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Author Topic: Would this be sufficient for Salvation?  (Read 18447 times)
michael_legna
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« Reply #75 on: April 21, 2004, 04:14:15 PM »


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I've tried pretty hard to stay out of this.

I hope you did that because in some sense you saw it as your role as moderator, not because of me.  You needn't have for my sake.  I value your opinion and would be glad to delve into the what the word says with you as much as anyone here.

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I would hope that you don't imply there is no error in your brick and mortar buildings. Your brick and mortar buildings are riddled with errors, human failures, and sin.

I do not think that a Church is made up of brick and mortar but it is made up of people and those people are established as a hierarchy of Bishops, Elders, Deacons and Members.  It is this hierarchy that we are directed to go to to resolve errors.

Mat 18:17  And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

This isn't a local hierarchy as the message you get from it would differ from place to place - this must be a central authority.

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If you claim some sort of Divine protection from error, failure, and sin for your church, it didn't happen, hasn't happened, and won't happen. THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST IS NOT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, THE BAPTIST CHURCH, THE METHODIST CHURCH, OR ANY OTHER DEVISE OF MAN. If you are looking for a brick and mortar church without error, failure, and sin - THERE ISN'T ONE.  

As to the Church being infallible in matters of doctrine I would say that I am not going to let a body I do not believe is free from error resolve disputes in matters of doctrine for me it is too important to leave to others who might make an error in judgement.  That is why the leadership of the Church (not once but twice was granted protection and promised to be kept from error.

Mat 16:19  And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Mat 18:18  Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

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I would hope that you aren't even hinting that the Catholic Church is the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. If you are, the monstrosity of your error would be beyond description.  Please do let me know if this is what you are implying.

I do not believe that the Catholic Church is the only place we find the Body of Christ.  I believe it is found in the Orthodox and many of the Protestant and non-denominational Churches as well.  I also believe there are some who claim membership in the Catholic Church who are not part of the body of Christ.

But I see scripture clearly stating the need for a physically identifiable Church (so we can go to it for resolution of disagreements among other things) and I see no other candidate except perhaps the Orthodox Church though I doubt that would make many here much happier with my choice.

Do you have another candidate?  I would be glad to consider one.  If not how do you resolve disputes?  Who do you take a brother too when you disagree over doctrine?  Does Matt 18:17 fit in your church's or denomination's view of the mission of the Church at all?
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« Reply #76 on: April 21, 2004, 09:02:03 PM »

Michael, I only need one example to demonstrate how riddled with error your doctrine, wherever you are getting it, really is. You keep quoting that "Not everyonwho has called Him Lord will enter, etc." That passage ends with, "I never knew you." Christ would not, and indeed could not, say that to a believer in Him because He indwells Him! He has said, "I will never leave you not forake you(believers)." The Holy Spirit indwells every believer and is the all-knowing God.

To assert that the passage you quoted applies to a believer at some sort of judgment is just plain ridiculous!!!! Your posts are getting to the place  of deteriorating to the point that there is not enough merit to even respond.

Please try and be objective and pray about what you are believing.

aw
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michael_legna
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« Reply #77 on: April 21, 2004, 10:12:04 PM »


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Michael, I only need one example to demonstrate how riddled with error your doctrine, wherever you are getting it, really is. You keep quoting that "Not everyonwho has called Him Lord will enter, etc." That passage ends with, "I never knew you." Christ would not, and indeed could not, say that to a believer in Him because He indwells Him! He has said, "I will never leave you not forake you(believers)." The Holy Spirit indwells every believer and is the all-knowing God.

You are trying to prove something by assuming what you are trying to prove - that is circular reasoning.

You start by assuming that believers are in Christ simply by believing in Him.  Then you try to use that to prove that those who believe in Christ are never abandon because they are in Him.

Maybe you would have a stronger case if you could provide a verse that said someone was in Christ simply through faith alone - but we both know no such verse exists.

Maybe you would have a stronger case if you could provide a verse that says the Holy Spirit indwells all believers who only have faith alone - but we both know no such verse exists.

You even try to provide one like this by paraphrasing, a clear indication that you know the verse doesn't really say what you want it to when you put in quotes the following: "I will never leave you not forake you(believers)."  To make matters worse you add in parenthesis (believers) to interpret the word YOU, when the verse I think you are referring to does not imply this interpretation.  I believe you are referring to the following:

Heb 13:5  Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Where does this verse claim those it refers to a thee are believers who only have faith?  I believe you are reading that into the verse based on the preconceived notions fo your doctrine.

As far as Christ leaving us that is true He will not leave us but that does not mean that we cannot leave Him.

Quote
To assert that the passage you quoted applies to a believer at some sort of judgment is just plain ridiculous!!!! Your posts are getting to the place  of deteriorating to the point that there is not enough merit to even respond.

I don't contend that the passage refers to a true believer, someone with a true living faith (one that is kept alive and perfected by works).  But it does refer to a believer as anyone who can read can see, since these people refer to Jesus as Lord and as I showed before with other scripture (which you ignored) that no one can call Jesus Lord except by the Spirit.  

The message of the verse is Christ saying - simply recognizing Him as Lord is not enough, that you must do the will of the Father. You want to claim that these people, who call Him Lord, do not have faith - how is that possible?  Try addressing the verse itself and stop trying to find other verses you think contradict it.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2004, 10:12:48 PM by michael_legna » Logged

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« Reply #78 on: April 22, 2004, 12:28:35 AM »

Michael,
I don't think you even know what CIRCULAR REASONING is. The passage reads, "Not every one that saith unto me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

A very simple and fundamental rule of exegesis is to establish the CONTEXT, which you never seem to do. If you will simply keep in mind the AUDIENCE and keep reading. The next vs reads,"Many will say to me in that DAY (what day do you suppose that is Micahel?), LORD LORD, have we not prophecied in thy name?" And in thy Name cast out devils, and in thy name many WONDERFUL WORKS.

The Lord then tells them "I NEVER KNEW YOU!!!!"

They will address Him as Lord because they will see Him face-to-face. They had used His name and even did WONDERFUL WORKS, but yet He says He never KNEW THEM.

You cannot honestly believe that someone who is saved, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, said to have been IN CHRIST BEFORE the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4), has Christ as Saviour/Intercessor/Advocate, has been prayed to and worshipped, has been regenerated by the Spirit of God, sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, and died for would say to any one of them "I NEVER KNEW YOU!"

You see, I really wouldn't care what you believe except for the fact that you keep detracting from the CROSS of my Saviour. As long as you persist in this doctrine of devils I am going to withstand you with the oracles of God or get kicked off the forum.

The Lamb of God either took away the sins of the world or He did not? He became sin that we might be the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Cor 5:17-21)

Lastly Michael, you really need to re-study carefully the words CONDEMNATION and JUDGMENT. Just go to a good dictionary such as the EXPANDED VINE'S EXPOSITORY or a good lexicon. I am not going to do your homework for you, but its the GREEK word KATAKRIMA for CONDEMNATION and it a process of JUDGMENT leading to PUNISHMENT.

Now, the Saviour bore the punishment for the sin. Sin was judged and He became sin and hence the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world. There is now therefore NO CONDEMNATION/JUDGMENT to those who are in Christ. If you believe otherwise, then you are still in your sins and on your way to JUDGMENT where you can list YOUR GOOD WORKS, but all you will receive is LESS PUNISHMENT if you did a bunch.

You should let us know how you believe in this regard as there are some real Christians here who are mighty prayer warriors.

aw
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michael_legna
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« Reply #79 on: April 22, 2004, 10:08:03 AM »


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I don't think you even know what CIRCULAR REASONING is. The passage reads, "Not every one that saith unto me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

I wasnít referring to the verse I was referring to your use of other verses to try to force an interpretation on the verse.  My point of referencing the verse is to show that salvation is not by faith alone.  This verse says they call Him Lord, any other time you would say that proves they have faith, but because He claims to have never known them you say that proves they werenít saved and I agree.  But then you assume that not being saved means they never had faith (since you assume that salvation is by faith alone).  So you conclude that they cannot have faith which is what you were trying to prove.  So you prove they cannot have faith by assuming that the only way to salvation is by faith alone.  That is a circular argument.

Quote
A very simple and fundamental rule of exegesis is to establish the CONTEXT, which you never seem to do. If you will simply keep in mind the AUDIENCE and keep reading. The next vs reads,"Many will say to me in that DAY (what day do you suppose that is Micahel?), LORD LORD, have we not prophecied in thy name?" And in thy Name cast out devils, and in thy name many WONDERFUL WORKS.

Yes but the context of all scripture is all other scripture.  To approach a scripture as you do looking for loopholes to give you a chance to ignore it or not apply it to your life is ignoring the greater context that all of Godís word does not contradict.

The day referred to is the judgment day Ė which we will all go through.  So no ducking applying this verse to us here.

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The Lord then tells them "I NEVER KNEW YOU!!!!"

Yes, He never knew them because all they had was faith, they did not accept the gift properly through both faith and works.  They thought that they could merit salvation just on the strength of their faith alone.

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They will address Him as Lord because they will see Him face-to-face. They had used His name and even did WONDERFUL WORKS, but yet He says He never KNEW THEM.

Yes they did wonderful works because they had the faith to move mountains, but it came to nothing Ė why?

1Co 13:2  And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Faith alone is not enough Ė how many times do the scriptures have to tell you before you see it?

Quote
You cannot honestly believe that someone who is saved, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, said to have been IN CHRIST BEFORE the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4), has Christ as Saviour/Intercessor/Advocate, has been prayed to and worshipped, has been regenerated by the Spirit of God, sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, and died for would say to any one of them "I NEVER KNEW YOU!"

No I do not believe that someone who is saved would ever be told that He never knew them.  I would admit that these men were never saved.  The point you are missing is that they had faith and yet were never saved.  What kind of faith?  Faith enough to call Him Lord.  Faith enough to do might works in His name.  That kind of faith and yet they were never saved.

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You see, I really wouldn't care what you believe except for the fact that you keep detracting from the CROSS of my Saviour. As long as you persist in this doctrine of devils I am going to withstand you with the oracles of God or get kicked off the forum.

I have never said anything that detracts for the cross.  All of the doctrine associated with a proper acceptance of the gift is meaningless without the cross to first make it possible.  Accepting the gift through faith and works (of love and the spirit of the law) do not detract from the cross anymore than accepting the gift through faith alone.  They both require us to participate in our own salvation.

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The Lamb of God either took away the sins of the world or He did not? He became sin that we might be the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Cor 5:17-21)

Yes the Lamb of God took away the sins of the world, but that is not enough to save us or else we would all be saved and we know that not all are saved.  So we have to do something to accept the gift.  We are discussing what that something is so trying to deflect the argument to this topic which we both agree on is just misdirection.

Quote
Lastly Michael, you really need to re-study carefully the words CONDEMNATION and JUDGMENT. Just go to a good dictionary such as the EXPANDED VINE'S EXPOSITORY or a good lexicon. I am not going to do your homework for you, but its the GREEK word KATAKRIMA for CONDEMNATION and it a process of JUDGMENT leading to PUNISHMENT.

Actually it appears you are the one who needs to do the homework in their Greek as there are several words used in the New Testament for Condemnation and while it is true that sometimes they are mistranslated in the KJV as Judgment the context makes it clear what is meant.  

Judgment in the New Testament is most often a process or as Strongís 2920 puts it an accusation or tribunal.  That is why people are referred to as sitting at judgment.  They come together to decide something.

Condemnation is the result or as Strongís 2917 puts it a decision or the effect, or as Strongís 2631 and 2633 puts it an adverse sentence.

Quote
Now, the Saviour bore the punishment for the sin. Sin was judged and He became sin and hence the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world. There is now therefore NO CONDEMNATION/JUDGMENT to those who are in Christ. If you believe otherwise, then you are still in your sins and on your way to JUDGMENT where you can list YOUR GOOD WORKS, but all you will receive is LESS PUNISHMENT if you did a bunch.

The verse you are quoting is Rom 8:1  There is therefore686 now3568 no3762 condemnation2631 to them3588 which are in1722 Christ5547 Jesus,2424 who walk4043 not3361 after2596 the flesh,4561 but235 after2596 the Spirit.4151

Notice how the word condemnation is Strongís 2631 which is specifically an adverse sentence.  This verse does not say anything about those who are in Christ not being judged, only that when they are judged they will not be condemned.  Of course you would know this if you had done the Greek study you recommended to me.
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« Reply #80 on: April 22, 2004, 11:45:36 AM »

Michael, Michael, Michael,
Dude, you really need to go back to some basics. For example, your ideas of what FAITH is, lies somewhere between heart faith and intellectual orthodoxy and is therefore wrong. The devils are said to BELIEVE, and you are constantly confusing this type of belief with that of salvation. Theyelieve a set of facts or they consent mentally that God is God, but they are obviously not saved.

Salvation is BELIEF WITH THE HEART and is a PERSONAL response to God's offer of salvation. It is never of WORKS lest any man should boast. It is not BELIEF/FAITH only, but BY GRACE through faith only in the complete and fiished work of the Lord Jesus Christ!

No doubt you are a McArhurite or some brand of RELIGION that is anti- sola scriptura such as  Roman catholocism that is nothing short of a whole bunch of doctrines of devils all tied up into one abominable group. Or, some LEGALISTIC group that holds itself up as authoritative so that they can hold their members in bondage to a false doctrine. Those involved with such need prayer that they will recover from the snares of satan.

aw
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michael_legna
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« Reply #81 on: April 22, 2004, 01:34:25 PM »


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Dude, you really need to go back to some basics. For example, your ideas of what FAITH is, lies somewhere between heart faith and intellectual orthodoxy and is therefore wrong.

I sensed we may be using the definition of faith differently.  I refer to faith as Webster uses and defines the word.

Faith is defined by Webster as
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs
synonym see BELIEF

You I think tend to use the word to refer only to a true saving faith, wishing to relegate all other forms to mere belief as if that were somehow different.  However we see that according to Webster faith and belief are the same.  

So it becomes important to use an adjective to identify a true saving faith.  James did that when he contrasted the faith of the demons to that of one who was truly saved.  You remember when he was talking about the man who said he had faith (a mere mental assent to the idea of Christ as Lord) but did not works.  He compared that manís faith (which James clearly said the man had) to the belief of the demons Ė showing us that James preceded Webster in his understanding of the two words being synonymous.

Now what was the adjective we can apply to a form of faith - the kind that is truly saving?  Oh yes LIVING.  James told us that a faith without works is dead and cannot save.  He did not teach that this form of faith does not exist Ė he taught that it does exist, and it is rightly called faith and it does not save because it is alone.  The opposite of a dead faith is a living faith.

The faith of demons is one of mere mental assent Ė they know Christ is Lordand they tremble because of it.  They do not make their faith alive though or perfect because they refuse to follow Him and do the works He directs us to.  Their faith is never perfect by works.  Their faith is alone and it does not save.

Quote
The devils are said to BELIEVE, and you are constantly confusing this type of belief with that of salvation. They believe a set of facts or they consent mentally that God is God, but they are obviously not saved.

I agree but I am not confusing it with the faith of salvation Ė you are.  I recognize that their faith is alone (without works of love) and I know it does not save.  You on the other hand think that when people have faith alone that it does save.  How is their position different from the demons?  Shouldnít someone who has faith alone tremble?

Quote
Salvation is BELIEF WITH THE HEART and is a PERSONAL response to God's offer of salvation. It is never of WORKS lest any man should boast. It is not BELIEF/FAITH only, but BY GRACE through faith only in the complete and fiished work of the Lord Jesus Christ!

Salvation is not belief at all.  I think you misworded that.  Perhaps you meant to say salvation comes to us when we believe with the heart and personally respond to Godís offer of salvation.  I can agree with this definition whole heartedly.  But donít you see in your own definition you go beyond mere faith to faith and works.   If you believe with the heart that means you have internalized His message and made it part of your life (which is works).  Donít you also see that you admit we must respond (more works).  Donít get hung up too much on Paulís exhortation to avoid works aimed at meriting salvation as these types of loving responses by us as we take His word to heart are not aimed at meriting salvation they are merely intended to follow His instructions on how to accept the free gift.  Works of love no more take away from the gift than faith does.  They are both acts of men and they are both completely useless and meaningless without Godís grace and the gift first having been offered.  The point you need to see is that they are also both completely useless without each other.

Quote
No doubt you are a McArhurite or some brand of RELIGION that is anti- sola scriptura such as  Roman catholocism that is nothing short of a whole bunch of doctrines of devils all tied up into one abominable group. Or, some LEGALISTIC group that holds itself up as authoritative so that they can hold their members in bondage to a false doctrine. Those involved with such need prayer that they will recover from the snares of satan.

I am Roman Catholic and of course I do oppose the man made idea of sola scriptura (because it is self contradictory coming as it does from outside of scripture and never appearing within scripture anywhere).

And you are wrong about the teachings of the RCC.  The doctrines of the Catholic Church are the least legalistic of all of Christianity (that I am aware of) Ė since they teach that it is the spirit of the law that we fulfill through love of God and love of our fellow man.  

Legalism is trying to hold to the letter of a set of instructions. I spend a great deal of my time correcting Protestants who supposedly have gotten the message of the Old Testament which served as our school teacher to show that the letter killeth but the spirit bringeth life, but yet still want to hold the Catholic Churches feet to the fire over calling Priests Father.  If that is not legalism I donít know what is.
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« Reply #82 on: April 22, 2004, 01:59:51 PM »

The RCC holds the following as being REQUIRED for salvation: baptismal regeneration, transubstantiation, amd membership in the catholic church, just to name a few.

Everyone is going to have to be real quiet in heaven when they get near the few of them that were actually saved because they will still be thinking that "THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES THERE!!!!"

aw
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« Reply #83 on: April 22, 2004, 02:24:07 PM »


Quote
The RCC holds the following as being REQUIRED for salvation:
baptismal regeneration,

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Quote
transubstantiation,

Actually this is a technical term for the real presence of the Jesus in the Eucharist.  We are not reuired to go through transubstantiation to be saved.  Did you even know what the word meant before you copied and pasted it from some source you never even bothered to check the correctness of?  

What is required that jesus is truly present in the Eucharist so that we can obey His instructions to eat His Body and drink His Blood.

John 6:53  Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Quote
amd membership in the catholic church, just to name a few.

And this one is just plain wrong and it just goes to show how confused you are about the teachings of the Catholic Church - but don't feel bad you are not alone - alot of Protestants share your prejudices toward the Catholic Church - I am here to help you see past them to the truth.

The following is a quote from the Official Catholic Catechism which proves that the Church teaches that others besides those in the Catholic Church can be saved.

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."
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« Reply #84 on: April 23, 2004, 10:29:25 AM »

Jesus said, "You MUST be BORN AGAIN." What then is your view of how this is accomplishr. How and when is a person BORN AGAIN?

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« Reply #85 on: April 23, 2004, 03:18:42 PM »

Jesus said, "You MUST be BORN AGAIN." What then is your view of how this is accomplishr. How and when is a person BORN AGAIN?

aw

When a Catholic says that he has been "born again," he refers to the transformation that Godís grace accomplished in him during baptism.

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

But I was wondering is this what I am to expect of you each time?  Just more questions with no admission of error or apology for misrepresenting the doctrines of the Catholic Church?  

Am I to assume everytime you change the subject rather than defend your position that you are admitting the error of your ways in the last post?
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« Reply #86 on: April 23, 2004, 05:19:53 PM »

Michael,
The subject of the post is what is required for salvation- the single most important question that confronts any human being. I do not have to bring into question the tenets of the RCC as they are well known for their errors. You respond by listing one in this very post. John 3:5 does not make any mention of water baptism. It is absurd to think that every time one reads the word WATER that it means a person has to be dunked by another human being.

Besides that, in the RCC it would be highly possible that you could have a child of satan(an unsaved pedophile as an example), since all unsaved are just that, baptizing another child of satan, if one cannot be born again until water baptism.

So, I will assume your response is simply to "get dunked" in the right way (which cannot be found anywhere in scripture) and you will be born again?

The question Michael is, "What must a person do to be BORN AGAIN?"

aw

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« Reply #87 on: April 23, 2004, 11:16:14 PM »

But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth, and in your heart;" that is, the word of faith, which we preach: that if you will confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart, one believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in him will not be disappointed." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on him. For, "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."  (Rom 10:8-13 WEB)
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Religion is like a coconut.  You must break through the husk of man's traditions to get to the sweet milk & meat of the gospel of Christ.

These people draw near to me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrine rules made by men.
aw
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« Reply #88 on: April 24, 2004, 12:51:26 AM »

A true understanding of the simplicity that is in the gospel of Jesus Christ for salvation.

If you teach/preach that, the Holy Spirit can regenerate that person and they will become a brand new cration in Christ.

Amen,

aw
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