DISCUSSION FORUMS
MAIN MENU
Home
Help
Advanced Search
Recent Posts
Site Statistics
Who's Online
Forum Rules
Bible Resources
• Bible Study Aids
• Bible Devotionals
• Audio Sermons
Community
• ChristiansUnite Blogs
• Christian Forums
• Facebook Apps
Web Search
• Christian Family Sites
• Top Christian Sites
• Christian RSS Feeds
Family Life
• Christian Finance
• ChristiansUnite KIDS
Shop
• Christian Magazines
• Christian Book Store
Read
• Christian News
• Christian Columns
• Christian Song Lyrics
• Christian Mailing Lists
Connect
• Christian Singles
• Christian Classifieds
Graphics
• Free Christian Clipart
• Christian Wallpaper
Fun Stuff
• Clean Christian Jokes
• Bible Trivia Quiz
• Online Video Games
• Bible Crosswords
Webmasters
• Christian Guestbooks
• Banner Exchange
• Dynamic Content

Subscribe to our Free Newsletter.
Enter your email address:

ChristiansUnite
Forums
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
May 20, 2022, 07:22:39 PM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
Our Lord Jesus Christ loves you.
284791 Posts in 27554 Topics by 3790 Members
Latest Member: Goodwin
* Home Help Search Login Register
+  ChristiansUnite Forums
|-+  Theology
| |-+  Prophecy - Current Events (Moderator: admin)
| | |-+  Revelations
« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Revelations  (Read 16253 times)
2nd Timothy
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2706


Resident Meese Master


View Profile
« Reply #60 on: November 09, 2004, 07:04:20 PM »

Quote
I guess what I mean is "historical Jesus" in the context of "what did Jesus really say and do"?

Intrigued is a fair word I guess, however, I am bit more than intrigued.    Present day Jesus is pretty intriguing too, don't you think?   Wink

Grace and Peace!
Logged

Tim

Enslaved in service to Christ
coptic
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 17



View Profile
« Reply #61 on: November 09, 2004, 07:10:01 PM »

Quote
I guess what I mean is "historical Jesus" in the context of "what did Jesus really say and do"?

Intrigued is a fair word I guess, however, I am bit more than intrigued.    Present day Jesus is pretty intriguing too, don't you think?   Wink

Grace and Peace!

Absolutely!
Logged
Last Daze
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 12


I'm a llama!


View Profile
« Reply #62 on: November 09, 2004, 08:01:11 PM »


The natural tendency of people who read this book is to assume that its providing an account of what is still to transpire in our own future.  And so its been understood, down through the ages.  The only problem though is that every generation has assumed that the book is referring to what will happen in its own time.  And so far, of course, every generation has been wrong.  Even though each generation thinks that surely it will be the one.

......

Who was the first emperor of Rome to persecute Christians?  It was the emperor Nero.
When you spell the name Caesar Nero in Hebrew letters and add up the letters it adds up to 666.  According to texts from the 1st and 2nd centuries he was believes, in some Jewish circles, to be about to come back from the dead to again rule Rome and persecute the people of god.

......

But!!  If we are interested in known what the author of Revelations himself meant, it makes sense to think that he is talking about something going on in his own world and time.

What do you think of this?

My biggest problem Coptic with your interpretation is that it does not account for what we read at the end of Revelation or the last Chapter of Daniel (in the KJV anyway).  It is the time of the resurrection, the great calling out of the saints (those that live and those that sleep), and ultimately the visible return of The Messiah at the battle of Armageddon.  Daniel specifically states that certain visions were for the time of the end, meaning the time of the return of The Ancient of Days in glory and the end of this world system.  Many of his visions were of the state of the world at that time and some of the things that would be happening leading up to that time.  Revelation in many ways is almost a restatement of some of Daniel’s visions and even elaborates on certain events in a little more detail.  So if Daniel’s visions were for the time of the end then Revelation would also be for the time of the end since it testifies of the same events which will transpire at that time.  The culmination of both Daniel’s and John’s visions is the return of The Messiah and the putting down of the one who will oppose Him at His return.  So unless you think this happened in the first century AD then how can you dismiss these prophecies as fulfilled?  If you do think it happened then you must show the historical record that proves that this event transpired already.
Logged
FayeC
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 34



View Profile
« Reply #63 on: November 10, 2004, 07:06:24 PM »

FayC,

I'm being nice by saying start over and learn your ABCs.

Moderator

What does THAT mean?!!

You want me to conform to the majority view here, or beat it?!  Is that what you're saying?!

Well, no thanks.  I am my own woman, with my own views concerning end-time scriptures.  And the day I conform to the popular view is the day I cease to be my own person.

Anyway, I thought we were all adults here.

 
Logged
nChrist
Global Moderator
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 64256


May God Lead And Guide Us All


View Profile
« Reply #64 on: November 10, 2004, 08:46:27 PM »

FayC,

I'm being nice by saying start over and learn your ABCs.

Moderator


What does THAT mean?!!

You want me to conform to the majority view here, or beat it?!  Is that what you're saying?!

Well, no thanks.  I am my own woman, with my own views concerning end-time scriptures.  And the day I conform to the popular view is the day I cease to be my own person.

Anyway, I thought we were all adults here.

 

I'm not a bashful person. Had I meant that, I would have said exactly that. It means that you don't have a clue, and you should start over with the basics. Study your Bible, and you will get a clue.

Love In Christ,
Tom
« Last Edit: November 10, 2004, 10:00:52 PM by blackeyedpeas » Logged

Symphony
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3117


I'm a llama!


View Profile
« Reply #65 on: November 10, 2004, 09:13:25 PM »

I personaly agree that micro-chips are more then likley going to be the mark. But even if they weren't you cant be 100% sure so I wont go excepting any kind of mark from anyone. Im not willing to wage my salvation on a theory.


Has anyone mentioned the RFID technology, gradually replacing the bar code(first used on chewing gum in 1974)?

It's a tiny chip being used currently for inventory - like Walmart has issued new marching order for suuppliers - use the imbedded inventory control, the RFID, or forfeit sales.

RFID theoretically could be used in products, but unlike the bar code, they track individual items, not categories of items.  They're infinite in number, and disposable.

They would allow surveillance by the things or items one always has with them(incl. clothes).
Logged
The_8th_Person
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 66


"My best friend was born in a manger" - DC Talk


View Profile
« Reply #66 on: November 11, 2004, 11:44:08 PM »

Speaking of RFID chips I saw a show on the history channel the other day. It was about surveillance technology and they had the RFID chips. The thing that scared me most is that there are already people using them. A man (probably some kind of designer for the chip) said, "I got chipped on (such and such date)". Then he took a scanner and waved it over is upper arm and it displayed his personnel ID number as he stated. With that doctors and whoever else has access can search it in there "secure" databases and get all of his medical info. amongst other things. Then they spoke of all the "wonderful" applications it could be used for in the future. This scares me very much and I honestly believe the mark of beast is in its youth.
Logged

FayeC
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 34



View Profile
« Reply #67 on: November 12, 2004, 06:09:39 AM »

I do find it interesting that the greek used to describe MARK in the passage of Revelation also means stake/sharpen to a point etc.

charax
khar'-ax
From “charasso” (to sharpen to a point; akin to G1125 through the idea of scratching); a stake, that is, (by implication) a palisade or rampart (millitary mound for circumvallation in a siege): - trench.

Stake in in the hand or forehead?  This is how chip implants would be administered....with a needle!


"Mark" means the same thing as "image" in Rev.13.

"Mark" of the beast.
"Image" of the beast.

"Name" and "number" in verse 17 refers to the beast as well.

"Name" of the beast.
"Number" of his name.

"And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the "mark", or the "name" of the beast, or the "number" of his name."

So then we discover in that verse that it is "the beast" which is able to "buy and sell".





Logged
FayeC
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 34



View Profile
« Reply #68 on: November 12, 2004, 06:14:11 AM »

FayC,

I'm being nice by saying start over and learn your ABCs.

Moderator


What does THAT mean?!!

You want me to conform to the majority view here, or beat it?!  Is that what you're saying?!

Well, no thanks.  I am my own woman, with my own views concerning end-time scriptures.  And the day I conform to the popular view is the day I cease to be my own person.

Anyway, I thought we were all adults here.

 

I'm not a bashful person. Had I meant that, I would have said exactly that. It means that you don't have a clue, and you should start over with the basics. Study your Bible, and you will get a clue.

Love In Christ,
Tom


Quite the contrary:  I sometimes think I spend more time than I should in the study of Prophesy, and that I should instead study other parts of the Bible.  Smiley
Logged
FayeC
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 34



View Profile
« Reply #69 on: November 12, 2004, 06:28:03 AM »

ollie>>>>"Paul was talking about a spiritual falling away within the ecclessia, (church), not a secular nation falling away."

Then I must be imagioning scriptures which talk about "Babylon"; the mighty city which reigns over the kings of the earth, eh?

"The falling away happened at the Apostasy to secular and spiritual power of the church at Rome during the crumbling of imperial Rome."

WOW, I could have sworn that 11Thes.2 was talking about the generation which lived just prior to the 2nd coming of Christ!
Logged
FayeC
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 34



View Profile
« Reply #70 on: November 12, 2004, 07:01:02 AM »

source: http://www.hallindseyoracle.com/

Where is America in Bible Prophecy?
One of the questions I am asked the most often in regard to the outline of Scripture for the last days is the question; "Where is America in Bible Prophecy?

This is a difficult question, mostly because it has such a difficult answer. I love my country, and I'd love to find references to it in the last days. But it isn't there. And that seems to be quite a mystery, given that we are at the moment the most powerful nation on earth, by every conceivable measure.

There are some who try and find America in Scripture. I'll outline a few of these views for you.

America, the wide and smooth?

Some point to Isaiah 18, which speaks of a people "tall and smooth" who are "feared far and wide." The passage says these people are "a powerful nation whose land the rivers divide" that will one day bring gifts to the Messiah when He reigns from Mount Zion.

Those who hold this view, point to the fact the United States is divided by the Mississippi, to America's power and say we are the people "feared far and wide" of whom Isaiah was speaking. But this view only works if you ignore the first verse of Chapter 18. It clearly identifies the powerful nation divided by a river as Cush, or Ethiopia. At the time of Isaiah, Ethiopia was part of the Egyptian empire and the river referred to is without doubt the Nile.

Tarshing America

Another view says that America is identified by the prophet Ezekiel in Ezekiel 38:13. Ezekiel speaks of the "merchants of Tarshish and all the young lions thereof" who launch a diplomatic protest at the time of the Gog-Magog invasion of Israel. Some point to the fact that Tarshish was the westernmost trading and seafaring nation of the ancient world. From there, Tarshish becomes Britain. After all, Britain is the westernmost point on the Continent. And the symbol of Britain is a lion. Consequently, "all the young lions thereof" become the former British colonies, like Australia, Canada and, of course, the United States. Therefore, ipso facto, the merchants of Tarshish and all the young lions thereof must be referring to America.

But this doesn't work, either. First and foremost, nobody can pinpoint with any degree of accuracy the location of Tarshish. The only thing we are sure of is that it isn't Britain. The most recent archeological evidence puts ancient Tarshish in Spain, which, while close, doesn't quite win the cigar.

The eagle has landed

Another popular candidate for a biblical America is found in Revelation 12:13-17. In this exercise in applied imagination, we can find America, and she is busily engaged in an heroic effort to save Israel. If you accept the interpretation that includes America, that is.

This passage states that during the Tribulation, God will provide a means of escape for the Jewish remnant in Israel. It says they will be carried into the wilderness on the "wings of a great eagle." Misinterpreting this verse makes it possible to have the United States supplying a military airlift of Israelis to safety -- on the "wings of an eagle." You can make this work only by ignoring the fact that Scripture interprets Scripture. And the Scripture already identifies who has the wings of an eagle.

In Deuteronomy 32:11, God identifies the bearer of Israel on eagles' wings. "As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad on her wings, taketh them, and beareth them on her wings, So the Lord alone did lead him [Israel] and there was no strange god with him." It is a nice picture, and in keeping with our own self-image, to see America as Israel's savior during the Tribulation. But it is clearly incorrect.

Babylon, N.Y.

Probably the most widely accepted explanation of America in Bible prophecy uses Revelation Chapter 18 to show that the United States is really "Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots."

The reason this symbol is the most widely accepted symbol of the United States is because the shoe seems to fit. Consider the evidence offered in support of this view, because it is compelling. Revelation 18:2 opens with the angelic declaration that "Babylon the Great is fallen."

Verse 3 describes Babylon the great thusly: "all the nations of the earth have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornications with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies." This doesn't seem to be much of a reach, on first glance.

America has sunk to moral depths scarcely imaginable a generation ago. We kill babies in the womb when they are socially inconvenient. The nuclear family is all but extinct. Morals are situational, if they are relevant at all. We choose as entertainment stories about adultery, fornication, violence and virtually every form of evil.

We are the world's leading exporters of filth and pornography, not to mention being the world's largest arms dealer and exporter of destruction and mayhem. Politically, we have just emerged from one of the most shameful and immoral presidential campaign in living memory.

Not America's vision

The description goes on, referencing the fact she "sits as a queen and no widow." One could argue the U.S. sits as a queen (it's probably more politically correct than a king, anyway) and no widow, as America has seen no war on her shores in living memory. Since the Apostle John also refers to the fact that "ships and sailors and as many as trade by sea" will see the city burning, this view makes New York City Babylon the Great.

The original Babylon still stands, in Iraq, but nowhere near the sea. And, just outside New York City is the city of Babylon, N.Y.! So, there you have it! And it all seems to make sense, really. Provided you are looking at prophecy as if it were given from the perspective of Washington. But it isn't.

In Bible prophecy everything orients from Israel. John's vision of the apocalypse is from the perspective of Israel, during the time of Jacob's trouble, not America's. But the most conclusive reason is given in Revelation 17:18.

John says Mystery Babylon is really a woman -- that great harlot who will reign over the cities from earth. But John wrote that the great city was clearly Rome, and that is the city that will reign over the earth in the last days.

I can imagine the heaps of criticism this column will engender.

America faces threats from mad bombers, mad dictators, a unified Russian-Chinese military adversary and a host of other threats. Who wants to be the one to say that, biblically speaking, there is no reason to think one of them isn't going to happen? But America is not a major player in the last days -- she hasn't even a bit part.

I personally believe that one explanation could be that our country and its leadership will be so decimated following the Rapture that we will simply cease to be a major influence overnight.

I prefer that over the alternative.

********************************************



"When John speaks of "the woman" in Revelation, he is referring  to "Israel" the Israelites; the son's of Jacob.

My question is; Why do today's prophets refer only to Judah (Jews) as God's chosen people?!, when clearly ALL the sons of Jacob were his chosen.





Logged
Jemidon2004
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 468


Just a sinner granted unmerited marvelous grace...


View Profile
« Reply #71 on: November 12, 2004, 03:31:55 PM »

Didin't realize that there was so-called prophets in this day and age. I thought Israel had killed them all...lol. I've been watching this thread in the wings for a while and will continue to do so as this thread continues on and on, one thing however i keep noticing is that in the spirit of discussion and this happens in all of the posts, sometimes a word gets put in and misconstrued. You are correct that the woman in Revelation is the Nation of Israel or the remnant of Israel as most commonly known in the OT. We see that Babylon can be one of many things. Physical Babylon where the antichrist will reign for his short period of time and also Spiritual babylon which will be subject to the one world religion first and foremost then to strictly worship of the Beast (Antichrist) (any serious student of the Word knows the Beast is the Antichrist, and the False prophet is his right hand man or the person the antichrist uses in order to carry out his work. I think this is 2 parts of what's called the "un-holy' trinity. being satan, antichrist, and false prophet. Sad how satan has such pride that he thinks he can parade and make up his own trinity. In the end he loses. The good book says this. and as for the Trib. period. Those who are Born again believers won't have to worry about this period. only those left behind to see God's wrath. I gotta to pick up my father, so i'm outta here. God Bless.

OH YEA...Kalthazar...i said that about a prophecy timeline. In order to understand prophecy one needs to know where Israel fits in the timeline. I'm using the word timeline loosely to refer to a sequence of events in a particular order. According to Scripture we're coming close to the end of the church age being the time from the Ascension to the Rapture. We've seen these based on road signs posted along the way. I believe earlier somewhere in the Prophecy rooms that I laid out my sermon on the Road signs and why we should be on our knees looking up instead of standing up looking down at our thumbs. Anyway, i thoguht i'd just clear that up. LOL. By no means am I putting a time limit on the Rapture or Christ's return. some in the 1530's and the 1550's tried to say which date it was, and the same thing has happened over the next couple of centuries. I took their mistakes as a lesson that no one should even begin to try to say when Christ is coming. Completely contradicts Scripture, and that's not what I'm here to do...lol. I hop ethis clears it up.

God Bless

In His Service,
Joshua
Logged


"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty" - John Calvin
BigD
Guest
« Reply #72 on: November 13, 2004, 05:12:47 AM »

PART 1
ollie & FayeC:

For your consideration:

Taken from the commentary "THESSALONIANS" by Pastor C.R.Stam. (Footnotes omited.)

Chapter II - II Thessalonians 2:1-3

FIRST THE DEPARTURE AN APPEAL TO THE FALTERING

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."

II Thes. 2:1-3

LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU BY ANY MEANS

The Apostle's appeal to the Thessalonian saints not to be "shaken," or “troubled," or "deceived. . . by any means," is based upon the truth of the Rapture.

It was “by" or on the basis of “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto Him," that he begged them not to falter. This was their "blessed hope," and he besought them not to let any man take it from them either “by spirit" (i.e., the supposed gift of prophecy), or “by word" (i.e., argument) or “by letter as from us” (Ver. 2).

Of all the strong evidences in the Thessalonian epistles that the rapture of believers to be with Christ will precede the Tribulation, the opening verses of II Thes. 2 are certainly the strongest.

NOT ONE SCRIPTURE?

One Bible teacher has declared that "there is not one verse of Scripture whiche explicitly affirms the rapture of the Church before the Tribulation.

But why need there be? There is "not one verse of Scripture which explicitly affirms" that our Lord was baptized before His temptation by the devil, or that He was crowned with thorns before He was crucified, or that baptism with water is no longer included in God's program for believers, or that God is a Trinity. Yet there is abundant Scriptural proof for all these, and the brother referred to above accepts them all as the truth of the Word of God.

Some time ago one of the author's "post-trib." friends wrote to him:

"The great tribulation is not pleasant to anticipate -- this is a fact (Dan. 12:1; Matt. 24:21,22). But in the light of [a series of Scripture passages] I know by God's grace and strength I can endure the greatest torture or the most gruesome death. Perhaps, brother, I will be called upon one day to prove my word. God only knows. I can rest only in Him (II Tim. 1:7). Paul went through much, as did many first-century Christians. To those individuals, tortured and killed, the pain they suffered could not be any worse than the saints will suffer as individuals in the great tribulation. Praise God for our great and glorious hope, I Tim. 1:1."

How sad this is in view of the following three facts:

1. Paul, in speaking of the Rapture never says one word to prepare the saints for the horrors of the Tribulation. We may be certain that he would have done so if they were to endure its terrors before being caught up to be with Christ.

2. Our Lord, in speaking to His "kingdom" followers did say much to them about the coming Tribulation, but not one word about their being "caught up" to meet Him in the air.

3. Thus, the rapture of believers to be with Christ, is distinctively the hope of the Body of Christ, for which Paul repeatedly urges us to be "looking" and "waiting," encouraging one another in the anticipation of this “blessed hope" (Tit. 2:13).

But wait! There is indeed one blessed passage of Scripture which "explicitly affirms" that the Rapture will precede the Tribulation. It is II Thes. 2:3.

Our respect and admiration for the King James Version grows more profound each year. We believe that KJV stands head and shoulders above all other English translations, and perhaps above all other translations in any language. It is in the truest sense a faithful translation. Also, we believe that God has graciously preserved the Greek Scriptures for us in Textus Receptus, the Received Text of the New Testament, rightly called the Majority Text, the text upon which KJV is substantially based.

Yet here is a case where the KJV translators departed from Textus Receptus, for TR does not contain the words "a falling away" in II Thes. 2:3, but the words "the departure," Gr., hee apostasia. Thus the verse actually reads:

"Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come except the departure come first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."

There is abundant evidence for this rendering, as we shall now proceed to prove.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!
Logged
BigD
Guest
« Reply #73 on: November 13, 2004, 05:15:45 AM »

PART 2
APOSTASIA AND APOSTASY

First, our English word apostasy, is not an exact equivalent of the Greek apostasia. The English word apostasy means rebellion, or revolt, against a faith once embraced, but the Greek apostasia means departure, nothing more.

Actually the Greek noun apostasia occurs only once more in the New Testament, namely in Acts 21:21, where Paul is informed of the report that he has taught "all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses."

We suggest that even here the word "depart" would be a closer synonym to the rendering "forsake" than would the word "apostatize." To forsake is not exactly to revolt or rebel against, and this is what our English word apostasy means. Furthermore, in this case we are told that it was reported that Paul urged these Jews to "forsake," or "depart from" Moses, and surely Paul did not urge them to any revolt against Moses or his writings. He merely pointed out that now, by grace, they were free from the Law, that the Law had been fulfilled for them by Christ.

In any case, the Record does not say that Paul had taught the Jews who lived among the Gentiles to "forsake" Moses. It says only that the Jews in Judaea had been "informed" that this was the case. This rumor was probably an exaggeration of what he actually had done in teaching that the Law had now been fulfilled by Christ and that believers are delivered from its curse (Gal. 3:13).

But while the noun apostasia occurs only twice in the New Testament, the root verb from which the noun is derived occurs 15 times, and its meaning is easy to determine. We refer to the verb aphisteemi. So that there may be no mistake, we present here a list of every New Testament use of this verb.

Luke 2:37: "departed not from the temple."

Luke 4:13: "the devil…departed from Him."

Luke 8:13: "in time of temptation fall away."

Luke 13:27: "Depart from Me, all ye workers of iniquity."

Acts 5:37: "drew away much people after him."

Acts 5:38: "refrain from these men."

Acts 12:10: "the angel departed from him."

Acts 15:38: "who departed from them from Pamphilia."

Acts 19:9: "he departed from them."

Acts 22:29: "they departed from him."

II Cor. 12:8:"I besought the Lord... that it might depart from me."

I Tim. 4: 1: "some shall depart from the faith."

I Tim. 6:5: "from such withdraw thyself."

II Tim. 2:19: "depart from iniquity."

Heb. 3:12: "in departing from the living God."

First, the reader should observe carefully that in 11 out of these 15 occurrences the verb in question is rendered depart, departed, or departing, while in the other four close synonyms are used.

Further, only three out of the 15 are concerned with departure from the truth. And in all three it is clearly stated that the departure is "from the faith" (I Tim. 4:1), "from the living God" (Heb. 3:12), and from that which was "for a while believed" (Luke 8:13), leaving the meaning of the verb aphisteemi itself simply depart -- nothing more -- in all 15 occurrences.

In Luke 4:13 we read that the devil “departed' from Christ. In Acts 12:10 an angel "departs" from Peter. In Acts 15:38 we read that a man had "departed" from Paul and Barnabas. In II Cor. 12:8 we read of Paul's thrice-repeated prayer that a thorn might "depart," or be removed, from his flesh. And so with all the others. Indeed, in two of the 15 cases above the very opposite of apostasy or departure from the truth is involved. In I Tim. 6:5 Timothy is told to depart ("withdraw thyself") from men who are "destitute of the truth," while in II Tim. 2:19 all who "name the name of Christ" are exhorted to "depart from iniquity." Surely these were not instructions to apostatize.

Thus, bear it well in mind, aphisteemi, the root verb of the Greek apostasia, means to depart -- nothing more. Later on we will discuss the particular "departure" referred to in II Thes. 2:3, but first the rendering "a falling away," as compared with "the departure," must be further discussed.

THE AUTHORIZED VERSION  AND ITS PREDECESSORS

Kenneth S. Wuest, in his preface to II Thessalonians, says in part:

"If apostasia and aphisteemi meant what our word ‘apostasy' and ‘apostatize' mean, why did Paul, when using aphisteemi in I Timothy 4:1, feel the need of adding the qualifying phrase, ‘from the faith' to complete the meaning of aphisteemi in that instance of its use? .... The word apostasia, therefore, in its original and pure meaning, unadulterated by the addition of other ideas imposed upon it by the contexts in which it has been used, means “a departure.'"

In explaining why the King James Version failed to retain the rendering "a departure," which they found in the five versions which preceded KJV, Mr. Wuest points out a technical mistake contained in all six versions. Says Mr. Wuest:

"The fatal mistake the translators made 51was in failing to take into consideration the definite article before the word apostasia ... "(Ibid). The article here denotes previous reference, for this wording clearly implies that they already know about it.

The meaning of Paul's words in II Thes. 2:3, then, is that before the Tribulation can come, the "man of sin" must be revealed, and before this can happen "the departure" must come "first."

WHAT DEPARTURE?

No "falling away" or "apostasy" had been previously mentioned in either epistle, but in the whole of I Thessalonians and also of II Thessalonians up to this point, the Apostle's very theme had been the rapture of the members of the Body of Christ. Thus here in II Thes. 2:3 he must be referring to "the departure" of the Church to be with Christ. This falls naturally into place with the whole context, for why should Paul exhort these believers not to be "shaken" or "troubled," merely because the apostasy must precede the Tribulation? This would be no comfort. Further, how could they recognize "the" apostasy, much less "a" falling away when came? The fact is that apostasy is raging now, in our day; it has been throughout the Church's history. Indeed, it began in the days of Paul himself, and he wrote to Timothy, instructing him what to do about it. Thus “a falling away" could be no definite guidepost to the Thessalonian believers. But if, as we have contended, the beginning of the Tribulation awaits the rapture of the members of the Body of Christ, then the very fact that the Thessalonian saints were still on earth was in itself positive proof that the day of the Lord had not yet come.

CONCLUSION

1. The word apostasia and its root verb aphisteemi, do not, used by themselves, mean “apostasy" and “apostatize." They mean “departure" and “depart," nothing more.

2. II Thes. 2:3 states in the Greek, that the day of the Lord will not come “except the departure come first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."

3. The term “the departure," with the definite article, denotes previous reference.

4. Paul had written to the Thessalonians in his previous letter about the departure of the members of Christ's Body from this earth (I Thes. 4:16,17) and had even disassociated this from the prophesied “day of the Lord" with the use of the word, “But" in I Thes. 5:1. He had also referred to this “departure" in the phrase ”our gathering together unto Him," in II Thes. 2:1. Indeed, this was the basis for his appeal to the Thessalonians not to be “shaken" or “troubled" by those who would lead them to believe that “the day of the Lord" had already begun. Also, he had “told" them about “these things" while he was yet with them (II Thes. 2:5).

5. “The man of sin" must also be manifested before the “day of the Lord" can come (II Thes. 2:3,4)52 and he cannot be manifested until “the departure" takes place “first."

6. Thus, in addition to many clear proofs that the rapture of the Body will precede the Tribulation we also have a passage which “explicitly affirms" this.

“WHEREFORE COMFORT ONE ANOTHER…” (I Thes. 4:18).

“BE NOT SOON SHAKEN IN MIND, OR… TROUBLED…” (II Thes. 2:2).

“LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU BY ANY MEANS…” (II Thes. 2:3).

Logged
Symphony
Gold Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3117


I'm a llama!


View Profile
« Reply #74 on: November 15, 2004, 10:34:45 PM »

I personaly agree that micro-chips are more then likley going to be the mark. But even if they weren't you cant be 100% sure so I wont go excepting any kind of mark from anyone. Im not willing to wage my salvation on a theory.


Has anyone mentioned the RFID technology, gradually replacing the bar code(first used on chewing gum in 1974)?

It's a tiny chip being used currently for inventory - like Walmart has issued new marching order for suuppliers - use the imbedded inventory control, the RFID, or forfeit sales.

RFID theoretically could be used in products, but unlike the bar code, they track individual items, not categories of items.  They're infinite in number, and disposable.

They would allow surveillance by the things or items one always has with them(incl. clothes).


Mentioned on CBS News today.  
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  



More From ChristiansUnite...    About Us | Privacy Policy | | ChristiansUnite.com Site Map | Statement of Beliefs



Copyright © 1999-2019 ChristiansUnite.com. All rights reserved.
Please send your questions, comments, or bug reports to the

Powered by SMF 1.1 RC2 | SMF © 2001-2005, Lewis Media