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Our Lord Jesus Christ loves you.
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Author Topic: Would this be sufficient for Salvation?  (Read 17637 times)
Sower
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« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2004, 07:23:27 PM »

The way to do that is to recognize that to believe something in ones heart means to fully accept that message and internalize it - make it part of your life, such that the actions of your life and that belief are inseparable.  That is how works and faith become inseparable, such that works perfect faith and faith bears the fruit of works.  No chicken and the egg issue here they are mutually dependent on each other and they both in turn rely on God's grace to ever even get started.

Fair enough, so long as we clearly understand and teach that JUSTIFICATION is APART from works, and is solely because of the merits of the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.  This is precisely where the Reformers and the RCC parted company.

The finished work of Christ means the FINISHED work of Christ. Neither the believer nor Mary can add to that one iota of merit:

"Therefore being JUSTIFIED BY FAITH [not faith + the works of the Law + the intercession of Mary] we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ... Much more then, being now JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD [not the sacrament of water baptism], we shall be saved from wrath through Him... for the wages of sin is death, BUT THE GIFT OF GOD [period] is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 5:1,9; 6:23).

The reason why so many stumble over salvation -- eternal life -- is because they forget, ignore, or disbelieve that salvation is GOD'S FREE GIFT to the one who believes.  A gift is a gift is a gift is a gift...
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aw
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« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2004, 10:00:55 PM »

aw, I'd be interested in your view on what free will is.

I don't think salvation is by works, but I believe that works are inherent of salvation.    

The wind isn't made known until we witness the effects of it.  You can't see the actual wind blowing, but you know it is there by the change is brings, or the objects it moves.  Our faith may not be known to God until He sees/feels the effects of our faith.  What good is that faith if not put into action?  

aw: God works in the believer BOTH the WILL and thew POWER to do His good pleasure.

aw





   
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JudgeNot
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« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2004, 10:22:00 PM »

Quote
…that whosoever should believe on Him should not perish…
That sums everything up.  As some have posted, works equal rewards.  Rewards do not equal salvation.  The rewards we receive we will lay the feet of Jesus in thanks to Him.  Rewards are our gifts back to Him.  Salvation is His gift to us – no questions asked.  We seek rewards to glorify Him.  Rewards we can give back to him, for they are not a gift to us.  You don’t return a gift.  Salvation is a gift – it is non-returnable.  
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nChrist
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« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2004, 01:39:03 AM »

AMEN! brothers and sisters.

Salvation is a GIFT!, full and free by the matchless Grace and Love of Almighty God.

We accept or reject this GIFT when we make our decision about the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Accepting the GIFT means that we have faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour, that we are lost without HIM, that HE died on the cross in our place, that HE arose from the dead on the third day, that we have asked HIM for forgiveness, AND that we have asked HIM to come into our heart as our personal LORD and SAVIOUR forever.

In terms of our sanctification, justification, redemption, and Salvation, there are only two conditions: (1) We are seen in and through Jesus Christ and the Seal of the Holy Spirit is on our hearts; or (2) We are lost, undone, children of darkness, and on our way to hell.

Thanks be unto GOD for HIS unspeakable GIFT!!, Jesus Christ, our LORD AND SAVIOUR FOREVER!

Love In Christ,
Tom
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nChrist
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« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2004, 01:51:24 AM »

I must say one more thing. It would be an insult to Almighty God for any man to believe they had something worthy to add to the precious blood of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

The ONLY thing we are worthy of is worshiping at HIS feet and giving HIM all praise and glory.

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2004, 03:14:44 AM »


The ONLY thing we are worthy of is worshiping at HIS feet and giving HIM all praise and glory.

Tom,

I don't believe we are even worthy of worshipping at HIS feet or of giving HIM praise. Jesus is the only reason we are even able to elevate praises and worship to HIM. We aren't worthy yet he demands it of us. But HE can't even look at us without Jesus as the go-between.

I guess I'm just trying to say, somehow, is that there is nothing that we are worthy of when it comes to God. Not even of being alive. It is all because of His grace and mercy. He alone is worthy...

-Samson
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Little John
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« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2004, 08:19:21 AM »

Hi,

The Question of salvation has been answered. It is GRACE through FAITH!
Salvation is NOT of WORKS.
It is a one way street. Works are the manifestation of the  SALVATION attained, Not a requirement to attain it!

GOD BLESS
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Phil.2:13 - For it is GOD which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
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« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2004, 08:32:35 AM »

The wind isn't made known until we witness the effects of it.  You can't see the actual wind blowing, but you know it is there by the change is brings, or the objects it moves.  Our faith may not be known to God until He sees/feels the effects of our faith.  What good is that faith if not put into action?

Works are not for GOD to see ou faith, they are for us see as a testimony of the GLORY of GOD in our lives.
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Phil.2:13 - For it is GOD which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
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« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2004, 09:27:43 AM »


The ONLY thing we are worthy of is worshiping at HIS feet and giving HIM all praise and glory.

Tom,

I don't believe we are even worthy of worshipping at HIS feet or of giving HIM praise. Jesus is the only reason we are even able to elevate praises and worship to HIM. We aren't worthy yet he demands it of us. But HE can't even look at us without Jesus as the go-between.

I guess I'm just trying to say, somehow, is that there is nothing that we are worthy of when it comes to God. Not even of being alive. It is all because of His grace and mercy. He alone is worthy...

-Samson

Oklahoma Howdy to SMartinez1984,

AMEN!! - I agree completely. What we deserve is to die on a cross for our sins, but Jesus Christ suffered and shed HIS blood in our place. Worthy was a poor choice of words on my part. In fact, we are worthy of nothing except punishment. This should give us even greater joy when we understand the Grace and Love of Almighty God.

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2004, 10:25:10 AM »

Quote
Tom,

I don't believe we are even worthy of worshipping at HIS feet or of giving HIM praise. Jesus is the only reason we are even able to elevate praises and worship to HIM. We aren't worthy yet he demands it of us. But HE can't even look at us without Jesus as the go-between.

I guess I'm just trying to say, somehow, is that there is nothing that we are worthy of when it comes to God. Not even of being alive. It is all because of His grace and mercy. He alone is worthy...

-Samson

"I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called," Ephesians 4:1


"Only let your manner of life be worthy[1] of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel, " Philippians 1:27

"And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God. May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy," Colossians 1:9-11

I'd say brother that we can be worthy.  Yet I will also add, my friend, that it is by Jesus that this worth is even possible and it is by Jesus that God would even consider us worthy in the first place.  

We deserve death and damnation.  We're given life, relation, the inheritance of Christ, and worth.  Blows my mind, and bends my knees.   Smiley
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« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2004, 01:06:25 PM »

Blows my mind, and bends my knees.

Wow! Another deep one!  Cheesy

I agree!
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michael_legna
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« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2004, 01:26:25 PM »

I assume from your answer that some type of WORKS must be added for salvation. If that is your belief, then please stipulate what those good works actually are.

aw

No works need be added for salvation.  Salvation is a free gift.

But we are instructed in scripture to accept that gift through faith, a living faith which reuires works so it is perfected and not dead.

Those works are works of love (the golden rule - treating another as you would want to be treated).  God desires mercy not sacrifice (and not mercy towards Him - He doesn't need our mercy - mercy towards one another).  That is why love is the fulfillment o the law.  Not the letter of the law but the spirit of the law.

So specifically we need to do what those scriptures I referenced tell us to do and we need to love one another as He has loved us.  Otherwise we have not properly accepted the gift.
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Matt 5:11  Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake:
michael_legna
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« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2004, 01:33:11 PM »

"What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds?  Can such faith save him?"  

"Faith by itself, if not accompanied by action, is dead."

James 2:14 and 2:17

Darby:

It's interesting that this verse is brought out times without number to somehow prove that (1) the Bible contradicts itself or (2) salvation is based upon faith + works.

The target audience of James are those who "profess" to be saved but do not show "fruits meet for [appropriate to] repentance", i,e, good works.

When we consider the entire context of James 2, we see that GOOD WORKS ARE A TEST OF FAITH -- "By their fruits ye shall know them". Those who show the following characteristics while claiming to be saved are false "professors", not true "possessors":

James 2:1-9: Those who show partiality and "respect of persons" within the church,

James 2:13: Those who show no mercy to others

James 2:14-16: Those who show a false concern for the plight of other brethren, but do not lift a finger to help them

James: 2:17-20: Those who proclaim a false faith with their mouths, but do not really believe in their hearts to the point of repentance

James 2:21-24: Those who fail to see that Abraham's genuine faith caused him to trust God to the point of willingly sacrificing his son.

"FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD" means that those who are truly saved will show forth the fruits of their salvation through good works.  The absence of good works will prove that they had no genuine faith. Thus in the end this false faith will not "save" that person thus he will not be "justified", since true faith leads to a transformed life which includes good works.



This analysis would be good if it did not ignore the many times in the book of James where he specifically talks about salvation.  The message of James is not one of judging another or even your own salvation based on outward appearance.  In fact he spends a good amount of time telling us not to be judgers of men.  It is about works and faith being inseparable.  There is no chicken or egg debate here.  

In your doctrine I would ask you how long can faith exist without these fruits before it dies?  A month?  A day?  A millisecond?

Besides this error you fail to recognize that works do more than prove a living faith, they perfect that faith.   The results of something cannot perfect that thing.  

Finally you fail to recognize that repentance is from a greek military term meaning about face so it is a turning around of ones life (not just mere mental change of mind).  So repentance is works and it preceeds faith.  You must repent before you can have faith.

So we see works are more than just fruits - they also perfect and proceed faith in accepting the gift.
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Matt 5:11  Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake:
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« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2004, 01:35:24 PM »

We as humans have the ability to choose between good and evil, a little thing called free will.  Our knowledge of what is good and what is evil makes us unique in the animal kingdom (what makes us God's creatures?).  

Just having faith is a work unto itself.  When you begin believing with your heart and mind, it is an effort!  Faith comes to us by our efforts.  And work is effort, and effort is work!  

There are two kinds of decisions we can make in life: good (God's way) and bad (the other way).  When you choose to live according to God's will, at that moment, you have chosen one of two paths to take.  At that moment, you decide to no longer perform iniquitous works, and choose to perform good works.  Just the process of thinking hard and believing is a work!

I think I am being misunderstood.  Faith is work!  And working for the good is faith!
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« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2004, 01:37:07 PM »


Quote
One can be a FRUIT INSPECTER, but only God can look on the heart. Salvation is always declared to be UNTO good works, while works for salvation are specifically excluded- not of works lest any man should boast. (Eph 2:10)

Eph 2:10 is talking about works aimed at meriting salvation, not works of loving response to the instructions on how to accept the gift.  We know this because the only way someone can boast is if they merited something.  Works don't lead to boasting, works designed to merit something lead to boasting.  Faith doesn't lead to boasting, but those who believe they are saved because their faith is strong enough to do the job are boasting - just the same as those who think they can work their way into heaven.

Quote
You guys still haven't answered the question- would those scriptures suffice?

I hope you don't mean me - I have answered it I hope - though maybe you don't agree.

If you agree that I have answered your question I would ask you how do you see those verses I referenced.  What is your interpretation of each and how do they fit in your understanding of a salvation through faith alone - with no role for works what-so-ever?
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Matt 5:11  Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake:
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