Christians Against Israel?

[JudgeNot]

Reba Asks:

What does this verse mean to you?
Heb 12:22
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
KJV

Well,
If you put it in context with the verses before and after, it is a message against saying "No" to God.  Am I close?

Heb 12:14-29
Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.  See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.  See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.  Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. He could bring about no change of mind, though he sought the blessing with tears.  
You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm; to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, because they could not bear what was commanded: "If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned."  The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, "I am trembling with fear."
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven?  At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens." The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken--that is, created things--so that what cannot be shaken may remain.  
Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, for our "God is a consuming fire."

Very beautiful scripture!  Thanks for reminding us, Reba!  

Signed,
X
 

[Reba]

Are you in THAT Jerusalem?

[JudgeNot]

Are you in THAT Jerusalem?

No, Ma'am.  I'm still stuck in Concord, California.  

[ollie]

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

Israel is still God's chosen people. Bible prophecy clearly states that Israel will be center stage for the end times of this age. We must also remember that the man, Christ Jesus, came unto HIS own. HIS own were Jews.

There is much Biblical prophecy yet to be fulfilled with Israel. There are also promises of God to Israel that will be most definitely fulfilled.

Heads of State may or may not believe in Biblical prophecy and the promises of God to Israel. It is clear that many do not. It is also apparent that many churches either do not understand or disbelieve Biblical prophecy and the promises of God to Israel. I would quickly state that I don't understand all of the Biblical details about Israel. However, I would state with certainty that GOD isn't through with Israel.

As an overly simple statement, I would say it's not smart to go against Israel, nor would it be smart to neglect their needs. Regardless of how small Israel may be, it will most certainly be the world center stage for Biblical prophecy. No power on earth will be able to change the outcome. God's will and purpose for Israel will be fulfilled, regardless of how many nations stand against it or attack it.

Sister Reba, I'm well aware that most people in Israel don't accept Jesus Christ as GOD, Lord and Saviour. However, I'm also aware that God isn't through with Israel. If it came down to a fight with Israel, I would have to fight on the side of Israel.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Israel is still God's chosen people...Amen Tom, i would have to agree strongly with Tom on this one. Paul says God blinded the Jews so the Gentiles could be grafted in, to provoke them to jealousy... and to watch that we as Christians dont boast against the first branches.

Rom 11:25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27  For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28  As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29  For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.
Rom 11:30  For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31  Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32  For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Rom 11:33  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34  For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Rom 11:35  Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Rom 11:36  For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.

These verses were omitted.

 Romans 11:20.  Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
 21.  For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
 22.  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
 23.  And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Does faith play a part in God's grafting Israel back? If belief, what happens? If not belief, what happens? What must they believe in to be grafted in again?

Ollie

[Reba]

What promise did Jesus not complete?

[JudgeNot]

Ollie asks a question He already knows the answer to:

What must they believe in to be grafted in again?

Jesus.
John 3:16
 

[Shammu]

I suppose since I started this thread without giving an opinion one way or another, I should at least chip in with my take; I am disappointed in the Presbyterians.  I agree that that Israel is chosen by God, and although the majority of Israel still strays from The Word, we know from prophecy that it will not always be so.  As a Christian I feel bound to Israel, scripturally and spiritually.  One day we will all occupy Jerusalem as one flock.  
To me, Christians siding with Muslims against the Jewish nation of Israel just doesn’t play.  It goes against everything I’ve ever been taught – from Genesis through Revelation: Moses leading the chosen from Egypt to the 144,000 - 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes...  

Hi X,

What does this verse mean to you?

Heb 12:22

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
KJV

Okay this is what this means to me. I am sure that others will have a different meaning.
Hebrews 12:22 The covenant in Christ gives us direct access to God ,
Hebrews 12:23 makes us members of the Christian community, God's children, a sanctified people,
Hebrews 12:24 who have Jesus as mediator to speak for us.
Hebrews 12:25-26 Not to heed the voice of the risen Christ is a graver sin than the rejection of the word of Moses.
Hebrews 12:28-29 Though Christians fall away, God's kingdom in Christ will remain and his justice will punish those guilty of deserting it.

[ollie]

Ollie asks a question He already knows the answer to:

What must they believe in to be grafted in again?

Jesus.
John 3:16
 

Therefore are we to be any different to Israel in rejecting Christ than we are to any gentile rejecting Christ?

God is not a respector of persons. Why all the loyalty to an anti-Christ nation just because they refer to themselves as Israel? If a remnant within Israel has to believe in Christ to be grafted back in to be part of God's people, how does that set them apart from the gentile believer. Why the special attention to Israel when there is neither jew nor gentile in Christ?

 

ollie

[JudgeNot]

God is not a respector of persons. Why all the loyalty to an anti-Christ nation just because they refer to themselves as Israel? If a remnant within Israel has to believe in Christ to be grafted back in to be part of God's people, how does that set them apart from the gentile believer. Why the special attention to Israel when there is neither jew nor gentile in Christ?

Ollie; I understand your point perfectly and respect your point of view.  However, personally I don’t see Israel as any more or less evil than any other nation.  True, they have a proportionally fewer number of Christians than some western nations, but given the choice of supporting, say Turkey or Israel my personal and highly biased choice is Israel.  Maybe I can’t explain why – maybe it’s something like preferring apple pie over cherry pie.  
Or maybe it is because I’ve been taught that the nation of Israel has to exist so ‘the cows can come home’ so to speak.
 

[Evangelist]

God is not a respector of persons. Why all the loyalty to an anti-Christ nation just because they refer to themselves as Israel? If a remnant within Israel has to believe in Christ to be grafted back in to be part of God's people, how does that set them apart from the gentile believer. Why the special attention to Israel when there is neither jew nor gentile in Christ?

Simply, because God chose (through Abraham) his descendants to be His people. In the course of that choosing, God intended fully to bless all other nations and peoples, and He did....but He also made certain specific promises to the nation of Israel that pertain to the physical, not just the spiritual.  Among those promises are that Israel (as a group of people and nation) would NEVER be destroyed completely, that a direct descendent of David would sit (on this earth) on the throne (as King of Israel) and administer Gods law perfectly to all peoples and nations. Also, that although Israel would be punished for their rejection of Messiah, and dispersed, they would be brought back together again from everywhere they had been sent.

In short....God does not want His people Israel despised, rejected, or fought against. "...I will bless them that bless thee, and curse them that curse thee..."

In Mat. 25 Jesus speaks to the issue of allowing certain people into the Kingdom that He will institute on this earth...called the "judgment of the nations".  Read it carefully, and you will notice that the criteria for admission is how those people (nations) treated His brethren...ie: the Jews.

Also note that admission is not tantamount to salvation, but only participation in the Millennial Kingdom.

[Reba]

1 Peter 2:9

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
KJV

[Reba]

God is not a respector of persons. Why all the loyalty to an anti-Christ nation just because they refer to themselves as Israel? If a remnant within Israel has to believe in Christ to be grafted back in to be part of God's people, how does that set them apart from the gentile believer. Why the special attention to Israel when there is neither jew nor gentile in Christ?

Simply, because God chose (through Abraham) his descendants to be His people. In the course of that choosing, God intended fully to bless all other nations and peoples, and He did....but He also made certain specific promises to the nation of Israel that pertain to the physical, not just the spiritual.  Among those promises are that Israel (as a group of people and nation) would NEVER be destroyed completely, that a direct descendent of David would sit (on this earth) on the throne (as King of Israel) and administer Gods law perfectly to all peoples and nations. Also, that although Israel would be punished for their rejection of Messiah, and dispersed, they would be brought back together again from everywhere they had been sent.

In short....God does not want His people Israel despised, rejected, or fought against. "...I will bless them that bless thee, and curse them that curse thee..."

In Mat. 25 Jesus speaks to the issue of allowing certain people into the Kingdom that He will institute on this earth...called the "judgment of the nations".  Read it carefully, and you will notice that the criteria for admission is how those people (nations) treated His brethren...ie: the Jews.

Also note that admission is not tantamount to salvation, but only participation in the Millennial Kingdom.

I just reread Matt 25 and i can not find where Jesus talks about Himself having a earthly kingdom. I do know He tells us and Pilate His Kingdom is not of this world.

[Evangelist]

Isa 9:7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Psa 132:11 The LORD hath sworn [in] truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.

Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 19:11   And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12   His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13   And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14   And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15   And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Of course, this is a period of time preceeding the GWTJ, consists of 1,000 years of earthly reign.  As an orthodox preterist, I wouldn't expect you to agree, though.

Mat 25:31   When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32   And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33   And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34   Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

And this denotes the point in time when Jesus returns to the earth with His saints (noted in Rev and elsewhere) to begin that Millennial reign.

[Reba]

Where does Jesus say His kingdom is earthly?


 Jesus does tell us this..
John 18:36

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
KJV

In the above verse...

Jesus claims a kingdom  tells us it is not of this world, tells us he has servants.

[Evangelist]

Reba:

In the above verse...
Jesus claims a kingdom  tells us it is not of this world, tells us he has servants.

And the last words of that verse which you don't seem to address, are..."NOW (meaning time, the here and now, which was 2000 years ago) is my kingdom not from hence (here, earthly)".

Where does Jesus say His kingdom is earthly?

Jesus is the Word, right?
The Word of God.
The Word of God (bible) is the inspired Word, correct? "ALL scripture is God-breathed..."

There were plenty of scriptures (inspired Word that speak of Jesus) posted that tell of a coming earthly kingdom and reign.

Do you believe in the Trinity?