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Our Lord Jesus Christ loves you.
277963 Posts in 26514 Topics by 3790 Members
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| | |-+  Am I Going to Heaven ?
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Poll
Question: Pick from the list below what you think is necessary to get you to heaven.
 Obeying God's law and commandments - 28 (52.8%)
Doing your best - 7 (13.2%)
Living a good life - 2 (3.8%)
Good works - 3 (5.7%)
Tithing, or giving money to the church - 1 (1.9%)
Church membership or attendance - 1 (1.9%)
Water baptism - 7 (13.2%)
Holy communion - 4 (7.5%)
Total Voters: 43

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 33 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Am I Going to Heaven ?  (Read 71700 times)
Saved_4ever
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« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2003, 02:46:59 AM »

Quote
After looking through a book tomight by an evangelical author, I have become more convinced that you, Ambassador, believe, contrary to teh Scriptures, that works play absolutely no role in our salvation.

You would be right to believe that, as it is correct.  Works play no part in our salvation.  They show proof of our salvation to MEN but they in no way, do anything FOR our salvation.  If you think they do, then you contridict yourself in saying that salvation is a free gift of God.  James does not EVER say that works save us as so many unfortunate people misread.

God bless,
Jason
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Brother Love
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« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2003, 04:35:08 AM »

Quote
After looking through a book tomight by an evangelical author, I have become more convinced that you, Ambassador, believe, contrary to teh Scriptures, that works play absolutely no role in our salvation.

You would be right to believe that, as it is correct.  Works play no part in our salvation.  They show proof of our salvation to MEN but they in no way, do anything FOR our salvation.  If you think they do, then you contridict yourself in saying that salvation is a free gift of God.  James does not EVER say that works save us as so many unfortunate people misread.

God bless,
Jason

Amen Brother

Brother Love Smiley
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THINGS THAT DIFFER By C.R. Stam
Read it on line for "FREE"

http://www.geocities.com/protestantscot/ttd/ttd_chap1.html

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Allinall
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« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2003, 06:03:33 AM »

Quote
You know, I don't disagree with you very much ehre, Ambassador. I just think your emphasis is screwed up and your understanding of salvation is  a bit distorted. But on the "essential" issues here, I doin't think I disagree with you. Salvation is free, we don't earn it. however, your udnerstanding that RIGHTEOUSNESS is a free gift is wrong. We must BE righteous. Not merely LOOK righteous.  Christs did NOT take Goid's wrath on Himself. God is loving. He does not seek to punish us purely for the sake of punishing us. This retributive udnerstanding of salvation is wrong. God wasn't angry and Christ stepped in and intercepted the blow meant for us.  We were dead, and Christ restores us to life.

A little clarification here if I may.  We are]/i] righteous, not by our own works, but by the salvific work of Christ in our lives.  We are righteous because we have been washed in His blood.  Justified.  As for God not pouring out His wrath on Christ for our sake...

Quote

Isaiah 53

Who has believed what they heard from us?
   And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
For he grew up before him like a young plant,
   and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or majesty that we should look at him,
   and no beauty that we should desire him.
He was despised and rejected by men;
   a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
and as one from whom men hide their faces
   he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Surely he has borne our griefs
   and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
   smitten by God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions;
   he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
   and with his stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
   we have turned every one to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
   the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
   yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
   and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
   so he opened not his mouth.
By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
   and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
   stricken for the transgression of my people?
And they made his grave with the wicked
   and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
   and there was no deceit in his mouth.
Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him;
   he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for sin,
   he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
   make many to be accounted righteous,
   and he shall bear their iniquities.
Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,
   and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,
because he poured out his soul to death
   and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
   and makes intercession for the transgressors.

My friend, it is for the very reason that God is loving that Christ took our place in facing God's wrath.  God punishes sinners.  God had wrath for man and his sin.  Christ was wounded and crushed for our sins.  Retributive?  No.  Judgmental?  Yes.  Sin has a price.  Christ paid that price, and to say that God loves and wouldn't punish for the sake of punishing would be to call God anything but holy.  As a holy God, He is longsuffering, merciful and kind.  But as a holy God He is just, righteous and it is, my friend, a "fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God."  While I agree with you on some things, I think that your view of the price your salvation cost is lacking.   Smiley

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"that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death"
Allinall
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« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2003, 06:07:23 AM »

I also think I need to pay attention to how I use these [] thingies... Tongue
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"that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death"
Brother Love
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« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2003, 06:32:00 AM »

Quote
You know, I don't disagree with you very much ehre, Ambassador. I just think your emphasis is screwed up and your understanding of salvation is  a bit distorted. But on the "essential" issues here, I doin't think I disagree with you. Salvation is free, we don't earn it. however, your udnerstanding that RIGHTEOUSNESS is a free gift is wrong. We must BE righteous. Not merely LOOK righteous.  Christs did NOT take Goid's wrath on Himself. God is loving. He does not seek to punish us purely for the sake of punishing us. This retributive udnerstanding of salvation is wrong. God wasn't angry and Christ stepped in and intercepted the blow meant for us.  We were dead, and Christ restores us to life.

A little clarification here if I may.  We are]/i] righteous, not by our own works, but by the salvific work of Christ in our lives.  We are righteous because we have been washed in His blood.  Justified.  As for God not pouring out His wrath on Christ for our sake...

Quote

Isaiah 53

Who has believed what they heard from us?
   And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
For he grew up before him like a young plant,
   and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or majesty that we should look at him,
   and no beauty that we should desire him.
He was despised and rejected by men;
   a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
and as one from whom men hide their faces
   he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Surely he has borne our griefs
   and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
   smitten by God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions;
   he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
   and with his stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
   we have turned every one to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
   the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
   yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
   and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
   so he opened not his mouth.
By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
   and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
   stricken for the transgression of my people?
And they made his grave with the wicked
   and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
   and there was no deceit in his mouth.
Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him;
   he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for sin,
   he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
   make many to be accounted righteous,
   and he shall bear their iniquities.
Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,
   and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,
because he poured out his soul to death
   and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
   and makes intercession for the transgressors.

My friend, it is for the very reason that God is loving that Christ took our place in facing God's wrath.  God punishes sinners.  God had wrath for man and his sin.  Christ was wounded and crushed for our sins.  Retributive?  No.  Judgmental?  Yes.  Sin has a price.  Christ paid that price, and to say that God loves and wouldn't punish for the sake of punishing would be to call God anything but holy.  As a holy God, He is longsuffering, merciful and kind.  But as a holy God He is just, righteous and it is, my friend, a "fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God."  While I agree with you on some things, I think that your view of the price your salvation cost is lacking.   Smiley



Amen and Amen

Brother Love Smiley
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THINGS THAT DIFFER By C.R. Stam
Read it on line for "FREE"

http://www.geocities.com/protestantscot/ttd/ttd_chap1.html

<Smiley))><
SonofAslan
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« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2003, 09:05:20 AM »

Saved,

If you, in fact believe what you wrote, i.e. that works play no part in our salvation,  then I would like to see you explain why we can't be forgiven unless we forgive others (Matt 6)? Why the sheep were told to enter into God's kingdom based on their works (Matt 25)? Why James says we are justified by our works (James 2)? Why Jesus told the rich young ruler that if he wanted to eb saved he had to obey the commandments and why afterwards he told this same man taht to be perfect he would have to sell all he had and give to the poor (Matt 19)? Why Jesus says obedience is necessary for CXhrist to make His home in us (John 14)? And loads more.

If your intention is to make a distinction between justification and salvation, you will be making a false and unbiblical distinction.

As for me contradicting myself, no, that would not be the case. That it is gift doesn't mean we don't have to do anything to appropriate it. Unless you believe God picks and chooses arbitrarily who will and who will not be saved? To say salvation is a gift simply means we neither earn nor deserve it. It does NOT mean we don't do anything to attain it.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2003, 09:15:26 AM by SonofAslan » Logged
SonofAslan
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« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2003, 12:39:36 PM »

Just for clarification, your claim that works play no role in our salvation contradicts Scripture, and I will show how your claim that james says no where that we are saved by works in false.

What james says is that we are justified by our works and not by faith alone. I'm assuming you are going to attempt to make a distinction between salvation and justification. This is a false distinction, and it is easy to demonstrate.

There is no one who is saved who is not justifed, and there is no one who is justified who is not also saved. There is no one who is not saved who is justified, and there is no one who is not justified who is saved. To be justified is to be saved, and vice versa.  So it is clear that justification plays not only a role but a crucial role in our salvation. If this is so, since works play a crucial role in our justification (as James plainly states), they must also necessarily play a role in our salvation.

Your claim to the contrary contradicts Scripture, James as well as all the other passages I cited.
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« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2003, 01:43:27 PM »

It's a day bye day responsibility to Christians to be
in total dependence to God! If you are not enjoying your Christianity more than you did when you were saved something is wrong! Are you trying to live under a yoke of bondage? Let us keep in mind what Paul was trying to teach the Galatians in chapter three! For he said in chapter two verse sixteen Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith of Jesus Christ even we have believed in Jesus Christ that we might be justified by faith of Christ and not by the works of the law: for bye the works of the law shall no flesh be justified
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Are You GOING TO HEAVEN?

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Galatians 4:16   Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
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« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2003, 02:14:54 PM »

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's WORK shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's WORK of what sort it is. If any man's WORK abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's WORK shall be BURNED, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED: yet so as by fire"2 (I Cor. 3:11-15).

 Grin
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SonofAslan
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« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2003, 03:00:18 PM »

Ambassador, would you please just answer the question I asked?

I'm not interested in "enjoying my Christianity". And if you are, then I would respectfully suggest that your focus is selfish and egocentric.

Please deal with the Scriptures I have cited.

Why does Jesus tell us that we can't be forigiven if we don't forgive?

Why does James tell us we are justified by works?

Why does Jesus  again tell us the criterai for entering the Kingdom is whether we have fed the hungry, clothed the naked, visited those in prison?

Why does Jesus tell us He will not abide in us if we are not obedient?

Why does Paul tell us if we willfully sin, there is no sacrfice for sins left?

Please, simply respond to these verses, and tell me how you deal with them. Why do you avoid this very simple very direct question?
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Petro
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« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2003, 04:21:03 PM »

SonofAslan,

Quote
Why does James tell us we are justified by works?

What work must one do to be justified?

I have asked many people this question and no one has been able to answer it.

I ask you, what work must you do to be justified by God.

And please don't tell me you must die a martyr, in some jihad.

Awaiting your response.

Petro
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« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2003, 04:22:08 PM »

I have quoted plenty of Scripture to answer your question. have you not read them?
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« Reply #42 on: June 26, 2003, 04:31:17 PM »

SonofAslan

No this is my first read on this thread, but if you will direct me to where you wrote the answer to such a question, I will gladly read it.

Ptero
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SonofAslan
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« Reply #43 on: June 26, 2003, 04:33:54 PM »

I just want one of you guys to tell me what you do with James and all these other passages. I have been posting these Scriptures for several  days now, and I'm getting frustrated. I will be MORE than happy to answer ANY question you have directly and simply Petro, but FIRST, I want ONE, just ONE, of you people who think we do nothing at all to tell me how you deal with all these Scriptures.


James says, and I quote, "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only."

I want to know how YOU reconcile this with your claims that we must do nothing at all. Then I will tell you what you must DO to be saved. (That was a hint,  btw.)



Whew......sorry about that.  Embarrassed
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SonofAslan
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« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2003, 04:36:01 PM »

Thank you, Petro.  Smiley

Let me go back a page or two to where I list them in more detail. The last post kind of assumed people had read the earlier post. I will quote them.
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