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Author Topic: Being the Body  (Read 3351 times)
Allinall
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« on: May 10, 2004, 05:11:14 PM »

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Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be uninformed.  You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were led.  Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit.
Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone.  To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.  To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--Jews or Greeks, slaves or free--and all were made to drink of one Spirit.  For the body does not consist of one member but of many. If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body.  And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body.  If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell?  But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose.  If all were a single member, where would the body be?  As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.
The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."  On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it, that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.  If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.  Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?  But earnestly desire the higher gifts.And I will show you a still more excellent way.  If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.  For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.  When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

1 Corinthians 12-13

I've lumped these two passages together, but they are best read this way.  Especially if you include chapter 14, but for sake of time and space, I just posted these.  Here's my thought:

How does the Body work best?  It works best when each member functions in its place with its gifts given by its Father.  The foot works best doing foot things, for the benefit of the body.  The eye works best when it watches out for the foot.  The hand works best when it protects the eye and helps out the foot in the task at hand.

How is this body working?  Weeeeelll...seems the foot is upset with the eye for its lack of understanding where its headed, and the eye's upset with the foot for not having the proper perspective of the journey at hand, while the hand's ticked off with having to do all of the carrying of this great burden while the eye and the foot argue about things most important to them.  A body does not work if it is divided.  A body works only when it is unifited in the task that it has to perform.

So I ask.  Is this body performing the task it was made to perform?
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« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2004, 07:19:48 PM »

A body can only be unified if it is bound together by one entity. Jesus told us there would be many people who say 'Lord'Lord' but never KNEW Him. It is those who do not have the holy Spirit in them but only pay Him lip service whom we are fighting. We are either ruled by the Holy Spirit or the devil. The devil indeed can be a wolf in sheep's clothing. The sheep are His true believers. When wolves are dressed in sheep's clothing, they do indeed appear to be believers. It is they who try to divide us. But I find the real believers DO stick together. They are the ones who worship Christ alone. So even though it looks like there is division among believers, it is only wolves trying to get into the sheep pen disguised as sheep who create division. They are the ones who will say that we don't know what we are talking about even though we believe Jesus's words. Therefore, we have to stand firm and keep our eyes on Christ and His words.
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« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2004, 09:18:36 PM »

I command you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his Kingdom: preach the word; be urgent in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with all patience and teaching. For the time will come when they will not listen to the sound doctrine, but, having itching ears, will heap up for themselves teachers after their own lusts; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside to fables. But you be sober in all things, suffer hardship, do the work of an evangelist, and fulfill your ministry. For I am already being offered, and the time of my departure has come. I have fought the good fight. I have finished the course. I have kept the faith. (2Ti 4:1-7)

Beloved, while I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I was constrained to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. For there are certain men who crept in secretly, even those who were long ago written about for this condemnation... These are hidden rocky reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you, shepherds who without fear feed themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn leaves without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; wild waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the blackness of darkness has been reserved forever... But you, beloved, remember the words which have been spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ. They said to you that "In the last time there will be mockers, walking after their own ungodly lusts." These are they who cause divisions, and are sensual, not having the Spirit. But you, beloved, keep building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit. Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life. On some have compassion, making a distinction, and some save, snatching them out of the fire with fear, hating even the clothing stained by the flesh. (Jud 1:3-23)

But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work. (2Ti 3:14-17)

Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all of you, for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God. Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them. (Act 20:26-30)

I therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beg you to walk worthily of the calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and humility, with patience, bearing with one another in love; being eager to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you also were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all. But to each one of us was the grace given according to the measure of the gift of Christ... He gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, shepherds and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, to the work of serving, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a full grown man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we may no longer be children, tossed back and forth and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error; but speaking truth in love, we may grow up in all things into him, who is the head, Christ; (Eph 4:1-15)


Can you have true unity between two gospels?  One of grace and one of grace plus works (Baptism, Confirmation, the Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Order, and Matrimony).


I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. (Gal 1:6-7)

Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? (Gal 3:2-3)

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:8-10)

Therefore let it be known to you, brothers, that through this Man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and from all things from which you could not (by the Law of Moses) be justified, by Him everyone that believes is justified. Watch therefore, lest there come upon you that which was spoken of in the prophets: "Behold, you despisers, and marvel and perish! For I will work a work in your days which you will by no means believe, though one were to declare it to you.' " ... On the coming Sabbath, almost all the city was assembled to hear the word of God. And the Jews, seeing the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and spoke against the things being said by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. But Paul and Barnabas, speaking boldly said, "It was necessary for the word of God to be spoken to you first; but since you thrust it away, and judge yourselves not worthy of eternal life; behold, we turn to the Gentiles. For so the Lord has commanded us: 'I have set you to be a light of the nations, that you should be for salvation to the end of the earth.' " Now when the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. And the word of the Lord was being spread throughout all the region. (Act 13:38-49)
« Last Edit: May 11, 2004, 09:34:03 AM by I_Believe » Logged

Religion is like a coconut.  You must break through the husk of man's traditions to get to the sweet milk & meat of the gospel of Christ.

These people draw near to me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrine rules made by men.
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« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2004, 10:26:45 PM »

A body can only be unified if it is bound together by one entity. Jesus told us there would be many people who say 'Lord'Lord' but never KNEW Him. It is those who do not have the holy Spirit in them but only pay Him lip service whom we are fighting. We are either ruled by the Holy Spirit or the devil. The devil indeed can be a wolf in sheep's clothing. The sheep are His true believers. When wolves are dressed in sheep's clothing, they do indeed appear to be believers. It is they who try to divide us. But I find the real believers DO stick together. They are the ones who worship Christ alone. So even though it looks like there is division among believers, it is only wolves trying to get into the sheep pen disguised as sheep who create division. They are the ones who will say that we don't know what we are talking about even though we believe Jesus's words. Therefore, we have to stand firm and keep our eyes on Christ and His words.

I agree with what you are saying, however, I have a hard time with the fact that you tend to say this any time someone disagrees with you.

You keep saying that you believe Jesus's words. Which words do you believe? Each translation of the Bible varies from the other. There are differences in the NIV, KJV, NKJV, etc. Which ones do you believe?
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« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2004, 10:33:30 PM »

There might be some words that are different in the different translations, but the gist of the meaning is the same. Also, there is not a lot of variance between the 4 gospels either. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, focus on different things. But I believe that everything we need to know is in ANY Bible. God is in control of the universe and He decides what He will reveal to us.
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« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2004, 10:36:35 PM »

There might be some words that are different in the different translations, but the gist of the meaning is the same. Also, there is not a lot of variance between the 4 gospels either. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, focus on different things. But I believe that everything we need to know is in ANY Bible. God is in control of the universe and He decides what He will reveal to us.

Nice dodge.
You said you believe all of His words. They are different in each translation.
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I'm not following a God that's imagined.
Can't invent His deity.
That's why Jesus is the final answer
To Who I want my God to be.
He's Who I want my God to be.
-  Who? by Peter Furler and Steve Taylor (Newsboys)
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« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2004, 11:05:10 PM »

Which do you consider the most important? The words or their meaning?
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« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2004, 11:53:16 PM »

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There might be some words that are different in the different translations, but the gist of the meaning is the same.

You apparently haven't read "The Message" yet, then. Some of the words which are changed do, in fact, change the meaning when compared with the King James.


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Heidi
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« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2004, 08:26:27 AM »

Please give me an example, Gracey.
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« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2004, 10:03:12 AM »

I started a poll in Bible Study about the different translations.

Perhaps we can discuss it there since I seem to have taken this thread off topic.

Sorry allinall.

Here is the Bible Study thread:
http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=20;action=display;threadid=3780
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I'm not following a God that's imagined.
Can't invent His deity.
That's why Jesus is the final answer
To Who I want my God to be.
He's Who I want my God to be.
-  Who? by Peter Furler and Steve Taylor (Newsboys)
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« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2004, 10:06:35 AM »

Jesus answered her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life." The woman said to him, "Sir, give me this water, so that I don't get thirsty, neither come all the way here to draw." Jesus said to her, "Go, call your husband, and come here." The woman answered, "I have no husband." Jesus said to her, "You said well, 'I have no husband,' for you have had five husbands; and he whom you now have is not your husband. This you have said truly." The woman said to him, "Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship." Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe me, the hour comes, when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, will you worship the Father. You worship that which you don't know. We worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour comes, and now is, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such to be his worshippers. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth." The woman said to him, "I know that Messiah comes," (he who is called Christ). "When he has come, he will declare to us all things." Jesus said to her, "I am he, the one who speaks to you." At this, his disciples came. They marveled that he was speaking with a woman; yet no one said, "What are you looking for?" or, "Why do you speak with her?" So the woman left her water pot, and went away into the city, and said to the people, "Come, see a man who told me everything that I did. Can this be the Christ?" They went out of the city, and were coming to him... From that city many of the Samaritans believed in him because of the word of the woman, who testified, "He told me everything that I did." So when the Samaritans came to him, they begged him to stay with them. He stayed there two days. Many more believed because of his word. They said to the woman, "Now we believe, not because of your speaking; for we have heard for ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world."(Joh 4:13-42)

Some believed because of the Word some believed because of the witness.

We know, brothers loved by God, that you are chosen, and that our Good News came to you not in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and with much assurance. You know what kind of men we showed ourselves to be among you for your sake. You became imitators of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit, so that you became an example to all who believe in Macedonia and in Achaia. For from you the word of the Lord has been declared, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith toward God has gone out; so that we need not to say anything. (1Th 1:4-8)

Our faith comes from the written Word , the spoken Word , the Word written on our hearts and the Word demonstrated through others.  They all must be in agreement.  The written Word (scripture) is the constant by which the others can be measured...whether they are from God or man.

God is not mocked.  He preserves His Word in spite of man not because of man.  There are some versions of the "bible" that are not God's Word but are man's.  The Spirit of God within us will guide us from error to truth if we submit to His leading.


And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds," then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more." Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin. (Heb 10:11-18)

For he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but in dealing with you we will live with him by the power of God. Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you fail to meet the test! (2Co 13:4-5)

Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies, but test everything; hold fast what is good. (1Th 5:19-21)

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. (1Jo 4:1)
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Religion is like a coconut.  You must break through the husk of man's traditions to get to the sweet milk & meat of the gospel of Christ.

These people draw near to me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrine rules made by men.
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« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2004, 10:53:27 AM »

Hi again, Heidi -

here are a few comparisons between KJV and The Message:

Modern King James

24  Jehovah shall make the rain of your land powder and dust. It shall come down from the heavens on you until you are destroyed.

10  I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

18  I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

The Message

24  From out of the skies GOD will rain ash and dust down on you until you suffocate.

10  It was Sunday and I was in the Spirit, praying. I heard a loud voice behind me, trumpet-clear and piercing:

18  I'm Alive. I died, but I came to life, and my life is now forever. See these keys in my hand? They open and lock Death's doors, they open and lock Hell's gates.

Note that I've used the "modern" Kings James, although I generally use the King James. In the first verse, KJ says "until you are destroyed" and The Message says "until you suffocate" - now the end result basically is the same, but the verse is slightly changed.

The same holds true for the others. While this this is not the case for all the verses in the Message, it's enough to make one careful about what one says they believe. In other words, in reading the Message, do you believe that the method will be "suffocation", or do you simply believe "you will be destroyed"?

All I really wanted to point out was that one should be careful about saying you believe everything in every version, when they don't always match.

A "translation" is simply that... a translation of the text - the translation being done by men. Now, in truth the King James Version is also a translation, but since I can't read ancient Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic I must rely on something. Since (in the west anyway) the King James has been widely accepted for a very long time, it's probably a good choice, but I think the American Standard Version may actually be somewhat closer to the original translations.

Versions are the sort of thing that could be debated forever.


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« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2004, 12:05:12 PM »

A body can only be unified if it is bound together by one entity. Jesus told us there would be many people who say 'Lord'Lord' but never KNEW Him. It is those who do not have the holy Spirit in them but only pay Him lip service whom we are fighting. We are either ruled by the Holy Spirit or the devil. The devil indeed can be a wolf in sheep's clothing. The sheep are His true believers. When wolves are dressed in sheep's clothing, they do indeed appear to be believers. It is they who try to divide us. But I find the real believers DO stick together. They are the ones who worship Christ alone. So even though it looks like there is division among believers, it is only wolves trying to get into the sheep pen disguised as sheep who create division. They are the ones who will say that we don't know what we are talking about even though we believe Jesus's words. Therefore, we have to stand firm and keep our eyes on Christ and His words.

You have effectively judged those who disagree with you doctrinally as being lost.  Granted, there are points of the salvation message that must be understood and accepted for that salvation to be of any affect.  However, in past posts, you have claimed salvation to be dependant upon baptism, and supported it with scriptures that were never meant to support such a concept.  Namely, because the bible does not teach that.  Those passages are misinterpreted and applied errantly to the book which states otherwise.  Seeing then we disagree on what God has made most simplistic...are you not calling Someone Lord without having ever known Him?  Note, I'm am not saying you are lost.  I am saying that you seek to add to the salvation God made simple an errant doctrine...much like the saved Jews at Galatia...You say it is they who try to divide us.  Who is "us" if we cannot agree on the simple truths of God's simple plan of salvation?

You say we are unified by One Entity.  God says we are unified in the diversity of that same Entity, and that body is reflective of the diverse, triune nature of that Entity, within its own diversity.  That is, many gifts are given, but not everyone of us possess each.  All are potential to be hoped for.  But each is given a diverse gift that the Spirit may be manifest, as we, by that Spirit, excersise those gifts for the benefit of the body.  Yet we fight, amongst the body, defending our position in the body, for the body, but at the cost of the functionality of that body.  And God is happy with us.  Because we do this, not in love, but in hopes of proving our point.  Argumentation without edification is useless.

This may seem harsh, but it is spoken/typed in love.  We fight with those we should lovingly win.  We lose them.  We call "bastard" what God may be calling "child" and hence, "brother."  We excersise the gifts He has given us, not in the love He spoke of through Paul in chapter 13, but for personal pride and gain in our standing amongst "brothers."  It is shame.  It is wrong.  We storm the gates of Hell, yes.  But we don't trample the lost along the way.  Smiley
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« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2004, 12:22:18 PM »

I_Believe,

You said:

Quote
Can you have true unity between two gospels?  One of grace and one of grace plus works (Baptism, Confirmation, the Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Order, and Matrimony).



No.  You cannot.  Which is not what I am talking about.  I know Whom I have believed, and I am at odds with this continual trashing of the Catholics by my brothers and sisters in Christ.  I neither support, nor agree with Catholic doctrine.  Shoot man, ask Tibby or Michael if I'm a Catholic supporter!   Cheesy  No.  I am not.  But I am also ABSOLUTELY NOT[/b] a Catholic trasher.

We are to excersise our gifts as a body in love to the glory of God as He builds His Church.  Hard to do when we're smacking those for whom He died, whether they be Catholic, Baptist, Muslim, Jewish or Buddhaisisstitissts.  Sorry.  Never can get the spelling of that one right.   Cheesy
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"that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death"
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« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2004, 12:36:52 PM »

I started a poll in Bible Study about the different translations.

Perhaps we can discuss it there since I seem to have taken this thread off topic.

Sorry allinall.

Here is the Bible Study thread:
http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=20;action=display;threadid=3780


De nada mi amigo.  
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"that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death"
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