Maps of Israel / West Bank

[2nd Timothy]

It was great!  I am growing tired of turkey sandwiches now though....lol   As much as I love them, theres only so many you can eat.

Bring on the Christmas ham  

[Reba]

Prime rib...


Back to topic  i do believe i have answered your questions.. let me post a few scriptures and ask you how they figure into your thoughts.  

1 Cor 15:44-50

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

1 Peter 2:6-10

6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
KJV

Heb 12:22-24

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
KJV


Please Tim take into account as you respond all the scriptures which 'give' the blessing or inheritance to the younger brother...

[2nd Timothy]

Of course I believe all of these passages, and they fit perfectly with what I believe.   However, they do not ommit the parts that pertain to Israel, being seperate from the Church body of Christ, eventually being saved like we as a nation.

Rom 11:23  And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24  For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27  For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28  As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29  For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.




Once again key verses from the Amplified version

 
Rom 11:26  And so all Israel will be saved. As it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will banish ungodliness from Jacob. [Isa. 59:20, 21.]
Rom 11:27  And this will be My covenant (My agreement) with them when I shall take away their sins. [Isa. 27:9; Jer. 31:33.]
Rom 11:28  From the point of view of the Gospel (good news), they [the Jews, at present] are enemies [of God], which is for your advantage and benefit. But from the point of view of God's choice (of election, of divine selection), they are still the beloved (dear to Him) for the sake of their forefathers.
Rom 11:29  For God's gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.]

This is black and white stuff here.  The Jews (Israel) are going to be Saved as a nation.   I know this creates numerous problems from a preterist perspective, but this is not my view here, its Pauls!

I completely agree that these must accept Christ as their personal saviour.  I totally disagree that we the Church have replaced Israel, as replacement theology teaches.  There are simply too many references to Israel itself begin restored to just ignore them.  Rightly dividing the word, it is abundantly clear what Israel's future is.    

Grace and Peace!

[Reba]

Rom 11:26  And so all Israel will be saved. As it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will banish ungodliness from Jacob. [Isa. 59:20, 21.]
Rom 11:27  And this will be My covenant (My agreement) with them when I shall take away their sins. [Isa. 27:9; Jer. 31:33.]
Rom 11:28  From the point of view of the Gospel (good news), they [the Jews, at present] are enemies [of God], which is for your advantage and benefit. But from the point of view of God's choice (of election, of divine selection), they are still the beloved (dear to Him) for the sake of their forefathers.
Rom 11:29  For God's gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.]


Black and white?  Ok what does all  Israel mean?

To me all Israel would be ALL Israel  correct? She asks her loaded question again....

To be black and white all must mean all and then any person who is naturally born of Jewish blood will be saved.. But wait  what of theose who are not Jewish by blood but Jewish via faith?  and how much Jewish blood make one a Jew ( Tim I use the term Jewish i do believe it can be some what interchanged with Israelie etc you understand that correct?)
So a person born in Israel is saved, saved by natural birth, the blood of his/her parents? What of the Jews in the USA?

[2nd Timothy]

Ok what does all  Israel mean?

To me all Israel would be ALL Israel  correct? She asks her loaded question again....

To be black and white all must mean all and then any person who is naturally born of Jewish blood will be saved.. But wait  what of theose who are not Jewish by blood but Jewish via faith?  and how much Jewish blood make one a Jew ( Tim I use the term Jewish i do believe it can be some what interchanged with Israelie etc you understand that correct?)
So a person born in Israel is saved, saved by natural birth, the blood of his/her parents? What of the Jews in the USA?

Reba…lol

It's not really as complicated as you make it sound.   This does not mean ALL JEWS from all generations.  Paul had already elaborated in an earlier chapter that it would be a remnant of the children of Israel that was to be saved.

Rom 9:27  Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Quoting from Isa 10

Isa 10:21  The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
Isa 10:22  For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.


And now in chapter 11 he says…

Rom 11:25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


He is speaking of an ultimate future ingathering of the NATION of Israel.  For example…

If the nation of Israel turned to Christ for salvation today, that would truly be a remnant of Jews throughout history wouldn’t it?   But, Could one also not say that “ALL Israel was saved”, if the whole nation turned to Christ  tomorrow?   Yes!  

As for the blood type, quantity, quality, local, yadda yadda…this is silly talk.  If God is able to know the very thoughts of men, surely He is able to know who, when, and how it will take place.   The text gives no such explaination.   It just says all of Israel.   If the word of God says it will happen, it will happen regardless of how impractical we may think it is.   The main point was, that Israel (the nation, albeit a remnant) shall be saved because “they are beloved for the fathers' sakes” v-28.     That part is as black and white as it gets, at least to me it is.

Again, I am aware that your study of scripture leads you to believe differently than me.   No doubt this very Issue has a big bearing on how we each view endtime events.   Either way, we both agree firmly that Christ is the saviour of the world, and He is the only way to the Father.  

Grace and Peace!

[Reba]

Rom 11:26  And so all Israel will be saved. As it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will banish ungodliness from Jacob. [Isa. 59:20, 21.]
Rom 11:27  And this will be My covenant (My agreement) with them when I shall take away their sins. [Isa. 27:9; Jer. 31:33.]
Rom 11:28  From the point of view of the Gospel (good news), they [the Jews, at present] are enemies [of God], which is for your advantage and benefit. But from the point of view of God's choice (of election, of divine selection), they are still the beloved (dear to Him) for the sake of their forefathers.
Rom 11:29  For God's gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.]

Tim,

I agree it is silly … but the question also shows the verses are not so black and white…  

Tim I do appreciate your dialog on the topic!  The Amplified Bible is a huge reason for my understanding i got a smile  :-Xwhen you used it.

I will try and put to words my understanding of the above verses, and add a few more.

All of Israel will be saved how? by the Deliverer Jesus Christ. And all who are saved are saved via His blood there is no other salvation. This happened at the Cross. All who are saved are Israel. Just as when the ‘children’ left Egypt non Jews went also and were counted as the ‘children’

Ex 12:38

38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.
KJV

I do not believe the church replaces the Jews or Israel


Ex 19:5-6

5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
KJV

1 Peter 2:9

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
KJV

 I believe the church or Christians are a continuation of His people.


Bondwoman = Bondage under Gods law

Freewoman= Freedom in Christ

Gal 4:22-31

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
KJV

Heb 12:22

22 But ye are come  ( done deal)  unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
KJV


Eph 2:12-18

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
KJV




Gal 3:27-29

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV


Are some Christians less the others or are all who the blood of Jesus Christ saved heirs according to the promise.  Verse 29 is black and white.

[Reba]

 Is it the land that makes a peoples a nation?

I say no.

[2nd Timothy]

Reba, I agree with you here.  We are heirs of the promise, and it must happen through Christ, and we are a spiritual nation!   I do not agree that the Church has replaced Israel.  Paul clearly points out that we were grafted onto the Root, while Israel, the natural branches were broken off due to unbelief.   These were blinded so that WE could be grafted in and become heirs.  

Rom 11:11  I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Why would God want to provoke the Jews to jealousy?   So He could revel in their grief?   God wants the Jews to receive their messiah...just like He wanted the gentiles to receive Him.    This is all part of Gods Plan for mankind in total.

Rom 11:1  I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2  God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

This is not talking about the Church....its talking about Abrams litteral seed!   Yes a remnant, but this is Gods own doing because of His infinite wisdom and desire for the litteral seed to also accept His Son.  


So what do we make of what Paul says in 11?   What do we make of Eze 36, 37?   What do we make of Revelation 7?  Just to name a few.  A remnant of Israel is going to come to Christ in the end.    This is the second most talked about thing in prophecy next to messiahs first and second coming.   This is why its short of miraculous that Israel while not fully restored physically or spiritually seems to dominate world news today.   The age of Grace is growing short, and the 70th week is going to be fulfilled on this tiny nation and the world.  

Are Jews returning to the land from every nation?
Is Israel a cup of trembling to those who burdon themselves with her?
Has Joe 3:2 ever happened? and if so how does this apply to the Church?
What about Eze 38 and 39, talking about the Church or Israel?

I'm not trying to flood you with questions Reba...these are retorical questions that you must answer for yourself.   I think we are actually in agreement on much, we just differ on the salvation of litteral Israel which to me is very black and white in scripture.   I don't believe our personal salvation is dependant on our interpretation of this.   I too enjoy talking about it, but I sense we are each beating a dead horse so to speak (no pun intended     )    

If I'm wrong, you can toss Manna pie in my face when we get to heaven and say...
I told you so.      

[Reba]

Ok Tim,
  after this note i will drop the topic on this thread.

 I DO NOT believe the church to be a replacement of Israel.

Manna ? sheesh  home made coconut cream  with real whipped cream not kool whip

And questions to you Tim:

How come God looses count  1 through 69 then a big gap to 70?

Whatever is meant by  'shortly' and 'at hand'. (Rev.1 verses 1&3) ?

Could it be that as Christs words in Matt were a warrning to 'that ' generation? Revelation is the more detailed picture of what was to come to that generation (70 ad)

Gods Word , apart from being His Word, is a great book look how alive it is after all these years the different avenues a student can see.

Off to the glue factory with the horses....

[2nd Timothy]

How come God looses count  1 through 69 then a big gap to 70?

Because the mystery of the Church lies there-in.    Which is sort of what we have been discussing (in a round about way).   History simply does not support the events named in Revelation, which details the events of the 70th week.   Either way you slice it, theres still a gap, because Christ certainly has not returned yet.

Whatever is meant by  'shortly' and 'at hand'. (Rev.1 verses 1&3) ?

I can only equate it to the same "shortly" mentioned at the end of the book

Rev 22:6  And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

and

Rev 22:20  He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.


Still waiting for this without question, yet Christ says they are faithful and true sayings.   I would say trust His use of these words, not mine.

Could it be that as Christs words in Matt were a warrning to 'that ' generation? Revelation is the more detailed picture of what was to come to that generation (70 ad)

(edit to add...I do believe some of Matt 24 is in reference to 70 AD...just wanted to clarify)

There are many who share this view Reba.   I certainly do not, but we have already been around the issues on this many times in past discussions.   If you can point out to me where Christ returned in 70 AD it would make alot more sense.   But its simply not recorded History, and there is no evidence to support He has returned or that we have been Changed from imortality....if we are, then someones holding out on me...lol.   These events are future still, because they include the Lords second return.  

Grace and Peace!