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Question: IS Matthew, Mark,  Luke  and John in the New Testament
YES - 11 (68.8%)
NO - 4 (25%)
NOT SURE - 1 (6.3%)
MAYBE - 0 (0%)
SOME PARTS - 0 (0%)
Total Voters: 14

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Author Topic: IS Matthew Mark Luke and John in the New  (Read 16082 times)
Brother Love
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« Reply #45 on: September 17, 2004, 03:35:27 PM »

You are a Dispensationalist if you believe salvation is by grace completely apart from any works; if you believe the Nation Israel did not accept their Messiah; if you believe salvation is offered to Gentiles and Jews; if you believe it is all right to have some coins in your pocket, an extra pair of shoes, and another garment; and if you believe each man is to provide for his own household, instead of "all things common.

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BigD
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« Reply #46 on: September 18, 2004, 08:49:57 AM »

Part 1
BigD posted:
You are the one that has stared the classification of those who post on this board.  If you were not concerned then why do you single out those you think are hyper-dispensationalists?

Allin responds:
Because the Hyper-Dispensationalist viewpoint is what is being proported.  Whether you claim to be one or not is of no concern, hence "...I'm not concerned."  This viewpoint, as I stated, is unbiblical, and does nothing for this body of believers to continually have thrust in our faces.  The continual "thrusting" leads one to believe that the sole purpose for presenting this is arguementation for self gratification.  Again, pointless.

BigD replies
Please point out to  me where we have proported the Hyper-Dispensationalist viewpoint. The views that I posted are what I do believe the Bible teaches.
----------------------------------------------------

BigD posted:
Dispensationalism is just a manner/means by which one studies the Scriptures. It is not a religeous denomination.

I know of Baptist, Pentecostals and many independants that consider themselves dispensationalist. I have met many people that claimed that were not dispensationalists who will now say that they are "dispensationalists of a sort."

Allin all responded:
I understand exactly what Dispensationalism is, and consider myself a Dispensationalist.  I also understand what Hyper-Dispensationalism is and know it to be unbiblical.

BigD replies:
Again, point out what views that I have expressed that are Hyper-dispensational.
------------------------------------------------

BigD posted:
If you insist that you are not a dispenationalist , but do not belive that animal sacrifice for the atonement for sins is required for today, then you are a "dispensationalist of sorts". If you do not believe that circumcision is required today, then you are "dispensationalist of a sort." If you do not keep all the Sabbath Day (Saturday) Laws, as required under the Law, then you are a "dispensationalist of a sort."

Allinall responded:
I never claimed to not be a Dispensationalist.  I claimed the viewpoint of Hyper-Dispensationalism to be incorrect.  The points, all points of the Law were pictures of what Jesus would one day complete.  The salvific grace was found in believing God concerning them, not in the practice of them.

BigD preplies:
IMO, since the fall of man, in the Garden of Eden, God has ALWAYS shown grace by providing a means in which man could be saved. Throughout the history of man, salvation/justification was based upon man doing/believing, by FAITH, what God required at that point in time in human history.
----------------------------------------------------

BigD posted:
As a "dispensationalist", I believe that the attributes of God never change. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. However, I also believe that the manner in which God has dealt with mankind through the ages. I can't find where Adam and Eve were ever required to offer up animals for salvation/justification. God gave them a consience to live by to help them to now determine what was right or wrong.

Able was not saved/justified by building an Ark. He was saved/justified in bringing the offering that God required.

Noah was not saved/justified by counting the star in heaven. He and his faimily were saved by building an ark as God required.

Abram was not saved/justified offering Isaac as a sacrifice. He was saved/justified by just believing God when God told him to look up and count the stars in the heaven.

Abraham was not saved/juistified by keeping the CIVIL, MORAL and CEREMONIAL LAWS of Moses. He was saved/justified by offering his son Issac on an altar.

Allinall responds:
Wrong.  Abel, Noah, Abram, and every other individual in the history of earth were not saved by adhering to a commandment of God's.  If so, then we work our way into God's grace.  What kind of grace is that?  Certainly not the grace given us in the pages of God's word.  

Abel was saved, not by bringing the right sacrifice, but by the heart which brought it.  A heart that believed God.  

Noah was saved, not by building the ark God commanded him to build (physically saved from drowning, yes, spiritually no), but by believing God.  His actions proved his belief.  His actions didn't save him.  God did.

Abraham was saved, not by offering Isaac up, but because he BELIEVED GOD when He said Abraham would have a son through Sarah his wife.  And through each individual, another part of God's redemptive plan was seen.  Not changed.  Revealed.  

BigD replies:
As I have said above. Salvation/justification was ALWAYS by FAITH in what God required at that point in time of human history.
-------------------------------------------------------

BigD posted:
After the children of Israel were given the CIVIL, MORAL and CEREMONIAL LAWS of Moses, they were not saved/justified by putting their faith and trust in the Cross work (death, burial resurrection) of Christ, as members of "the Body of Christ", the Church do today.

Allinall responded:
They were saved by putting their faith in the coming Redeemer - The Law bared testimony throughout of Him.  Believers today are saved by putting their faith in The Redeemer come, His death, burial and resurrection.  Same plan.  Same God.  Same grace.  Levels of that revealed grace called Dispensations.

BigD replies:
SHOW ME from Scripture that the children of Israel were saved/justified by putting their faith in  the coming Redeemer. Chapter and verse PLEASE.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!
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BigD
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« Reply #47 on: September 18, 2004, 08:51:04 AM »

Part 2
BigD posted:
So, from the above, you should be able to see that God has dealt differently with mankind throughout human history, AND His attributes never changed. Also, it shows "progressive revelation" by God.

There are no set amount of dispensations that one can find in the Bible. Paul in Ephesians 2 mentions three (3) dispensations. In verses 11, 12 he mentions "TIMES PAST" when the Gentiles were uncircumcised and outside the commonwealth of of Israel.

In verses 14-18 he talks about the "BUT NOW" time when the "middle wall of partition" between the Jew and Gentile was broken down, and the formation of "the one new man", the Body of Christ.

In verse 7 he speaks of "THE AGES TO COME", which all look forward to.

MOST who study the Bible from a dispensational point of view agree pretty much that there are 7 MAJOR dispensations recorded in the Bible. The one big area of disagreement in the dispensational ranks is when did the "dispensation of grace" begin.

Allinall responds:
Yup.

BigD replies:
It's nice that we can  agree on something.
---------------------------------------------------

BigD posted:
The majority view amongst dispensationalis is the the Church, the Body of Christ, started at Pentecost in Acts 2.

Then there are the mid-Acts/Acts 9 dispies who believe that the dispensation of grace started after the stoning of Stephen and the raising up of the Apostle Paul. (That is my understanding from Scripture.)

Allinall responded:
Nope.  Personally, I believe Jesus started His church, but that's neither here nor there.  Grace started at the cross.

BigD replies:
Grace started in The Garden of Eden when man fell. The Chruch, the Body of Christ, Jew and Gentile on equal footing and without distinction, didn't start until AFTER God set the nation of  Isreal asided AFTER the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

BigD posted:
 If it is you wish not to study the Bible from a dispensational viewpoint, that is you previlage. However, I have a better understanding of the Bible when I study it in that manner.

Prior to studying in that manner, the Bible was a book of seemingly contradictions. But now instead of contradictions, I can see transitions from one dispensation to the other. Therefore it became my choice of study.

Allinall responds:
Agreed.  Just make sure that the beliefs of those you have no problem being likened too are truly biblical.  The belief of various salvific plans is simply not.  The Dispensations teach us that my friend.  

BigD replies:
Salvation/justification has ALWAYS been by FAITH. I have NEVER said otherwise. However, God required different requirements for individuals to demonstrate their FAITH. Able had to bring the required sacrifice by FAITH, Noah and to believe God and build an Ark by FAITH. Abram had to believe God and count the stars in heaven by FAITH. Abraham had to believe God and offer up his son by FAITH. I could keep going but this should give you the picture.
-----------------------------------------------------

BigD posted:
I was taught that ALL the Bible was written TO ME. But I now believe that is ALL written FOR ME but not ALL TO ME. Therefore I study the entire Bible.

Allinall responds:
Chapter and verse?  Because it was Paul who wrote to Timothy "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,"  and if I'm not mistaken...Timothy was a Greek.  

BigD replies:
Romans 15:4 "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."

Romans 15:8 "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the Circumcision, for the trtuth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers."

Matthew 15:24 Jesus said: "I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

We should be able to see that Jesus came to fulfill the promises made to the nation of Israel. The Jews rejected to One to fulfill them promises for them. Therefore, God set them aside and raised up the Apostle Paul, put the Jews in the same "set aside boat" that He placed the Gentiles in in Genesis 11 at the Tower of Babel. THEN God raised up the Apostle Paul to unsher in the dispensation of grace with Jew and Gentile on equal footing and without distinction. This "one new man" of Ephesians 2:14 is a "new creation", a member of the Body of Christ, the Chruch for today.

Prior to the setting aside of Israel, for a Gentile to serve the true and living God, that Gentile had to become a Jew (proselyte) and place themselves under the Law. Is that still true today?

-----------------------------------------------------
BigD posted:
I have learned that from the "LAWS OF MOSES" to the setting aside of Israel, salvation/justification was by doing the deeds/works of the LAW by FAITH. Those Laws were given by God to Moses for the children of Israel as their instructions in righteousness.

Allinall responds:
Then you've never learned the "LAWS OF MOSES."  The faith worked the deeds.  The deeds had no salvific grace.  Works minded salvation

BigD replies:
Read Ephesians 2:15 and Colossians 2:14.

----------------------------------------------------
BigD posted:
From the setting aside of Israel and the ushering in of the dispensation of grace, our salvation/justification is by FAITH ONLY in the Cross work of Christ. Our salvation is a "free gift" of God to all those will put their FAITH and trust in His Cross works, no deed/works of the Law required. The instructions in righteousness for members of "the Body of Christ" were given by God to the Apostle Paul. Paul is the Apostle to "the Body of Christ;" just as Moses was God's spokesperson to the children of Isreal.

Allinall responded:
Amen, and then no.  No on the following only the Apostle Paul viewpoint.  Again, we split hairs.  I argue this because it is presented time and again, not to the edifying of the body, but to the arguement of a portion.  It is wrong.  I can live with others believing it, but when it is repeatedly posted for the sake of argumentation, I will argue it.

BigD replies:
Then argue it from Scripture, and point out to me,FROM SCRIPTURE,my error. I am still in the learning mode. I welcome correction.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!
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Reba
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« Reply #48 on: September 23, 2004, 07:15:09 PM »

Reba:
I will answer your questions above when you answer the ones I asked you in my last post to you.

I will repeat them for you:
BigD replies:
 Tell me now, Were the children of Israel, in the OT and during the Gospels, saved by believing/doing  the Cross work of Christ, or doing the deeds and works of the Law by FAITH? Also, are we believers today saved by doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH, or by putting our FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ? Were Adam and Ever saved by doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH or putting their FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ? How about Noah, How was he saved, by doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH, or by putting his FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ? Lets not forget about Abram/Abraham. Was he saved by doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH, or by putting his FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ?

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!


Big D we are moving and i just got my computer set up i do plan on answering your questions.. I thought i left you a message saying i would get back to you but i cant find it  old lady dorkdom stricks again.......


I do NOT agree with you Big D but i want to say THANK YOU  for posting in such a way to make reading the posts simple.  Tongue
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BigD
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« Reply #49 on: September 24, 2004, 04:36:35 AM »

Reba:
I am looking forward to your response.

Moving is quite an ordeal. I've been married 50 years and have spend 23 years in the Army and moved 23 times during that time. Know what you are going through.

Since my retirement in 1976 I have not moved once. In fact, I am still living in the home I bought in 1973, even before I retired. Dread the next one. You can't believe the amount of "stuff" I have to get rid of.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.
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Reba
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« Reply #50 on: September 24, 2004, 04:46:31 PM »

Reba:
I will answer your questions above when you answer the ones I asked you in my last post to you.

I will repeat them for you:
BigD replies:
 Tell me now, Were the children of Israel, in the OT and during the Gospels, saved by believing/doing  the Cross work of Christ, or doing the deeds and works of the Law by FAITH? Also, are we believers today saved by doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH, or by putting our FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ? Were Adam and Ever saved by doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH or putting their FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ? How about Noah, How was he saved, by doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH, or by putting his FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ? Lets not forget about Abram/Abraham. Was he saved by doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH, or by putting his FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ?

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

I dont know if you are new here or a 'change of nickname' so i say to you i do not use words well i am NOT a writer i just sorta spit'em out.... I am not sure i understand your question questions that have answers supplied i am suspious of.. they read like a trap... Below are  messs of scriptures as to why i believe the OT people looked to the Cross as we also look to the Cross. There is one salvation that is Jesus Christ. You may not agree with my answer,  but i have answered. I would like to get back on the track as diversion is tactic i tend to scramble after.


Ps 20
20:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.

The LORD hear thee in the day of trouble; the name of the God of Jacob defend thee;

2 Send thee help from the sanctuary, and strengthen thee out of Zion;

3 Remember all thy offerings, and accept thy burnt sacrifice; Selah.

4 Grant thee according to thine own heart, and fulfil all thy counsel.

5 We will rejoice in thy salvation, and in the name of our God we will set up our banners: the LORD fulfil all thy petitions.

6 Now know I that the LORD saveth his anointed; he will hear him from his holy heaven with the saving strength of his right hand.

7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.

8 They are brought down and fallen: but we are risen, and stand upright.

9 Save, LORD: let the king hear us when we call.
KJV

Ps 18:2

2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.
KJV

Ps 18:46

46 The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted.
KJV

Ps 51:6-8

6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; t
KJV

Jer 3:23

23 Truly in vain is salvation hoped for from the hills, and from the multitude of mountains: truly in the LORD our God is the salvation of Israel.
KJV

Zech 9:9

9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

KJV Acts 4:10-12

10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved
KJV

Acts 26:22-23

22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
KJV

Deut 32:3-4

3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
KJV

1 Cor 10:4

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
KJV
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ollie
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« Reply #51 on: September 24, 2004, 06:46:30 PM »

 Ephesians 2:11. " Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
 12.  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
 13.  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
 14.  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
 15.  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man
, so making peace;

 16.  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
 17.  And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
 18.  For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
 19.  Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
 20.  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

 21.  In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
 22.  In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."


Is not Paul telling the Ephesian gentiles they are fellow citizens with the saints and of the household of God built upon the foundation laid by the prophets and the apostles with Jesus as the chief cornerstone? Is this not telling us the prophets of old led to Jesus with their prophecies? Indicating that the faithful before the law and under the law looked forward to Jesus Christ and His salvation.

These verses also indicate that the commonweallth of Israel and the gentiles are joint heirs to the promises given to those found in the OT. through Jesus Christ. Having been made one through Christ. The binding element being the blood of Jesus Christ and faith in/on Him.

In the Spirit of His Love,
ollie
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« Reply #52 on: September 24, 2004, 07:06:35 PM »

Amen Ollie & Reba! Great scripture references.

Here's another favorite of mine: Rev. 13:8 "All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

And another one showing that the same gospel we have was preached to the Israelites during the Exodus from Egypt: Heb. 4:2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them (the Israelites in the desert); but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it."

As for the poll for this thread, I would vote for "other" meaning that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John is part of the word, ONE word of God. And there has always been ONE gospel.

Blessings -

Chesed
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« Reply #53 on: September 24, 2004, 07:49:38 PM »

You have made my day BigD Smiley

Your teachings are Right On, AMEN Brother


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Reba
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« Reply #54 on: September 25, 2004, 03:02:33 AM »

Despensationalismn teaches the church  His body will get weaker and weaker therefore Dispensationalism teaches a looser for a GOD.
Despensationalsim teaches contrary to scriptures concerning the Kingdom of God /Kingdom of Heaven
Despensationalsim teaches Gods laws are of no value today
Despensationalsim teaches the "Gap" theory
Despensationalsim came to be in about 1830
Gods word tells us Jesus was salin before the foundations of world
Despensationalsim teaches the Cross to be an after thought
Despensationalsim teaches salvation natural birth




One of my most prized possessions is a wore out tattered  beatup old well used Scofield bible it is a 1967 my brother got the earlyer one. I grew up believing Scofieds notes were scripture because they were printed in the Bible. Despensationalsim was taught in our home Dad being an AofG pastor.  My knowledge of dispensationalsim is a life long learning and for the last 20 years a unlearning so to speek. Dads ol Scofield is mine now and dads notes speak to the victory glory and power of God. His soverignity, His magistry.

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Reba
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« Reply #55 on: September 25, 2004, 03:17:00 AM »

Salvation is only in the Blood of Jesus
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BigD
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« Reply #56 on: September 25, 2004, 07:07:10 AM »

In our discussion as to how individuals were saved in the past, My contentions was, and is, that it has ALWAYS been by FAITH in what God required at that point in time of human history.

BigD asked the following questions from Reba:

"Tell me now, Were the children of Israel, in the OT and during the Gospels, saved by believing/doing  the Cross work of Christ, or doing the deeds and works of the Law by FAITH? Also, are we believers today saved by doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH, or by putting our FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ? Were Adam and Eve saved by doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH or putting their FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ? How about Noah, How was he saved, by doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH, or by putting his FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ? Lets not forget about Abram/Abraham. Was he saved by doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH, or by putting his FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ?"

Which she answered by quoting the following Bible verses. Ps 20; 18:2; 18:46 51:68; Jer 3:23; Zezh 9:9; Acts 4:10-12; Deut 32:3-4 and 1Cor 10:4.

None of the above verses answer the questions. I will therefore answer them for her. They are not trick questions or that hard to answer.

Q: Tell me now, Were the Children of Isreal, in the OT and during the Gospels, saved by believing/doing the Cross work of Christ, or do the deeds and works of the Law by FAITH"

A: By doing what God required during that point in time. By FAITH in doing the deeds/works of Law.
---------------------------------------

Q: Also, are we believers today saved by doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH, or by putting our FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ?

A: By putting our FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ.
----------------------------------------

Q: Were Adam and Eve saved by doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH or putting their FAITH and trust in the Crost work of Christ?

A: Neither. After the "fall" God gave them a conscience to know right from wrong. They were saved by FAITH in what God required of them and following their conscience.
-----------------------------------------

Q: How about Noah, Hwo was he saved, byu doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH, or by putting his FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ?

A: Neither. He was saved by FAITH in what God had atold him and by building the ark.
---------------------------------------------

Q:  Lets not forget about Abram/Abraham. Was he saved by doing the deeds/works of the Law by FAITH, or by putting his FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ?

A:  Neither, He was saved by FAITH in believing what God had said. (see Genesis 15:5,6 for Abram and James 2:21,21 for Abraham.)
------------------------------------------

I have asked the above questions to show Reba that God has dealt with mankind in different manners through human history. the attributes of God have NEVER changed, however the manner in which He has dealt with mankind have changed through the course of human history.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord:
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BigD
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« Reply #57 on: September 25, 2004, 10:59:11 AM »

Ollie:
 In the passages of Ephesians 2:11-22 you have quoted, what I consider extremely important in understanding this dispensation of grace.

To understand the above passage more fully, we must know the history of mankind prior to this dispensation of grace.

Prior to God raising up Abram and taking a people unto Himself (Isreal), there were only Gentiles (non-Jews) in the world. They became exceedingly wicked, and therefore God set them aside at the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11. God raised up Abram, a Gentile, in Genesis 12 and made an unconditional covenant with him that through his seed (Israel) all the nations of the world would be blessed.

Through Moses, God gave Israel His instruction in righteousness for the children of Israel to live by, and gave them the Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws to keep by FAITH. Further, God told Moses, in Exodus 19:5-6 that if they would keep His covenats (commandments) they would be ",,,unto Me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation."

After the Temple was built, God established the Aaronic Priesthood. For one to enter the priesthood, that one had to go through a ceremonial washing (baptism) to become a priest (Exodus 30:19-21).

Sometime later, God promied the children of Israel that He would send One that would sit on David's throne forever" (2Sam7:13), and that the kingdom would be upon this earth.

During the time that God was dealing with the nation of Isreal, under the Law, the Gentiles were outside the commonweatlth of Israel, and had none of their promises that God gave to the nation of Israel. For one that was a Gentile, and if that one wanted to serve the true and living God of Isreal, that one had to become a Jew (proselyte), and place themselves under the Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws of Moses.

So, when the proper time of OT prophesy, Christ came into this world, born of a virgin, to establish His kingdom. The King has arrived as a babe in Bethlehem. John the Baptist, Jesus and the 12 disciples preached "the kindom at hand."

John the Baptist preached "repent and be baptized." Why? Because he was preparing the way for the King so the King would have "that holy nations of priests" to spread "the gospel of the kingdom" to the world. Before Jesus went back to heaven, after his DBR, He gave His disciples the "so called" great commission to preach "the gospel of the kingdom" to all the nations of the world. Had Israel, as a nation, accepted their King, repented and be baptized, then they with the 12 disciples would have been "that holy nation of priests" that would have fulfilled the the promise to Abram back in Genesis 12:1-3.

But, What does history record? That Israel, as a nation, rejected the Trinity. They  rejected God the Father by trying "to establish their own righteousness" (Rms 10:3). Also, they (Israel as a nation) refused to be baptized of John and allowed him to be killed. They rejected God the Son when they demanded that Jesus be crucified. They rejected God the Holy Ghost when they, the leaders, killed (stoned) Stephen in Acts 7.

With the rejection of the Trinity, there is no way that the promise to Abram could be fulfilled through the Jews as a nation. Therefore, after the stoning of Stephen, God set the nation of Israel aside; just as he did the Gentiles back in Genesis 11 at the Tower of Babel.

With the setting aside of Isreal (Rms 11:7-12)  the Jew and Gentile became on equal footing and without distinction. God showed Peter in Acts 10 that the Gentile was no longer to be considered "unclean."

The setting aside of Israel is only temporary. Rms 11:25 says "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (the rapture). "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob" (vs 26).

Vs 32 says: "For God hath concluded them all (Jew and Gentile) in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

How does God "show mercy upon all?" Well Ollie, you posting of Epehesians 2:11-22 tells the whole story.

Ephesians 2:11. " Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12.  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Vss 11 and 12 tell us that the unbelievers were no better off then the Gentiles were in the Old Testament, and had no hope of Isreal's benefits because they were without God.

13.  But NOW in Christ Jesus ye (Gentiles) who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

The Gentiles now have the same closeness to God as the Jews. However, they do not have the same benefits. The Jews have an earthly kingdom and promises to look forward to; while the Gentiles have a heavenly home to look forward to. (See 2Cor5:1 and  Philippians 3:20.)

14.  For he is our peace, who hath made both (Jew and Gentile) one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15.  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity (hostility, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain  (Jew and Gentile) one new man (a new creation), so making peace;

16.  And that he might reconcile both (Jew and Gentile) unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity (hostility) thereby:

17.  And came and preached peace to you which were afar  off(Gentiles), and to them that were nigh (Jews).
18.  For through him we both have access by one Spirit (the Holy Spirit) unto the Father.
19.  Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20.  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

The foundation for Israel and the Body of Christ is Jesus Christ, the chief corner stone.

21.  In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22.  In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."

Ollie goes on:
Is not Paul telling the Ephesian gentiles they are fellow citizens with the saints and of the household of God built upon the foundation laid by the prophets and the apostles with Jesus as the chief cornerstone? Is this not telling us the prophets of old led to Jesus with their prophecies? Indicating that the faithful before the law and under the law looked forward to Jesus Christ and His salvation.

These verses also indicate that the commonweallth of Israel and the gentiles are joint heirs to the promises given to those found in the OT. through Jesus Christ. Having been made one through Christ. The binding element being the blood of Jesus Christ and faith in/on Him.

BigD responds:
Israel, under the Law looked forward to an everelasting King to sit upon a everlasting throne here upon the earth (see Romans 15:8). Members of the Body of Christ look forward to our position in heaven.

It is true that Isreal and the Body of Christ each recieve out inheritance through the blood of Christ. The nation of Israel through the Law by FAITH, and the Body of Christ through Grace through FAITH in the Cross work of Christ.

God Bless.
Live Well,  Laugh Often,  Love the Lord!
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BigD
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« Reply #58 on: September 25, 2004, 11:36:14 AM »

Despensationalismn teaches the church  His body will get weaker and weaker therefore Dispensationalism teaches a looser for a GOD.
Despensationalsim teaches contrary to scriptures concerning the Kingdom of God /Kingdom of Heaven
Despensationalsim teaches Gods laws are of no value today
Despensationalsim teaches the "Gap" theory
Despensationalsim came to be in about 1830
Gods word tells us Jesus was salin before the foundations of world
Despensationalsim teaches the Cross to be an after thought
Despensationalsim teaches salvation natural birth

One of my most prized possessions is a wore out tattered  beatup old well used Scofield bible it is a 1967 my brother got the earlyer one. I grew up believing Scofieds notes were scripture because they were printed in the Bible. Despensationalsim was taught in our home Dad being an AofG pastor.  My knowledge of dispensationalsim is a life long learning and for the last 20 years a unlearning so to speek. Dads ol Scofield is mine now and dads notes speak to the victory glory and power of God. His soverignity, His magistry.

Reba I totally disagree with you opening remarks.

Maybe I hadn't made myself clear earlier, but I did try to explain that dispensationalism is not a denomination, but a manner in which one studies the Scriptures.

I too use the Scofield Bible. I find many of the footnotes very helpful, but there are several that I am in total disagreement with.

Dr. Scofield was dispensationalist, and was considered an Acts 2 dispensationalists. Meaning that he wrote his footnotes from the position that he believed that the dispensation of grace/the Body of Christ started at Pentecost.

I am an Acts 9/mid-Acts dispensationalist, which means that I believe that the dispensation of grace/body of Christ started after the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7 and the raising up of Saul/Paul in Acts 9

Then there are the Acts 28:28 dispensationalists that believe that the dispensation of grace/Body of Christ started after Paul had received full knowledge of the mystery.

I have even run acorss a few that believe that the dispensation of grace/the body of Christ started in John 20:22, and some at the cross.

What it all boils down to is that dispensationalism doesn't teach anything. It is what some dispensationalists teach. All dispensationalist do not preach or believe the same thing.

IMHO you father was, not doubt,  was an Acts 2 dispensationalist and preached in his AofG Church from the Acts 2 dispensationalists viewpoint. There are many areas in which he and I would possibly agree and some areas where we would diagree.

Reba, isn't is great that our salvation is not based upon all our doctrine being exactly correct. Our salvation is based upon our relationship with Christ.

Even if our doctrines don't always agree, our salvation is always secure. Wrong doctrine could possibly effect our Christian walk which could possibly effect our rewards a the Judgment seat of Christ.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lors!
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Reba
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« Reply #59 on: September 25, 2004, 12:01:00 PM »

Reba I totally disagree with you opening remarks.

Quote
Maybe I hadn't made myself clear earlier, but I did try to explain that dispensationalism is not a denomination, but a manner in which one studies the Scriptures.
You state the above as if i said dispy was demonination... I did not

Quote
I too use the Scofield Bible. I find many of the footnotes very helpful, but there are several that I am in total disagreement with.

Dr. Scofield was dispensationalist, and was considered an Acts 2 dispensationalists. Meaning that he wrote his footnotes from the position that he believed that the dispensation of grace/the Body of Christ started at Pentecost.
He was a liar a felon an adultar
Quote
I am an Acts 9/mid-Acts dispensationalist, which means that I believe that the dispensation of grace/body of Christ started after the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7 and the raising up of Saul/Paul in Acts 9

Then there are the Acts 28:28 dispensationalists that believe that the dispensation of grace/Body of Christ started after Paul had received full knowledge of the mystery.

I have even run acorss a few that believe that the dispensation of grace/the body of Christ started in John 20:22, and some at the cross.

What it all boils down to is that dispensationalism doesn't teach anything. It is what some dispensationalists teach. All dispensationalist do not preach or believe the same thing.
I lived it i know what i was taught i has seen the changes to cover the falsehoods. Playing a word game? Dispensationalsim/despensationallists?

Quote
IMHO you father was, not doubt,  was an Acts 2 dispensationalist and preached in his AofG Church from the Acts 2 dispensationalists viewpoint. There are many areas in which he and I would possibly agree and some areas where we would diagree.
I see i did not make myself clear,  Dad was not a dispy when he died.

Quote
Reba, isn't is great that our salvation is not based upon all our doctrine being exactly correct. Our salvation is based upon our relationship with Christ.
Salvation is in Him and Him alone not in us and Him.

Quote
Even if our doctrines don't always agree, our salvation is always secure. Wrong doctrine could possibly effect our Christian walk which could possibly effect our rewards a the Judgment seat of Christ.

 You said you would answer my questions. ?
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