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« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2004, 03:41:33 PM »

11/22/2004 9:08 PM

As attacks rise in France, Jews flock to Israel
By Andrea Stone, USA TODAY
JERUSALEM — Barbara and Moshe Journo left Lyons, France, with their 1-year-old daughter, Lital, four months ago to move into a cramped apartment at the Beit Canada Absorption Center here. They have no jobs, little money and despite intensive Hebrew immersion remain more inclined to answer yes with a oui than a ken.

But like thousands of other French Jews who have moved to Israel in the past four years, they are glad to be here. Back in France, they say, rising anti-Semitic attacks by Muslim immigrants and the anti-Israel bias of the French government and media had made life increasingly uncomfortable for them.

"We want our daughter to grow up in Israel and not France, (where) it's dangerous because of the Arabs," says Barbara, 28. Asked if suicide bombings here by Palestinian terrorists aren't even more dangerous, she shakes her head. "Israel is ours," she says. "We feel here that God helps us."

Last week, Jews from 23 countries were living at the new immigrant complex in southern Jerusalem. But only the French — usually a third of the families who spend six months here adjusting to their new country — cite anti-Semitism as a prime motivator for emigrating, known here as "making Aliyah," or "going up."

"It's there in the air" of France, says Ahuva Volk, the center's cultural coordinator. "They all felt it at one time or another."

Sunday, French Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin marked the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Strasbourg from Adolf Hitler's troops with a speech that condemned the increase of anti-Semitic and other hate crimes in France. Last month, 88 tombs in a Jewish cemetery in Brumath, near Strasbourg, were painted with swastikas and "SS" initials.

"The wrong committed here is too deep for the state not to react with extreme severity and firmness toward all those who are nostalgic for racism and anti-Semitism," Rafarrin said.

Anti-Semitic incidents are not confined to France. Thursday, an Orthodox Jew was shot and killed in Antwerp, Belgium.

Increased attacks on Jews

A dwindling number of émigrés from the former Soviet Union and the 4-year-old Palestinian uprising have reduced immigration to Israel. But the number of French Jews making Aliyah is rising.

Since 2001, more than 2,000 French Jews have arrived each year, double the rate of the 1990s and more than from any other single country, says the Jewish Agency, the quasi-governmental agency that oversees immigration and absorption. That's a far larger proportion than from the USA, home to 10 times more Jews. There are about 600,000 Jews in France (about 1% of the population) vs. 6 million in the USA. France has the world's third-largest Jewish community after the USA and Israel.

Although most come here for religious or ideological reasons, the recent influx stems directly from increased attacks against Jewish schools, synagogues and cemeteries, and harassment of Orthodox Jews. Jewish leaders complain that few cases are prosecuted.

The number of violent anti-Semitic attacks in France increased to 193 in 2002 from 32 in 2001, and anti-Semitic attacks accounted for half of all racist attacks in France in 2002, according to a report by France's National Consulting Committee on Human Rights, an independent watchdog group. In 2003, the number of attacks fell to 125, according to the committee.

Some of the perpetrators are Muslims who sympathize with the Palestinian cause. They are among as many as 6 million Arab immigrants from North Africa who make up about 10% of France's population.

Much of the French Jewish community shares those roots. About 70% are one or two generations removed from Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia. But the increasing Arab population has convinced many "that the game is over for the Jew" in France, says Avi Zana, director of the Jewish Agency's European desk. Volk says nearly every French émigré family arrives with stories of persecution.

"France is an Arab country. That's enough for us to leave," says Moshe Bendrihem, 50, a Morrocan-born Jew who moved from a Paris suburb four years ago to Eli, a West Bank settlement. Bendrihem wears a skullcap, or kippah. He didn't always. "It is impossible to wear a kippah in France," he said, for fear of being singled out for attack.

At a welcoming ceremony for 200 French Jews this summer, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon advised all French Jews to "move immediately" to Israel. The comment enraged French officials.

But there is no doubt that anti-Zionism has morphed into anti-Semitism in many parts of France. Jews complain that French media rarely display the same level of outrage over anti-Jewish violence by French Muslims as Israeli attacks against Palestinians here. The Jewish community was infuriated that Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat was treated at a French military hospital, where French President Jacques Chirac paid a visit.

"Paris became the capital of Palestine" for two weeks, Zana says. Such events "are one other fact that goes into the decision" to leave France for Israel, he says.

The mutual admiration is apparent in the Palestinian territories, where French flags and portraits of Chirac adorn storefronts. After Arafat died Nov. 11, the French president eulogized the man the United States and Israel blamed for terrorist attacks against Israelis as "a man of courage and conviction."

Gerard Araud, France's ambassador to Israel, says his country "is neither better nor worse than other European countries" when it comes to anti-Semitism. He blames anti-Jewish violence in part on "a transfer from the intifada (uprising) to the suburbs of European cities." Araud says France has increased penalties for hate crimes, added school programs that teach tolerance and worked with Israel to shut down anti-Semitic Web sites.

The law of return

France has had a mixed record in its treatment of Jews. In the early 19th century, Emperor Napoleon emancipated European Jewry, removing economic and social restraints that had confined them to ghettos. In 1936, Leon Blum became France's first Jewish prime minister.

But Blum was later arrested and turned over to the Germans by the French Vichy government, which collaborated with the Nazis during World War II, when tens of thousands of Jews were deported to death camps. "To remember this period is very, very difficult for the Jews," Zana says. They think, "If they (did) it before, it's possible they will do it again."

French anti-Semitism helped spur the creation of Israel. As a journalist in Paris in 1894, Theodor Herzl reported on the trial of Alfred Dreyfus, an army officer falsely accused of treason mainly because he was Jewish. Two years later, the father of Zionism published The Jewish State. It said Jews could only be safe in a country of their own.

French Jews are among many who have taken advantage of Israel's law of return, which guarantees every Jew the right to become an Israeli citizen. French TV stations now share the dial with Russian channels here. French language bookstores have opened in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. Now, real estate offices post door signs saying, "On Parle Français."

"Because of the political situation in France, I feel a real increase of interest from the French Jews to come here," says Mikael Azran, owner of Hamishkenote real estate here. He says business has soared in the past two years, with 80% of his French clients buying property as a hedge against worsening conditions at home.

Many French Jews buy small pieds-a-terre they can trade in for bigger homes if they decide to immigrate here later. The buying spree has forced real estate prices to climb in areas favored by the French: Jerusalem, Netanya north of Tel Aviv, the port city of Ashdod and the Red Sea resort of Eilat.

"They buy for security," says Lev Stern, 59, as he browses magazines at Vice-Versa, the French bookstore here. "It's like insurance."

Interest in the Jewish state can be gauged by the number of visitors. Nearly 200,000 French tourists came to Israel in the first nine months of 2004, a 74% jump over the same period last year. "Many want to feel closer to Israel," says Leon Rozenbaum, president of Unifan, a French immigrants association here. "They want to look at what could be a future in Israel."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004-11-22-jews-france_x.htm

Normally I don't look to USA Today, because of their liberlism.
Bob
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« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2004, 05:43:42 PM »

DreamWeaver,

Brother, I'm reading more and more about persecution of Jews, but the same is true for Christians. There is a growing thought that Christians are ignorant, people to be ignored, even in America. France is not alone in the persecution of Jews. That appears to be almost a global problem, except in America. It should be painfully obvious that a lot of the hate against America is because of our support for Israel. As an individual, my support for Israel will not change. My primary reason is the Holy Bible and Bible prophecy that I know will be fulfilled. I've said this before, and I meant it: If I had to go to war involving Israel, I would be fighting on the side of Israel. It's true that they would need a wheelchair brigade for me to be much use.   Cheesy

So far, it is impossible to ignore Christians in America, and it is also impossible to silence us. However, that doesn't mean the devil will quit trying.

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2004, 10:52:45 PM »

For an interesting view of Israel's History and an interactive explainer of the current Road map for peace, I found these to be very interesting...


Interactive Road to Peace explainer, Sound and images.

History of Israel  Ranging from From 1,000 BC to current.

History and Prophecy buffs alike should really enjoy these.

Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2004, 12:05:54 AM »

The return of the one pure language, Hebrew.
Zephaniah 3:9  "For then I will return to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve him with one consent."

Prior to the restoration of Israel in 1948, Hebrew was a dead language. Now Hebrew is spoken throughout Israel.

Apperance of the red heifer, after 2000 years.
Numbers 19:2-7 "This is the statute of the law which the Lord has commanded, saying, "Speak to the sons of Israel that they bring you an unblemished red heifer in which is no defect and on which a yoke has never been placed. "You shall give it to Eleazar the priest, and it shall be brought outside the camp and be slaughtered in his presence. Next Eleazar the priest shall take some of its blood with his finger and sprinkle some of its blood toward the front of the tent of meeting seven times. "Then the heifer shall be burned in his sight; its hide and its flesh and its blood, with its refuse, shall be burned. "The priest shall then wash his clothes and bathe his body in water, and afterward come into the camp, but the priest shall be unclean until evening."

Ethiopian Jews return to Israel.
Zephaniah 3:10-11 "From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia My worshipers, My dispersed ones, will bring My offerings. In that day you will feel no shame because of all your deeds by which you have rebelled against Me; For then I will remove from your midst your proud, exulting ones, and you will never again be haughty on My holy mountain."

In 1984, Operation Moses saw the airlift of 15,000 Jews who had already fled to refugee camps in Sudan to escape starvation. In 1991, Operation Solomon flew 20,000 Jews to Israel from Ethiopia itself. A further airlift began in June of 1999, aimed at transporting the last 3,000 members of the Quara Jewish community from northeastern Ethiopia to Israel.

Russian Jews return to Israel.
Jeremiah 23:7-8 "Therefore behold, the days are coming declares the Lord, when they will no longer say, as the Lord lives, who brought up the sons of Israel from the land of Egypt, but as the Lord lives, who brought up and led back the descendants of the household of Israel from the north land and from all the countries where I have driven them. Then they will live on their own soil."

In the 1970's and 1980's there was a mass exodus of Russian Jews out of Communist Russia. In 1999 the Associated Press reported a dramatic increase in the number of Jewish immigrants from Russia, bringing the largest number of Russian Jews to Israel since the early 1990's.

Resting in the arms of Jesus.
Bob
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« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2004, 09:33:34 PM »

I've been furthering my research on Israel and the promised land.  I wanted to deepen this study with a bit of history and more scripture I have located.

History of the land.

The first commonwealth of Israel,

Joshua to Saul, to David, to Solomon, and down to Zedekiah.   The state of Israel came into being from 1,097 BCE and lasted down to 606 BCE – 490 years.   This period of sojourn marked the first possession of the land.

Nebuchadnezzar – King of Babylon conqured Israel in 606BC and destroyed Jerusalem 19 years later in 587BC.   This era of captivity lasted 70 years, from 606BC – 535BC and marked the first uprooting or scattering of Israel.   1st scattering was not world-wide, but localized – in Babylon!

Persian King Darrius Decreed Jews could return to Jerusalem.   Ezra 7 and Nehemiah 2 record the decree of Artaxerxes referred to in Daniel, that established the timeline for the first coming of messiah – 445BC.   Decree also enabled a remnant of Israel to be reconstituted back to the promised land.  This marked the 2nd possession of the land.


Jesus appeared the first time while Israel was under Roman occupation Daniel 9:25

(Christ was caught up to heaven.)

Rev 12:5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.



The great dispora 2nd scattering took place in 70AD.

You will note that this uprooting scattered the Jews world wide, unlike the first which was localized.

Eze 22:15  And I will scatter thee among the heathen, and disperse thee in the countries, and will consume thy filthiness out of thee.

Amo 9:9  For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.


Eze 36:19  And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.

Deu 28:64  And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

Now comes a long period of land changing hands many times.  From the 7th century through roughly 1917 the land is owned mainly by Islamic people.

THEN.....

UN partitions the land.

In November 29, 1947 UN resolution 181 and later 191 was to partition the land and preserve Jerusalem as a global Holy City.

Joe 3:1  For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
Joe 3:2  I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Future still...

Amo 9:15  And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.


Israel is recovered for a second time in May 14 1948!

Isa 11:10  And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign (flag/banner) of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Isa 11:11  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.   (the world!)

WOW!!!!   I had never even noticed this before.  Powerful and detailed right from the word of God!


As soon as Israel declares itself independent in 1948, 5 Arab nations rejected Israel’s right to existence.  Egypt, Jordon, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq all attacked Israel in an attempt to annihilate them at that time.

Psa 83:4  They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.
Psa 83:5  For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee:

All these peoples named in the verses that follow can be traced to the 5 Arab nations mentioned above!  

WOW AGAIN!!!  Israel repelled the attack and remained.    


Zec 12:2  Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:3  And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.


Rome, UN, Vatican, EU, the entire Arab world, are all burdened with Israel’s existence.  The world is focused on little Israel in order to bring about peace!   The UN stated that Israel is the biggest problem to world peace.   When viewed through glasses of scripture and history, the odds are getting very very slim here that this is all happen stance.    God is not finished with Israel.   The whole world is against Israel, and America who supports her.   Is this any coincidence?   This is what world wide terrorism is all about.  Israel and we who support her right to be a nation.



History – Various happenings in the mid east, or attempts to force peace.

Suez 1956 Arab - Israeli war.
6 day war 1967
Yom Kippur war 1973
Camp David 1978
Lebanese war 1982
Gulf war I 1991
Oslo accord 1993
Arab uprising 2001
Gulf war II 2003
Roadmap to peace 2003 – 2004

Still trying to part the land in order to bring about peace.  Not going to happen till Jesus brings peace, and even that will cause a world war against Christ and His people…AKA Armageddon.




Peace and Security – signs

Luk 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

The Greek word for Perplexity in this passage is– apora, which = quandary.   How fitting is that.  The world is in a hopeless quandary searching for lasting peace and security, and it's all related to Israel being a little tiny Nation right in the middle of it all.

World concerns?

WMD’s
Atomic Weapons
Terrorism
Peace in Israel

You betcha!

The worlds lust for peace without God will send it headlong into the trap that awaits them.

Dan 8:25  And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.


1Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


We have a revived Roman Empire in the EU.  They have even called themselves by this name!  
We have a leader who is overseeing the EU and it's foreign policy.
We have Israel restored as a nation.
We have world leaders who ALL see Israel as key issue to peace and security. Perplexed!

This is just a small list…


Folks, we are headed for home plate.   Scripture outlines these events down to the smallest details.   The fine details are even coming into view now.   Lift up your heads and rejoice, for your redemption draweth neigh!

Grace and Peace!
« Last Edit: November 26, 2004, 10:14:36 PM by 2nd Timothy » Logged

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« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2004, 11:40:04 PM »

2nd Timothy & Dreamweaver,

Thanks brothers. All I can say is, "WOW! - awesome!"

I said that I would try to catch up with the prophecy threads, and I will try. My pile of notes and portions of Scripture that I want to study are getting pretty deep.   Cheesy  However, Bible study is one of my favorite things, so pile it on.

The key issues in Bible prophecy always includes Israel either at the top or near the top of the list. We actually live in a time not prophesied by the Old Testament Prophets. It's fascinating to know that we live between Daniel's 69th and 70th week, a time in human history only described in detail by the Apostle Paul.

Some of the things that have confused people for centuries are being fulfilled and WILL BE MOST DEFINITELY fulfilled to the letter of the Holy Bible. Daniel's 70th Week is near. The world has never known such horror, wrath, devastation, and death, and tiny Israel will be the center focus for the entire world.

Brothers, there isn't much left to be fulfilled until the 70th Week begins.

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2004, 04:57:22 AM »

BEP posted
Quote
2nd Timothy & Dreamweaver,

Thanks brothers. All I can say is, "WOW! - awesome!"

I said that I would try to catch up with the prophecy threads, and I will try. My pile of notes and portions of Scripture that I want to study are getting pretty deep.   :D  However, Bible study is one of my favorite things, so pile it on.

The key issues in Bible prophecy always includes Israel either at the top or near the top of the list. We actually live in a time not prophesied by the Old Testament Prophets. It's fascinating to know that we live between Daniel's 69th and 70th week, a time in human history only described in detail by the Apostle Paul.

Some of the things that have confused people for centuries are being fulfilled and WILL BE MOST DEFINITELY fulfilled to the letter of the Holy Bible. Daniel's 70th Week is near. The world has never known such horror, wrath, devastation, and death, and tiny Israel will be the center focus for the entire world.

Brothers, there isn't much left to be fulfilled until the 70th Week begins.

BigD responds:
My Bible teaches me that the 70th week of Daniel (the Tribulation) had already started in Acts 2. In verses 15-20 Peter is telling his listeners that the Tribulation has already started. He is quoting Joel 2:28-32 almost word for word. Joel is speaking of the 70th week of Daniel 9.

Peter knew exactly where he was in the timetable of prophesy of Prophesy because he and the other disciples were speaking "as the Spirit gave the utterance" (Acts 2:4). Further, before Jesus returned to heaven, He had opened the understanding of the OT Scriptures to all His disciples (Luke 24:45).

The Tribulation, which is to last 7 years, started at Pentecost, but was interrupted after God set the nation of Israel aside after the stoning of Stephen. It will resume when this dispensation of grace is ended by the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ.

While Jesus was ministering upon the earth, the dispensation of the Law was in effect, and was in effect until God set the nation of Israel aside. The setting aside of Israel interrupted the dispensation of the Law. God then raised up Saul/Paul to usher in this dispensation of grace, which cannot be found in prophesy. This dispensation of grace is a "(parenthetical)" period with in the dispensation of the Law.

When this dispensation comes to a close, the dispensation of the Law and the Tribulation will resume. The "so called" great commission will again be able to be carried out.

There are many authors and raido/TV Bible "end time" preachers  to like to make the events of today fit Bible prophesy. They make for very interesting reading and listening, but there is no "end time prophesy" being fulfilled today in this dispensation of grace. However, there are many events taking place today that are leading up to the fulfillment of end time prophesies.

The only event that must take place prior to the Tribulation being resumed is the rapture of the Church. When Paul speaks of the "last days," he is speaking of the last days of the dispensation of grace.

When Paul mentions "the trump of God" in 1Thess4:16, he cannot referring to the 7th trump in the book of the Revelation, because, the book of the Revelation hadn't been written yet.

From my studies of the Bible I too believe that this dispensation of grace is in it's last days, and the rapture is near. However, it could still go on for several more years, or it could end before you even read what I have just written, or evern sooner.

From reading the "end time series," I do find them very interesting to read, but trying to read the happenings of today into them, is pure speculation.

They remind me a great deal of Jack Van Impe. I do have a booklet that he wrote in the 1970's. In it he is explaining how the events of that day (oil crisis and all/monetary infalation and high interests rates) were the fulfillment of prophesy and were ushering in the "last days." Well, those events have concluded and we are still here. I still listen to him occasionally, and find that is is still trying to fit the happenings of today into endtime prophesy.

I find the passage in Luke 13:6-9 very interesting as to the setting aside of Israel and the events leading up to it.

Luke 13:6 He (Jesus) spake also this parable; A certain man (God) had a fig tree (Isreal) planted in his vineyard (earthly creation); and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he (God) unto the dresser of his vineyard (Jesus), Behold, these three years (the earthly ministry of Jesus) I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he (Jesus) answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: (The "fertilizer here, I do believe, is the power of the HOly Spirit that was given at Pentecost. The "year" is the time from Pentecost until the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7; at which time God set the nation of Israel aside.
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down. (Israel, as a nation, did not bear fruit and was set aside [Romans 11:7-12].)

With the setting aside of Israel, the "end time timetable" has been stopped, and won't resume until after the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!
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« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2004, 11:59:02 AM »

BigD,

Brother, we agree on the biggest and most important things of His Word, and we can pleasantly agree to disagree on what remains. I'm not suggesting that Bible Prophecy isn't big and important, rather that disagreement on some prophecy details is not a Salvation issue. Another example of this is the timing of the RAPTURE. I have really enjoyed studying several stances on the RAPTURE, and the same is true for end time Bible Prophecy.

Brother, I will study the issue you just raised. I find it fascinating and love to study the Bible, so please post some more. An exchange of varying thoughts and opinions will enhance the Bible study. I certainly think that we can do that without turning it into a debate. I would simply say thanks for adding to the portions of Scripture that I want to study.

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2004, 01:33:23 PM »

BEP:
THANK YOU for your interesting reply.

Isn't is GREAT that our salvation is based upon our relationship with God and not on every point of doctrine.

For us believers, if still alive, the blessed hope of the rapture will be our rescue from the Tribulation.

Many today teach and preach that when Jesus came on earth, that He was offering His Kingdom to Israel and that When Peter offered the Kingdom in Acts 3:19, 20, that it was the 2nd offer of the kingdom. For this view, I cannot find any Scriptural support. I have even heard some say that it was the third offer of the Kingdom.

I can find that the Kingdom was promised to Israel way back in the Old Testament, and even Paul says in Romans 15:8 that Jesus came to fulfill the promises made to the fathers. Also, we know that it was the time for the Kingdom to be established because the King had arrived and was born in Bethleham. However, I cannot find where Jesus ever made the offer.

We know from prophesy that two events must happen prior to the Kingdom being established. Israel must go through the Tribulation and the Mesiah must suffer.

Speaking of Himself, Jesus says in Luke 17:25 "But first must he (the Messiah) suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation."

Based on the above, there was no way that Jesus could make an offer of the Kingdom at that time.

At the time of Pentecost, we know that the Messiah completed His rejection and suffering. Peter, knowing the Scriptures, now is telling his listeners that the Tribulation has already started. Therfore, he could make an offer of the Kingdom, based upon their repentance. Had Israel repented, then the Tribulation would have continued for the 7 year duration and Jesus would have returned. However, as I have stated previously, it was interrupted with the setting aside of the nation Israel; after the stoning of Stepen

There is another thing I find in the book Luke that I find very interesting.

Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him (Jesus) the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the broken  hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 and he bagan to say unto them This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Jesus is reading from Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

After comparing the two above passages, notice where Jesus left off reading and closed the book. It is between the phrases "To preach the acceptable year of the Lord" and "and the day of vengeance of our God;"

Had Jesus read "and the day of vengeance of our God," He would not have been able to say in Luke 4:21 "This day is this scriopture fulfilled in your ears, because "the day of vengeance of our God" is The Tribulation. The acceptable year of the Lord is every year.

This dispensation of Grace cannot be found in prophesy, but I do believe that it fits right in between "the acceptable year of the Lord" and "the day of vengeance of our God.

Looking forward to you response.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Much and Love The Lord!
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« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2004, 11:32:41 PM »

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BigD Said:

This dispensation of Grace cannot be found in prophesy, but I do believe that it fits right in between "the acceptable year of the Lord" and "the day of vengeance of our God.

Looking forward to you response.

BigD,

I've just spent several hours with my grandson, so I'm too tired to do much tonight.   Cheesy  It's a good tired though.

I believe that the Apostle Paul explains the dispensation of Grace quite well, and the answer for why this dispensation is not included in Old Testament Prophecy is also explained. Many of the things of Christ were a mystery not made known to men of other ages. The dispensation of Grace is now, and that's what the Apostle Paul calls it. In terms of Daniel's time-line, I believe that our current time falls between the 69th & 70th week. I have many reasons for this belief, but one of the most simple reasons is that the Dispensation of God's Grace is not a part of Daniel's time-line. Further, there is ample reason to believe that many things of Christ were a mystery to other New Testament writers until Paul preached them. Please don't get the wrong idea that I'm suggesting ONLY the study of Paul's writings, because I would believe otherwise. I believe that the entire Bible has great value for study.

We agree completely that Israel was put aside, and it will remain so until the "fullness of the Gentiles be come in." I think that time draws near. I believe that the Tribulation Period is a literal 7 year period of time, and I don't think that time has arrived. I'll have to study the possibility of an interrupted Tribulation Period before I would have much of a comment on that. Many years of previous Bible study would make me believe differently than you do, but I'm open to study and will do so at my first opportunity.

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2004, 04:25:44 AM »

BEP:
THANKS for your reply.

Can understand what grand-children can do. For now, it is my great-grand-daughter that is quite capable of doing that. Her younger sister isn't quite old enough to do that YET.

My views concerning the Tribulation period matched yours some years age, but Bible study has changed my views. Being I am still in the learning mode, they could possibly be changed again, or at least modified. The more I study the Bible, the more I learn. It is a never ending process. Participating in these forums have broadened my knowledge of the Bible and what other doctrines are out there. I enjoy discussing the issues when we differ. Some call it "debate"/"argue", whereas I prefer to call it "discussion".

My personal belief is that when one says that they do not want to debate/agrue with me; it usually means that they can't defend their position. I try extremely hard to only present my views that I am prepared to defend.

God Bless, and continue to enjoy you grand-son. Had I have know that grand-children could be so much fun, I would have had them first.

Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!



Am looking forward to what you further study
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« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2004, 11:25:43 AM »


Since Arafat, is out of the way I have been thinking alot how this could bring the Anti-Messiah onto the scene. The Israelis wanting peace with the Arabs this time line between now and possibly few more years can bring the false messiah. We're living in Prophecy as we speak with the Remenant of the Jewish people coming from the North and from all over the world. The Israelis will do almost anything for peace sadly to say most of your secular israelis want to give part of it to the arabs to give up the Jewish land that God which He has inscribed His name and invoked His name In Jerusalem, Israel. And we know by the Old Covenant, that they are not to sell there land to foreigners which the arabs are by scriptural standards since nobody wants the land but the arabs.
I, believe this is the time to watch out for the arab false messiah to appear anytime. Since we're living in prophecy that is happening all around Israel everyday we need to look up to the eastern sky and remeber that are redemption is near. We need to pray that the temple mount will collapse soon and with the arabs building more mosque underneath the temple mount, it will speedily cause it's collapse.
But i look to that earthquake that will cause it to fully collapse so that the Messiah can rebuild the 3rd Jewish Temple. Then afterwards the false messiah will declare the false peace treaty for one week {of years}. For half of the week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering.

The last desolation of abominations occured either 1st or 2nd temple. A pig was placed onto the altar causing this desolation of abominations. As well as there enemies set up altars for there idols and burnt incense at the doors of their houses and in the streets.
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« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2004, 02:52:35 PM »

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My personal belief is that when one says that they do not want to debate/agrue with me; it usually means that they can't defend their position. I try extremely hard to only present my views that I am prepared to defend.

Nice try!  Smiley   My personal belief is to search the word for truth, not arguing the finer points in an attempt to prove ones knowledge.     Knowledge comes from the Lord, not arguing.   I'm sorry your desire is to debate me.   My desire is to understand Gods word, not views.   If my views don't match up to yours, rather than attempting to prove me wrong, prove yourself right by your own study of the word.  If you find that I am indeed wrong, then you might pray for me that the Holy Spirit would teach me a better understanding than I currently have.   This would be far more beneficial and adult like than weilding our pride and so called knowledge in an attempt to press our views as correct.   I don't think I ever said once in any of my threads that my views are absolute.  I still seek understanding just like you.   So since neither of us have absolute truth apart from trust in the Lord, lets instead pray for one another and continue to seek truth....IN HIS WORD!

If you still desire debate I certainly cannot stop you, but my peace is not dependant on it.

May God richly bless you!
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« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2004, 03:12:10 PM »

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BigD Said:

My personal belief is that when one says that they do not want to debate/agrue with me; it usually means that they can't defend their position. I try extremely hard to only present my views that I am prepared to defend.

BigD,

I would agree completely with 2nd Timothy, and I appreciate your blunt statement above. It simply means that I have nothing to discuss with you, but not for the reasons you state.

I've been involved in many debates during the past, and there was a common denominator with many of them:  (1) someone got their feelings hurt;  (2) the argument or debate did not honor God, rather the ego of one or more participants;  (3) everyone was wrapped up in themselves with no interest in learning or study.

2 Timothy 2:14  Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

That pretty much sums it up for me, so we have nothing to discuss.

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2004, 05:32:37 PM »

2T & BEP:
When I responded to your postings, I was not looking for a debate as to whether or not the Tribulation started in Acts 2:15-20. I was expressing my views. You will notice, that I gave Scriptural support as to how I arrived at my point of view.

As I am also a student of the Scriptures, I do a considerable amount of reading from different authors. My personal library of books by Bible commentators number well over 50. Some I would agree with the far majority of the time, Some I agree with in some areas, and some views I totally reject. My bench mark is the Bible in considering what the authors say. By reading all of the books plus the Bible, my knowledge of the Bible has been broadened.

My view of the Tribulation starting at Penatecost is based on Scripture. You both feel that we are in between the 69th and 70th week of Dainel's prophesy. Although I held that view for many many years, It was not based upon Scripture. It was what I was taught and wanted to believe. Neither of you have shown me from Scripture that my presenat view is wrong.

When, and if either of you two gentlemen can show me that my view is in error, I will be more then willing to change my views. Many of the views I hold today are far from what I was taught as a child and early adulthood.

My early religious background is that I came from a strong Calvinistic family and educated in the Calvinist "Christian School". In fact, two of my father's first cousins were professors at Calvin College. One was even honored by have a "house" named after him. I believed and wanted to believe everything I was taught, and very proud of my religious background.

From studying the Bible and reading and listening to different comentations, my views have changed constantly. The views I hold today are the result of much study. Previously I had found the Bible to be a contradictory and confusing book. As a result of my search for truth and studying, the Bible is now much more understandable and a joy to study. I can now understand God's Plan for the Ages.

I would really appreciate it if either, or both, of you would take the time and explain to why you feel that my view of the Tribulation starting a Pentecost is in error. Like I have said earlier, "I am still in the learning mode." I would not consider it a "debate" but and educational dialogue.

If I have given either, or both, of you gentlemen the impression that I wanted to debate/argue, it was not my intention. I am VERRY SORRY if I have given you that impression. However, I do enjoy discussing Scriptural topics.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!






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