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Author Topic: Would this be sufficient for Salvation?  (Read 6171 times)
aw
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« on: April 12, 2004, 12:58:30 PM »

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever should believe on Him should not perish bur have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

"For by grace through faith are you saved and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God." (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Fot it is with the heart that man believes unto salvation.(Romans 10:9,10)

Summary: 1. Salvation is for WHOSOEVER will, 2. It is a free gift from God requiring only that one believes in the Lord with the heart, and 3. It is received apart from any works whatsoever.

Would these suffice? If not, then why?

aw
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darby
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« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2004, 04:14:19 PM »

"What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds?  Can such faith save him?"  

"Faith by itself, if not accompanied by action, is dead."

James 2:14 and 2:17

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michael_legna
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« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2004, 04:38:50 PM »

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever should believe on Him should not perish bur have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

"For by grace through faith are you saved and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God." (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Fot it is with the heart that man believes unto salvation.(Romans 10:9,10)

Summary: 1. Salvation is for WHOSOEVER will, 2. It is a free gift from God requiring only that one believes in the Lord with the heart, and 3. It is received apart from any works whatsoever.

Would these suffice? If not, then why?

aw

Because the scriptures say they are not.  Yes the things you mention are part of what is needed for salvation.

But just as they are not the complete set of scriptures, so too they are not the complete message of the scriptures.

The following verses list other things we need to do to be saved.

Do the Will of the Father
Matt 7:21  
Rom 2:13

Love God and Mankind
Luke 10:25-28  
Mat 25:31-46  

Keep the Commandments
Mat 19:16-17  
Mar 10:17-19  
Mat 5:19-29  
1John 3:15  
Luke 18:18-22

Repent   
2Co 7:10  

Eat His Body and Drink His Blood
John 6:54

Be Humble
Matt 5:3  
Luke 18:9-14  

Suffer Persecution for Righteousness
Matt 5:10  
   
Lose Attachment to Our Earthly Life
Matt 16:25  
Mark 8:35  
Luke 9:24  
Luke 17:33  
John 12:25
Mar 10:28-30  

Follow Christ
John 10:27-28  

Live a Godly Life
2Peter 2:6  
Rom 8:1  

Be Converted
Mat 18:3-4  
Mat 19:14  
James 5:20  
1John 3:20-21  

Emulate the Saints
Rom 11:14  

Obey the Gospel
1 Peter 1:2  
1 Peter 4:17-18  
2 Thes 1:8
Heb 5:9  
James 1:21  

Control Our Words
Matt 12:37  

Endure or Continue
Matt 10:22  
Matt 24:13  
Mark 13:13
1 Tim 2:15
1Ti 4:16
Rom 2:7  

Work Out Our Salvation
1 Tim 6:12  
1Ti 6:19  
Phi 2:12  

Be Baptized
1 Peter 3:20-21  
Mark 16:16  
John 3:5  

So unless you are going to claim there are multiple ways to be saved we must find a way to harmonize them with the verses you quoted.

The way to do that is to recognize that to believe something in ones heart means to fully accept that message and internalize it - make it part of your life, such that the actions of your life and that belief are inseparable.  That is how works and faith become inseparable, such that works perfect faith and faith bears the fruit of works.  No chicken and the egg issue here they are mutually dependent on each other and they both in turn rely on God's grace to ever even get started.
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Matt 5:11  Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake:
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« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2004, 06:13:49 PM »

I assume from your answer that some type of WORKS must be added for salvation. If that is your belief, then please stipulate what those good works actually are.

aw
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aw
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« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2004, 06:19:47 PM »

Then I would assume from your reply that one must GO AND SELL ALL THAT HE HAS AND GIVE IT TO THE POOR. Scripture also says that we will be saved THROUGH CHILDBIRTH. So, is getting pregnant required?
Since the gospel is declared by the Lord and His apostles to be SIMPLE, how about boiling down your theology for salvation into a description that a child can understand.

Appropos to that, Paul summarized the gospel in 1 Cor 15:1-8. How does your compare with that?

aw
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« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2004, 06:52:19 PM »

"What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds?  Can such faith save him?"  

"Faith by itself, if not accompanied by action, is dead."

James 2:14 and 2:17

Darby:

It's interesting that this verse is brought out times without number to somehow prove that (1) the Bible contradicts itself or (2) salvation is based upon faith + works.

The target audience of James are those who "profess" to be saved but do not show "fruits meet for [appropriate to] repentance", i,e, good works.

When we consider the entire context of James 2, we see that GOOD WORKS ARE A TEST OF FAITH -- "By their fruits ye shall know them". Those who show the following characteristics while claiming to be saved are false "professors", not true "possessors":

James 2:1-9: Those who show partiality and "respect of persons" within the church,

James 2:13: Those who show no mercy to others

James 2:14-16: Those who show a false concern for the plight of other brethren, but do not lift a finger to help them

James: 2:17-20: Those who proclaim a false faith with their mouths, but do not really believe in their hearts to the point of repentance

James 2:21-24: Those who fail to see that Abraham's genuine faith caused him to trust God to the point of willingly sacrificing his son.

"FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD" means that those who are truly saved will show forth the fruits of their salvation through good works.  The absence of good works will prove that they had no genuine faith. Thus in the end this false faith will not "save" that person thus he will not be "justified", since true faith leads to a transformed life which includes good works.

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Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father, and Jesus Christ our Lord. 1 Timothy 1:2
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« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2004, 10:49:05 PM »

I don't think we are in any disagreement Sower.

Which is more important for breathing, inhaling or exhaling?  Both are probably equally important, and the latter naturally follows the former.  

I am not arguing either side.  I too believe that with sincere faith, good works naturally follow as an expression of that faith.  But if there ain't no fruit, then the faith ain't real.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2004, 10:52:33 PM by darby » Logged
aw
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« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2004, 12:49:05 AM »

One can be a FRUIT INSPECTER, but only God can look on the heart. Salvation is always declared to be UNTO good works, while works for salvation are specifically excluded- not of works lest any man should boast. (Eph 2:10)

You guys still haven't answered the question- would those scriptures suffice?

aw
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« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2004, 09:32:36 AM »

Aw is right. Works are a RESULT of salvation, not a PRE-REQUISITE.  As Paul said in Romans, 3:20, "Therefore no one will be declared righteous by oberving the law in his sight, rather, through the law we become consious of sin."

Jesus said that all the law and the prophets hang on the 2 greatest commandments of loving God and loving our neighbors. That is why all we need is God's forgiveness and the rest takes care of itself! Instead of "trying" by my own effort to love my neighbor, all I have to do is confess that I do NOT love my neighbor and God's love and forgiveness brings me to love my neighbor! If he has forgiven me, then how can I not forgive my neighbor? That is how Christ fulfilled the law for us. It is finished. His love, mercy, and forgiveness is what we give to others. It leads us to not want to covet, steal, murder, dishonor our parents, not want to bear false witness, and all the other laws given to us. As Paul said, if we have not love, then obeying the law is meaningless. That is why we cannot do good works without first being saved. Good works COME from the unconditional love Christ gave us on the cross!
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« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2004, 10:56:22 AM »

I was also thinking about the THIEF ON THE CROSS. All he could do was BELIEVE on who the Lord was.

The Eunch also was told to just BELIEVE WITH THE HEART.

I am attempting to point out the simplicity of the gospel for salvation...it ain't rocket science and even a little child can understand it perfectly.

aw
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« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2004, 12:51:11 PM »

Not to beat a dead horse, because I do see what yall are sayin' but I just don't want performing good works to be trivialized.

I would say that your faith is made known by good works.  Yes there are exceptional cases like the crucified thief, or the guy who believes as his plane is crashing down (one must question the sincerity of examples like this).  But it's probably a good idea to keep those cases as exceptional cases, and let them be that... not use them as blanket cases.  

"It is by our actions that we know we are living in the truth, so we will be confident when we stand before the Lord"

1 John 3:19

"But if anyone has enough money to live well and sees a brother or sister in need and refuses to help - how can God's love be in that person?"

1 John 3:17
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« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2004, 01:01:28 PM »

Our works are JUDGED as to REWARDS. We will have some wood, hay, and stubblr, and then some gold, silver, and precious stones. The question is, "What constitutes the latter?" The question of SALVATIOn has been forever settled and it is ALL by GRACE.

Paul said, "I LABORED more than you all, yet it was not I but the GRACE of God given unto me." Works performes in His power and for His glory are the omly good works. We have NOTHING to offer of merit and no one dare appraoch the cross with something in the hand to offer.

aw
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« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2004, 03:10:34 PM »

Our works are JUDGED as to REWARDS. We will have some wood, hay, and stubblr, and then some gold, silver, and precious stones. The question is, "What constitutes the latter?" The question of SALVATIOn has been forever settled and it is ALL by GRACE.

Paul said, "I LABORED more than you all, yet it was not I but the GRACE of God given unto me." Works performes in His power and for His glory are the omly good works. We have NOTHING to offer of merit and no one dare appraoch the cross with something in the hand to offer.

aw

AMEN Brother Aw!

Our good works should be the result of a grateful heart. Jesus Christ was sacrificed on the cross in our place by the Grace and Love of God. God's Grace and GIFT could never be earned by us. If Salvation was by works, then it is no longer GRACE. If Salvation is by GRACE, through faith, then it is not by works.

Our good works are part of our testimony to others, and they are part of our joy and appreciation for what Jesus did for us. Our good works will only be recognized by God if they are done in joy, charity, and love. Good works will be burned up if we do them because we feel that we must, for our own status, or for our own glory.

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2004, 03:51:44 PM »

aw, I'd be interested in your view on what free will is.

I don't think salvation is by works, but I believe that works are inherent of salvation.    

The wind isn't made known until we witness the effects of it.  You can't see the actual wind blowing, but you know it is there by the change is brings, or the objects it moves.  Our faith may not be known to God until He sees/feels the effects of our faith.  What good is that faith if not put into action?  





   
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« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2004, 06:34:11 PM »

Are men doing good works to glorify themselves or to glorify God? It is imperative that one asks himself those questions. Again, all we have to focus on is that we have been forgiven. If every single day we get up and know that we are forgiven, then the works will automatically come out of that thankfulness. The joy of our salvation, the thankfulness, hope, peace, and solid foundation of the fact that we are loved leads to wonderful works! Then it isn't a duty or chore to show we're good little boys and girls, it's coming from the Spirit whoch produces joy, hope, peace, thanksgiving, discernment, and genuine love. Each day is then an incredible gift from God!
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