Am I Going to Heaven ?

[SonofAslan]

Matthew 6:15
But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.


Matthew 25:34-36
Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’

Hebrews 10:26
For if we willfully persist in sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

There's 3 passages. the first says we must forgive others. The second says we must love our fellow man. And the third says we must reject  sin.

But this can all be summed up as "believe, repent and be baptized".

[SonofAslan]

We can do none of these things without grace, but god has already bestowed His grace upon us. Now it is up to us to cooperate with this grace, and the more we cooperate, the more grace we receive.

Also to the list could be added Jesus' command to the rich young ruler  "obey the commandments".

But again, it can be summed up (even more briefly than I  did before) as love God and love your neighbor.

[Petro]

SonofAslan,

You are getting ahead of it all, here..

Grace produces Faith, and it is free, according oto Eph 2:8-9.

At what point then is a person justified?

The manner in which you asked the question;

Why does James tell us we are justified by works?

together with the others,

leads any reader to assume you know the answer, or that you are seeking for an answer you already know to be true.

This is why I asked you;

What work must one do to be justified?

I will be happy to answer your question, and will do so, in my next post, to you.

But please tell just answer the question I have asked, since no one, in over 300 times I have asked this question of Christians has anyone given me a response, And i only ask you so that after, I give you the biblical response to how we understand these scriptures, you won't say, I knew that.

The bible answers this question, specifically, and I will give you all the scriptures you need to know the truth concerning this matter.

In reading the account of the sheep and the goats superficially, it appears that the sheep were justified by their works, but the fact is when one studies this passage of scripture closely, there works were a result of the justification by faith, so that their work was not counted towards their justification, it was a result of them being justified.

In the vernacular, they were noble much the same way sheep are noble when compared to goats, because they were sheep and not goats.

Petro  

[Petro]

I just want one of you guys to tell me what you do with James and all these other passages. I have been posting these Scriptures for several  days now, and I'm getting frustrated. I will be MORE than happy to answer ANY question you have directly and simply Petro, but FIRST, I want ONE, just ONE, of you people who think we do nothing at all to tell me how you deal with all these Scriptures.


James says, and I quote, "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only."

I want to know how YOU reconcile this with your claims that we must do nothing at all. Then I will tell you what you must DO to be saved. (That was a hint,  btw.)



Whew......sorry about that.  

SonofAslan,

Forgive me, are you saying  "Believe, Repent, and be Baptized"

is the "work"??

posted by sonofaslan, above;

Petro, but FIRST, I want ONE, just ONE, of you people who think we do nothing at all to tell me how you deal with all these Scriptures

We deall with the scriptures the same way you should, by carefull study and consideration of what the Spirit teaches, concerning this matter;

Now, the subject here is;  "works" and "what work man performs necessary together with "faith" which causes God to justify a man.

Lets begin by posting the passage in scripturem at James 2, which deals with the question you have raised;

James 2
 10  For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11  For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12  So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13  For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath showed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
14  What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15  If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16  And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18  Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20  But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21  Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22  Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23  And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25  Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26  For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


Let me stop right here, hold your thoughts, my neighbor just came over and he has a problem, I will be back to you, ASAP.

Petro


My neighbors car won't start, he  needs a ride to work, he need to be at work within 1 hr, and with the traffic, we need to get on the road now I will get back to you, later.

Sorry, Petro

[SonofAslan]

I am interested in your response. I thought,  however,  I did just answer your question. If you don't think so, I will try again.

I don't think you will be able to maintain your position re: the sheeps and goats though. The passage is clear that they enter BECAUSE of the deeds.

[ollie]

Therefore. The answer to the question is:





















None of the above.

God knows who will receive His promise and He has revealed to man, the way, the truth, and the life, Jesus the Christ, King and Lord!

[ollie]

SonofAslan,

Why does James tell us we are justified by works?

What work must one do to be justified?

I have asked many people this question and no one has been able to answer it.

I ask you, what work must you do to be justified by God.

And please don't tell me you must die a martyr, in some jihad.

Awaiting your response.

Petro

 John 6:28.  Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
 29.  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Acts 2:11.  Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
 12.  And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
 13.  Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
 14.  But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
 15.  For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
 16.  But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
 17.  And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
 18.  And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
 19.  And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
 20.  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
 21.  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
 22.  Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
 23.  Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
 24.  Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
 25.  For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
 26.  Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
 27.  Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
 28.  Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
 29.  Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
 30.  Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
 31.  He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
 32.  This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
 33.  Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the Promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
 34.  For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
 35.  Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
 36.  Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
 37.  Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
 38.  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 39.  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
 40.  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
 41.  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
 42.  And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
 43.  And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
 44.  And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
 45.  And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
 46.  And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
 47.  Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.


James tells us we are not justified by faith alone but also by works. Justified in its use here means righteous. We are made righteous through faith that produces works of God. We are saved by faith but cannot be righteous with faith alone but a true faith will work at that faith and do the things,( works ), God has commanded us to do.



 James 2:14.  What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
 15.  If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
 16.  And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
 17.  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
 18.  Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
 19.  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
 20.  But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
 21.  Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
 22.  Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
 23.  And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
 24.  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
 25.  Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
 26.  For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[ollie]

SonofAslan,

Forgive me, are you saying  "Believe, Repent, and be Baptized"

is the "work"??

Isn't Peter saying it in Acts 2:11-47?

[Petro]

SonofAslan,

Forgive me, are you saying  "Believe, Repent, and be Baptized"

is the "work"??

Isn't Peter saying it in Acts 2:11-47?

Ollie,

Right, I am just asking if this is the work that he views as being the work necessary for salvation, since you are here, let me ask you;

How does this tie in with James 2, or Mat 25, since, since according to Peter, this is what needs to be done and it is given to understand that James is already speaking of one who claims to have the faith, which brought about what Peter states, must be done?

Mat 25, are altogether different works?  Wouldn't you say?


Blessings,  

Petro

[Petro]

 posted by Ollie as reply #59
James tells us we are not justified by faith alone but also by works. Justified in its use here means righteous. We are made righteous through faith that produces works of God. We are saved by faith but cannot be righteous with faith alone but a true faith will work at that faith and do the things,( works ), God has commanded us to do.

Ollie,

Your statement above,  contradicts scripture, and you have posted one of them.

Can you reconcile your thoughts on the subject.

To the question; posed to Jesus by this man; at vs 28;

What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?


They asked; What work can we perform, that we might work the works of God??  Note what led up to this question, verses 26-27.

Jhn 6
29  This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The other verse is;

Rom 4
6  Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7  Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8  Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

[Petro]

Sonof Aslan,

I tried posting this earlier, but lost my server.

Concerning your last comment, about the deeds of the sheep.

Don't count your chickens, yet.  I would suggest you read Mat 25:31-46, because, we will look at it next, after concluding these points.


Lets deal with the hard passages, which you, place faith in, which are an obstruction to you in dealing with James 2, the faith works passage.

The points we both agree, on so far in order for anyone to be saved is that they, whosoever, they be; are these two points;  the third point you have raised, may or may not bring us together, it depends on what you recognize which baptism is the real thing.

Unfortunately, I find that I have to deal with baptism this way, in order to come to agreement with people since there are different teafchings and understandings, concerning baptism.

1. All must BELIEVE -  of course this begs the question what is it, they must believe??

The answer to this is found in scripture and it is a process which begins with first simply trusting the word of God, which can only come after having heard the word of truth, the Gospel of your salvation,  one must trust the word of God to be true, before one can believe it. The process leading up to saving Faith is given to us in (Eph 1:13). It ends with the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, or as it is stated therein, "sealed with the Spirit of Promise"

In your opinion, or from your own personal studies;  

What is it, you must believe??  

Many people will say imediately when asked this question, believe in Jesus.  The question is, Beleive,  What about Jesus??  This is what one must believe in the end, but at the beginning of the process, one must believe Gods word to be the truth , hear what Jesus said: (Jhn 7:16-19, 14:6)

What does the Gospel teach??  If not, the Gospel according to the Apostle Paul;

1 Cor 15
15:1  Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2  By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4  And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

The main thrust of the Gospel is that Jesus died for the sins of sinners..that He shed His blood in the place of His people for the remission of Sin (Mt 1:21)

In order to make this a personal Gosple, one must understand and acknowledge and believe, one is a sinner, condemned to perish in Hell fire.   He died for MY sins, that I might not perish.

2. Second point, REPENT -   The person that understands and believes he is a sinner, and that Jesus shed his blood for sinner then must wrestle with the teaching of the word of truth, that unless one repents from sin, (and  by the way, this is the sin of unbelief) he cannot have his sins forgiven, this is the reality of the Gosple, one must act on light shed on ones understanding by the Gosple.

3. All must Be BAPTIZED - superficially, many take baptism to mean "water baptism";  I don't know where you are on this, but, I will tell you the scriptures speak of  One Baptism that matters, yet two types are mentioned, one of them is water baptism, (I had been going around in circles with a couple of individuals on this forum, who, claimed Baptism was necessary for Salvation (water immerssion)  giving the impression, that without water Baptism, it was impossible to be saved, and as I presseed the matter with them, they, conceded that water

Baptism was not what saved, but was necessary, since it was an ordinance instituted by the Lord Himself. I won't argue this point at all, but there are those who, take this to mean, and emphacise that unless one gets himself water baptized, he cannot be saved, and they even emphacise infant baptism, after having quoted Mk 16:16; in spite of the fact, infants are incapable of believing anything, because  of their age.

John the Baptist was ordained of God to Baptize in water , so that Jesus might be made manifest to the nation of Israel (Jhn 1:33) and by his own testimony He said God, said unto him, "Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost." (Jhn 1:33) , this was the reason, he came baptizing with water,

The Scripture says it was a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.  (Mk 1:4), and Jesus said His blood was the blood of the New Covenant shed for the remission of Sins.  (Mt 26:28)

Jesus, in;

Mk 16,   states emphatically;
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.[/.color]

Please Note,  the emphasis on the word "believe";  

Is it possile to be baptized in water and not believe??  And yet believe one is a Christian.?,

just because he was baptized in water, and belongs to a church or some organization.

I am speaking of the type of belief needed to become saved, not just believing in what one has done..

I know this has been long and tedious, but the ground work must be laid, in order to comprehend what comes next.

Tell me where you disagree, with what I have said, so far??

Blessings,  
Petro



   

[SonofAslan]

Petro, no worries. I was away from the computer all this time anyway, so I didn't get interrupted by your interruptions one bit.

In my opinion, you misunderstand what "believe" means in Scripture. Notice Scripture never say we are supposed to believe something about something else. It always says we are supposed to believe IN someone. That someone is Christ. What do we have to believe?  No propositions. This is a tragedy of our post-Cartesian world that knowledge has come to mean factual knowledge of certain propositional truths. This was never what knowledge meant in Scripture. This is why the union of man and wife in sex is called "knowing". Isaac "knew" Rebekah. Knowing is an intimate relationship with someone. And believing in Christ means having that relationship with Him. And that's what we must "believe". We must come into an intimate relationship with Christ.

I have a lot more to respond to given your prolific activity during my absence, so bear with me please.

That's the first point, i.e. believe. And it is a belief, i.e. faith, which works. A faith which simply says, "Oh I believe that to be true" is nothing. It is dead. It saves no one. Faith must act. It must work. Otherwise... blech.

Second point, i.e. repent. I disagree with you on one minor, I believe, point. It is not the sin of unbelief we must repent of. It is ALL sin. As Scripture further says, whoever breaks one command is guilty of breaking all of it (I don't remember where it says that, but it's there). We must turn away from ALL sin in order to attain salvation. (I will have more on this later, as it is only grace that allows us to fully do this.)

Third point, baptism. Here is where sacramental understandings come in to play. It really is a tragedy that our post-Cartesian world has turned away from traditional metaphysical understandings. It is no coincidence, in my opinion, that Protestantism, with its great errors, is roughly contemporaneous with Descartes and his ultimate destruction of metaphysics. The greatest loss to come out of this is a loss of sacramental mentality. Baptism is a sacrament. What does that mean? It means the form can't be separated from the underlying reality. It means the infinite touches the finite. The infinite unites itself to the finite. This is why the sacraments are called mysteries. Because how can the infinite unite with the finite? How can that which transcends all reality become immanent in created reality? How can God become man? The Incarnation is the foundation for all sacraments. Now baptism is a sacrament. This means that the infinite reality, the bestowing of grace on man, the participation of man in the death and resurrection of Christ, become a reality through the finite reality of going under water. The reality of the sacrament cannot be separated from its form in the water. Now this doesn't necessarily have to be immersion, but it does require water. One can say it’s symbolic, but this is only true if one understands a symbol to carry the reality of that which it symbolizes within it. If by symbol one simply means that it merely represents some other reality, then that is false. Symbols are in a very real sense, that which they symbolize. Can someone be saved without being baptized? In exceptional circumstances, sure. God can do what he wants. But that is not the normal means by which the Holy Spirit enters the life of a believer. It is an exceptional case. Just as the thief on the cross is an exceptional case. Your understanding of two types of baptism is false, because it separates something that Scripture doesn’t separate. Scripture talks about the ultimate reality behind the physical manifestation of that reality, but it doesn’t separate out separate kinds of baptism. And yes, I know the Acts verses where the disciples said they only received the baptism of John. But that’s not conclusive one way or the other. Were they baptized by John, prior to Christ? Who knows? At Pentecost, the ultimate reality of the Holy Spirit transformed the physical reality of baptism, because that’s what baptism does, it is where the Holy Spirit comes upon the believer. This wasn’t possible before the Holy Spirit had been sent, and this is what happened at Pentecost. That there is only one baptism is explicitly stated by Paul in Ephesians 4:5. And I’ve seen your interpretation of 1 Peter 3:21. It is wrong. The Baptism Peter is talking about is baptism in water. That’s why he says “not the removing of dirt from the body”. It is not that water washes away physical dirt that baptism saves us, but rather because it restores our conscience. This is also what Paul talks about when he says we are baptized into Christ death and raised with Him into life. This is all baptism in water, understood sacramentally.

Ok, one last thing. You stated to Ollie that the works of Matt 25 were different works. No. They are the same works. They are the works that arise from a living and obedient faith. It isn’t the specific acts that save us. We aren’t saved because we fed the hungry. We are saved because our living and obedient faith activated the grace bestowed on us by God for our salvation (more on that later too – probably on the other trhead).

[Brother Love]

"For I am PERSUADED, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD"4 (Rom. 8:38, 39).

Brother Love

[Brother Love]

"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be SAVED BY HIS LIFE" (Rom. 5:10).

Brother Love

[Brother Love]

"...Even so by the righteousness of one THE FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous" (Rom. 5:18-19).

Brother Love