Revelations

[nChrist]

FayC,

I'm being nice by saying start over and learn your ABCs.

Moderator

[ollie]

I personaly agree that micro-chips are more then likley going to be the mark. But even if they weren't you cant be 100% sure so I wont go excepting any kind of mark from anyone. Im not willing to wage my salvation on a theory.

I wonder what was the speculation as to what the mark was before electronics?

[ollie]

Yes Bronzesnake, I certainly do believe those scriptures are talking about  "false prophets" whom Christians are believing and following today.

By "false prophets" I mean all those who teach a "pre" tribulation rapture.........There are no scriptures which even hint at such a thing.  

By "false prophets" I mean all those who refer to "the beast" as "Antichrist".  when in fact there are no scriptures to support that.  The "beast" in Rev.13 is called "son of perdition" and "man of sin", but NOT Antichrist.

By "false prophets" I mean those who teach the fable about how Antichrist will go into a rebuilt temple in Jeruselam, claiming to be God.  And how that he will stop the bloody animal sacrifices which the Jews will have instituted at that time.   That's rubbish...No scriptures exist to support that doctrine.

And finally, they teach that this imaginary Antichrist will suffer a mortal head wound, then come back to life.

WOW, how they came up with that interpretation is beyond me, seeing that  "heads" in Rev.17 mean "mountains".
So then, when John said,  "I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death", what he saw was that "one of the mountains/or countinents of people within Babylon were a wounded people.


In addition, they  teach the "myth" that God's chosen people are Arab "Jews" who follow the Torah....Then they build all end-time scriptures around THEM, when in fact there is not a solitary scripture in Revelation which mentions today's so-called "Jews".

In fact, all end-time scriptures relate to the sons of "Jacob"; those who followed Jesus Christ and are today "Christians".
 
Today's so-called Prophecy "experts" are MASTERS at twisting the scriptures, and for no other reason than  to prop up their false "pre" trib rapture doctrine.

"They cause my people to ere", God says of them in Jer.

They, and the ones who believe and follow them are those whom  Timothy is  talking about when he wrote, "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine: but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears:  And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto "fables."  11Tim.4:3-4

Now you asked me how I come to the conclusion that "Babylon", and Daniel's "little horn" are America.

I came to that conclusion because both the little horn and Babylon are described in like manner in Daniel and in Revelation. And because the things written about them in those two books resemble the things which have taken place in America.  Thus a combination of the scriptures in Dan.8 through 12, and particularly chapters 13, 17, and 18 of Revelation, leaves me to believe that those scriptures are talking about America.

As well, I believe that Ezekiel 38 depicts America.
In that chapter we see all nations; Europeans, Asians, Africans; ALL OF THEM Ezekiel says, flowing into it, just as peoples from all nations have flowed and are flowing into America.

Most importantly, I belive America is the same Babylon/little horn which Paul is referring to in 11Thes.2 when he describes the "falling away" from Christ.
After all, which other nation but America could Paul have been talking about in this verse?:
It surely cannot be the nation of Israel and the Jews, because Jews never believed on Christ to fall away from him in the first place!

"Let no man deceive you by any means", 11Thes.2:3 says,  "for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first....."  

That "falling away" commenced in America on June 25th, 1962 when prayer and the worship of Christ was removed from our public schools.

That date (June 25,1962) is the date which Daniel was referring to when he wrote  in ch.9:26-27,
"And after threescore and two weeks (after 62) shall Messiah be cut off.....and in the midst of the week (in the midst of the year) he (the little horn) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease."

Let's continue with the verse in 11Thes.2:3
"and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition".

Now let's continue to read  Daniel 9:26 which corresponds to 11Thes.2:3:
"and the people of the prince that shall come...."

Ah!, so it's NOT "Satan" that comes after the falling away, as today's false prophets would have us believe, but rather the "people" of Satan!

Thus, the "beast" of Rev.13 is not an "individual" man, but rather a "type" or "race" of man!  (hint) one of the mountains/countinents.

Well, who could "the beast"; or that race of "man"  be in Rev.13?!
Let's see how John describes him in that chapter.

John says, "he was an emotionally wounded man".  (I say "emotionally" wounded because the scriptures say, he was wounded, but "did live".  Thus he was never mortally wounded as the false prophets suggest.)

He says that an "image" was made of that race/man.... (the image; or portrayal of that of a wounded race, no less.)

Then all of Babylon received and accepted the image of that race of man, then used their minds and right hand to exalt him.
Daniel uses the word "exalt" several times when discribing him.

Finally, (because it's getting late, and I'm sleepy) the Apostle Paul speaks of him in that 11Thes 2 chapter when he wrote:
"the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all  that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

What that verse means is that, "that race of man called the son of perdition will sit in (among) God's people, opposing them, and exalting himself above them, and above all others,...... and knowing within himself that he is their God."

Finally I must quote what the Apostle Paul said in Romans 1 as he describes the condition of God's people at the end of the age, and of whom I believe are present day Americans.

He says, "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man.....and worshipped and served the creature (the beast) more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.  Amen"

"Most importantly, I belive America is the same Babylon/little horn which Paul is referring to in 11Thes.2 when he describes the "falling away" from Christ.
After all, which other nation but America could Paul have been talking about in this verse?:
It surely cannot be the nation of Israel and the Jews, because Jews never believed on Christ to fall away from him in the first place!"


Pauls was refering to a spiritual falling away within the ecclessia, (church), not a secular nation falling away. God's word covers things spiritual not natural.

The falling away happened with the apostasy and rise to secular and spiritual power of the church at Rome during the crumbling of imperial Rome.

















 

[2nd Timothy]

I personaly agree that micro-chips are more then likley going to be the mark. But even if they weren't you cant be 100% sure so I wont go excepting any kind of mark from anyone. Im not willing to wage my salvation on a theory.

I wonder what was the speculation as to what the mark was before electronics?

Not sure about that....but I remember as a child when barcodes became fashionable, many thought we would be forced to get a tattoo of a barcode on the hand.

Its really not that far of a stretch to see how implanted chip technology could used in this fashion.   Especially since the purpose of current technology is geared for cashless transactions and ID.  

Grace and Peace!

[Soldier4Christ]

I personaly agree that micro-chips are more then likley going to be the mark. But even if they weren't you cant be 100% sure so I wont go excepting any kind of mark from anyone. Im not willing to wage my salvation on a theory.

I wonder what was the speculation as to what the mark was before electronics?

Not sure about that....but I remember as a child when barcodes became fashionable, many thought we would be forced to get a tattoo of a barcode on the hand.

Its really not that far of a stretch to see how implanted chip technology could used in this fashion.   Especially since the purpose of current technology is geared for cashless transactions and ID.  

Grace and Peace!

Prior to that I remember that it was considered a tattoed number not unlike what was placed on prisoners in the death camps of Nazi Germany. Some believed it would consist of triple 6's with additional numbers.

[2nd Timothy]

I do find it interesting that the greek used to describe MARK in the passage of Revelation also means stake/sharpen to a point etc.

charax
khar'-ax
From “charasso” (to sharpen to a point; akin to G1125 through the idea of scratching); a stake, that is, (by implication) a palisade or rampart (millitary mound for circumvallation in a siege): - trench.

Stake in in the hand or forehead?  This is how chip implants would be administered....with a needle!

[nChrist]

2nd Timothy,

Brother, that's very interesting. They already have a chip like that used to identify pets. I understand it's about the size of a grain of rice and can be read with a scanner of some sort. I think they place it in the neck of the animal.

So, the technology is already here.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[FayeC]

Bronzesnake,

I've tried to make myself as clear as I possible can, but it appears you still don't get it.

Again, those things spoken of in 11Thes.2 happened to the nation where the "falling away from Christ" occured.  And as I explained before, that nation has to be America.  And the "falling away" had to have commenced after America cut off Christ and removed prayer from our nation's schools.

What does 11Thes.2:3 say will happen after the falling away?
It says, "the man of sin; the son of perdition (the beast) will be revealed.

And as I explained before, "the beast" is a race of "man".

Thus, after America took away school prayer in 62, that race of "man" called "the beast" in Rev.13 "revealed" himself.  In other words, "he made known his intentions".

Dan.12:11 says, "And from the time that the daily sacrifice (daily prayer) shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate "set up", there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days."

I was meditating on that scripture awhile back, and just out of curosity I counted 1,290 days forward from June 25,1962, (the day that America banned school prayers) and the date fell on January 6,1966, (the day of Epiphany).  Interesting eh?

So then, to clear up any misunderstanding you may have, I'm saying that:

1.  "The beast" with the number 666 is "a race", NOT an individual.

2.  It is "America" which "set up" the beast, and causes all of us to worship him.  (Keep in mind that Daniel discribes how that the beast is "exalted").  Thus Rev.13 is saying that "America" causes ALL to "exalt" him.

Pay close attention to what Paul is saying in Thes.2:4:

(the son of perdition) "Who "opposeth" and "exalteth" himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God".

Quiet simply, that scripture is saying that "the beast is sitting in America, (among) God's people, (those that are "called by God's name").  and that he is opposing and exalting himself above God's people, as well as all men, and knowing within himself that he (his race) is America's God.

The "offspring" of America's Founding Fathers have a lot to repent of today, for our generation is truly honoring one race of man above ourselves and above all others in our society. Whereas  today he is "the head and not the tail"
And as the result, that race has come to be worshipped more than Christ.

America sets aside a full month out of the year to honor his history.

Our children are required to celebrate him in our schools, where once Christ was celebrated.

America's workplace must celebrate and show him favortism as well, and in many instances caucasians are required to attend "sensitivity" classes to appease him.

He is celebrated in our homes and in our churches.
White congregations are frequently holding "reconciliation" services to honor him.

They corrupt our daughters, and we hold our tongues.

Our government honors him.
Our universities honor him.

I could say more, but I'm sure that by now you get the picture.

If not, to help you out here's some verses from Daniel which speak of America/God's people and the end-time "beast".

Dan.8
8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, (America)which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person to whom they shall not give the honor of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.

24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his faathers' fathers; she shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches, yea, and he shall forcast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.

26 Yea, they that feed of the portion of his meat shall destroy him, and his army shall overflow and many shall fall down slain.  (hint Civil War)

36 And the king shall do according to his will, and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper until the indignation be accomplished.

37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall magnify himself above all.

8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences shall stand up.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power; and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many.

9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come, shall destroy the city and the sanctuary: and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

11:14 And in those times there shall many stand up against the king of the south: also the robbers of thy people shall exalt themselves to establish the vision. (Civil Rights movement)

15 So the king of the north shall come, and shall cast up a mount, and take the most fenced cities: and the arms of the south shall not withstand, neither his chosen people, neither shall thre be any strength to withstand.

17 He shall also set his face to enter with the strength of his whole kingdom, and upright ones with him; thus shall he do: and he shall give him the daughter of women, corrupting her: but she shall not stand on his side, neither be for him.

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

12:7 And when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.



























 

[2nd Timothy]

source: http://www.hallindseyoracle.com/

Where is America in Bible Prophecy?
One of the questions I am asked the most often in regard to the outline of Scripture for the last days is the question; "Where is America in Bible Prophecy?

This is a difficult question, mostly because it has such a difficult answer. I love my country, and I'd love to find references to it in the last days. But it isn't there. And that seems to be quite a mystery, given that we are at the moment the most powerful nation on earth, by every conceivable measure.

There are some who try and find America in Scripture. I'll outline a few of these views for you.

America, the wide and smooth?

Some point to Isaiah 18, which speaks of a people "tall and smooth" who are "feared far and wide." The passage says these people are "a powerful nation whose land the rivers divide" that will one day bring gifts to the Messiah when He reigns from Mount Zion.

Those who hold this view, point to the fact the United States is divided by the Mississippi, to America's power and say we are the people "feared far and wide" of whom Isaiah was speaking. But this view only works if you ignore the first verse of Chapter 18. It clearly identifies the powerful nation divided by a river as Cush, or Ethiopia. At the time of Isaiah, Ethiopia was part of the Egyptian empire and the river referred to is without doubt the Nile.

Tarshing America

Another view says that America is identified by the prophet Ezekiel in Ezekiel 38:13. Ezekiel speaks of the "merchants of Tarshish and all the young lions thereof" who launch a diplomatic protest at the time of the Gog-Magog invasion of Israel. Some point to the fact that Tarshish was the westernmost trading and seafaring nation of the ancient world. From there, Tarshish becomes Britain. After all, Britain is the westernmost point on the Continent. And the symbol of Britain is a lion. Consequently, "all the young lions thereof" become the former British colonies, like Australia, Canada and, of course, the United States. Therefore, ipso facto, the merchants of Tarshish and all the young lions thereof must be referring to America.

But this doesn't work, either. First and foremost, nobody can pinpoint with any degree of accuracy the location of Tarshish. The only thing we are sure of is that it isn't Britain. The most recent archeological evidence puts ancient Tarshish in Spain, which, while close, doesn't quite win the cigar.

The eagle has landed

Another popular candidate for a biblical America is found in Revelation 12:13-17. In this exercise in applied imagination, we can find America, and she is busily engaged in an heroic effort to save Israel. If you accept the interpretation that includes America, that is.

This passage states that during the Tribulation, God will provide a means of escape for the Jewish remnant in Israel. It says they will be carried into the wilderness on the "wings of a great eagle." Misinterpreting this verse makes it possible to have the United States supplying a military airlift of Israelis to safety -- on the "wings of an eagle." You can make this work only by ignoring the fact that Scripture interprets Scripture. And the Scripture already identifies who has the wings of an eagle.

In Deuteronomy 32:11, God identifies the bearer of Israel on eagles' wings. "As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad on her wings, taketh them, and beareth them on her wings, So the Lord alone did lead him [Israel] and there was no strange god with him." It is a nice picture, and in keeping with our own self-image, to see America as Israel's savior during the Tribulation. But it is clearly incorrect.

Babylon, N.Y.

Probably the most widely accepted explanation of America in Bible prophecy uses Revelation Chapter 18 to show that the United States is really "Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots."

The reason this symbol is the most widely accepted symbol of the United States is because the shoe seems to fit. Consider the evidence offered in support of this view, because it is compelling. Revelation 18:2 opens with the angelic declaration that "Babylon the Great is fallen."

Verse 3 describes Babylon the great thusly: "all the nations of the earth have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornications with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies." This doesn't seem to be much of a reach, on first glance.

America has sunk to moral depths scarcely imaginable a generation ago. We kill babies in the womb when they are socially inconvenient. The nuclear family is all but extinct. Morals are situational, if they are relevant at all. We choose as entertainment stories about adultery, fornication, violence and virtually every form of evil.

We are the world's leading exporters of filth and pornography, not to mention being the world's largest arms dealer and exporter of destruction and mayhem. Politically, we have just emerged from one of the most shameful and immoral presidential campaign in living memory.

Not America's vision

The description goes on, referencing the fact she "sits as a queen and no widow." One could argue the U.S. sits as a queen (it's probably more politically correct than a king, anyway) and no widow, as America has seen no war on her shores in living memory. Since the Apostle John also refers to the fact that "ships and sailors and as many as trade by sea" will see the city burning, this view makes New York City Babylon the Great.

The original Babylon still stands, in Iraq, but nowhere near the sea. And, just outside New York City is the city of Babylon, N.Y.! So, there you have it! And it all seems to make sense, really. Provided you are looking at prophecy as if it were given from the perspective of Washington. But it isn't.

In Bible prophecy everything orients from Israel. John's vision of the apocalypse is from the perspective of Israel, during the time of Jacob's trouble, not America's. But the most conclusive reason is given in Revelation 17:18.

John says Mystery Babylon is really a woman -- that great harlot who will reign over the cities from earth. But John wrote that the great city was clearly Rome, and that is the city that will reign over the earth in the last days.

I can imagine the heaps of criticism this column will engender.

America faces threats from mad bombers, mad dictators, a unified Russian-Chinese military adversary and a host of other threats. Who wants to be the one to say that, biblically speaking, there is no reason to think one of them isn't going to happen? But America is not a major player in the last days -- she hasn't even a bit part.

I personally believe that one explanation could be that our country and its leadership will be so decimated following the Rapture that we will simply cease to be a major influence overnight.

I prefer that over the alternative.
********************************************

[coptic]

So then, to clear up any misunderstanding you may have, I'm saying that:

1.  "The beast" with the number 666 is "a race", NOT an individual.

2.  It is "America" which "set up" the beast, and causes all of us to worship him.  (Keep in mind that Daniel discribes how that the beast is "exalted").  Thus Rev.13 is saying that "America" causes ALL to "exalt" him.

I think your hypothesis is creative at best.

But, I won't criticize your ideas.  I'll simply state another interpretation of the book of Revelations.  The one which I believe to be consistent with the intent of it's author.

The natural tendency of people who read this book is to assume that its providing an account of what is still to transpire in our own future.  And so its been understood, down through the ages.  The only problem though is that every generation has assumed that the book is referring to what will happen in its own time.  And so far, of course, every generation has been wrong.  Even though each generation thinks that surely it will be the one.

Our own generation is no exception.  The book of Revelation was used this way by David Koresh and the Branch Davidians, by Marshall Applewhite and Heavens Gate, by most evangelical preachers that you can hear by turning on your TV who talk about the book of revelation, and by scores of serious interpreters of prophesy whose books line the shelves of most Christian bookstores, including second and third editions when the predictions of the first editions have had been modified in light of their failure to come true.

Let's look at some of the imagery in the book.

Chapter 17 Verse 5: And on her forehead a name was written, "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF THE PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."
Chapter 17 Verse 6: I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.
Chapter 17 Verse 9: The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman is seated
Chapter 17 Verse 18: The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth

Who then is this great whore?  Who has committed fornication with all the kings of the earth, is drunk with the blood of the martyrs, bedecked with fine clothes and jewelry?

Which city ruled the world at the end of the 1st century when this book was written?  A city that had persecuted the Christians, leading the flow of their blood?  A city, in fact, that was known throughout antiquity to have been built on the seven hills?  The city of Rome.  Any ancient reader would have recognized this imagery.  Rome, otherwise known as Babylon in the scripture because in the Hebrew bible the enemy of the people of God was the city of Babylon, which destroyed Jerusalem in the 6th century BC and destroyed the first temple.  So Babylon became a codename for the enemy of God.  And now, it’s applied here to the city of Rome, which is a modern Babylon.

What about the great enemy of God, the antichrist?

Chapter 13 Verse 18 : This calls for wisdom: let anyone with understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a person. It’s the number six hundred and sixty-six.

Who was the first emperor of Rome to persecute Christians?  It was the emperor Nero.
When you spell the name Caesar Nero in Hebrew letters and add up the letters it adds up to 666.  According to texts from the 1st and 2nd centuries he was believes, in some Jewish circles, to be about to come back from the dead to again rule Rome and persecute the people of god.

Where did this method for transliterating the letters to numbers?

Gematria is a system for calculating the numerical equivalence of letters, words, and phrases. This system is used for the purpose of gaining insight into interrelating concepts.

This may not be as exciting believing that the antichrist is someone living in our own day, or is someone who is soon to come.  Over the past 50 years we have had devoted Christian authors arguing that 666 must refer to:
Hitler
Mussolini
Henry Kissinger
Saddam Hussein
And even Ronald Wilson Reagan (whose name each has 6 letters in them)

But!!  If we are interested in known what the author of Revelations himself meant, it makes sense to think that he is talking about something going on in his own world and time.

What do you think of this?

What do I think?  I think these discussions are fascinating and I hope I have not just offended anyone.  

[Last Daze]

The ten horns represent "the beast", the ones whom are "worshipped"  in Rev.13.

"Babylon", the "woman", and the "harlot", are one and the same intinty.

Who or “what” Babylon is, is not the question.  The point I was trying to make is that Babylon is destroyed by the very beast she is “riding” (the 10 horns on the beast to be exact.)  It then does not make sense that she is this beast with the 7 heads and 10 horns and yet is destroyed by the 10 horns of the 7 headed beast.  Now, the language is, of course, symbolic.  However the ‘woman’ is added to the picture later on in Chap 17.  She was not there to begin with.  She is that ‘great city’ which reigns over the kings (kingdoms) of the earth.  In other words she is a, if not the, dominant global superpower of her time.  She is shown riding the beast which symbolizes her dominion over the beast kingdoms until her destruction.  Her affluence is shown in Chapter 18 and we see that she is the dominant economic superpower of the time.  She is not the same as the beast which destroys her.  The beast symbol in Revelation is layered as it represents the merger of the beast kingdoms of Daniel, which is where the seven heads come from.  They are the seven heads of the four separate beasts of Daniel.  These beasts of Daniel also represent kingdoms or empires or great nations.  The beast from which the little horn (or Anti-Christ) comes from is the fourth and terrible beast of Daniel which has the 10 horns (the same 10 horns in Revelation).  These four beasts are merged in Revelation into one 7 headed beast which represents an attempt at global unity.  Also, the beast represents an entity or demonic power which can be tied back to Revelation Chap 9 where we are told who the beast that was, is not, yet is and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit is.  He is the destroying angel   or the angel of perdition. He is the king of the pit.  Finally we can see the beast man, or the one who will claim dominion over the beast kingdom and will speak great things against The Almighty and the hosts of heaven.  He will exercise the power of the beast and of Satan and shall work miracles through the powers of devils and deceive many.  He is aptly named the son of perdition.  Now there is a lot more to this but I just wanted to show that the idea that the beast is the woman of Chapter 17 does not line up.  She is a separate entity.






















































 

[coptic]

Nobody has any thoughts?  Are my beliefs consistent with the majority of the people who are reading this thread?  It doesn't seem like it.  Just wondering if anyone thinks I'm a nut.  I'm intrigued by the historical Jesus.

[2nd Timothy]

I'm intrigued by the historical Jesus.

 

[Shylynne]

I'm intrigued by the historical Jesus.

 

 

[coptic]

I'm intrigued by the historical Jesus.

 

I guess what I mean is "historical Jesus" in the context of "what did Jesus really say and do"?
And, obviously, we can learn this from the gospels (our "Q"uelle).

The prevailing theory in the study of the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke is that Mark was the first gospel, Matthew and Luke are rewritten versions of Mark.  But there are many sayings in Matthew and in Luke that are NOT in Mark.  Furthermore, if you have had the opportunity to read the Gospel of Thomas you will find MANY MANY more Jesus sayings.

Whether or not you believe that these were actually Jesus sayings depends on what you think of the Gnostic Christians and the authenticity of the Gospel of Thomas.  Some of you may not believe the Gopsel of Thomas to be authentic, and I think that is a personal decision.  Either way, I think its fun to study.  Don't you?