Lose Your Salvation in Two Easy Steps

[AVBunyan]

There is a lot debate today on losing one’s salvation. I’ve decided to boil it down to 2 simple steps to make it easy for you.

1. Do something that causes you to lose it.  
Now, I don’t know what that “something” could be because Paul never talked about it and since Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles and the revealer of the body of Christ to us today then he would be the one to tell us what to do to lose it.  Since Paul spent 13 epistles expounding Christ and justification surely he would spend some time on how to lose it!
 
2. Undo all that God did at your salvation.  
See how easy it is! Now, let’s go down a simple list of things that God did and all you have to do is make this list your check list and mark them all as you undo them.  OK put your tennis shoes on and let’s go!!!

1) Get God to un-forgive you – Eph. 1:7
2) Get God to un-redeem you - Rom. 3:24
3) Get God to un-circumcise you – Col. 2:13
4) Get God to un-adopt you – Rom. 8:15
5) Get God to un-seat you – Eph. 2:6
6) Get God to un-sanctify you – I Cor. 6:11
7) Get God to un-glorify you – Rom. 8:30
8. Get God to un-seal you – Eph. 1:13
9) Get God to un-justify you – Rom. 3:24; 8:30
10) Get God to un-bless you – Eph. 1:3
11) Get God to un-bury you – Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:12
12) Get God to un-raise you – Eph. 2:6
13) Get God to un-quicken you – Eph. 2:1
14) Get God to take Christ out of you – Col. 1:27
15) Get God to take you out of Christ’s physical body – Eph. 5:30
And a few more that I failed to present here.

Now, you se how simple that was – if you can undo all that God has done for you then you are free and clear once again.  Then when you “repent” and get right then all the above 15 things will happen again.  Then when you “sin it away” again then you can undo it all over again!  My what a life!  About as confusing as a termite in a yoyo/

Yes, I know all those verses in Matthew (before the cross) and all those verses in Hebrews and James (doctrinally during the tribulation) and of course Revelation (during the 7 year tribulation where the body of Christ is not present anyway) – Yes, I’ve seen all those verses, had them thrown out of context at me for over 20 years now.

Until you can show me how a blood-bought, redeemed, regenerated saint in this age can lose all that God has done for him then I might give you a listen.  Until then I will stay secure in Christ for all eternity – glory!!!


May God bless  

[Ambassador4Christ]

There is a lot debate today on losing one’s salvation. I’ve decided to boil it down to 2 simple steps to make it easy for you.

1. Do something that causes you to lose it.  
Now, I don’t know what that “something” could be because Paul never talked about it and since Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles and the revealer of the body of Christ to us today then he would be the one to tell us what to do to lose it.  Since Paul spent 13 epistles expounding Christ and justification surely he would spend some time on how to lose it!
 
2. Undo all that God did at your salvation.  
See how easy it is! Now, let’s go down a simple list of things that God did and all you have to do is make this list your check list and mark them all as you undo them.  OK put your tennis shoes on and let’s go!!!

1) Get God to un-forgive you – Eph. 1:7
2) Get God to un-redeem you - Rom. 3:24
3) Get God to un-circumcise you – Col. 2:13
4) Get God to un-adopt you – Rom. 8:15
5) Get God to un-seat you – Eph. 2:6
6) Get God to un-sanctify you – I Cor. 6:11
7) Get God to un-glorify you – Rom. 8:30
8. Get God to un-seal you – Eph. 1:13
9) Get God to un-justify you – Rom. 3:24; 8:30
10) Get God to un-bless you – Eph. 1:3
11) Get God to un-bury you – Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:12
12) Get God to un-raise you – Eph. 2:6
13) Get God to un-quicken you – Eph. 2:1
14) Get God to take Christ out of you – Col. 1:27
15) Get God to take you out of Christ’s physical body – Eph. 5:30
And a few more that I failed to present here.

Now, you se how simple that was – if you can undo all that God has done for you then you are free and clear once again.  Then when you “repent” and get right then all the above 15 things will happen again.  Then when you “sin it away” again then you can undo it all over again!  My what a life!  About as confusing as a termite in a yoyo/

Yes, I know all those verses in Matthew (before the cross) and all those verses in Hebrews and James (doctrinally during the tribulation) and of course Revelation (during the 7 year tribulation where the body of Christ is not present anyway) – Yes, I’ve seen all those verses, had them thrown out of context at me for over 20 years now.

Until you can show me how a blood-bought, redeemed, regenerated saint in this age can lose all that God has done for him then I might give you a listen.  Until then I will stay secure in Christ for all eternity – glory!!!


May God bless  

And may God bless you, GRRRRRREAT message and AAAAAMEN!!!

[Bronzesnake]

There is a lot debate today on losing one’s salvation. I’ve decided to boil it down to 2 simple steps to make it easy for you.

1. Do something that causes you to lose it.  
Now, I don’t know what that “something” could be because Paul never talked about it and since Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles and the revealer of the body of Christ to us today then he would be the one to tell us what to do to lose it.  Since Paul spent 13 epistles expounding Christ and justification surely he would spend some time on how to lose it!
 
2. Undo all that God did at your salvation.  
See how easy it is! Now, let’s go down a simple list of things that God did and all you have to do is make this list your check list and mark them all as you undo them.  OK put your tennis shoes on and let’s go!!!

1) Get God to un-forgive you – Eph. 1:7
2) Get God to un-redeem you - Rom. 3:24
3) Get God to un-circumcise you – Col. 2:13
4) Get God to un-adopt you – Rom. 8:15
5) Get God to un-seat you – Eph. 2:6
6) Get God to un-sanctify you – I Cor. 6:11
7) Get God to un-glorify you – Rom. 8:30
8. Get God to un-seal you – Eph. 1:13
9) Get God to un-justify you – Rom. 3:24; 8:30
10) Get God to un-bless you – Eph. 1:3
11) Get God to un-bury you – Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:12
12) Get God to un-raise you – Eph. 2:6
13) Get God to un-quicken you – Eph. 2:1
14) Get God to take Christ out of you – Col. 1:27
15) Get God to take you out of Christ’s physical body – Eph. 5:30
And a few more that I failed to present here.

Now, you se how simple that was – if you can undo all that God has done for you then you are free and clear once again.  Then when you “repent” and get right then all the above 15 things will happen again.  Then when you “sin it away” again then you can undo it all over again!  My what a life!  About as confusing as a termite in a yoyo/

Yes, I know all those verses in Matthew (before the cross) and all those verses in Hebrews and James (doctrinally during the tribulation) and of course Revelation (during the 7 year tribulation where the body of Christ is not present anyway) – Yes, I’ve seen all those verses, had them thrown out of context at me for over 20 years now.

Until you can show me how a blood-bought, redeemed, regenerated saint in this age can lose all that God has done for him then I might give you a listen.  Until then I will stay secure in Christ for all eternity – glory!!!


May God bless  

Well Paul may not have talked about it my friend but Jesus is very clear...

Rev 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;  


 Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:  


Rev 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.  


 Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.  


 Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.  

Now, maybe you can "boil that down" and see how easy that is to understand?

Bronzesnake

[AVBunyan]

Well Paul may not have talked about it my friend but Jesus is very clear...

Rev 2:1; Rev 2:2; Rev 2:3; Rev 2:4 Rev 2:5  

Now, maybe you can "boil that down" and see how easy that is to understand?
Bronzesnake

Thanks for your response - very easy to handle if you know how to rightly divide the scriptures - II Tim. 2:17

1. Revelation is a book of prophecy with Israel as the focus.
2. The church, which is His body, is not the subject of prohecy but the subject of a mystery which has been hid from before the foundation of the world until God revealed it to Paul who then revelaed it to us or at least some of us - so therefore....
3. You couldn't find the church, which is His body, in the book of Revelation if you stayed up all night using an electron microscope.

Why not take the plain sense of the scriptures Paul presents for your eternal security instead of fleeing into the tribulation in order to try and lose your salvation?

But I enjoyed your thoughts - thanks - it's been nice chatting with you  

[AJ]

If you cant find the church in revelation your going to need a bigger microscope.

Rev 1:11  Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Your also gonna need a map of Pauls journeys.

This was the Church

God Bless

[Bronzesnake]

Well Paul may not have talked about it my friend but Jesus is very clear...

Rev 2:1; Rev 2:2; Rev 2:3; Rev 2:4 Rev 2:5  

Now, maybe you can "boil that down" and see how easy that is to understand?
Bronzesnake

Thanks for your response - very easy to handle if you know how to rightly divide the scriptures - II Tim. 2:17

1. Revelation is a book of prophecy with Israel as the focus.
2. The church, which is His body, is not the subject of prohecy but the subject of a mystery which has been hid from before the foundation of the world until God revealed it to Paul who then revelaed it to us or at least some of us - so therefore....
3. You couldn't find the church, which is His body, in the book of Revelation if you stayed up all night using an electron microscope.

Why not take the plain sense of the scriptures Paul presents for your eternal security instead of fleeing into the tribulation in order to try and lose your salvation?

But I enjoyed your thoughts - thanks - it's been nice chatting with you  

That's convoluted thinking my friend.

Also, you should be very careful when making such statements as the following...

 "Thanks for your response - very easy to handle if you know how to rightly divide the scriptures - II Tim. 2:17"

 It's very patronizing, and when we make such comments they often come back and make us look foolish.

The "Church" are Christians. Christians are those who believe in Jesus Christ and accept His sacrifice at the cross.

Are you trying to tell me that the Church (Christian believers)can not be found in Revelations?

Also, you have a poor understanding of who Revelations is addressed to judging by this statement..."Revelation is a book of prophecy with Israel as the focus."

Read the very first verse of Revelation...

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:

The focus is to "shew unto His servants" we ( Christians)are His servants, the Jews don't believe in Jesus.
He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John.

John was a disciple...a Christian.

Revelations is Jesus revealing His plans for the future.

The seven churches are Christian churches, not Jewish Synagogs, so you are wrong right off the bat about the Church not being in Revelations. This entire message was for the Christian churches, read it and see for yourself...

 Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.  

You would do yourself a huge favour to read the following also...

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.  

There's that word again...the one you said I couldn't find with an electron microscope.
You'll also notice that Jesus uses that very same word (Church) each time He address a different Church...notice...

 Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;  

Rev 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;  

Rev 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet [are] like fine brass;  

You get the point now? Revelations are addressed to the Church.

Here are more examples of the Church (Christians) in Revelations.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:  

More Christians right here in Revelations, imagine that?
They were left behind after the Rapture, and became saved during the Tribulation hour, which is mankind's very last chance at eternal redemption. So they were murdered because they believed in Jesus... "slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held"

 Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?  

Here we go again...Christians in Heaven, while men still remain on earth...how can that be? especially if as you believe, there is no Rapture. Don't ignore the facts my friend, they are here in plain English.


 Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.  

Look at that...white robes were given to them...every one of them. So here they are (Christians) in Heaven and they are wearing white robes so they are in a physical form. Jesus tells them to wait until the rest of the CHRISTIANS who remain on earth are killed as they were.

Want to read in the Bible the exact point where the Rapture is described?
Here ya go...

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.  

Wowee! A door was opened in Heaven and a voice which sounds like a trumpet calls out to "come up hither" Where have I read that before??? Oh ya, I remember! look here...

 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  


 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  

What an amazing coincidence!

Here are more Christians in Heaven at the same time John was commanded to "come up hither"

Rev 4:6 And before the throne [there was] a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, [were] four beasts full of eyes before and behind.  

How do I know the sea of glass are Christians? because they are later clothed in white robes along with their slain brothers who are saved after the Rapture and during the Tribulation...look for yourself...

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;  


Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.  

So here are a "great multitude, which no man could number"
of Christians right here in Revelations.

 In chapter 4 we see Christians in Heaven, that is well before the tribulation begins. These are the Raptured Christians. In chapter 6 more Christians begin to enter Heaven through death after they are saved during the Tribulation hour.

So there we have it.

1) Many Christians in Revelations, and you don't need any microscope to find them

2) The Lord Himself tells us that Revelations is a picture of the future for Christians.

3) Solid evidence that prior to the Tribulation hour there are Christians in Heaven.

4) People are saved during the Tribulation hour, are killed for their testimony, and welcomed into Heaven to await the fulfillment of the scriptures, involving the murder of the very last Christian before the second coming, where we are described in Rev 19:14 following Him out of Heaven and down to the earth.


Now instead of taking the "the plain sense of the scriptures" why not try reading the actual truth.


Bronzesnake.

[AJ]

And one more thing.. the church members back then are part of his body.

[Paul2]

     Jesus Christ is the focus of Revelation, not Israel or the Church.

Revelation 1:1: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"

    Bronzesnake,

    While I agree with you on the pre-Tribulation Rapture, I must make it known I believe theres a difference between The Church that is Raptured and those who will become Tribulation Saints. You used the word "Christians" to also describe those who missed the Rapture for not believing in Christ at the time of the Rapture. While the word Christian could apply I perfer Tribulation Saints which conveys that the convert believers after the Rapture of the completed Church, will not be the same as the Church. It is possible for a Tribulation Saint to lose Salvation by accepting ther mark of the Beast, which is impossible to the Church. The Church alone belongs to the age of Grace. When the time of Tribulation and wrath come the age will no longer be Grace and those saved would be Tribulation Saints under a different dispensation than the Church under Grace.

    Revelation 1-3 focus on Christ who is judging His seven Churches. This is the Church age and Church dispensation. Chapter 4 begins with the Rapture of the Church and the shift from present tense events to future tense events. Chapters 6 through 19 deal with Daniel's 70th week, the Great Tribulation, the Wrath of the Lamb to the Second Coming of Christ. Nowhere can the word Churches be found between chapters 4-19 because the Church age is finished and the raptured Church is in Heaven with Christ from Revelation chapter 4 through 19. 19 Times the word "Church" is used in the first 3 chapters of Revelation. From Chapters 4-19 the word used to describe believers became "Saint" as in "Tribulation period Saint" and the dispensation of Grace and the Church age had ended when Christ shouts "come up here" which is the Rapture shout in Rev.4:1.

    For the record, no member of the church will remain behind at the Rapture of the Church which will complete the Church and the mission of the Church on earth. The Church age ends at the Rapture of the Church, the dispensation of Grace ends.

    Those who become believers after the rapture of the completed Church takes place, will become Tribulation Saints. The rules of Salvation will be changed after the Rapture of the Church. Salvation becomes conditional on not receiving the mark of the beast. Anyone who receives the mark can not be saved, they become eternally damned. Many Tribulation Saints will be required to be martyred rather than accept the mark of the beast. Tribulation Saints will not be part of Christ's Church which will be in Heaven complete for the wedding week in Heaven during Chapters 4-19. I suppose you could call them "Christians" but theres a diffenent difference between the Raptured Church and the Tribulation Saints. Thats all I'm attempting to point out.

                                                              Paul2

[michael_legna]

PART 1

There is a lot debate today on losing one’s salvation. I’ve decided to boil it down to 2 simple steps to make it easy for you.

1. Do something that causes you to lose it.  
Now, I don’t know what that “something” could be because Paul never talked about it

It’s not a matter of doing something to lose it, it is a matter of not doing anything to keep it.  Since we had to add works to our faith to perfect it and keep it alive (since as James teaches faith alone cannot save – James 2:24), we have to continue in those works to run the race so we may obtain (1 Cor 9:24) and work out our salvation (Phi 2:12).  You see salvation is not a one time thing (except at the final judgment when it is decided by God that we accepted the gift properly).  Salvation is a process and that process must be completed.  Even Paul did not count himself as saved.

Phi 3:12-14  Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.   Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,  I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

…and since Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles and the revealer of the body of Christ to us today then he would be the one to tell us what to do to lose it.  

While it is true that Paul was sent to the Gentiles it is not true that he was the only one sent to them.  Peter was the first Apostle to go unto the Gentiles (Acts 10) and he was instructed to by Christ every bit as much as Paul was.  Barnabas was an Apostle (Acts 14:14) and traveled with Paul, so he too is an Apostle to the Gentiles.

Since Paul spent 13 epistles expounding Christ and justification surely he would spend some time on how to lose it!

He did, but he discusses it in terms of failing to complete the process not in the sense that one is already saved and one loses that final decision.  You just aren’t looking the in the right spots, hopefully the ones I have shown you above will make it clear.

2. Undo all that God did at your salvation.  
See how easy it is! Now, let’s go down a simple list of things that God did and all you have to do is make this list your check list and mark them all as you undo them.  OK put your tennis shoes on and let’s go!!!

1) Get God to un-forgive you – Eph. 1:7

Yes God’s forgiveness stands ready for us to accept, but this does not mean we have to accept it or cannot after once accepting it, later reject the gift.  Howdo we get God to unforgive us?  Simply stop repenting and confessing your sins.  

1 John 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

2) Get God to un-redeem you - Rom. 3:24

Actually this verse talks about being justified through the redemption that is in Christ.   This mean that Christ’s sacrifice redeemed us from the eternal punishment and made possible our justification.  To be unjustified all one has to do is again not do the works that perfect and keep alive our faith.  

James 2:24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

3) Get God to un-circumcise you – Col. 2:13

Again this one is easy.  All you have to do to become uncircumcised is break the law, or to put it another way (since we fulfill the law through love now) do not the works that perfect and keep our faith alive.

Rom 2:25  … but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

4) Get God to un-adopt you – Rom. 8:15

We are no longer heirs if we do not pick up our cross and follow Him.  Paul clearly teaches that we must suffer (and that relates to works) with Him if we are to be His co-heirs.

Rom 8:17  And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

5) Get God to un-seat you – Eph. 2:6

As we know we are not currently seated in heaven, we can see this as a future event, since of course salvation is a future event.  So yes if we persevere and obtain the prize we will be seated with Christ in heaven, but only if we continue in proper doctrine and obey the Gospel.

Rom 11:22  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

1Tim 4:16  Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

1John 2:24  Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

1Peter 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

6) Get God to un-sanctify you – I Cor. 6:11

Sanctification is something we do.  It is associated with our faith, which is a decision we make freely.  We set ourselves apart for the service of God.  

Act 26:18  To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

2Ti 2:21  If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

But yes you did get it right that sanctification is required for salvation.  But remember sanctification is a process as well, as we prepare ourselves to be vessels of honor.  So that means salvation is a process.

END OF PART 1

[michael_legna]

PART 2

7) Get God to un-glorify you – Rom. 8:30

If you look back just a few verses you see that this glorification stems from the suffering we do with Christ as we take up our cross as I pointed out in response to point 4.  That is why 8:13 tells us we must mortify the deeds of the flesh, which is an ongoing, never ending effort throughout our lives.  It is important to recall that this is not a completed item either as we see in the expectation (future event) in 8:19 and in 8:23 as we wait for the adoption (future event).  So no we are not glorified now but will be when the final determination of our salvation is made at the judgment.

8. Get God to un-seal you – Eph. 1:13

This verse also refers to the end result of a process, one that involves both trust and believing.  Trust and faith are more than mere mental ascent, they are active and involve more than a single one time event.  To truly trust someone you must take their teachings into your heart and act on their instructions.  To truly believe in someone you must not just accept them but also their teachings.  We cannot love God and not keep His word.

1John 2:5  But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

9) Get God to un-justify you – Rom. 3:24; 8:30

Justification is made possible by God’s grace through Christ’s sacrifice, but we must respond to the free gift to apply that grace.  We respond through faith, a living faith which is one perfected and kept alive by works.  This shows that the same process that explains your error in point 7 where you used one of the same verses applies here.

Furthermore as I showed in answer to point 2, where you focused on the wrong term in the verse; we are not justified by faith alone but by our works as well.  Just as Christ taught us to fulfill the law through love.

Rom 13:8 -10 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.   For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.  Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Gal 5:14  For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

10) Get God to un-bless you – Eph. 1:3

This does not say we are saved, it speaks of the great rewards that await us when we complete the process of salvation and get to heaven.  A blessing has no merit if you toss it aside and choose worldly pleasures over the promise.  Just as Esau sold his birthright to Jacob for a morsel of food so too we can lose our blessings by choosing the pleasures of this life over doing the works of love in service of others.

11) Get God to un-bury you – Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:12

It is good to see that you are aware of the requirement for baptism (a work) for salvation but that does not mean that once you are baptized you can never toss the gift aside.  We should walk in newness of life but that does not mean we always will.  We all sin and if we do not repent (as we are told in 1 John 1:9 as I showed in answer to your point 1) and confess these sins we will not be forgiven them.  Therefore it is clear if we sin unrepentantly we are in affect unburying ourselves.  We become the servants of sin again and so there is no way we can be dead to sin any longer.

12) Get God to un-raise you – Eph. 2:6

Again we see this is clearly a future event as it refers to us sitting with Christ in heaven.  When we are saved, when the final determination of our proper acceptance of the gift is made at the judgment then this will be true.  But since salvation is a process we are not currently raised with Christ, but will be at the end, if we persevere.

13) Get God to un-quicken you – Eph. 2:1

This is not referring to salvation this is referring to a part of the overall process.  It refers to the awakening of man which is required to even respond to God.  Until grace is given man cannot even seek God and none of man’s works can approach anything remotely pleasing to God.  When we are given grace we then can respond, we are alive and can make a decision of faith and works to love God in return and accept the gift properly.

14) Get God to take Christ out of you – Col. 1:27

God doesn’t take Christ out of us, we remove ourselves from Him by not keeping His word.

1 John 2:5  But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1 John 4:12  No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

1 John 4:16  And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

It is we who decide to not abide with Him by not bearing fruit.  Once again we come back to those works of love which fulfill the law, perfect and keep our faith alive.

John 15:2-10  Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.  Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.   Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.   I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.  If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.  If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.   Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.   As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.   If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

END OF PART 2

[michael_legna]

PART 3

15) Get God to take you out of Christ’s physical body – Eph. 5:30

This is a metaphor for the Church as it clearly points out in 5:32.  It is not individual members and thus does not relate to salvation of individual members.  But by the way it is easy to stop being a member of the body by simply leaving the Church.  This is done whenever you begin to hold fast to false doctrines, find yourself refusing to accept the teachings of the Church or refuse to accept their decisions resolving differences between Christians.  It is called an anathema.

Mat 18:17  And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Now, you se how simple that was – if you can undo all that God has done for you then you are free and clear once again.  Then when you “repent” and get right then all the above 15 things will happen again.  Then when you “sin it away” again then you can undo it all over again!

Actually all you have to do is one of those to put your eternal salvation at risk you don’t have to undo all of them.  But yes it is quite simple.

Yes, I know all those verses in Matthew (before the cross) and all those verses in Hebrews and James (doctrinally during the tribulation) and of course Revelation (during the 7 year tribulation where the body of Christ is not present anyway) – Yes, I’ve seen all those verses, had them thrown out of context at me for over 20 years now.

Your claim of them being out of context is based merely on a dispensational view of scripture that is a man made invention less than 500 years old.  None of the Apostles taught it, Paul never told us to ignore the Words of Christ, or of James or of any of the other Apostles.  No one in the early Church believed in dispensationalism.  There is no support for it in scripture except as a method to twist verses to get them to mean what you have predetermined that you think they should mean.  You error by claiming you are of Paul, that Paul is your only Apostle.  When you deny that the teachings of Christ do not apply to you, then even Paul rebukes you.  

1Co 1:12-13  Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.  Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

Until you can show me how a blood-bought, redeemed, regenerated saint in this age can lose all that God has done for him then I might give you a listen.  Until then I will stay secure in Christ for all eternity – glory!!!

The point is that God has not done this for you until the final judgment, else what is the judgment for?  These prizes for running the race await us at the end of the race.

END OF PART 3
END

[AVBunyan]

Reponse for Bronzesnake'

Bronze - I really do thank you for our response – I like it when people put some thought into and go for it and I am being sincere.
This was supposed to be about one’s position in Christ not Revelation but if you want to go there, then fine, I’m easy to get along with.  

Now, you said a lot and I’m not sure I even know where to begin. No way to adequately cover what needs to be covered in this post. I read every word of your post and I trust you will do the same for.

“you should be very careful when making such statements as the following...It's very patronizing,///such comments they often come back and make us look foolish.”

Honestly bronze, not worried about this coming back to bite me a bit – been hashing it out for over 22 years now.  I used to believe what you have posted below until I started comparing it with Paul and then I had to regroup and rethink the traditional thinking on the subject – it wasn’t easy.

”The "Church" are Christians. Christians are those who believe in Jesus Christ and accept His sacrifice at the cross.”

Amen, I agree on the salvation part. But, just because we see the word “church” doesn’t mean it is the church, which is His body. How about the church in the wilderness (Acts 7:38) – there it is the Jewish church in the OT.  Comparing scripture with scripture the word church means “congregation” – see Heb. 2:12 with Psa. 22:22. So, we must be careful when we make a blanket statement about what the church means – context determines the definition.  

”Are you trying to tell me that the Church (Christian believers) can not be found in Revelations?”

Yes, that is exactly what I’m saying.  The church, which is His body (Eph. 5:30; 1:22,23, etc.), is not an earthly people in God’s eyes but a heavenly people seated in the heavenly places in Christ (Eph. 2:6, etc.).  Christ’s body suddenly comes down from heaven to go through the tribulation?  That is not the purpose of the church!  The purpose of Revelation is the consummation of God’s plan regarding the nations and Israel.  Paul revealed the completed plan for the church in Ephesians and Colossians – Col. 1:25 and Eph. 3:10.

”Also, you have a poor understanding of who Revelations is addressed to judging by this statement..."Revelation is a book of prophecy with Israel as the focus."”

Ok, then show me the body of Christ in the Gospels and the OT.  Show me where the focus is no the body of Christ in Revelation when Paul didn’t breath a word of it to us.  Show me Pauline truths in Revelation.  Show me any Pauline scriptures – I can show you tons of OT references but not body of Christ truth.  

”Read the very first verse of Revelation...The focus is to "shew unto His servants" we (Christians) are His servants, the Jews don't believe in Jesus. He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John.”
 
John was the apostle to the circumcision – Gal. 2:9
Paul as the apostle to the Gentiles – Rom. 15:16
So right off the bat you have a book associated with John who is tied into Israel. Again, because we see servants doesn’t mean it is directed to servants today.
 
”John was a disciple...a Christian.”

Again, John was also the apostle to the circumcision.  Does this mean he was given truth about the body of Christ – look at what John wrote and compare it with Paul – big difference.

”The seven churches are Christian churches, not Jewish Synagogues, so you are wrong right off the bat about the Church not being in Revelations. This entire message was for the Christian churches, read it and see for yourself...”

Then why is the word synagogue used in Revelation?  Again, why do you think because you see the word church it means local churches of today or even the first century since…Rev. 1:4 – John is in the future – he is not looking at church age churches.

”You would do yourself a huge favor to read the following also...”

Yes, I can use a concordance and see the word churches but we’ve covered this before.
Is it a coincidence that in Rev. the emphasis is on the twelve tribes?
Is it a coincidence that in Rev. 12 the emphasis is on Israel (mentioned 3 times through out the epistle)?
Is it a coincidence about the two JEWISH witness of Rev. 12?
Is it a coincidence about all the other Jewish references in Rev:
Rev. 5:5, 8, 10 (Compare with Ex. 19:6 and Deut.); 4 beasts (Ezek.); New Jerusalem (Rev. 21); keeping the commandments (Rev. 22), etc?

”Here are more examples of the Church (Christians) in Revelations.
Rev 6:9”

You see church age saints  – I see tribulation saints not body of Christ.
According to Eph. 1-3 the church, which is His body is in heaven, far above all principalities and powers – not on earth during the tribulation.  Why would the Lord drag His body down to earth to go through the tribulation?  Doesn’t match Paul - II Tim. 2:7.

”Don't ignore the facts my friend, they are here in plain English.”

Well, at least I’m still your friend but you are ignoring the book as a whole and reading into it a truth you and others have been taught for years is there but it is not – sorry.

”Look at that...white robes were given to them...every one of them.”

Makes good preaching but poor doctrine.  When God saved me I did not get white robes I became the righteousness of Christ in Him – Rom. 3:22 – robes not are associated with saints anywhere in Paul’s epistles.

”Want to read in the Bible the exact point where the Rapture is described?”

Bronze – I’m trying to be gracious here while you are treating me like a kid.  I think I’ve seen the “rapture” verses before.

”Rev 4:1 which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.  “

I think Christ is talking to John – see vs. 2 “I” (John) – not us in this age. Earlier this phrase is mentioned in Rev. 1:1 and it is not talking to us but John. Makes exciting preaching – poor doctrine.

”Wowee! A door was opened…Where have I read that before???
”1Th 4:16 1Th 4:17 - ”What an amazing coincidence!”

What an amazing misplacement of a second-advent event!
Yes, I said end of tribulation – second-advent references to a catching away of tribulation saints at the end of the tribulation.  I used to think that was referring to a pre-tribulation rapture but after careful study it is a second advent reference not a church age reference.  

”1) Many Christians in Revelations, and you don't need any microscope to find them”

The word “Christian” appears nowhere in the book.

I’m bewildered but not surprised – been dealing with this teaching for years.  The reason so many are so confused over this is because they just don’t know the unique place the body of Christ has in God’s plan – plain and simple.

Look Bronze, I’m not trying to take anything away from you.  I’m trying to give you a blessing.  The body of Christ is a heavenly body sitting in the heavenly places right this moment.  If you are saved then you are in Christ and Christ is at the right hand of the Father, which puts you in eternity at this moment.  The body of Christ is a not an earthly calling – that is for Israel and the Gentile nations.  We are not coming down again to earth – we have been purposed to sit far above the heavens and display the manifold wisdom of God for eternity (Eph. 3:10). Isn’t that great!?!?!?!  

I’m trying to open up the heart here – we have a position like no other ever has – the tribulation is for the establishing of an earthly kingdom for Israel, which was the subject and theme of the OT.  We are not in the OT – we are a mystery hidden from all till Paul got it from the Lord.  

With that – I’m drained but game.  If you want to carry on I’m interested.

May God bless  

[Ambassador4Christ]

Reponse for Bronzesnake'

Bronze - I really do thank you for our response – I like it when people put some thought into and go for it and I am being sincere.
This was supposed to be about one’s position in Christ not Revelation but if you want to go there, then fine, I’m easy to get along with.  

Now, you said a lot and I’m not sure I even know where to begin. No way to adequately cover what needs to be covered in this post. I read every word of your post and I trust you will do the same for.

“you should be very careful when making such statements as the following...It's very patronizing,///such comments they often come back and make us look foolish.”

Honestly bronze, not worried about this coming back to bite me a bit – been hashing it out for over 22 years now.  I used to believe what you have posted below until I started comparing it with Paul and then I had to regroup and rethink the traditional thinking on the subject – it wasn’t easy.

”The "Church" are Christians. Christians are those who believe in Jesus Christ and accept His sacrifice at the cross.”

Amen, I agree on the salvation part. But, just because we see the word “church” doesn’t mean it is the church, which is His body. How about the church in the wilderness (Acts 7:38) – there it is the Jewish church in the OT.  Comparing scripture with scripture the word church means “congregation” – see Heb. 2:12 with Psa. 22:22. So, we must be careful when we make a blanket statement about what the church means – context determines the definition.  

”Are you trying to tell me that the Church (Christian believers) can not be found in Revelations?”

Yes, that is exactly what I’m saying.  The church, which is His body (Eph. 5:30; 1:22,23, etc.), is not an earthly people in God’s eyes but a heavenly people seated in the heavenly places in Christ (Eph. 2:6, etc.).  Christ’s body suddenly comes down from heaven to go through the tribulation?  That is not the purpose of the church!  The purpose of Revelation is the consummation of God’s plan regarding the nations and Israel.  Paul revealed the completed plan for the church in Ephesians and Colossians – Col. 1:25 and Eph. 3:10.

”Also, you have a poor understanding of who Revelations is addressed to judging by this statement..."Revelation is a book of prophecy with Israel as the focus."”

Ok, then show me the body of Christ in the Gospels and the OT.  Show me where the focus is no the body of Christ in Revelation when Paul didn’t breath a word of it to us.  Show me Pauline truths in Revelation.  Show me any Pauline scriptures – I can show you tons of OT references but not body of Christ truth.  

”Read the very first verse of Revelation...The focus is to "shew unto His servants" we (Christians) are His servants, the Jews don't believe in Jesus. He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John.”
 
John was the apostle to the circumcision – Gal. 2:9
Paul as the apostle to the Gentiles – Rom. 15:16
So right off the bat you have a book associated with John who is tied into Israel. Again, because we see servants doesn’t mean it is directed to servants today.
 
”John was a disciple...a Christian.”

Again, John was also the apostle to the circumcision.  Does this mean he was given truth about the body of Christ – look at what John wrote and compare it with Paul – big difference.

”The seven churches are Christian churches, not Jewish Synagogues, so you are wrong right off the bat about the Church not being in Revelations. This entire message was for the Christian churches, read it and see for yourself...”

Then why is the word synagogue used in Revelation?  Again, why do you think because you see the word church it means local churches of today or even the first century since…Rev. 1:4 – John is in the future – he is not looking at church age churches.

”You would do yourself a huge favor to read the following also...”

Yes, I can use a concordance and see the word churches but we’ve covered this before.
Is it a coincidence that in Rev. the emphasis is on the twelve tribes?
Is it a coincidence that in Rev. 12 the emphasis is on Israel (mentioned 3 times through out the epistle)?
Is it a coincidence about the two JEWISH witness of Rev. 12?
Is it a coincidence about all the other Jewish references in Rev:
Rev. 5:5, 8, 10 (Compare with Ex. 19:6 and Deut.); 4 beasts (Ezek.); New Jerusalem (Rev. 21); keeping the commandments (Rev. 22), etc?

”Here are more examples of the Church (Christians) in Revelations.
Rev 6:9”

You see church age saints  – I see tribulation saints not body of Christ.
According to Eph. 1-3 the church, which is His body is in heaven, far above all principalities and powers – not on earth during the tribulation.  Why would the Lord drag His body down to earth to go through the tribulation?  Doesn’t match Paul - II Tim. 2:7.

”Don't ignore the facts my friend, they are here in plain English.”

Well, at least I’m still your friend but you are ignoring the book as a whole and reading into it a truth you and others have been taught for years is there but it is not – sorry.

”Look at that...white robes were given to them...every one of them.”

Makes good preaching but poor doctrine.  When God saved me I did not get white robes I became the righteousness of Christ in Him – Rom. 3:22 – robes not are associated with saints anywhere in Paul’s epistles.

”Want to read in the Bible the exact point where the Rapture is described?”

Bronze – I’m trying to be gracious here while you are treating me like a kid.  I think I’ve seen the “rapture” verses before.

”Rev 4:1 which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.  “

I think Christ is talking to John – see vs. 2 “I” (John) – not us in this age. Earlier this phrase is mentioned in Rev. 1:1 and it is not talking to us but John. Makes exciting preaching – poor doctrine.

”Wowee! A door was opened…Where have I read that before???
”1Th 4:16 1Th 4:17 - ”What an amazing coincidence!”

What an amazing misplacement of a second-advent event!
Yes, I said end of tribulation – second-advent references to a catching away of tribulation saints at the end of the tribulation.  I used to think that was referring to a pre-tribulation rapture but after careful study it is a second advent reference not a church age reference.  

”1) Many Christians in Revelations, and you don't need any microscope to find them”

The word “Christian” appears nowhere in the book.

I’m bewildered but not surprised – been dealing with this teaching for years.  The reason so many are so confused over this is because they just don’t know the unique place the body of Christ has in God’s plan – plain and simple.

Look Bronze, I’m not trying to take anything away from you.  I’m trying to give you a blessing.  The body of Christ is a heavenly body sitting in the heavenly places right this moment.  If you are saved then you are in Christ and Christ is at the right hand of the Father, which puts you in eternity at this moment.  The body of Christ is a not an earthly calling – that is for Israel and the Gentile nations.  We are not coming down again to earth – we have been purposed to sit far above the heavens and display the manifold wisdom of God for eternity (Eph. 3:10). Isn’t that great!?!?!?!  

I’m trying to open up the heart here – we have a position like no other ever has – the tribulation is for the establishing of an earthly kingdom for Israel, which was the subject and theme of the OT.  We are not in the OT – we are a mystery hidden from all till Paul got it from the Lord.  

With that – I’m drained but game.  If you want to carry on I’m interested.

May God bless  

DITTO

Amen AVBunyan  Amen

[AVBunyan]

Jesus Christ is the focus of Revelation, not Israel or the Church.

Paul2 - Amen - I don't have a problem with your statement:

Col 1:18  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

I'm just trying to show the emphasis Christ is putting on Israel not the church which is His body - the body of Christ is not going through any part of the tribulation.

By the way - I believe I thess. 4 and I Cor.15 are end of  tribulation references - I lean towards:

Col 3:1  If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2  Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3  For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4  When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

May God bless  

[Bronzesnake]

AVBunnyan quote...

"Bronze – I’m trying to be gracious here while you are treating me like a kid.  I think I’ve seen the “rapture” verses before."

I apologize, I guess I was getting carried away with myself wasn't I?

You know, it's very hard to judge a person's demeanour through reading some text, and sometimes we mistake a person as having a boastful attitude. That seems to be what I did when you said things such as...

 "I’ve decided to boil it down to 2 simple steps to make it easy for you."

or...

"Undo all that God did at your salvation.  
See how easy it is! Now, let’s go down a simple list of things that God did and all you have to do is make this list your check list and mark them all as you undo them.  OK put your tennis shoes on and let’s go!!!"

or...

"very easy to handle if you know how to rightly divide the scriptures - II Tim. 2:17"

That implies that I am beneath your standard of understanding doesn't it? It implies that you have all the right answers doesn't it?

then there's ...

"Why not take the plain sense of the scriptures Paul presents for your eternal security instead of fleeing into the tribulation in order to try and lose your salvation?"


 All very patronizing, and almost self righteous my friend, you will probably concede that?

I do believe you are an honest Christian and most likely a really nice person. If we actually ever met, we would no doubt become friends and all these childish barbs that we callously toss around would be shelved.

I do however, believe in pre-Trib Rapture. I honestly feel that your position and explanation of some of the scriptures in Revelation are some-what weak.

It's senseless for us to keep going at one another verse vs verse, but I will give a few quick examples.

 For starters you referred to ...

just because we see the word “church” doesn’t mean it is the church, which is His body. How about the church in the wilderness (Acts 7:38)

Your point is well taken, however, we must take these verses in their proper context. The church in the wilderness was not the "Jewish church" that you believe it was. It was a direct reference to John the Baptist preaching in the wilderness about Jesus.

Then there's this comment about not being able to find the church (Christians) in Revelation....

"Yes, that is exactly what I’m saying.  The church, which is His body (Eph. 5:30; 1:22,23, etc.), is not an earthly people in God’s eyes but a heavenly people seated in the heavenly places in Christ (Eph. 2:6, etc.).

Without trying to sound brash, I must say that is just convoluted thinking. It appears that you are playing word games to try and side step the truth... semantics.

 Believers of Jesus are the church, on earth or in Heaven...period.

You took a single verse..."Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:  " ...

and tried to use it to suggest we are not considered His church until we are in Heaven. Of course you are forced into it, other-wise you would have to concede that the church is all over Revelations.

 Christ’s body suddenly comes down from heaven to go through the tribulation?

Who said that?... We get Raptured before the Tribulation, and we return with Jesus after the Tribulation as is clearly described in Rev 19:14 at that point the game is over, if you read on that's when Jesus kicks some serious bum.

 That is not the purpose of the church!  The purpose of Revelation is the consummation of God’s plan regarding the nations and Israel.  Paul revealed the completed plan for the church in Ephesians and Colossians – Col. 1:25 and Eph. 3:10."

Here, again you are totally ignoring what Jesus said in the opening verses of Revelations.

Please read it out loud to yourself...honestly, and listen to what Jesus says.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:  

God gave Jesus Christ the Revelation of Christ to show His servants ( that's us, no matter how you slice it my brother) what is about to happen. It's so plain and simple, but if you refuse to believe that the church (Christians) are the servants which is spoken of here, then you will be hopelessly confused as to what's going on.

 The seven churches that Jesus warns are Christian churches. It is a matter of historical reality that those churches have been identified by historians as the very first Christian churches, and they are located (or were located) in the exact locations that the Bible places them.

Jesus is warning us to be ready for His imminent return.

Like I said it makes no sense going back and forth, so I will finish my part of this debate with the following...

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  


Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,  


 Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Think about it. God says the coming of the son of man is near when the conditions on earth are as they were in the days of Noah. Everyone of the non believers were carry on in their lascivious lifestyles with no cares or worries. They laughed at the crazy man who was building a huge boat!

That's right, God supplied a way of escape for the believers, and He says it will be the same this time also, only this time our escape is when Jesus calls us to "come up hither"

Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The church is found in Revelations. What do you think those seven churches are?... remember, they are historically proven to be the first Christian churches, but you seem to believe that when they are mentioned in Revelations, that by some mystical power-flip, they are no longer Christian churches.

Your brother in Jesus...
Bronzesnake