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2nd Timothy
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« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2004, 08:21:55 AM »

The answer to that Reba is NO, they do not.  But it aint over just yet.   They will have all the land that God promised them at some point.   One possibility I have been looking at through out the minor prophets, indicates various wars with Syria, Lebanon and Jordon being made desolate by Israel.   There are a few verses that talk about the Jews moving into these areas as a result....which would indeed be a larger portion of Canaan.   I'm not sure how God will do it, but it will happen, because God says they will have it all.

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Tim

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« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2004, 03:12:25 PM »

Have they ever had the land after Abe?
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« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2004, 04:05:39 PM »

They have a good chunk of it now I believe.

The text on each segment is rather small, but it put a visual on the actual story with Abe as it goes along.




The current borders of Israel is indeed part (though only partial) of the original deal.   Those borders are going to expand at some point.  I believe that will likely be during or after the Tribulation.

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Tim

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« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2004, 04:19:59 PM »


Tim you did not answer the question  Angry    Tongue


 Grin  Here is one place the Word talks about the land...

Josh 21:43-45

43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.
KJV
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« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2004, 04:26:34 PM »

Quote
Tim you did not answer the question      

Uhh...call me silly, I guess I don't understand your question?  

Quote
Josh 21:43-45

43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Lest I misunderstand you again... Tongue  Grin your point here is?  That it came to pass and is finished?
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Tim

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« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2004, 10:05:00 AM »

Have they ever had the land after Abe?

 Tim your answer was  "They have a good chunk of it now I believe."


 Scripture plainly says.... Josh 21:43-45

43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.
KJV



Tim said ..."Lest I misunderstand you again...    your point here is?  That it came to pass and is finished? "  

My answer to your question/statment is.... My point was posting ,some, of what the scripture has to say about the land.   God said  "all came to pass"  So that is fact.

Looking at yoru question..  " and is finished?" I do not know, and our ideas on the subject differ...The Jews missed Jesus because they did not understand or accept the King as He was/is. They were wanting and looking for some one to save them from Rome. He did and they still dont see it....
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« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2004, 10:49:13 AM »

Reba,

I know that our views differ on this.   Rather than hash out points about it, I would simply encourage you to read Ezekiel 36, and 37.    Also worth looking into is Romans 11.   I had rather the word lead you to a conclusion regarding this, over me trying to convince you of my view of it.   Smiley

Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2004, 01:44:01 PM »

Tim,

OK   Sad Tim I am sorry you do not wish to discuss the topic with me. I lived looking to Israel for most of my life so i know where you are coming from.  I have found many a poster to say the same thing to me, implying i need to read scripture. I just read through Ezekiel and Romans last month.  Reading the Word is what has brought me to the understanding i hold at this time. Keep sharing the Gospel Tim,  blessings....
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« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2004, 02:11:26 PM »

Tim,

OK   Sad Tim I am sorry you do not wish to discuss the topic with me. I lived looking to Israel for most of my life so i know where you are coming from.  I have found many a poster to say the same thing to me, implying i need to read scripture. I just read through Ezekiel and Romans last month.  Reading the Word is what has brought me to the understanding i hold at this time. Keep sharing the Gospel Tim,  blessings....

Reba....lol  I don't have any problem discussing it with you!   Tongue   I also was not implying that you need scriptural guidance.     What I was trying to say is, I don't want you to feel as if I am trying to force my view of these things on you.  Understand?   The word is a far better teacher than I.....I too am looking into these things in great detail as of late.  

Since you say you have already looked into these things, I would definitely be interested in hearing what you believe Ezekiel 36 and 37 refer to if they don't refer to Israel as a nation being restored both physically and spiritually.

Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2004, 03:14:28 PM »

Quote
43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.
KJV

Of course I agree with this completely.  

Quote
Tim said ..."Lest I misunderstand you again...    your point here is?  That it came to pass and is finished? "  

My answer to your question/statment is.... My point was posting ,some, of what the scripture has to say about the land.   God said  "all came to pass"  So that is fact.

Absolutely...there is no questions from me here.  I would however make clear that the promise to Abram was an everlasting promise.   That too is fact.  Psa 105:10 and 11

Quote
Looking at yoru question..  " and is finished?" I do not know, and our ideas on the subject differ...The Jews missed Jesus because they did not understand or accept the King as He was/is. They were wanting and looking for some one to save them from Rome. He did and they still dont see it....

Yes they missed Jesus and still do not acknowledge Him.  This is where Ezekiel applies.

Eze 36:18  Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:

Was fury ever poured out on Israel due to blood they had shed?  

Eze 36:19  And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
Eze 36:20  And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.


And this one...When were the Jews removed from their land in History and scattered among the nations?.  


Eze 36:21  But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.


His pity is not on them, its for his Holy names sake.  Because they have profaned His name among the heathens.  How did they do profane His name?  Verse 20 above tells us how.


Eze 36:22  Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.


Not for their sake, but His Holy names Sake.


Eze 36:23  And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
Eze 36:24  For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.


Can you name another time in history where Israel was scattered through out the nations of the world, and then return to their land as these passages declared would happen?   Granted, they still have not acknowledged the Lord, but why would God declare it if He wont do it?  Chapter 37, 38 and 39 gives a detailed explanation of how that will take place.

I am currious to hear what you think this passage means.  


Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2004, 04:53:40 PM »

Tim thank you for making yourself clear  Smiley hope you have a wonderfull Thanksgiving....  

I have tried to group the Q&A by color


 Eze 36:18  Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:

Was fury ever poured out on Israel due to blood they had shed?

Matt 23:35-36

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
KJV
 
 I understand Christ to be speaking of the near future 70 AD When the way of life known to the Jews of that day and when the  generation that had the blood of Christ on their hands  was destroyed.


Eze 36:19  And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
Eze 36:20  And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.


And this one...When were the Jews removed from their land in History and scattered among the nations?.  

The question is how many times were they scattered  goodness most of the OT is of their goings and returnings. They did not truly hold the land at the time of Christ the nation was is slaved to Rome.



Eze 36:23  And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
Eze 36:24  For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

Eph 2:11-12

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
KJV

Eph 2:19-22

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
KJV

Heb 11:16

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
KJV


Can you name another time in history where Israel was scattered through out the nations of the world, and then return to their land as these passages declared would happen?  Granted, they still have not acknowledged the Lord, but why would God declare it if He wont do it?  Chapter 37, 38 and 39 gives a detailed explanation of how that will take place.




Seems to me the Jews were often scattered… You state “and then return to their land as these passages declared would happen?” Again I say they do not hold the land given to Abe. Maybe  this  will explain what I am saying….. Your Grandpa wills you his 4000 acre farm… you head off to California to claim this farm, when you get here the land you have is 40 acres do you have your inheritance? The simple answer is no. You don’t hold the land as the will declared.


Jer 40:12

12 Even all the Jews returned out of all places whither they were driven, and came to the land of Judah, to Gedaliah, unto Mizpah, and gathered wine and summer fruits very much.
KJV
 


 Heb 12:22-23

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
KJV

 
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« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2004, 09:17:30 PM »

Quote
Eze 36:18  Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:

Was fury ever poured out on Israel due to blood they had shed?

Matt 23:35-36

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
KJV

I understand Christ to be speaking of the near future 70 AD When the way of life known to the Jews of that day and when the  generation that had the blood of Christ on their hands  was destroyed.


Agreed!


Quote
Eze 36:19  And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
Eze 36:20  And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.


And this one...When were the Jews removed from their land in History and scattered among the nations?.  

The question is how many times were they scattered  goodness most of the OT is of their goings and returnings. They did not truly hold the land at the time of Christ the nation was is slaved to Rome.

Well let me narrow it down a bit.  From what is foretold in Eze, can I assume we both agree that IT is refering to what took place in 70 AD?    I think we are on the same page here, but I want to be sure before I move ahead.

Grace and Peace!
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« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2004, 07:50:08 PM »

Have they ever had the land God promised?
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« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2004, 08:10:43 PM »

From what is foretold in Eze, can I assume we both agree that IT is refering to what took place in 70 AD?    I think we are on the same page here, but I want to be sure before I move ahead.

 Smiley

Did God ever bless all the families of the earth through Abram and the promise?
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« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2004, 10:29:52 AM »

Let me ask this way do the scriptures tell us wither or not they ever had all the land promised?
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