Revelations

[FayeC]

I rather find the book of Revelation easy to interpret, seeing that the things prophesied there have already happened with exception to "the tribulation" and "the coming of the Lord.

Revelation, like Daniel, presents the condition of God's people at the end of the age, prior to Christ's return.  Both the prophet Daniel, and John the Revelator were given a vision of the mighty nation in which they are dwelling.  John calls it "Babylon" and Daniel calls it "the little horn".

Both present startling details about how God's people in that nation turn from Jesus Christ, and begin to worship "the beast".
That worship is called "the abomination which makes that nation desolate".

And were this generation not blinded, they'd be able to clearly see that that nation is our own "America".

"..because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved, for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." 11Thes.2:10-12

Paul says in verse 13 of that chapter, "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and "belief of the truth".

[Bronzesnake]

 FayeC quote...

"..because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved, for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." 11Thes.2:10-12

Paul says in verse 13 of that chapter, "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and "belief of the truth".

 Do you honestly believe that posting those verses backs up false doctrine Faye?

 FayeC..

Here is a classic example of how you come to such false conclusions.
 You have composed your own scriptures. You add your own words in order to make the scriptures line up with what you believe in, and not what God is actually saying.

I rather find the book of Revelation easy to interpret, seeing that the things prophesied there have already happened with exception to "the tribulation" and "the coming of the Lord.

 That's rather vague Faye. Please give verses and explain when and where these events happened.

Revelation, like Daniel, presents the condition of God's people at the end of the age, prior to Christ's return.  Both the prophet Daniel, and John the Revelator were given a vision of the mighty nation in which they are dwelling.  John calls it "Babylon" and Daniel calls it "the little horn".

 Please show me any scripture which leads you to believe that Babylon and/or little horn is America.
 The scriptures

Both present startling details about how God's people in that nation turn from Jesus Christ, and begin to worship "the beast".
That worship is called "the abomination which makes that nation desolate".

 Here you go again Faye. You speak as though America is specifically named in the scriptures. If you point me to the scripture which says..."the abomination which makes that nation desolate" I will never doubt you again...publicly.

 The actual verse says...

 Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

 Faye, how can "America" stand in the holy place?
This verse is in reference to satan standing in the Holy Temple and claiming to be God. If you read the following verses, Jesus warns us not to believe this "god" because he is a liar, and a false prophet. The entire chapter warns us that satan is coming to earth. He will poses a man's body and at some point he will enter the Temple and claim to be God. Jesus tells us how to recognize the true second coming. Jesus said, that when He returns there will be a flash of lightening across the entire universe. This will not occur at the time of satan's false, brief reign. This is just one way to expose the liar.


  Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.  


 Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.  


 Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.  


 Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.  


 Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  


 Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:  


 Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:  


 Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.  


 Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!  


 Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:  


 Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.  


 Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.  


 Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.  


 Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.  


 Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.  


 Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not.  


 Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 If you still believe the little horn is America, I will provide scriptures which show that belief to be a mistake.

Bronzesnake

[Bronzesnake]

I have seen so many different attempts to interpret the book of Revelations. Some point at one specific denomination or another. Some point at one specific nation or another. Each time a major war occurs their are some people that come out saying this is it, this is the start of Armeggedon.

Everyone seems to have their own ideas based on their understanding of the world around us as we understand it today. These ideas keep changing as the world changes.

I want to make a major point here:

Eph 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13  Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Next I want to point out that there are only two churches. I am not talking denominations here but churches. There is the church that is comprised of those that are with God. The other church is comprised with those that are with Satan.
Some say I don't believe in Satan or I don't follow Satan. I go with the Bible on this:

Mat 12:30  He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Matthew 24 tells us quite plainly what to look for and what to avoid.

Mar 13:32  But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Mar 13:33  Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

 Hello my friend.

 You make a valid point. However, I would also point out that God expects us to read and understand His word. We can't just throw up our arms and say "it's to hard" and give up.

 This really hi-lights the fact that we must take His word literally and not add or assume. Once we do this, we will never fully get it 100% to the point where we all agree, but at least we will be in a very good position to debate the "small details", and get as close to His Truth as possible.

 An excellent way to get to the truth is to not get stuck on a single verse or scripture, and not to come to scriptures with our pre-conceived ideas and notions of what we want the Bible to say,  (as I'm sure you know) - we can cross reference and corroborate many scriptures with each other.

 Good to have you back my friend.

 Bronzesnake

[Soldier4Christ]

I have seen so many different attempts to interpret the book of Revelations. Some point at one specific denomination or another. Some point at one specific nation or another. Each time a major war occurs their are some people that come out saying this is it, this is the start of Armeggedon.

Everyone seems to have their own ideas based on their understanding of the world around us as we understand it today. These ideas keep changing as the world changes.

I want to make a major point here:

Eph 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13  Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Next I want to point out that there are only two churches. I am not talking denominations here but churches. There is the church that is comprised of those that are with God. The other church is comprised with those that are with Satan.
Some say I don't believe in Satan or I don't follow Satan. I go with the Bible on this:

Mat 12:30  He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Matthew 24 tells us quite plainly what to look for and what to avoid.

Mar 13:32  But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Mar 13:33  Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

 Hello my friend.

 You make a valid point. However, I would also point out that God expects us to read and understand His word. We can't just throw up our arms and say "it's to hard" and give up.

 This really hi-lights the fact that we must take His word literally and not add or assume. Once we do this, we will never fully get it 100% to the point where we all agree, but at least we will be in a very good position to debate the "small details", and get as close to His Truth as possible.

 An excellent way to get to the truth is to not get stuck on a single verse or scripture, and not to come to scriptures with our pre-conceived ideas and notions of what we want the Bible to say,  (as I'm sure you know) - we can cross reference and corroborate many scriptures with each other.

 Good to have you back my friend.

 Bronzesnake

Amen. I did not mean to indicate anything other than that. I meant to direct my statement at those that take bits and pieces of Revelations, ignoring the rest of the scriptures and/or placing things they know of the physical world around them (which changes daily) into the meanings of a very few verses.

[nChrist]

Pastor Roger and Bronzesnake,

AMEN BROTHERS!!

You've both given me more beautiful material to study. I say beautiful, yet Revelation contains judgement and the horrible end for many, including satan. The beautiful portion is the future for those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. Revelation is the most controversial and misunderstood Book of the Holy Bible. I simply give thanks that we can study it and know during our study that we already belong to Jesus. We will not face HIS Wrath or HIS Sword, rather HIS Love and Care. The minions of darkness and evil will most certainly face HIS Righteous Wrath. Revelation is a reminder of urgency to share the Gospel of the Grace of God, shout it from the rooftops, and let JESUS be a Light in us for a dark and dying world.

The Great White Throne Judgement will be a place of dread and fear. Christians won't be there.

Christians will face the Bema Judgement where their works will be judged for rewards. There is no condemnation for those in Jesus Christ, and there is no condemnation at the Bema Judgement. There is no dread and fear at this judgement. Now and then, we are left with something very simple, but beautiful and precious beyond description:

Thanks be unto God for His unspeakable GIFT, Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour Forever!

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Soldier4Christ]

blackeyedpeas,

The Great White Throne Judgement will be a place of dread and fear. Christians won't be there.

I see there is something that we don't agree on.


Rev 20:11  And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Here it tells us that all are judge at the "great white throne" as the book of life is opened there. Those saved by grace have their names written in the book of life.

[nChrist]

Pastor Roger,

I think that I understand your disagreement. I tried to do far too much this week, and I neglected some details that would have clarified what I meant to say. My health is not good enough to do a detailed study on this right now. I'm positive that we both agree that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. What judgement we face will not be for the purpose of condemnation, rather for the purpose of rewards. Maybe we agree and maybe we don't on what I meant to say. Regardless, we are brothers in Christ, so I'll not contend with you. I believe firmly in more than one judgement and more than one resurrection in the end times. I'm almost sure that some of our disagreement is not disagreement at all. I really think it is my lack of details and poor choice of words.

The Saints in Christ will be judged at the beginning of the 1,000 year rule and reign of Jesus Christ. However, it will not be for the purpose of condemnation because we are already in Christ. I also believe in the Rapture of the Church which is the BODY OF CHRIST prior to the Tribulation Period, but please - I don't wish to contend over the timing of the Rapture. See 2 Corinthians 5:8 - I am confident that if I die today, I will be absent from the body and present with the Lord. If I have died before Christ comes for His Church, I'm confident that my body will be resurrected and changed. If I am alive when Christ comes for His Church, I'm confident that I will be caught up with my brothers and sisters to meet Jesus in the air.

The final judgement of the wicked will be at the close of the 1,000 year rule and reign of Jesus Christ. This judgement will be final and will most certainly involve condemnation. However, hosts will experience the wrath and sword of God long before this day. I would simply say again with thanks giving that there is no condemnation  for those who are in Christ. Brother, you and I will not face this condemnatory judgement.

2 Corinthians 5:8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Corinthians 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Corinthians 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Corinthians 15:53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Corinthians 15:54  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1 Corinthians 15:55  O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1 Corinthians 15:56  The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1 Corinthians 15:57  But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Brother, maybe this clears up any disagreement. Regardless, I apologize for leaving out details and causing confusion. I will try to make up for my lack of details when I feel just a little bit better, so please be patient.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Bronzesnake]

Pastor Roger...

 Thanks for clarifying brother.

 BEP. I pray that your health will improve, and I ask all who read this to add their prayers with my own, so that as a group, we may strengthen our resolve, and get BEP some results.

 Thanks for the kind, and encouraging words Tom.

Bronzesnake

[nChrist]

Bronzesnake,

Brother, I sincerely appreciate the prayers of all of you. I am happy but ill. I pray for the strength to make posts that are clear and correct, but I know that I fail sometimes. As a prayer request, the strength to clearly glorify Jesus is what I would ask for.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Soldier4Christ]

blackeyedpeas,

I understand the health problem and how it can affect a person. I am suffering from the Gulf War Illness. A problem that has hit many Gulf War Veterans. There are times that I cannot think straight, remember things, and sometimes cannot get out of bed because of it. Not complaining here just saying that I do understand. I join in prayers with Bronzesnake for your health and well being and in your request.

Thank you for clarifying your statement. I didn't mean to sound contentious either. I feel that such things are minor details anyway being that the most important is that we will not be subjected to the condemnation of hell by having our name in the Book of Life through the Grace of God through Jesus Christ.

May God bless you both.

[nChrist]

Pastor Roger,

It's a comfort to know that we can pray for each other, and I know that God loves to hear our prayers. Praying for each other is part of our joy of being brothers and sisters in Christ.

Brother, I simply want to say again that I give thanks for the men and women who serve our country. I have a soft spot in my heart for those who put their lives on the line in service to others. It will be my joy to remember you in prayer.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[FayeC]

Yes Bronzesnake, I certainly do believe those scriptures are talking about  "false prophets" whom Christians are believing and following today.

By "false prophets" I mean all those who teach a "pre" tribulation rapture.........There are no scriptures which even hint at such a thing.  

By "false prophets" I mean all those who refer to "the beast" as "Antichrist".  when in fact there are no scriptures to support that.  The "beast" in Rev.13 is called "son of perdition" and "man of sin", but NOT Antichrist.

By "false prophets" I mean those who teach the fable about how Antichrist will go into a rebuilt temple in Jeruselam, claiming to be God.  And how that he will stop the bloody animal sacrifices which the Jews will have instituted at that time.   That's rubbish...No scriptures exist to support that doctrine.

And finally, they teach that this imaginary Antichrist will suffer a mortal head wound, then come back to life.

WOW, how they came up with that interpretation is beyond me, seeing that  "heads" in Rev.17 mean "mountains".
So then, when John said,  "I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death", what he saw was that "one of the mountains/or countinents of people within Babylon were a wounded people.


In addition, they  teach the "myth" that God's chosen people are Arab "Jews" who follow the Torah....Then they build all end-time scriptures around THEM, when in fact there is not a solitary scripture in Revelation which mentions today's so-called "Jews".

In fact, all end-time scriptures relate to the sons of "Jacob"; those who followed Jesus Christ and are today "Christians".
 
Today's so-called Prophecy "experts" are MASTERS at twisting the scriptures, and for no other reason than  to prop up their false "pre" trib rapture doctrine.

"They cause my people to ere", God says of them in Jer.

They, and the ones who believe and follow them are those whom  Timothy is  talking about when he wrote, "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine: but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears:  And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto "fables."  11Tim.4:3-4

Now you asked me how I come to the conclusion that "Babylon", and Daniel's "little horn" are America.

I came to that conclusion because both the little horn and Babylon are described in like manner in Daniel and in Revelation. And because the things written about them in those two books resemble the things which have taken place in America.  Thus a combination of the scriptures in Dan.8 through 12, and particularly chapters 13, 17, and 18 of Revelation, leaves me to believe that those scriptures are talking about America.

As well, I believe that Ezekiel 38 depicts America.
In that chapter we see all nations; Europeans, Asians, Africans; ALL OF THEM Ezekiel says, flowing into it, just as peoples from all nations have flowed and are flowing into America.

Most importantly, I belive America is the same Babylon/little horn which Paul is referring to in 11Thes.2 when he describes the "falling away" from Christ.
After all, which other nation but America could Paul have been talking about in this verse?:
It surely cannot be the nation of Israel and the Jews, because Jews never believed on Christ to fall away from him in the first place!

"Let no man deceive you by any means", 11Thes.2:3 says,  "for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first....."  

That "falling away" commenced in America on June 25th, 1962 when prayer and the worship of Christ was removed from our public schools.

That date (June 25,1962) is the date which Daniel was referring to when he wrote  in ch.9:26-27,
"And after threescore and two weeks (after 62) shall Messiah be cut off.....and in the midst of the week (in the midst of the year) he (the little horn) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease."

Let's continue with the verse in 11Thes.2:3
"and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition".

Now let's continue to read  Daniel 9:26 which corresponds to 11Thes.2:3:
"and the people of the prince that shall come...."

Ah!, so it's NOT "Satan" that comes after the falling away, as today's false prophets would have us believe, but rather the "people" of Satan!

Thus, the "beast" of Rev.13 is not an "individual" man, but rather a "type" or "race" of man!  (hint) one of the mountains/countinents.

Well, who could "the beast"; or that race of "man"  be in Rev.13?!
Let's see how John describes him in that chapter.

John says, "he was an emotionally wounded man".  (I say "emotionally" wounded because the scriptures say, he was wounded, but "did live".  Thus he was never mortally wounded as the false prophets suggest.)

He says that an "image" was made of that race/man.... (the image; or portrayal of that of a wounded race, no less.)

Then all of Babylon received and accepted the image of that race of man, then used their minds and right hand to exalt him.
Daniel uses the word "exalt" several times when discribing him.

Finally, (because it's getting late, and I'm sleepy) the Apostle Paul speaks of him in that 11Thes 2 chapter when he wrote:
"the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all  that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

What that verse means is that, "that race of man called the son of perdition will sit in (among) God's people, opposing them, and exalting himself above them, and above all others,...... and knowing within himself that he is their God."

Finally I must quote what the Apostle Paul said in Romans 1 as he describes the condition of God's people at the end of the age, and of whom I believe are present day Americans.

He says, "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man.....and worshipped and served the creature (the beast) more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.  Amen"

















 

 

 

 

[Brother Love]

FayeC You Get "TWO"Thumbs DOWN

[Soldier4Christ]

By "false prophets" I mean all those who refer to "the beast" as "Antichrist".  when in fact there are no scriptures to support that.  The "beast" in Rev.13 is called "son of perdition" and "man of sin", but NOT Antichrist.

2Jo 1:7  For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

By "false prophets" I mean those who teach the fable about how Antichrist will go into a rebuilt temple in Jeruselam, claiming to be God.  And how that he will stop the bloody animal sacrifices which the Jews will have instituted at that time.  That's rubbish...No scriptures exist to support that doctrine.

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.






Mat 12:36  But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37  For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

[Bronzesnake]

FayeC....

 I don't know how you came to such a warped misinterpretation of the scriptures. You are utterly and completely confused my friend.

 Your following statements are just just an example of many, many others instances which point out just how lost you are in regards to the content and truth of the scriptures...

 

By "false prophets" I mean all those who teach a "pre" tribulation rapture.........There are no scriptures which even hint at such a thing.

 

 This would be semi-legitimate had you have simply disagreed with a pre-trib rapture - as the timing of the rapture is hotly disputed among Christians - but to state "There are no scriptures which even hint at such a thing" really shows the level of scriptural ignorance that causes your understanding of the Bible to be so far off base.

By "false prophets" I mean all those who refer to "the beast" as "Antichrist".  when in fact there are no scriptures to support that.  The "beast" in Rev.13 is called "son of perdition" and "man of sin", but NOT Antichrist.

 Do you believe that satan exists Faye? There would be no sin or lies or evil or Antichrist without satan. Because of satan, we are sinners, but he is sin - we are liars, but he is lies - we cane be evil, but he is evil - some of us are antichrists, but he is "the antichrist" This isn't rocket science Faye.

By "false prophets" I mean those who teach the fable about how Antichrist will go into a rebuilt temple in Jeruselam, claiming to be God.  And how that he will stop the bloody animal sacrifices which the Jews will have instituted at that time.  That's rubbish...No scriptures exist to support that doctrine.

You mean Jerusalem?
So "No scriptures exist to support that doctrine" huh?

2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.  

 

And finally, they teach that this imaginary Antichrist will suffer a mortal head wound, then come back to life.

 Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

 I guess "the beast" is America right?

Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.


Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

 Explain how America will perform miracles Faye - and only in the sight of the beast (America?) So, America can only perform miracles in the sight of...America?

 See how confused your interpretations are Faye?

 There's no point debating with you further FayeC - it's apparent that you are stubbornly trapped in your dream world and not open the the truth.

 Bronzesnake.