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[BigD]

Where in God's Word does He say the covenant with Abe is unconditional?

BigD replies:
Gee Reba, I thought every student of the Bible knew that.

Genesis 12:1-3 "Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make they name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all the familes of the earth be blessed."

That is about as unconditional as you can get.

BigD responds:
Israel is the land that God promised to the Jewish nation. An Israili is one from the nation of Israel. I am a dutchman by heritage because my grandparents on both sides came from Holland.  I am an American by citizenship.....

However, Israel will still have to go through the Tribulation that started in Acts 2: 15-20, and was interrupted when God set the nation of Israel aside after the stoning of Stephen. At the end of the Tribulation; Christ will return to establish His Kingdom and Jeremiah 31:31-34, the "new covenant" will be then take place. Jesus said in Matthew 26:29 "But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, UNTIL THAT DAY WHEN I DRINK IT NEW WITH YOU IN MY FATHER'S KINGDOM."

Reba asked:

Are you saying only Jews born in Israel will go through the trib?

BigD answers:
I don't believe I ever said that or implied that. However, I will tell you who will go through the Tribulation.

Answer: All the unsaved of the world that are not taken up at the rapture. Also, the 144,000 sealed Jews that are mentioned in Revelation 7:4-8.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[BigD]

Reba posted:
"Despensationalismn teaches the church  His body..."

BigD responded:
Maybe I hadn't made myself clear earlier, but I did try to explain that dispensationalism is not a denomination, but a manner in which one studies the Scriptures.

Reba replied:
You state the above as if i said dispy was demonination... I did not

BigD come back:
Every  denominational Chruch organization that I have heard of that ends in "ism" is a denomination. Like Calvinism, Pentecostalism, Luthereanism and others. Also, you painted all dispensationalist with the same brush. We are not all the same.
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BigD posted:
I too use the Scofield Bible. I find many of the footnotes very helpful, but there are several that I am in total disagreement with.

Dr. Scofield was dispensationalist, and was considered an Acts 2 dispensationalists. Meaning that he wrote his footnotes from the position that he believed that the dispensation of grace/the Body of Christ started at Pentecost.

Reba responded:
He was a liar a felon an adultar.

BigD answers:
I know nothing of his personal life.
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BigD posted:
I am an Acts 9/mid-Acts dispensationalist, which means that I believe that the dispensation of grace/body of Christ started after the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7 and the raising up of Saul/Paul in Acts 9

Then there are the Acts 28:28 dispensationalists that believe that the dispensation of grace/Body of Christ started after Paul had received full knowledge of the mystery.

I have even run acorss a few that believe that the dispensation of grace/the body of Christ started in John 20:22, and some at the cross.

What it all boils down to is that dispensationalism doesn't teach anything. It is what some dispensationalists teach. All dispensationalist do not preach or believe the same thing.

Reba responded:
I lived it i know what i was taught i has seen the changes to cover the falsehoods. Playing a word game? Dispensationalsim/despensationallists?

BigD replies:
Dispensationalsim/despensationallists is not a word game. Both words have different meanings.
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BigD posted:
IMHO you father was, not doubt,  was an Acts 2 dispensationalist and preached in his AofG Church from the Acts 2 dispensationalists viewpoint. There are many areas in which he and I would possibly agree and some areas where we would diagree.

Reba responded:
I see i did not make myself clear,  Dad was not a dispy when he died.

BigD replies:
Even if you dad was not a dispy when he died, he WAS a dispy at one time, and either way, we still probably would have agreed and disagreed in some ares of what the Bible teaches.
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BigD posted:
Reba, isn't is great that our salvation is not based upon all our doctrine being exactly correct. Our salvation is based upon our relationship with Christ.

Reba responded:
Salvation is in Him and Him alone not in us and Him.

BigD replies:
I agree with you statement and stand by mine.
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Reba posted:
You said you would answer my questions. ?

BigD responds:
I did.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[Reba]

A man tells his son.... I will give you a car

that sounds unconditional

the dad goes on and says if you keep your grades up.

opps the condition!

***********************
I do not read Gen 12 as a covenant but even so the condition is in bold even my simple mind can see get out as a condition


Gen 12:1-2
12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
KJV


Gen 17:7

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
KJV

Gen 17:10-11

10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
KJV



Big D i think the only question you did not reply to was something like this   Could man break an unconditional covenant.

As far as the  despensationalist or 'ism'  that  is simply my lack  of word knowledge and its usage nothing more.

The personal lives of a movements leaders or leaders in general should be researched by their followers.   As in the personal lives of Swaggart, Bakker, Hinn, RCC leaders, AA Allan, White, Scott etc. These  things matter.

[BigD]

Reba:
If I would have told one of my sons "I will give you a car," that IS and an unconditional statement. Had I said "I will give you a car if you keep your grades up," then I would have made a conditional covenant,

Had God said to Abram "IFyou will get thee out of they country, THEN I will make thee a great nation..." It would have been conditioned upon Abram obeying God request.

I see "Get thee out" as a request/command/order, and not a condition. When my sons were younger and I told them to take out the garbage, It was not a condition, it was a request/command/order.

Even though I know that Dr. Scofield was responsible for the writing and publishing for his Bible, I was also unaware that he was the head of a movement. My father used a Scofield and he was not involved in any special movement.

The Scofield Bible is my primary study Bible, however, I also use 4 other translations. I do not belong to any special movement. I am a non-denominational independant dispensationalist. The Church I attend is strickly independant and we don't even have an official Chruch membership list. We are a body of like minded believers.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord.

[Reba]

Big D,
 We disagree BUT talking with you has been pleasent. Thanks

[BigD]

Reba:
THANK YOU for your kind remark. I too did enjoy our dialogue. There is one thing that I believe that we can agree on, and that is that we both study our Bible from a different vantage point.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[Sulfurdolphin]

And if we want to know who are the "saints" who shall thus be gathered to Him the answer is "Those that have made a covenant with Me by sacrifice or literally Those that have cut My covenant over the sacrifice." The expression "cut" is explained by ancient custom of cutting the slain animals and arranging the pieces so that the covenanting parties could pass through the midst. Such as the covenant with Abraham in Genesis chapter 17 which is a continuation of God's faithfulness which chapter 12 of Genesis is a Promise.

pass through the midst.  In this way they pledged their lives to the fulfilment of the contract and called down the fate of the slain sacrifices on themselves in case of unfaithfulness. But note the expression "My covenant." Ah in that word "MY" lies the safety and blessedness of God's redeemed people for when God made promises to Abraham in which promise are contained the blessings of the gospel to all who are of faith Galations 3:8, Romans IV: 9-25 and ratified the promise by convenant oath He sware by Himself Hebrews VI:13-20 He only , made promise, and pledged Himself to its fulfilment, for on that solemn night when the original unconditional covenant was made with the father of the faithful after the animals were slain and Abraham "divided them in the midst and laid each piece "one Against the other"  a deep sleep came upon him upon him so that he was prevented from making another oath or promise: "And it came to pass that when the sun went down and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces."

The Unconditional covenant of grace is therefore not a contract between two parties as the conditional covenant of the law was but a gracious promise dependent on the faithhfulness of God only for its fulfillment and it is called a "Covenant" for the probable reason that the promise of gospel blessings to man is the outcome of a covenant in the eternal counsels between the Father and the Son in reference to man's redemption.

It is therefore called "HIS COVENANT," and we enter into its gracious contents of blessings over the sacrifice. The true ratification of the covenant was not with the blood of animals. At the original "cutting of the covenant" with Abraham there were indeed animal sacrifices and in connection with the Sinaitic covenant of the law we read that after Moses had spoken every precept to the people "he took the blood of calvs and of goats with water and scarlet wool and hyssop and sprinkled both the book and all the people saying This is the blood of the covenant which God hath enjoined unto you but what were all the Levitical sacrifices but types and shadows of the true Lamb of God.

The Ancient Scriptures For The Modern Jew ....pages 119 and 120 written by David Baron

Such as the covenant with Abraham in Genesis chapter 17 which is a continuation of God's faithfulness which chapter 12 of Genesis is a Promise. Note: this is what i added up above and was not of the original author David Baron.

Michael