least thats how I see it.

Grace and Peace!