Being the Body

[Heidi]

Where did i say salvation was through baptism? Not only do i not believe that, i have NEVER believed that! I don't go to the Lutheran church because they believe we are saved when we are baptized. In fact, my posts have been about baptism of water and baptism of the holy Spirit being 2 separate entities. we are saved when we receive the Holy Spirit, period, which i don't believe comes at baptism, although it may. That is up to God. You must be confusing me with someone else, Allinall, or you misunderstood my posts. Jesus said; "eternal life is this; that you know the only true God and jesus Christ whom he sent." That's salvation in a nutshell.

True believers are unified by the Holy Spirit, period. The Holy spirit brings out our individual gifts. But believers are united in the fact that God saves us through Christ's death on the cross and His body residing inside of us. Jesus said; "He who is not with me is against me." That's how believers are united. The problem comes when those who CLAIM to be with Him, are not. Their hearts have not been changed by the Holy Spirit so they simply pay Jesus lip service. These are wolves in sheep's clothing who "honor with their lips but their hearts are far from me." Their lips honor him but their hearts still belong to th devil. There are MANY such people. Jesus said; "Few will be saved." I believe Him.

[Allinall]

Where did i say salvation was through baptism? Not only do i not believe that, i have NEVER believed that! I don't go to the Lutheran church because they believe we are saved when we are baptized. In fact, my posts have been about baptism of water and baptism of the holy Spirit being 2 separate entities. we are saved when we receive the Holy Spirit, period, which i don't believe comes at baptism, although it may. That is up to God. You must be confusing me with someone else, Allinall, or you misunderstood my posts. Jesus said; "eternal life is this; that you know the only true God and jesus Christ whom he sent." That's salvation in a nutshell.

Nope!  Confused something you'd said much earlier that I wrote off and never pursued/realized at the time but having the old faulty memory I have forgot it!    This was the post that I remember misunderstanding...

Christ said that in order to get to heaven, you have to be born again with water and the spirit. According to Him, that's the only kind of Christian. He said "You are either for me or against me."  Yet the majority of Christians don't consider themselves born again. They don't even like to hear the term. According to Christ, the ONLY kind of Christian is a born again Christian, which means that millions of Christians are being deceived. There is no such thing as a "Christian" unless he is born again.

In that thread, someone else must have misconstrued that passage of scripture and I attributed it to you.  Forgive me?

True believers are unified by the Holy Spirit, period.

But not that simply.  You have such desire to teach Heidi...can you be taught?  Because that statement lacks the depth to which God states His truth in the passage posted.

The Holy spirit brings out our individual gifts. But believers are united in the fact that God saves us through Christ's death on the cross and His body residing inside of us. Jesus said; "He who is not with me is against me." That's how believers are united. The problem comes when those who CLAIM to be with Him, are not. Their hearts have not been changed by the Holy Spirit so they simply pay Jesus lip service. These are wolves in sheep's clothing who "honor with their lips but their hearts are far from me." Their lips honor him but their hearts still belong to th devil. There are MANY such people. Jesus said; "Few will be saved." I believe Him.

To what end?  

[I_Believe]

So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church. Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also. Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say "Amen" to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up...Let all things be done for building up... For God is not a God of confusion but of peace... If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But all things should be done decently and in order. (1Co 14:12-40)

And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love. (Eph 4:11-16)

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

I want to stay on topic, so let me see if I understand the primary purpose of this thread.

It really boils down to love shown to others by those who call Jesus Christ their Lord and Saviour. There are many words and phrases in the Holy Bible that are used to describe love, specifically as it relates to THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST.

The huge problem we have today is love between the members of THE BODY OF CHRIST who are still physically alive. There is also a huge problem of love shown to the lost. These aren't just problems, rather they are direct violations of the two greatest commandments given to us by our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. Our greatest problems would be solved if we: (1) Love the Lord Jesus with all of our heart; (2) Love one another as Christ has loved us. Our Lord says "If you love Me, keep My commandments." HE loved us enough to be crucified on the cross in our place.

The Apostle Paul addresses our biggest problems by talking about the Unity of the Spirit and the bond of peace. Doesn't this really boil down to a failure to obey the two greatest commandments? Without love, what do we have? The answer is given in many portions of Scripture, but we can all see the reality here on Christians Unite and in our daily lives everywhere. We see the disobedience of God's children and the result of that disobedience. In case you are wondering, the result is the opposite of the Unity of the Spirit and the Bond of Peace. This should be more than enough to cause all Christians to pray about this daily. Our desire should be to yield and obey God and pray for forgiveness for our miserable failures.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Shylynne]

Amen Tom

Allinall: So I ask.  Is this body performing the task it was made to perform?

Very good question. I think we  perform our individual tasks best when we focus on what we are supposed to be doing and not on what others are doing.  The Word must first be used as a MIRROR. The following passage says this very well, it focuses on MY need to be adaptable, humble, subjective, willing to change, and in short, all that I can be so that I might save others.

1Co 9:19  For though I be free from all [men], yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
1Co 9:20  And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
1Co 9:21  To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
1Co 9:22  To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all [men], that I might by all means save some.
1Co 9:23  And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with [you].
1Co 9:24  Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:25  And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they [do it] to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26  I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27  But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

[Heidi]

The Holy Spirit is what leads us toward spiritual maturity, not ourselves. That's why they are called the fruits of the SPIRIT. We can no more decide to obey the law, or love our neighbor, than we can decide to forgive.  That ability comes from God's love, freely given for us. All God wants from us is the truth. When I admit how much I do NOT love my neighbor, then the love, forgiveness, and mercy that he gives me is what i give to my neighbor! The more sins i confess and have His forgiveness come into me, then I'm literally dying to myself and hopefull some day, all I'll have left in me is the spirit! This is how he fulfilled the law for us! That is why Jesus said, "The work of God is this; to believe in the one He sent." His spirit does the rest. If I take any credit for my goodness, then I'm indulging in the sin of pride. So many Christians are still trying to obey the law. But we are no longer under law but Grace. Again, it is His spirit that does it all.

[Heidi]

Of course I forgive you, Allinall! I obviously make mistakes everyday!

[Brother Love]

I_Believe,

You said:

Can you have true unity between two gospels?  One of grace and one of grace plus works (Baptism, Confirmation, the Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Order, and Matrimony).

No.  You cannot.  Which is not what I am talking about.  I know Whom I have believed, and I am at odds with this continual trashing of the Catholics by my brothers and sisters in Christ.  I neither support, nor agree with Catholic doctrine.  Shoot man, ask Tibby or Michael if I'm a Catholic supporter!    No.  I am not.  But I am also ABSOLUTELY NOT[/b] a Catholic trasher.

We are to excersise our gifts as a body in love to the glory of God as He builds His Church.  Hard to do when we're smacking those for whom He died, whether they be Catholic, Baptist, Muslim, Jewish or Buddhaisisstitissts.  Sorry.  Never can get the spelling of that one right.  

Right On

[I_Believe]

No.  I am not.  But I am also ABSOLUTELY NOT a Catholic trasher.

Brother, it is pro-truth not anti-Catholic or anything else. "I saw that they didn't walk uprightly according to the truth of the Good News".

What are you unified with?  Do think the Gospel of Sacraments is the same Gospel that the Apostles presented?

Catholic doctrine says that unless you fulfill the sacraments you are not saved.  Do you believe that Gospel?


And this until we all come into the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; so that we no longer may be infants, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine, in the dishonesty of men, in cunning craftiness, to the wiles of deceit. But that you, speaking the truth in love, may in all things grow up to Him who is the Head, even Christ; from whom the whole body, fitted together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of each part, producing the growth of the body to the edifying of itself in love. (Eph 4:13-16)

Having made all haste to write to you about the common salvation, beloved, I had need to write to you to exhort you to contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints. (Jud 1:3)

Therefore I solemnly witness before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is going to judge the living and the dead according to His appearance and His kingdom, preach the Word, be instant in season and out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long-suffering and doctrine. For a time will be when they will not endure sound doctrine, but they will heap up teachers to themselves according to their own lusts, tickling the ear. And they will turn away their ears from the truth and will be turned to myths. But you watch in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fully carry out your ministry. For I am already being poured out, and the time of my release is here. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith. (2Ti 4:1-7)

What "sound doctrine"?  The doctrine that the apostles preached and recorded or that of man's traditions that came 50, 100, 300 years later?

But when Peter came to Antioch, I resisted him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before some people came from James, he ate with the Gentiles. But when they came, he drew back and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. And the rest of the Jews joined him in his hypocrisy; so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they didn't walk uprightly according to the truth of the Good News, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live as the Gentiles do, and not as the Jews do, why do you compel the Gentiles to live as the Jews do? "We, being Jews by nature, and not Gentile sinners, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, because no flesh will be justified by the works of the law. But if, while we sought to be justified in Christ, we ourselves also were found sinners, is Christ a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I build up again those things which I destroyed, I prove myself a law-breaker. For I, through the law, died to the law, that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me. That life which I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me. I don't make void the grace of God. For if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nothing!" (Gal 2:11-21)

"I resisted him to his face, because he stood condemned"  So Paul was anti-Peter and anti-law?  No, he was pro-truth.  "I saw that they didn't walk uprightly according to the truth of the Good News".

And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. (Rom 11:6)

Grace is the power and faith is the key.

[Allinall]

Brother, it is pro-truth not anti-Catholic or anything else. "I saw that they didn't walk uprightly according to the truth of the Good News".

AMEN!!!![/b]  But how are we to speak that truth, a truth that I do doctrinal adhere to?  With hatred, or speech that is perceived as such by its very nature?  Truth hurts, but it doesn't hate.

What are you unified with?  Do think the Gospel of Sacraments is the same Gospel that the Apostles presented?

I, stating again, am not a supporter of Catholic doctrine.  I am a support of biblical truth.  In that, that Christ came in the flesh, born of a virgin, lived a sinless life and died a perfect sacrifice for my sin on the cross of Calvary, was buried and risen again as proof of my redemption.  It is confession of sin, and faith in His completed work that grants me salvation and that alone.  Communion is a rememberance of what He did for me, and no, the Catholic Sacremental system I do not believe is the Gospel message presented by the Apostles.  Let me note here as well, I am not posting this to trash Catholics, nor am I posting it to debate.  

Catholic doctrine says that unless you fulfill the sacraments you are not saved.  Do you believe that Gospel?

Nope!  My sins were washed away with the blood of Jesus and I am His and He is mine.

And this until we all come into the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; so that we no longer may be infants, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine, in the dishonesty of men, in cunning craftiness, to the wiles of deceit. But that you, speaking the truth in love, may in all things grow up to Him who is the Head, even Christ; from whom the whole body, fitted together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of each part, producing the growth of the body to the edifying of itself in love. (Eph 4:13-16)

Having made all haste to write to you about the common salvation, beloved, I had need to write to you to exhort you to contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints. (Jud 1:3)

My point is simply this...do we contend with anger and hatred, and alienate those for whom Christ died...or do we simply state truth, and let the truth either unite or alienate those who would contend with us?  I do not see simple truth being lovingly spoken in these threads.  I see points being made by prideful people who would rather debate than defend.  Defense is for the brethren.  Not for those who are not brothers.  According to y'all...they aren't brothers.  So who exactly are you defending?  Or what?  Are we to defend truth, or those who are hearing untruths?  Perception I believe is wrong here, my friend.  

What "sound doctrine"?  The doctrine that the apostles preached and recorded or that of man's traditions that came 50, 100, 300 years later?

That of the Apostles.  But whomst are we to rebuke, exhort, and reprove?  The lost man, or the believer being led astray?  And how are we to do so?  "With all longsuffering."  Not hatefully and hastilly as though we are saving anyone, or protecting anything.  Rather, that we, as a body, strengthen and build one another up in the faith of the scriptures...NOT[/b] traditions of men.  

Who then are you defending, and who then are you reproving, rebuking, exhorting and loving?  Brothers?  Or the lost?

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to Allinall,

AMEN BROTHER! I love the way you said that. I think this subject requires daily prayer from all of us for guidance, wisdom, and the LOVE we are to have in our hearts. I'm positive that the second greatest commandment, Love one another as Christ has loved us, can't be accomplished without asking Jesus to work in us and through us.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Allinall]

Amen Brother Tom!