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2nd Timothy
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« on: November 19, 2004, 12:56:49 PM »


Israel and current events.


I have been watching news events for sometime now as it relates to end time events.   All recent world events, and especially things going on in the Middle East appear to be building to a climax.   Me and Tom (BEP) have been talking about this a little bit, and I wanted to start a series of posts concerning some of what the Bible has to say about what’s going on in our time, and why the world is obsessed with peace in the nation of Israel.    So primarily I will be dealing with Israel.   Later on we might move to Daniel and Revelation.


Before I get into this, I want to say that I realize this is a difficult subject for some on the board.   There are a few who have strong views concerning Israel, end times, and eschatology in general.   I encourage a healthy discussion, but would prefer if we can avoid debate.   My purpose for posting this is to discuss current events in relation to prophecy, and allow Gods word to demonstrate it's accuracy as the Lord Himself has declared.    The study is rather lengthy so I will have to break it up into parts….bear with me.


Bible Prophecy

Most people in our day and age view Bible prophecy as some sort or fortune telling machine of gloom and doom for mans future and how the world will end.      This is not what Bible prophecy is all about.    Prophecy is the unfolding of Gods plan for mankind laid out in His word.   Unlike man, God is looking at the whole picture, and sees from beginning to end what is going to take place.   This is an important aspect of Gods word, because it declares the truth and accuracy of scripture by foretelling mankind what He is going to do, and then bringing it to pass.    Only the One True God of heaven can do this.   Look at what God himself says about this.

 Isa 14:24  The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:


Isa 48:3  I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.


Here, God swears on His Holy Name that if He says it, He will do it, and it WILL happen!  He is going to do it!!!  What a proclamation from the Lord.    So prophecy is very important from Gods perspective.  He uses it over and over in scripture to show mankind that He alone is God, by declaring things that He will do ahead of time, then bringing them to pass just as He has said.    His Glory, Power, and Wonder are declared in these things.



ISRAEL

To start off, the main focus of my own study was to look into the restoration of Israel as a nation.   So I’m not going to spend much time on Gods judgment of Israel, but rather His promise to return them to the land.    

There are numerous prophecies in the Bible.   The most prophecied events in scripture concern the first and second coming of Messiah.   All the prophecies concerning Jesus coming into the world as our saviour were 100% fulfilled by Christ in the New Testiment.   We still await fulfillment of the second coming of Christ, which I believe is very close to happening now.

The second most prophesied event in scripture concerns the restoration of the nation of Israel.   Now for those of you already squirming in your chairs and frowning at the screen, before you ignore the rest and skip down to the “Reply Button” and set me straight, hear me out.    Gods word is pretty explicit about this as you will see.    To understand what is going on with Israel, we need to back up to where it all originates from.  


In Genesis, God told Abram that He would make a great nation out of him and his children.  


Gen 12:1  Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
Gen 12:2  And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Gen 12:3  And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.


God tells Abram that He is going to bless and make a great nation out of him, and bless all the families of the earth through this nation.   The greatest blessing mankind ever received came from the nation of Israel.   That came to pass by God sending His Son, Jesus Christ through the Nation of Israel and dying for all peoples of the earth.   God truly has blessed the world through Israel, the decendants of Abram.  Gods salvation came through them.

To prove this to Abram, God entered into a covenant to assure Abram that He would do what He had promised.   This covenant however is not like the covenant God made with Moses.  In the covenant with Moses, both parties entered into it, and conditions or terms of being faithful were required to maintain it.    The covenant with Abram was an unconditional covenant, and one that God alone was bound by as scripture will show.

Gen 15:7  And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
Gen 15:8  And he (Abram) said, Lord GOD, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?
Gen 15:9  And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
Gen 15:10  And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.


In the Old Testament, when two parties entered into a binding agreement, a blood ceremony like this was preformed.   Certain clean animals were parted or halfed, and both parties would hold hands and walk between the parted animals and the covenant was complete and binding for both parties.   You can imagine Abrams excitement as he carfully prepared the animals and waited for God to show up.   Well, guess what?   A deep sleep came over Abram before God arrived.

Gen 15:12  And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.


While Abram slept…note verse 17 very carefully!

Gen 15:17  And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
Gen 15:18  In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:



Did you see it?   God Himself, represented by the smoking furnace and burning lamp passed through the pieces while Abram slept.   God bound Himself to the promise He had made to Abram!   All Abram had to do was receive the benefit of it.    The parallel between this blood covenant and the blood covenant God made through Christ on the cross is not by chance.   Christ alone fulfilled Gods righteousness and justice when He alone died on the cross for man.   All man has to do is receive the benefit of that promise by faith.   Just like Abram!   Neat huh?

OK so getting back to the promise to Abram.   The focus of this promise is Abraham and his decendants Isaac, Jacob = Israel, and it is an everlasting covenant that God himself is bound to.

Psa 105:6  O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.
Psa 105:7  He is the LORD our God: his judgments are in all the earth.
Psa 105:8  He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
Psa 105:9  Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
Psa 105:10  And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:
Psa 105:11  Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance:



A couple of points here.  
a.  Abraham, and decendants – children of Jacob – nation of Israel - called chosen.
b.  His covenant is everlasting with Israel, and remembered.
c.  Specifically names the land as inheritance.

continued...
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« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2004, 12:58:02 PM »

Now as we know, Israel did not remain in the land after they came into it.   God later passed judgment on Israel because of sin and scattered them through out the world.    This was also prophecied in Eze chapter 6.

This largely happened in 70 AD when Rome destroyed Jerusalem and the temple.   Since then, the land has changed hands many many times through out history.    But God was not finished with the nation of Israel.   His blood covenant could not be broken Or His good name was at risk.   After 20 centuries of being dispersed through out the world, against all probability, Israel once again became a Nation as of 1948.   For anyone doubting this event was prophesied in scripture just look at the following prophetic passages concerning the restoration of Israel.  (Note for those in contention: we are still waiting for the spiritual restoration portions of these which will take place eventually, most likely during the tribulation period, as well as the entire portion of the land of Canaan to be held.)

 
Jer 30:2  Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.
Jer 30:3  For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.


Eze 20:41  I will accept you with your sweet savour, when I bring you out from the people, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; and I will be sanctified in you before the heathen.
Eze 20:42  And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers.


(Ezekiel 34:26-27,30 NIV)
 '"I will bless them and the places surrounding my hill. I will send down showers in season; there will be showers of blessing. The trees of the field will yield their fruit and the ground will yield its crops; the people will be secure in their land. They will know that I am the LORD, when I break the bars of their yoke and rescue them from the hands of those who enslaved them....Then they will know that I, the LORD their God, am with them and that they, the house of Israel, are my people," declares the Sovereign LORD.'


Eze 34:13  And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.



Eze 36:24  For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Eze 36:25  Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Eze 36:28  And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

(from verse 36 we see where Israel as a nation will eventually be born again)


Eze 39:27  When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28  Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.


Some may be asking at this point…Why is all this so important?  Again, because Gods name is at stake.   Remember, He passed through the halfed pieces binding Himself to His own promise.   His everlasting blood promise to Abram must be kept.   God cannot lie or break a promise.   Listen to what God says about why He will restore them to the land…



Eze 36:22  Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
Eze 36:23  And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.




God says it's for His names sake!!!     Most of Ezekiel 36 and 37 deals with this in great detail.   I would encourage and careful read of these chapters for anyone having doubts about this.   Also of interest in history, is how the Jewish people were looked down on.   Countries of the world know the Jews were called Gods chosen people, yet they were dispised among those foreign lands and profaned, just as God points out in verse 23.   Gods name was being tarnished.   The Lord also declares that the heathen as well as the Jews are going to know that He is the Lord of Host.   We are still waiting for this, but that time is rapidly approaching.


It's important to note at this point, that out of roughly 13,000,000 Jews in the world today, only 5,000,000 of them currently reside in Israel.   Many are still in other nations.    Also unknown by a lot of people; Jews currently in Israel for the most part are atheist.   There are a small number that hold to Jewish faith, such as the Orthodox group, but by and large most Jews are not too concerned with faith.   This brings me to my next point.   Out of all the prophetic verses we just read, God declares again and again that after they return to the land they will KNOW HE IS THEIR GOD.   If the first part of these passages have been fulfilled, then it seems to me we must be getting close the second part of these prophetic verses, when Israel as a nation is going to know their God and be spiritually restored.   Seeing Israel in the land again is the most amazing prophtic thing to happen since the crucifixion of Christ, and should raise eyebrows of those looking for the soon return of the Lord to this earth to reign over it, in that Land as KING!  

continued...
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« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2004, 12:59:41 PM »

CURRENT  WORLD EVENTS


The importance of the nation of Israel appearing in 1948 cannot be overstated in regards to the end time.   Israel being restored to the promise land is a marker for just how close we are to the end of the age and the return of Christ.


Mat 24:32  Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


I believe these verses are speaking specifically about Israel becoming a nation again.   That generation is alive today, and getting old I might add.

In current news, we see a lot of talk about the creation of a Palestinian state.   Land for Peace is usually the term used.   The world views a two state solution as key to world peace and the fight against terrorism.   The problem is, the land belongs to God who promised it to Abraham’s decendants.   Not the Palestinians.   Look at what God says about the land in Leviticus.

Lev 25:23  The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is mine; for ye are strangers and sojourners with me.

Once again, the nation of Israel fails to heed Gods word and acknowledge Him as their Lord, and is attempting with the worlds help to trade Gods land for peace!  (which we know will never happen with out Christ).   If Israel gave up everything, but one square foot of land in Israel, that would not be enough for the Palestinians.   They have one objective and that is to completely destroy Israel.  I believe this is an effort by Satan himself to prevent God from fulfilling His promise (as if that could be done).   Israel WILL eventually take possesion of ALL the land of Canaan.  But right now the world is not concerned with Gods promises or His good name.

The world in it's own attempt to bring about peace apart from God, is willing to trade God’s land to Israel’s sworn enemy.   How that for irony.   The world is on a collision course with God which will be the worst times ever known to man.   Also prophecied in scripture.

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


Without getting directly into the popular end time prophecy of Daniel and Revelation, we can start to see just by looking at the nation of Israel just how close we are to the end.    Satan still thinks he can win, and theres no question that he wishes to prevent God from keeping His word to restore the land of Israel to it's rightful owners  -  The decendants of Abraham, Gods chosen people.   The entire tribulation period is all about Satan deceiving Israel into false peace, and then attempting to destroy them with the wars that ensue.   If you have any doubt that we are rapidly approaching that time, just sit down and watch CNN, FOX, or MSNBC for about 30 mins.   Israel and mid-east peace dominates the news these days.   The worlds lust for “peace and security” apart from God, will instead bring His wrath!

1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.


The time is growing short!   Prophecy which was written thousands of years ago are coming to light in our
time.    We can see this coming about just from looking at Israel in prophecy.   There is quite a bit more
going on in the world that relates to other things in scripture.    I will try to touch on these shortly in other
posts.


Promise of Salvation

If you have been reading this, and do not know the Lord as your personal saviour, God has a promise just for you.   His Son paid your sin debt in full.   He fulfilled Gods promise of salvation for all men…for YOU!   But you must accept the benefit of His Grace and receive this promise.  

Rom 3:23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

None of us can measure up to Gods standard.    But He made a provision for us to be justified in
His sight.    

Rom 3:24  Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25  Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26  To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


Christ shed his own blood just for you friend.  You can be made just in the eyes of the Lord by faith in what Christ did for you on the Cross.  His covenant is free for all who receive it.   Paul tells us…


Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


It's that simple.  Confess the Lord with your mouth and believe that Christ died and rose from the dead, and you will be saved!   This is Gods promise to you.   The time is growing shorter by the day.   Won’t you ask him into your heart today?

Grace and Peace!
« Last Edit: November 19, 2004, 01:18:19 PM by 2nd Timothy » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2004, 05:02:31 AM »

2nd Timothy:
You have gone to great leangths to show that you do not understand that we are not living in the "end times" of Biblical prophesy.

We may very well be living in the "last days" of this dispensation of grace, "which was kept secret since the world began."

There are, no doubt, events happening today that are leading up to the fulfillment of the Biblical prophesies.

When one studies Acts 3:15-20, one can see that the "last days" (Tribulation) had already started at Pentecost. Those "last days" are the 70th week of Daniels prophesy in chapter 9. Joel speaks of them in 2:28-32. In fact, Peter, in Acts 2, quotes Joel almost word for word.

Peter knew exactly where he was in the timetable of prophesy because he was speaking "as the Spirit gave them utterance" (vs 4), and Jesus, before returning to heaven, had opened the understanding of the OT Scirptures to His disciples (Luke 24:45).

The Tribulation that started in Acts 2 was interrupted when God set the nation of Israel aside after the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7, and ushered in this unprophesied "dispensation of grace"; with the raising up of Saul/Paul (Acts 9). The Tribulation will again resume after ths "dispensation of grace" has been raptured. That will be when "the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Rms11:25).

In order to fully understand exactly were we are in God's timetable today, we must understand "the Mystery" that was revealed to the Apostle Paul, Not the prophetic Scriptures of the OT.

In his book "Things That Differ" Pastor Stam list 14 basic things between PROPHECY (P) AND THE MYSTERY (M).

1. (P) Concerns a kingdom; a political organization (Dan. 2:44, Matt. 6:10).

(M) Concerns a body; a living organism (I Cor. 12:12,27, Eph. 4:12-16).

2. (P) The kingdom to be established on earth (Jer. 23:5, Matt. 6:10).

(M) The body given a position in heaven (Eph. 1:3, 2:5-6, Col 3:1-3).

3. (P) Christ to be its King (Jer. 23:5, Isa.9:6,7).

(M) Christ its living Head (Eph. 1:19-23,Col. 1:18).

4. (P) The kingdom prophesied "since the world began" (Luke 1:68-70, Acts3:21).

(M) The body chosen in Christ before the world began, but "kept secret sincethe world began" (Rom. 16:25, Eph.1:4-11, 3:5-9).

5. (P) Israel to be given supremacy over the nations (Isa. 60:10-12, 61:6).

(M) Jew and Gentile placed on the same level before God (Rom. 10:12, 11:32,Eph. 2:16,17).

6. (P) The Gentiles to be blessed through Israel’s instrumentality (Gen.22:17,18, Zech. 8:13).

(M) The Gentiles blessed through Israel’s obstinacy (Acts 13:44-46,Rom. 11:28-32).

7. (P) The Gentiles to be blessed through Israel’s rise (Isa. 60:1-3, Zech. 8:22,23).

(M) The Gentiles blessed throughIsrael’s fall (Acts 28:27,28, Rom.11:11, 12, 15).

8. (P) Prophecy mainly concerns nations as such (Isa. 2:4, Ezek. 37:21, 22).

(M) The mystery concerns individuals (Rom. 10:12, 13, II Cor. 5:14-17).

9. (P) Prophecy concerns blessings, both material and spiritual, on earth (Isa.2:3, 4, 11:1-9, etc.).

(M)The mystery concerns "all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies" (Eph.1:3, Col. 3:1-3).

10. (P) Prophecy concerns Christ’s coming to the earth (Isa. 59:20, Zech. 14:4).

(M)The mystery explains Christ’s present absence from the earth (Eph. 1:20-23, Col. 3:1-3).

11. (P) In prophecy salvation by grace through faith alone is not contemplated.

(M) Salvation by faith alone lies at the very heart of the mystery (Rom. 3:21-26, 4:5, Eph.2:8,9).

12, (P)The proclamation of the prophetic program committed particularly to the twelve (Matt. 10:5-7, Acts 1:6-8, 3:19-26).

(M) The proclamation of the mystery committed particularly to Paul (Eph.3:1-3, 8-9, Col. 1:24-27).

13 (P) The prophetic program revealed through many of God’s servants (Luke 1:70, II Pet. 1:21).

(M) The mystery revealed through one man; Paul (Gal. 1:1, 11, 12, 2:2, 7, 9,Eph. 3:2,3).

14. (P) Old testament writers frequently did not understand the prophecies made known through them (Dan. 12:8-10, 1 Peter 1:10-12).

(M) Paul both understood and longed that others might understand the mystery revealed through him. (Eph.1:15-23, 3:14-21, Col. 1:9 -10, 2:1-3).

I highly recommend that you read this book. It can be read on line and is shown at the end of Brother Love's postings.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Much and Love The Lord!
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« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2004, 08:41:44 AM »

I'm not sure you understood completely what I was saying, but thats OK.

If you do believe that the 70th week started in Acts 3 you will probably want to start another thread and discuss that there.  I have no intention of debating all the various end-time doctrines here, but rather allowing scripture to demonstrate we are fast approaching the coming of the Lord and His judgment on a Christ rejecting world.   Israel becoming a nation again, is but one indication it is near.

Thanks for your kind words however.

Maranatha!
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« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2004, 09:15:47 AM »

2nd Timothy posted:
Quote
I'm not sure you understood completely what I was saying, but thats OK.

BigD responds:
It appeared to me that you were saying that we are nearing the "end time" of Bible Prophesy, and that by Israel becoming a nation in 1948 was an indication of that. Also you use of -

"Mat 24:32  Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

I believe these verses are speaking specifically about Israel becoming a nation again.  That generation is alive today, and getting old I might add." -

indicates to me that is exactly what you are saying.

If I have mis-read what you said, then please correct me.

2nd Timothy continues:
Quote
If you do believe that the 70th week started in Acts 3 you will probably want to start another thread and discuss that there.  I have no intention of debating all the various end-time doctrines here, but rather allowing scripture to demonstrate we are fast approaching the coming of the Lord and His judgment on a Christ rejecting world.   Israel becoming a nation again, is but one indication it is near.

BigD responds:
My intention was not to start a debate, but to show you that we are not in the "end time" of Bible prophesy, and that Israel of today is not the God restored Israel of Bible prophesy.

The Israel of today was brought into existance by the workings of man through the UN.  When God restores Israel it will include all the land mentioned in Genesis 15:18.

Also, I tried to point out to you that the "last days" that Peter spoke of in Acts 2 was the beginning of the Tribulation. If you believe that I am in error on that account; then I would appreciate it if you would correct me.

If you would like to make this a debate and start a new thread, then I would be more then willing to discuss this matter there.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!



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« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2004, 09:51:52 AM »

Moving right along  Grin


To continue this study, I wanted to look into the history of the Esau and Jacob, and how that translates to current world times.   I have been doing quite a bit of reading in Ezekiel, and chapter 35 says some things that raise my eyebrows a bit.

In the OT, Isaac and Rebekah had two sons - twins!   Esau and Jacob.

Gen 25:22  And the sons struggled together within her. And she said, If this is right, why am I this way? And she went to ask Jehovah.
Gen 25:23  And Jehovah said to her, Two nations are in your womb; even two peoples shall break from your body. And one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
Gen 25:24  And her days were fulfilled to bear. And behold! Twins were in her womb.
Gen 25:25  And the first came out, all of him red like a hairy robe; and they called his name Esau.
Gen 25:26  And afterward his brother came out, and his hand was holding to the heel of Esau; and his name was called Jacob. And Isaac was a son of sixty years when she bore them.


Jacob went on to have twelve sons, which became the 12 tribes of Israel.  Esau's came to settle in Mount Seir

Gen 36:8  And Esau dwelt on Mount Seir. Esau is Edom.

and his people became known as the Edomites.

Looking at a few maps we can see where the 12 tribes wound up and where Edom is.



Edom is in the lower portion of this map.   Now today, Jordon is largely the remnant of the Edomites and mostly Islamic.  

Current map.




So now what?

We know from scripture that a Jewish temple will be rebuilt at some point on the temple mount, and the Antichrist himself will sit in this temple and declare himself to be God.

2Th 2:4  the one opposing and exalting himself over everything being called God, or object of worship, so as for him "to sit in the temple of God" as God, setting forth himself, that he is God. (also see Dan. 11:36; Eze. 28:2 )

This is all future and has not happened yet.

We also know that the 3rd most holy Isamic place resides in that very spot.  The Dome Of the Rock.   Something has to happen here in order for the Jews to be able to re-build this temple.    Many have speculated that the peace deal the Antichrist will confirm with the Israel will somehow involve a re-building of the temple.   Others think an earthquake or some un-foreseen event will knock down the Dome of the Rock and Israel will seize the mountain.   I don't know how it will happen, but we know that it will happen.  

 I did come across some interesting scripture which I am certainly open for discussion on concerning a possible occurance.   It sounds possible that this may be speaking specifically about the current setting.

Eze 35:1  Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 35:2  Son of man, set thy face against mount Seir, and prophesy against it,

Remember, this is where Esau came to settle earlier....
 
Eze 35:3  And say unto it, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O mount Seir, I am against thee, and I will stretch out mine hand against thee, and I will make thee most desolate.
Eze 35:4  I will lay thy cities waste, and thou shalt be desolate, and thou shalt know that I am the LORD.

Once again, Edom is largely Jordon in our time.   Looking at it from a spiritual perspective, Jordon is an Islamic nation, including the palestinians.   These people sit in Jordon and the palestinians the west bank.   We also know that they are responsible for many terrorist acts against the Jews.   Read the next few verses...

Eze 35:5  Because thou hast had a perpetual hatred, and hast shed the blood of the children of Israel by the force of the sword in the time of their calamity, in the time that their iniquity had an end:

(the part about calamity and time that their iniquity had an end....I am unable to explain....perhaps when the Jews were scattered and what happend to them by Hitler?)

Eze 35:6  Therefore, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, I will prepare thee unto blood, and blood shall pursue thee: sith thou hast not hated blood, even blood shall pursue thee.

Sounding very much like terrorists and events today.

Eze 35:7  Thus will I make mount Seir most desolate, and cut off from it him that passeth out and him that returneth.


Interesting language is it not?   So what am I getting at here.   Well, again from a spiritual perspective, the Dome of the Rock is in the hands of these Islamic people (Edomites).  God is going to cut off him that passeth out and him that returneth.   Hmmmm.

There is a verse in Obadiah which is extremely interesting in this regard...

Oba 1:21  And saviours shall come up on mount Zion (the temple mount) to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S.


I have heard it said, that some messianic Jews believe this phrase in Obadiah could be interpreted "to Judge the Dome of the Rock".    

All I can say to that is WOW!   Is it possible we are about to see the Jewish temple guards rush up onto the mountain and seize the Dome of the Rock in order to re-build their temple?   I'm not sure but these passages do make me wonder about this...a lot!

Anyone have any thoughts about this?

Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2004, 09:56:59 AM »

Quote
If you would like to make this a debate and start a new thread, then I would be more then willing to discuss this matter there.

I have already stated that I am not going to debate it.  By all means begin your own thread and have at it, if thats your desire.    Smiley    

Grace and Peace!

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« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2004, 12:04:52 AM »

2T thank you for this post and taking the time to study all of this. I have read some and have saved it to read later.
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« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2004, 02:28:38 AM »

Dome of the Rock, walls falling down. I remember reading about this earlier this year.

23 February 2004
The Dome of the Rock is an, Islamic museum in the Western Wall area which had collapsed and about the large bulge in the southern wall of the Temple Mount and the large bulge and crack on the eastern wall of the Temple Mount. We also wrote about the prophetic promises of God that, in the endtimes, He would remove the foreign pagan mosques and the foreigners from His holy mountain, the Temple Mount, through an earthquake. Zechariah prophesied the following endtime Word of God.

Zechariah 14:3-7 "Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand on that day upon the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in its midst toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall be moved toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And you shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal; yes, you shall flee, like you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah; and the Lord my God shall come, and all the holy ones with you. And it shall come to pass on that day, that there shall not be bright light nor thick darkness; But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night; but it shall come to pass, that at evening time there shall be light."

This endtime event has already started. It began with the earthquake of 11 February, the collapse of walls, the bulges, and the crack. It is now focused on the roof of the Dome of the Rock which stands on the holy site of God. We also wrote that seismologists had stated that a major earthquake will occur in the near future in Israel, the center of which will be on the Temple Mount and Jerusalem. The result will be the collapse of all the buildings there. All of this leads to the fulfillment of God's endtime promises and plans for His holy mountain. It is a clear message from the God of Israel that the Third Temple is soon to be rebuilt. All these events will be brought about by God. He is determined to bring His prophetic endtime Word to pass, as He is carrying out His redemptional prophetic endtime events with His people. We are a blessed generation to live and experience the fulfillment of these endtime events. The eyes of everyone should be lifted to the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, the main focus of all the endtime events. Time is short.

The endtime vessel of God, The Temple Mount and Land of Israel,  which is dedicated to the rebuilding of the Temple in our lifetime, will continue its holy campaign even more intensively to bring its holy cause to pass in the life of our generation as God decided.

Go in peace with God.
Bob
_________________________________
Ha! I found it.
http://www.templemountfaithful.org/News/20040204.htm
Temple Mount Wall Collapses
   After centuries with no structural problems, suddenly walls in the southern area of the Temple Mount are collapsing. Israeli archaeologist Eilat Mazal, who heads a committee for preventing the destruction of antiquities on the Temple Mount, said that the collapsed wall looks terrible and might cause a series of collapses. View of the collapsed wall on the Temple Mount

It is not the first time that something critical has happened recently on the walls of the Temple Mount. On Tisha B’Av 2001 a huge bulge formed on the southern wall of the Temple Mount. The bulge measured 25 meters [82 feet] high and tens of meters wide running westward from the south-eastern corner (the Pinnacle of the Temple) to an area below the El Aqsa mosque, which is built on the southern wall of the Temple Mount. The ancient Herodian wall bulged as much as 90 centimeters [3 feet]. The archaeologists and engineers who checked the bulge said that there is a great danger that the wall will completely collapse and, together with it, the El Aqsa mosque which stands on it. This could happen when the Moslems are praying in the mosque. They also stated that even if the bulge is repaired it will not hold for long and the wall will collapse in any case. However, Jordanian engineers were finally brought in to repair the southern wall.

It was so special that the bulge happened immediately after the Temple Mount Faithful carried the cornerstone for the Third Temple to the area in front of the southern wall of the Temple Mount. There is no doubt that this was the Hand of G-d. He will no longer permit the foreign pagan Arab Islamic existence on the Temple Mount, their terrible desecration of His holy hill, and their efforts to destroy the holy remains of the First and Second Temples. They are trying in this way convert the holy hill of the G-d and people of Israel to an Islamic site and deny the existence of the Temples on the Temple Mount. For this reason they also changed the so-called Solomon’s Stables and the Hulda hall and entrance from the Second Temple complex into Islamic mosques.

We should mention that not long before the appearance of the bulge on the southern wall, a crack appeared in the eastern wall not far from the original, real Eastern Gate which is also called the Shushan Gate or Golden Gate. In their 2002 diggings from the inner side of the eastern wall, G-d surprised them by revealing the Shushan Gate. The Arabs who were digging there understood the significance of the appearance of this G-dly gate through which they knew so well that Mashiach ben David would enter. As a result they immediately covered it up again.

In recent years water suddenly appeared in the historical area of the Temple. Water again appeared in 2002 on one of the stones of the Western Wall. The Moslems on the Temple Mount who could not stop the water redirected it under the ground. Through this water the prophecy of Ezekiel 47 concerning the water which would come out from the Temple Mount and flow to the Dead Sea area as a sign of redemption in the end-times, started to become a reality:

"And he brought me back to the door of the house; and, behold, waters flowed from under the threshold of the house eastward; for the front of the house faced to the east, and water run out from beneath the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar. ... And by the stream, upon its bank, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for food, whose leaf shall not wither, nor shall its fruit fail; it shall bring forth fresh fruit every month, because the waters for them flow from the sanctuary; and their fruit shall be for food, and their leaves for healing." (Ezekiel 47:1,12)

Since the Arab Islamic foreign occupation of the land of Israel, Jerusalem, and the Temple Mount — after building the mosque and Dome of the Rock, it was a Jewish tradition that in the time of the redemption of Israel when the people of Israel again dwell in the land and the State of Israel is re-established, the G-d of Israel will cause a strong earthquake which will completely remove these foreign houses of pagan worship from the Temple Mount. The Temple Mount will be ready for the rebuilding for the building of the Third Temple. A few days ago, scientists stated that a very strong earthquake will occur in the coming future and the epicenter of the earthquake will be on the Temple Mount and the Old City. The prophet Zechariah prophesied about an earthquake which would take place in the end-times:

"And his feet shall stand on that day upon the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in its midst toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall be moved toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And you shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal; yes, you shall flee, like you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah; and the L-rd my G-d shall come, and all the holy ones with you. And it shall come to pass on that day, that there shall not be bright light nor thick darkness; But it shall be one day which shall be known to the L-rd, not day, nor night; but it shall come to pass, that at evening time there shall be light." (Zechariah 14:4-7)

Zechariah also prophesied about the water that would go out from Jerusalem as another sign of redemption and then G-d would be the One G-d of all the universe and all the nations who will accept Him and then strangers will no longer be on the Temple Mount:

"And it shall be on that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the eastern sea, and half of them toward the western sea; in summer and in winter shall it be. And the L-rd shall be king over all the earth; on that day the L-rd shall be one, and his name one. ... and on that day there shall not be Canaanite any more in the house of the L-rd of hosts." (Zechariah 14:8,9,21b)

The collapse of walls on the Temple Mount, and all the other signs that were mentioned above, are very clear signs that the foreign pagan presence on the Temple Mount is about to be removed. G-d has started to prepare His holy hill for Israel to purify it and to build the Temple. The Hand of G-d continues to appear again and again in Jerusalem and the Temple Mount, as well as over all the land of Israel, calling the Israeli Government to do what He expects of them to do: to purify the Temple Mount and immediately rebuild the house of G-d. This will open the Eastern Gate for the coming of Mashiach ben David.

Click the link above to finish reading.

Praise God for he is worthy.
Bob
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« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2004, 09:21:33 AM »

Good post DW.   Many have thought it will be an earthquake that brings it down, and it very well could be.  I am currious to see how it all happens.   My one question about that is, if an earthquake does bring it down, something in addition has to take place, as the Muslims will still view that site (even if a pile of rubble  Wink ) as theirs.   I could see the Israeli's taking advantage of such a thing and re-claiming the land by force.  That would certainly cause world view to sharpen against Israel.   Will be interesting to watch how God brings this about.

Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2004, 09:33:36 AM »

The_8th_Person,

Thanks for your words.   I enjoy looking into these things in scripture.   I certainly hope this will spur study in the word.  I too am still looking at much of this and praying about it.   Gods own word certainly has the final say so.   These posts are just to encourage study.

Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2004, 09:53:49 AM »

Good post DW.   Many have thought it will be an earthquake that brings it down, and it very well could be.  I am currious to see how it all happens.   My one question about that is, if an earthquake does bring it down, something in addition has to take place, as the Muslims will still view that site (even if a pile of rubble  Wink ) as theirs.   I could see the Israeli's taking advantage of such a thing and re-claiming the land by force.  That would certainly cause world view to sharpen against Israel.   Will be interesting to watch how God brings this about.

Grace and Peace!
Something in the back of my mind. Is saying that the anti-christ has a hand in the Jews rebuilding the temple. I don't know if I read it in the Bible, or a book. Hmmmmmmm, I think I need to research that.

In the arms of Jesus.
Bob
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« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2004, 12:25:09 PM »

Red Heifer Born in Israel!

In these days of difficulty for the Land of Israel, there is encouraging news as well... It can now be revealed that less than one month ago, a red heifer was born in Israel. After the heifer's owner contacted the Temple Institute, on Friday, April 5th, 2002, Rabbi Menachem Makover and Rabbi Chaim Richman traveled to the farm where the heifer is located, to inspect and validate her status.


Red HeiferThe rabbis found her to be kosher and were satisfied that this heifer could indeed be a candidate to be used in the process of purification described in the book of Numbers, chapter 19. This is a prerequisite for the rebuilding of the Holy Temple.

Tradition records that a red heifer in our generation is a herald of the Messianic era. It is certainly an important development towards the rebuilding of the Holy Temple. Our sages taught that Israel’s redemption can be compared to the dawn. "In the beginning, it progresses very slowly...but as it continues, it grows brighter and brighter."

The birth of a red heifer in Israel is being hailed by religious Jews as a divine sign that work can soon begin on building the Third Temple in Jerusalem.

A team of rabbinical experts confirmed that the animal, born on April 15, 1997 on a religious kibbutz near the north Israeli port of Haifa, meets the correct Biblical criteria for a genuine holy cow. According to the Book of Numbers (XIX: 2-7), the animal is needed for an ancient Jewish purification ritual.
NOVEMBER, 1998 : The latest news to hand as at November, 1998 is that the Red Heifer calf born on April 15, 1997 has been declared unclean.

A spot of white was found on the animal and accordingly the Rabbis have declared it unfit for the sanctification of the Priesthood.

"Speak unto the children of Israel that they bring thee a red heifer without spot, wherein is no blemish, and upon which never came yoke," says the fourth book of the Old Testament, also part of Jewish holy scripture, the Torah.

A Red HeiferThe heifer will be slaughtered and burned, and its ashes made into a liquid paste and used in a ceremony which religious Jews believe they must undergo before they can enter the old Temple site in Jerusalem to start building a new structure.

Since Herod's Temple was destroyed by the Roman emperor Titus in AD 70, no flawless red heifer has been born within the biblical land of Israel, according to rabbinical teaching.

The birth of the animal, to a black-and-white mother and a dun-coloured bull, is being hailed as a "miracle" by activists who want to rebuild the Third Temple and prepare the way for the Jewish messiah's entry to Jerusalem.

The faithful will need to wait until the heifer is at least three before it can be used in a ritual sacrifice. That would enable religious Jews to start the new millennium (a Christian event, but still regarded as portentous) in a state of purity.

News of the red heifer's appearance, however, will not be well received by Muslims. The site of the old Jewish temples in the Holy City is now occupied by one of Islam's holiest shrines, the Dome of the Rock. Jewish extremists want to destroy the Dome and the adjoining Al-Aqsa mosque to make way for a new temple. In 1985 a group of Jewish terrorists were jailed in Israel for planning to destroy the Dome with high explosives.

Western Wall in Jerusalem But Jewish activists say they regard it as their divine mission to build a new Temple. "We have been waiting 2,000 years for a sign from God, and now he has provided us with a red heifer," said Yehudah Etzion, the ringleader of the Eighties' plot to blow up the Dome, who was present at last week's inspection of the red heifer at Kfar Hassidim. "There were a couple of little white hairs which worried us, but the rabbis are satisfied that it is the red heifer referred to in the Bible," said Etzion. (SUNDAY TELEGRAPH)"


http://members.ozemail.com.au/~adamgosp/heifer.htm
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« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2004, 12:26:24 PM »

Not sure about the rebuilding of the temple....but one verse that seems to jump out at me regarding the current talks of land for peace and the division of Israels land is...

Dan 11:39  Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.

If this verse means what I think it means, any succesful land for peace deal will most likely come from the AC himself, not the Quartets road map for peace...who knows?  Whether or not that deal includes a rebuilding of the temple is not clear in scripture to me, but its no an unreasonable suggestion.

Grace and Peace!
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