Why don't we call for the president to stop killing IRAQI babies?

[Shammu]

Shouldn't we all be advocating for peace, rather than justifying war?

How do you propose advocating peace with folks who enjoy cutting off the heads of peacful individuals?

Your false Christianity flies in the face of CHRISTS teaching.  Find me ONE PASSAGE in the gospels where CHRIST tells me that it is okay to wage a war, where killing innocents is excused.

Just one? okay how about, several.

It wasn't until Augustine addressed the subject around 400 A.D. that Christians realized sometimes the way to peace required taking the road to war. Augustine said, "Peace is not sought in order to provide war, but war is waged in order to attain peace." And with that, Augustine began laying the foundation for what we know today as the principles for Just War, which states:

1. JUST WAR can only be waged by legitimate authorities.
2. JUST WAR must exhaust all non-violent options first.
3. JUST WAR must have a reasonable chance to succeed.
4. JUST WAR must be fought with right intentions.
5. JUST WAR must discriminate between combative enemies and non-combative civilians (Death of civilians is considered justifiable only if unavoidable).
6. JUST WAR's ultimate goal should be to re-establish peace.

Augustine's rationale for war was nothing new. It was simply an elaboration of what the Bible had said all along, and what Christians had missed for 400 years.

As Christians is it our duty to forgive, to turn the other cheek, to love our enemies? Yes, it is! These verses lay out the Christian's responsibility before God. This is how we, as Christians, are to live, but we must understand that the same Bible that teaches us to love our enemies also teaches that God has told His people to go to war on many occasions.
God and War

Joshua 5:1  So it was, when all the kings of the Amorites who were on the west side of the Jordan, and all the kings of the Canaanites who were by the sea, heard that the LORD had dried up the waters of the Jordan from before the children of Israel until we had crossed over, that their heart melted; and there was no spirit in them any longer because of the children of Israel.

These foreign kings were scared to death of Israel and for good reason.

Joshua 6:1-2  Now Jericho was securely shut up because of the children of Israel; none went out, and none came in. 2 And the LORD said to Joshua: "See! I have given Jericho into your hand, its king, and the mighty men of valor.

God told Joshua to attack the city of Jericho and destroy it.

Joshua 6:20-21  So the people shouted when the priests blew the trumpets. And it happened when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat. Then the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city. 21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, ox and sheep and donkey, with the edge of the sword.

What did the people of Jericho do to the Israelites? Nothing! Nothing at all. They killed them all because God told them to. God had His reasons. In reading these scriptures would you get the idea that God is against war? Not hardly!

Joshua 8:1-2 Now the LORD said to Joshua: "Do not be afraid, nor be dismayed; take all the people of war with you, and arise, go up to Ai. See, I have given into your hand the king of Ai, his people, his city, and his land. 2 "And you shall do to Ai and its king as you did to Jericho and its king. Only its spoil and its cattle you shall take as booty for yourselves. Lay an ambush for the city behind it."

Joshua 8:25-29 So it was that all who fell that day, both men and women, were twelve thousand; all the people of Ai. 26 For Joshua did not draw back his hand, with which he stretched out the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai. 27 Only the livestock and the spoil of that city Israel took as booty for themselves, according to the word of the LORD which He had commanded Joshua. 28 So Joshua burned Ai and made it a heap forever, a desolation to this day. 29 And the king of Ai he hanged on a tree until evening. And as soon as the sun was down, Joshua commanded that they should take his corpse down from the tree, cast it at the entrance of the gate of the city, and raise over it a great heap of stones that remains to this day.

Israel, God's people, were involved in war after war:

Joshua 11:19-20 There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, except the Hivites, the inhabitants of Gibeon. All the others they took in battle. 20 For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, and that they might receive no mercy, but that He might destroy them, as the LORD had commanded Moses.

These verses tells us that God hardened the hearts of these people so they would go to war with Israel, because He wanted to destroy them. In going to war, Israel was carrying out the will of God.

2 Samuel 5:18-25 The Philistines also went and deployed themselves in the Valley of Rephaim. 19 So David inquired of the LORD, saying, "Shall I go up against the Philistines? Will You deliver them into my hand?" And the LORD said to David, "Go up, for I will doubtless deliver the Philistines into your hand." 20 So David went to Baal Perazim, and David defeated them there; and he said, "The LORD has broken through my enemies before me, like a breakthrough of water." Therefore he called the name of that place Baal Perazim. 21 And they left their images there, and David and his men carried them away. 22 Then the Philistines went up once again and deployed themselves in the Valley of Rephaim. 23 Therefore David inquired of the LORD, and He said, "You shall not go up; circle around behind them, and come upon them in front of the mulberry trees. 24 "And it shall be, when you hear the sound of marching in the tops of the mulberry trees, then you shall advance quickly. For then the LORD will go out before you to strike the camp of the Philistines." 25 And David did so, as the LORD commanded him; and he drove back the Philistines from Geba as far as Gezer.  

Notice here that David asks God if he should go to war, and God tells him to go and guaranties his victory. Notice also that God even gives David a battle strategy.

Believers, God told David to go to war.

I rest my case........
DW

[Bronzesnake]

Bronzsnake:

what does "your guy lost" mean?

I don't understand that.  Jesus hasn't lost has he?  God hasn't lost has he?

Shouldn't we all be advocating for peace, rather than justifying war?

Ooooooh, I hope I didn't just break a rule by advocating for peace.

 Ya...I was referring to Jesus. Very clever response my friend.

 Of course we should be advocating for peace. Perhaps you should e-mail the terrorists and state your position. Be sure to give them your name and address in case they should like to sit down in person over a steaming cup of tea and some nice muffins. I'm convinced that you could talk sense into their heads, I mean they are reasonable people...right?

 By the way, we aren't trying to justify this war...it's a just war, unless you happen to be in the middle of beheading an innocent civilian.

Bronzesnake

[Bronzesnake]

Thank you for the history lesson of regarding the misgivings of Saddam.  In giving it though, I think you fell into the group to which I was reffering.  At no time did I say that I supported the actions of the Husein regime.

 


 What do you think was the motivation for Saddam to comply with the U.N. Security Council starting twelve years prior to this war? What did the U.N. Security Council use as a threat to try and get Saddam to comply?
 What's that you say? Oh, they threatened him with war...how long was Saddam in non-compliance?...pardon me, I didn't hear...oh, twelve years!

 I wonder why Saddam was so bold in the face of the threat of war, what with so many people making such scathing statements as..."At no time did I say that I supported the actions of the Husein regime."

 Saddam must have been terrified when he heard rumblings such as... "We've had enough! This calls for...more discussion!"
 Who's being hypocritical here my friend?


 

It seems to be a pretty typical republican reaction to, at this stage of the game, comment on all of the horrors committed in Iraq.

 

 Have you been living in a cave for fourteen years?

This I fear is not because anyone in the U.S. administration cares about the Kurds, but because they are now gropping for new reasoning, having found no WMD's.

 

 The weapons were there, otherwise please explain why Saddam would allow himself to be attacked and hunted down like a dog. All he had to do was show full disclosure, and he would still be in power today. Does this really make sense to you??? Do you honestly expect any intelligent human being to believe Saddam gambled his country, his sons,  his power and freedom on a bluff??? HELLO? ANYONE HOME?

It is true that Saddam has used such wepons in the past, but they were provided to him by the American government.

 Yes, the Americans did supply some weapons to Saddam in order to keep what was a far greater threat at the time at bay. Where did the weapons go? You don't seem to know that the Russians, French and Germans sold many, many more weapons to Iraq than did America. In any case, Saddam was being pretty much left alone until he went nuts and attacked Kuwait.

  I also found your use of the U.N. argument to be contrary to many on your other posts.  It seems that you would act in defyance of the U.N. given any opportunity, yet you hold Saddam to a higher standard of global citezenship.

 

 Please point out any such contradictions.

 As for the rest of that statement, it's ludicrous. The U.N. Security Council was unanimous in their assertion that Saddam did indeed have W.M.D. and the threat of war was clearly stated and sanctioned. The problem was that when it came time to back up the threat (after twelve years of non compliance) certain dictatorial Arab regimes together with Russia, France and Germany (all three were found out to be skimming billions off the oil for food and medicine) suddenly backed out.


 

Make no mistake, the war in Iraq is not about saving the lives of the noble Iraqi, it is not about freedom, it does not make you any safer, and it is certainly not condoned by any God that I know.  Of course, you are free and welcome to disagree, just don't tell me that I hold the opinions I do, because  I'm uninformed.

 


 No, it's not specifically about saving the Iraqi people, but that is part of the justification. It is about freedom, and it certainly does make us safer. Afghanistan just held democratic elections and elected their first democratically elected president - which scenario do you think makes the rest of the region, and the world safer - Afghanistan pre-war under Taliban rule, and infested with terrorist training camps, or now? be honest. Iraq will hold their democratic elections in January. There will be two democratic countries as of January 2005, where once there were two American hating dictatorships. It is highly disingenuous for you, or anyone to say..."it certainly doesn't make us safer"

As per the comments by our noble moderator, I find it odd that I would be called a troll, or have it implied that my views on this particular issue are unwelcome in some way.  I was not aware that being a good Christian meant automatic support for the War in Iraq. I hold my views on this matter because I beleive that killing innocent people is wrong, particularily when the reason behind their deaths is so ambiguous.

 I believe the moderator was referring to the person who started this topic with "Why don't we call for the president to stop killing IRAQI babies?"

 Look, killing innocent people is wrong, no sane person would argue that. Innocent people get killed in wartime, it's a very sad and troubling fact of war. We wish we didn't have to go to war - the Americans and allies do not purposefully attack innocent people - the enemy does. That is why we are at war. The fact of the matter is that if we just sat back and did nothing after 911 - if we attempted to negotiate with the terrorists, we would be scraping up our loved ones from the streets of America today. These "people" do not care about peace, they do not want to negotiate. Don't you get it? They want to take over the Middle East - seize the oil - use the riches from oil to build nuclear and bio weaponry so they can black-mail the rest of the world and set up their fanatical Islamic dictatorial regimes. WAKE UP! STOP BLAMING YOUR OWN COUNTRY FOR DEFENDING YOUR LIVES - AMERICA IS NOT EVIL, THE TERRORISTS ARE EVIL! HELLO AGAIN...ANYONE HOME?!! Do you not realize the terrorists who would hack off your loved ones heads, love it when they hear people condemning America? They laugh loudest when Americans condemn America.
 You've convinced yourselves that Iraq was just an innocent country attacked for no good reason. Think about why Saddam would allow this to happen, when all he had to do was say "OK, I was bluffing...I had weapons, but I don't anymore and here's where they went" He was told that he could keep power if he did this small thing, and yet he did not, and at what cost? Why would he do such a thing? Please answer that.

Bronzesnake

[nChrist]

Brothers and Sisters,

I must stand corrected about there being trolls with us.

They Are Twits!

That would be several levels below a beginning troll in terms of skill and intelligence.

These twits are acting like Christians, but they are not even close - RATHER THE OPPOSITE!

Please stay tuned for a:

Magic Act!

Mass Twit Disappearance!

Thanks for your patience while I gathered the proper information.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Shammu]

Brothers and Sisters,

I must stand corrected about there being trolls with us.

They Are Twits!

That would be several levels below a beginning troll in terms of skill and intelligence.

These twits are acting like Christians, but they are not even close - RATHER THE OPPOSITE!

Please stay tuned for a:

Magic Act!

Mass Twit Disappearance!

Thanks for your patience while I gathered the proper information.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Saved_4ever]

It's always saddening to me to see how missinformed some people are.  The numbers given of "civilian" deaths is pretty inacurrate.  I've seen some people claiming as much as 200,000 or more and this was last year.  Now it's back down to 100,000.  It's also intersting to see how uber pacifists claim US soldiers are killing babies even when it was a suicide bombing that killed them.  The argument is that it is our fault for being there.  I REALLY love the mentions of this being a war for oil and monetary gain.  I must have missed were all that money is coming from.  Oh yeah were is all that cheap oil.  

I also enjoy   people who think the pope the dali lama etc are the most intelligent people on earth.  Yes, those opposed to Christ are most deffinately the most intelligent poeple on earth.  

[Brother Love]

It's always saddening to me to see how missinformed some people are.  The numbers given of "civilian" deaths is pretty inacurrate.  I've seen some people claiming as much as 200,000 or more and this was last year.  Now it's back down to 100,000.  It's also intersting to see how uber pacifists claim US soldiers are killing babies even when it was a suicide bombing that killed them.  The argument is that it is our fault for being there.  I REALLY love the mentions of this being a war for oil and monetary gain.  I must have missed were all that money is coming from.  Oh yeah were is all that cheap oil.  

I also enjoy   people who think the pope the dali lama etc are the most intelligent people on earth.  Yes, those opposed to Christ are most deffinately the most intelligent poeple on earth.  

"TWO"Thumbs Up, I agree Bro


<))><

[thomas2004]

As a general point of oreder, I should be understood that the Dali Lama does not oppose Christ.  I don't imagine you've ever read any of his stuff, nor would I excpect you to, but most of his writing deals with the acceptability of many world religions.  Infact, he thinks that Christianity is pretty fantastic.   Is it against forum rules to say that he is a pretty neat guy?

[Saved_4ever]

Actually as a General point of order he is most assuredly opposed to Christ.  Why thomas2004 asks of this small minded fundy from philly?

Quite simply, because you are either for or against Jesus Christ.  There is no in between.  To be for the LORD one must have a saving faith in Jesus Christ and be washed in the blood of the Lamb.

You are opposed to the Christ even if you think, Jesus was a neat guy, or had some good things to say, or "have no problem" with Him.  If you do not believe in Jesus Christ as your personal LORD and Savior then you are opposed to Him.  That's the way it is.

There is no reincarnation and the whole concept of the dalai lama is a false religion.  This is a good example of that.

The Dalai Lamas are the manifestations of the Buddha of Compassion who chose to take rebirth for the purpose of serving other human beings. Dalai Lama means Ocean of Wisdom. Tibetans normally refer to His Holiness as Yeshe Norbu, the Wish-fulfilling Gem or simply Kundun, meaning The Presence.

This is completely contrary to scripture and thus, the LORD.

[Bronzesnake]

Actually as a General point of order he is most assuredly opposed to Christ.  Why thomas2004 asks of this small minded fundy from philly?

Quite simply, because you are either for or against Jesus Christ.  There is no in between.  To be for the LORD one must have a saving faith in Jesus Christ and be washed in the blood of the Lamb.

You are opposed to the Christ even if you think, Jesus was a neat guy, or had some good things to say, or "have no problem" with Him.  If you do not believe in Jesus Christ as your personal LORD and Savior then you are opposed to Him.  That's the way it is.

There is no reincarnation and the whole concept of the dalai lama is a false religion.  This is a good example of that.

The Dalai Lamas are the manifestations of the Buddha of Compassion who chose to take rebirth for the purpose of serving other human beings. Dalai Lama means Ocean of Wisdom. Tibetans normally refer to His Holiness as Yeshe Norbu, the Wish-fulfilling Gem or simply Kundun, meaning The Presence.

This is completely contrary to scripture and thus, the LORD.

 Nice work!

 How often do we hear "christians" say such foolish things as ... "most of his writing deals with the acceptability of many world religions." in a context which insinuates that as long as we believe in "anything religious" we will get to Heaven. Those who do not believe in Jesus will not go to Heaven - those who would have us believe in any other "god" are going to Hell. This is not my "belief" it comes straight from Jesus Christ. So if you don't like it, take it up with Him.

 Bronzesnake

[felix102]

Amen bronzesnake. Good job on rebuking the twits.  

[nChrist]

Brothers and Sisters,

We've been talking to a group of trolls who pre-planned to come here, act like Christians, stir things up, and go back to a larger mob to share their Christian hunting exploits.

We were a subject of much laughter, mocking, and labeling with various terms of cursing and filth. The game was to act like Christians, push our buttons, play with us, and report back to a larger mob.

11 have been banned - 9 or more belonging to the same mob. The mob probably numbers over 200.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[darwinatridge]

Brothers and Sister,
Lets not degrade to the point that Satan is using us to turn on one another. We've seen enough degrading going on over the last several months. This forum is about expressing our views and it is clear that we all have our own viewpoints. I went to bed last night after reading a posting from xjesusrocksx in which he expressed some very hard words. He is certainly entitled to his viewpoint. That was what this election was all about. Although many of us disagree with him, he is certainly entitled to express his views as long as they do not become vulgar. I believe that as Christians we all need to take a stand against the evil that is happening in the world. To me it is just as appalling to turn your back on those that commit such atrocities as it is to commit these atrocities. We have the right to debate these issues but not the right to allow Satan to use these issues for his purpose. I believe that the UN is an organization that Satan has been using to advance his purpose and there is more than enough evidence to prove that. And I believe that America is no longer the Christian nation that it claims to be. But I also believe that whether this nation wants to claim God as it's god or not, God will use this nation to accomplish His purpose. God is the one in control and He will work things out. We are to be His tools to not only spread His word but to also take a stand against evil. Does this mean that the world is going to just fall in line behind us? No it does not. Satan will continue to us to world to separate us from God as much as he can. I applaud those that will stand up against this evil. I also pray for those that will not. Jesus said in the Book of Revelations that there would be no fence walkers in the end times. And we a rapidly approaching His return. Jesus also said in the Book of Matthew that there would be wars and rumors of wars. What is going on is no surprise to Him. I know that He is crying over the loss of life that is happening. But I also know that He cries when we turn our backs on any atrocity. We are all passionate about our beliefs. And Satan is just as passionate in his belief that he does not want God to win this war for our souls. Much of the world has sided with him. He will attempt to destroy the world by turning it against its self. It is very unfortunate that much of the world has made the choice to follow him instead of excepting Gods plan for our salvation. But the harsh reality is that most will reject Gods plan. This does not mean that we are to give up fighting for what is right. Sometimes this means we are to pray. And unfortunately sometimes this means that we are to stand up against such tyrants as Hussein.

[Jemidon2004]

Heylo. Just wanted to throw my two cents in again about the troll situation. There were a few on here that i'd suspected as being trolls, but i just pray for them. and Tom...i have something i want to discuss with you in PM or E-mail sometime man...about the other name you called the trolls. I say go get them, but do so in prayer if you havn't already. lol. you said we were the subject of laughter and mockery. Let them continue to laugh at us, for their reward is here on earth, ours is in Heaven. Let's count it as a blessing because even if they are laughing at us and mocking us...they won't mock God, and if they have even read 1% of the threads on this site, they will not stand unaccountable in front of God Almighty. So we've done our job. The Gospel has and will continue to be presented on this site, and those who read it will be held responsible for their actions. and they will be without excuse. So as for the trolls. Go git them, but count it as a blessing that they did that to us. We'll continue on in the Spirit of God and continue to discuss Christian matters and doctrine. I'm done with my two cents for now. And for the trolls...those that are still here...you will be held accountable for your actions. You will not have an excuse and you will stand before the Almighty. So the question I pose is this: Eternity? Smoking or non? God Bless

In His Service,
Joshua

[nChrist]

Amen Darwinatridge,

Brother, that was an excellent and timely post. As Christians, we should expect to be attacked with greater frequency and intensity. If this is the end times, and I think it is, Christians will most certainly become objects to curse and mock. Eventually, Christians will also be physically attacked or worse. Only God knows how bad things will get before Jesus comes to take us home.

I simply pray that God gives us strength to stand up and keep doing His work until His appointed time.

Love In Christ,
Tom