Lose Your Salvation in Two Easy Steps

[Shylynne]

What works can we do to earn our salvation? How much is enough? Which works are good enough? If I do more than someone else, am I more saved than they are?  

I dont think arithmetic is Gods focus lol...or mine  
But God did tell Moses, "I'm in charge of mercy. I'm in charge of compassion"...then God tells us in  Rev 2:23...   and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

I am not talking about obtaining salvation thru the works of the law here, obviously the Word says this is not the way of salvation,  but rather that true faith produces works of righteousness, and these two MUST go hand in hand.

To say true faith produces action, is to say showing faith BY works, not one negating the other. We read in Jam 2:14  What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? As James makes very clear in this passage faith cannot stand alone, or salvation is not found in faith alone.
This is the law of faith.

Then we read where Titus says in chapter 1:16  They profess that they know God; but in works [by implication an act: - deed, doing, labour] they deny him...so again true faith produces action, or no action indicates no real faith.

Even James said in chapter 2:24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, [that is, show or regard as just or innocent - be righteous] and not by faith only. So according to this we are found righteous by works AND faith.

Act 10:35  But in every nation he that feareth him, AND worketh [to toil -as a task, occupation - be engaged in or with - commit, do, labor for,  work.] righteousness, is accepted with him.  So if I dont do works of righteousness i`m not accepted? It would seem so.

To say I believe in Jesus Christ, so therefore i`m eternally saved is to leave out the requirements found in the rest of the scripture. To me its like saying I believed, so I can`t be judged now. HUH? Salvation to us is a gift given by God alone. Can we toss this gift away, according to His word yes we can.  He also makes it possible for us to live in his righteousness, but what happens if we dont?

Heb 2:1  Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let [them] slip.
Heb 2:2  For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
Heb 2:3  How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];
So I wont escape God`s judgement if I NEGLECT His gift?
I recieved salvation, and I did`nt do a thing after that, not one single work, but i`m saved anyways?

By shifting our focus from what we do to what God does, do we cancel out all our careful keeping of the ways God commanded? Paul says in Rom 3:31 God Forbid! One confirms the other, not voiding it.

Rev 2:19  I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last [to be] more than the first. This surely says God`s keeping track. We obtain salvation as a free gift, then we must continue on, or else, the words overcoming, holding fast, striving, perfecting, holiness, etc, to enter Heavens gates would not be in God`s vocabulary.

[Shylynne]

According to the above verses and many more a man who is truely redeemed will have good works but......not to justify himself before God but to please God because he is saved!

AV I was  simply voicing my thoughts on this subject in general, and when I say I do not understand how any bible scholar can adhere to these doctrines I mean just that. I truly do not understand, I am quite familiar with these teachings and to me they simply do not fit with the whole of God`s Word. I`m not looking for a debate, for I`ve seen this subject debated a thousand times if not once, I reserve the right  to add  my five cents worth tho  

But while i`m here, I do have a question for you concerning a few of your  statements. I was`nt accusing you who believe this doctrine of being bumps on a log...cute...surely hope your not lol...but rather taking issue with half truths...what I would call baking a cake without the leaven.  You said a man does`nt do works to justify himself, yet what do you do with this scripture? James 2:24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Is James telling us the truth here or are you? According to your statement it has to be one or the other.


Also you said:

I believe those who believe in grace alone are the most zealous for souls and have confidence in their message because it is scriptural.  I can tell a man that Christ died for his sins and because of that he is saved - a comforting message that produces joy and confidence in the man because the message is centered on Christ. This message produces results in the sinner.

Is`nt it  a conceited statement to make that those who believe in grace alone are the most zealous to win souls lol.
whatever    I`m sure this message produces results,  and a comforting message it is, regardless, a half truth will remain a half truth no matter how it`s presented, and I believe your message is certianly that.  

That is why I make a big deal out of etenral se3curity for the real issue is justification.  When I deal with the issue of etenral security I am realy dealing with justification before God while using OSAS as the tool to bring the man to a fuller understanding of the great doctrine of justification.

That sounded a whole lot like a excuse for leaving part of the message out,  and OSAS would be a great tool, if it only took a saw to build a house  

And I think my former posts say why I make a great deal of the fact that the doctrine of eternal security is not scriptural, and the real issue here is what is Truth according to Gods word, not yours or mine.

[ollie]

There is a lot debate today on losing one’s salvation. I’ve decided to boil it down to 2 simple steps to make it easy for you.

1. Do something that causes you to lose it.  
Now, I don’t know what that “something” could be because Paul never talked about it and since Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles and the revealer of the body of Christ to us today then he would be the one to tell us what to do to lose it.  Since Paul spent 13 epistles expounding Christ and justification surely he would spend some time on how to lose it!
 
2. Undo all that God did at your salvation.  
See how easy it is! Now, let’s go down a simple list of things that God did and all you have to do is make this list your check list and mark them all as you undo them.  OK put your tennis shoes on and let’s go!!!

1) Get God to un-forgive you – Eph. 1:7
2) Get God to un-redeem you - Rom. 3:24
3) Get God to un-circumcise you – Col. 2:13
4) Get God to un-adopt you – Rom. 8:15
5) Get God to un-seat you – Eph. 2:6
6) Get God to un-sanctify you – I Cor. 6:11
7) Get God to un-glorify you – Rom. 8:30
8. Get God to un-seal you – Eph. 1:13
9) Get God to un-justify you – Rom. 3:24; 8:30
10) Get God to un-bless you – Eph. 1:3
11) Get God to un-bury you – Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:12
12) Get God to un-raise you – Eph. 2:6
13) Get God to un-quicken you – Eph. 2:1
14) Get God to take Christ out of you – Col. 1:27
15) Get God to take you out of Christ’s physical body – Eph. 5:30
And a few more that I failed to present here.

Now, you se how simple that was – if you can undo all that God has done for you then you are free and clear once again.  Then when you “repent” and get right then all the above 15 things will happen again.  Then when you “sin it away” again then you can undo it all over again!  My what a life!  About as confusing as a termite in a yoyo/

Yes, I know all those verses in Matthew (before the cross) and all those verses in Hebrews and James (doctrinally during the tribulation) and of course Revelation (during the 7 year tribulation where the body of Christ is not present anyway) – Yes, I’ve seen all those verses, had them thrown out of context at me for over 20 years now.

Until you can show me how a blood-bought, redeemed, regenerated saint in this age can lose all that God has done for him then I might give you a listen.  Until then I will stay secure in Christ for all eternity – glory!!!


May God bless  

"Until you can show me how a blood-bought, redeemed, regenerated saint in this age can lose all that God has done for him then I might give you a listen.  Until then I will stay secure in Christ for all eternity – glory!!!"



1 John 2:24.  Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

What happens if that which one hears does not remain in one?
Do they continue in the Son, and in the Father?

Pray hard,
Ollie

[sincereheart]

michael_legna:Works don't earn you salvation, they are a loving repsonse to the gift just as faith is, but they are required none the less.  No amount of works are enough; God only requires that we don't stop (just as he requires that we not stop believing) and if we do that we repent of it.
Shylynne:I am not talking about obtaining salvation thru the works of the law here, obviously the Word says this is not the way of salvation,  but rather that true faith produces works of righteousness, and these two MUST go hand in hand.


So apparently everyone agrees that works don't earn you salvation?

So then, What are 'works'? What are some specifics that count that rich and poor alike can do to show their appreciation for the gift of salvation?
(I'm thinking that maybe this is where some of the disagreement comes from...)

[AVBunyan]

Shylynne said:

"AV I was  simply voicing my thoughts on this subject in general, and when I say I do not understand how any bible scholar can adhere to these doctrines I mean just that...I reserve the right  to add  my five cents worth tho"

Please forgive me if I overreacted or initially misrepresnted your motive.  I get too defensive when I am in a hurry or not thinking clearly and sometimes come across wrongly - my bad.

"But while I`m here, I do have a question for you concerning a few of your  statements. I was`nt accusing you who believe this doctrine of being bumps on a log...cute...surely hope your not lol..."

Again, my bad for over reacting defensively - it is called sin on my part - I ask your forgiveness - you ask or make a statement in the search for truth and I come down like a hammer. People have accused those who believe in grace that they get saved and do little afterwards or they abuse grace.  And yes, that does happen - sad but true.  I was seeking to defend what should take place and has for those true saints that do believe in grace alone.  And you accurately hit upon what is wrong with true saints today (including me) - The old saints 1600-1870's or so were truly busy saints.  They believed they were saved to work and serve God 24 hrs. a day and sacrifice while doing.   Today we, (including myself) have a "convenient Christianity" - if it is convenient I'll do it and espcially if I can look good.  If it is going to cost me then I'll have to think about it.  Now, I know there are saints today that are not this way but I trust you know what I'm trying to say.  

"James 2:24  Is James telling us the truth here or are you? According to your statement it has to be one or the other."

One of the most, if not the most discussed verses regarding justification, unfortunately.  I will tell you what I believe to be so. James is right and I am right - how about that.  Please allow me to explain:

Two things put one on shakey ground when going  to James for doctrinal truths for us today.
1. James 1:1 says the book was written to the twelve tribes of Israel. One can make application all day but the fact is who is the book written to?  To the twelve tribes scattered abroad - puts you doctrinally in the tribulation where they will be scattered abroad.  Historically ther were also but in the trib they will be scattered by the persecution of the antichrist and beast.
2. James 2:24 is contrary to Paul accoriding to Rom. 3:22; Gal. 2:16 an others.  Paul says the sinner is justified by the faith of the Son of God and not of works - Eph. 2:8,9.  

So James and Paul are both right.  Paul for us today in this age and James for Jews in tribulation.  Also, historically James is a very early Acts book when during that time the body of Christ truth had not been revealed and the tribulation could have started at the time if Israel had accepted their messiah.

One more thing the phrase "justified by" shows up 14 times or so inteh NT.  Out of those 14 only 2 refernece works as aprt while the other 12 are the opposite.  Why do many take the  "2" while forgetting the 12?  Just a thought.

Also you said:

I believe those who believe in grace alone are the most zealous for souls and have confidence in their message because it is scriptural.

"Isn't it a conceited statement to make that those who believe in grace alone are the most zealous to win souls lol.
whatever   "

Conceited?  No.  Broad stroke, probably.  Should I have even said that?  Probably not.  I know people who don't believe OSAS witness - I just believe those who do believe faith alone witness more. History has proven that those who hold to the doctrines of grace did most of the missionary work from 1700-1870. I am going by what I've seen and observed.  Yes, I know JW's and Mormons are active and put many of us to shame with their discipline.  People pick on Calvinists but many of the greatest preachers and missionaries who preached to the lost and went to the mission fields were Calvinists!

That is why I make a big deal out of etenral security for the real issue is justification.

"That sounded a whole lot like a excuse for leaving part of the message out,  and OSAS would be a great tool, if it only took a saw to build a house"

Not sure of your thinking here - would you mind explaining?

"And I think my former posts say why I make a great deal of the fact that the doctrine of eternal security is not scriptural, and the real issue here is what is Truth according to Gods word, not yours or mine."

OK, my main point in the OP was that God has done a mighty and miracoulsy set of operations to provide us with our standing before him. How can we, in our own power, undo what God miraculously did?  Just take the first chapter of Ephesians and look at the past tense words Paul's uses.  The whole first chapter is what God, the Spirit and Christ did -while man is mentioned as the recipient only of all they did.

Again, I aplogize for coming across proud or defensive  - again my bad. I trust I've expalined somewhat of where I was coming from.

May God bless you  

[Shylynne]

Shylynne:I am not talking about obtaining salvation thru the works of the law here, obviously the Word says this is not the way of salvation,  but rather that true faith produces works of righteousness, and these two MUST go hand in hand.


So apparently everyone agrees that works don't earn you salvation?

So then, What are 'works'? What are some specifics that count that rich and poor alike can do to show their appreciation for the gift of salvation?
(I'm thinking that maybe this is where some of the disagreement comes from...)

I think the best way I can explain what I mean by works of righteousness is to refer to Rev 2:19  I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last [to be] more than the first.
Since Jesus said on two commandments hang all the law, that is to love God with all our  hearts, souls, and minds,
and to love our neighbors as ourselves, I believe the works that true faith produces are based on these commandments to serve Him and others to the very best of our ability.

[michael_legna]

michael_legna:Works don't earn you salvation, they are a loving repsonse to the gift just as faith is, but they are required none the less.  No amount of works are enough; God only requires that we don't stop (just as he requires that we not stop believing) and if we do that we repent of it.
Shylynne:I am not talking about obtaining salvation thru the works of the law here, obviously the Word says this is not the way of salvation,  but rather that true faith produces works of righteousness, and these two MUST go hand in hand.


So apparently everyone agrees that works don't earn you salvation?

So then, What are 'works'? What are some specifics that count that rich and poor alike can do to show their appreciation for the gift of salvation?
(I'm thinking that maybe this is where some of the disagreement comes from...)

First, Shy Lynne and I don't agree completely, as she sees works as just the results of faith (I think).  I see them as the results of faith but also the companion and in some cases even preceeding faith (as in the case of repentance).  Additionally works serve to perfect our faith once it is formed and the fruits of something cannot perfect their origin, thus works must also for this reason be more than just the fruits of faith.  So in a sense a perfect faith is the fruit of works.

But I think we would agree that both faith and works are the fruits of grace.  Without grace we can neither do pleasing works nor even seek God let alone make a decision of faith.

Now on to your question -

What are 'works'? What are some specifics that count that rich and poor alike can do to show their appreciation for the gift of salvation?

First of course is repentance, and not merely in the sense of being sorry, but in the sense of the original greek term, metanoia, which is a military term meaning about face - it includes more than just changing your mind but the concept of reformation is included, thus it is works.  Without repentance faith is not possible.

Next comes love.

Gal 5:14  For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1Co 13:2-3  And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.  And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Specifically, we can take a clue from the definition of a good religion.

Jam 1:27  Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Finally it all boils down to the golden rule.

Mat 7:12  Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

There is a famous Rabbi (and the name escapes me right now) who was asked to explain the entire Old Testament while standing on one foot.  He said - Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, all the rest is details.  (Of course I am paraphrasing as I can't even find his name right now but I am confident of the story).

I think the rest of the specifics are obvious once you stop and think about them.  But I will be glad to go into more if people are interested.  I have in other posts listed the works we are instructed to do (along with faith) for eternal life and some of them relate of course to serving others for God's glory and I am willing to provide that list again if anyone cannot find it.

[Shylynne]

Please forgive me if I overreacted or initially misrepresnted your motive.  I get too defensive when I am in a hurry or not thinking clearly and sometimes come across wrongly - my bad.

I didnt think you overreacted, besides not thinking clearly is my fortay   My motive is always simply to agree where I agree, and disagree where I disagree, and back up what I have to say with scripture.  

People have accused those who believe in grace that they get saved and do little afterwards or they abuse grace.  And yes, that does happen - sad but true.  I was seeking to defend what should take place and has for those true saints that do believe in grace alone.  And you accurately hit upon what is wrong with true saints today (including me) - The old saints 1600-1870's or so were truly busy saints.  They believed they were saved to work and serve God 24 hrs. a day and sacrifice while doing.   Today we, (including myself) have a "convenient Christianity" - if it is convenient I'll do it and espcially if I can look good.  If it is going to cost me then I'll have to think about it.  Now, I know there are saints today that are not this way but I trust you know what I'm trying to say.

That was well said, and is why I believe to love God with all your heart soul and mind entails some 'work' on our part, and why I think to teach "faith alone" leaves out the other just as important part of the equation.  

"James 2:24  Is James telling us the truth here or are you? According to your statement it has to be one or the other."

One of the most, if not the most discussed verses regarding justification, unfortunately.  I will tell you what I believe to be so. James is right and I am right - how about that.  Please allow me to explain:

Two things put one on shakey ground when going  to James for doctrinal truths for us today.
1. James 1:1 says the book was written to the twelve tribes of Israel. One can make application all day but the fact is who is the book written to?  To the twelve tribes scattered abroad - puts you doctrinally in the tribulation where they will be scattered abroad.  Historically ther were also but in the trib they will be scattered by the persecution of the antichrist and beast.
2. James 2:24 is contrary to Paul accoriding to Rom. 3:22; Gal. 2:16 an others.  Paul says the sinner is justified by the faith of the Son of God and not of works - Eph. 2:8,9.  

So James and Paul are both right.  Paul for us today in this age and James for Jews in tribulation.  Also, historically James is a very early Acts book when during that time the body of Christ truth had not been revealed and the tribulation could have started at the time if Israel had accepted their messiah.

One more thing the phrase "justified by" shows up 14 times or so inteh NT.  Out of those 14 only 2 refernece works as aprt while the other 12 are the opposite.  Why do many take the  "2" while forgetting the 12?  Just a thought.

First let me say that I dont adhere to any doctrine that teaches some of the NT apply`s only during that time period, and some for today. Period. Tho I do agree asking who the author was talking too and how it apply`s to us is very key in understanding scripture. I`ve lost count of the times i`ve read just on this forum where people have used that arguement, that part of the NT Word applys to us, part does not, that to me is just one step up from those who say the Word contradicts itself. If I were going to adapt to such theology, i`d as soon toss the Book in its entirety out the window.

To quote another commentary: "Galatians 5:6, a crucial text in seeing Paul and James in harmony with each other. "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love." So when Paul dealt with the abuse of his doctrine of justification by faith alone, he said: It's not added works like circumcision that will win God's favor. What then? It is "faith working through love." Notice very carefully what he says. What counts with God? "Faith." But what kind of faith? Faith that "works through love." He does not say that want counts with God is "faith" plus a layer of loving works added to faith. He says that what counts with God is the kind of faith that by its nature produces love. But it is faith that gives us our right standing with God. The love that comes from it only shows that it is, in fact, real living, justifying faith.

Now that, I think, is what James was trying to get across to his churches. Loveless faith is absolutely useless; and anybody that comes along and says "We are justified by faith alone, and so you don't have to be a loving person to go to heaven" is not telling the truth."

 http://www.desiringgod.org/library/sermons/99/080899.html  

"That sounded a whole lot like a excuse for leaving part of the message out,  and OSAS would be a great tool, if it only took a saw to build a house"

Not sure of your thinking here - would you mind explaining?

I`m saying osas does not complete the structure of Gods plan of salvation.

OK, my main point in the OP was that God has done a mighty and miracoulsy set of operations to provide us with our standing before him. How can we, in our own power, undo what God miraculously did?  Just take the first chapter of Ephesians and look at the past tense words Paul's uses.  The whole first chapter is what God, the Spirit and Christ did -while man is mentioned as the recipient only of all they did.

Again I agree, but to add to that, what man must do following  what Christ did, does receive more than mere mention.

I like what Ollie said "PRAY HARD"  

[Petro]

shylynne,

I would be careful, to believe anything other than what the scriptures teach;

First, Shy Lynne and I don't agree completely, as she sees works as just the results of faith (I think).  I see them as the results of faith but also the companion and in some cases even preceeding faith (as in the case of repentance).  Additionally works serve to perfect our faith once it is formed and the fruits of something cannot perfect their origin, thus works must also for this reason be more than just the fruits of faith.  So in a sense a perfect faith is the fruit of works.

Many decievers have gone out in these days, to decieve those who are not wary.

The scriptures are clear to point out, that;

Faith, will accomplish Gods work, in every believer and that is  "that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Jhn 6:29, it is Gods Work......... that brings men to Faith in Christ Jesus, if it were not for HIS WORK, no man could come to FAITH.

Despisers of Grace and FAITH, begin Gods gift, always separate the two, claiming they shared in Gods work by doing their part, so salvation to these is Gods Grace, and their faith.

Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.  Mat 24:4

On way of decviieving is to get you to agree with them.....



Gal5
22  .....the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

And it is Faith unto Faith, for the Just shall live by Faith, not by works....

Faith is not the fruit of works nor any kind of works, man can do............at all, it is the the result Gods Mercy and Grace, which will enable one to accomplish works pleasing to God.

Any other works under any other condition are as filthy wrags, before God.


I would be very careful when agreeing with anyone who might twist scripture to mean other than what it clear teaches.

Blessings,

Petro

[Shylynne]

On way of decviieving is to get you to agree with them.....


Petro according to this you adapt to the idea if a man is deemed wrong on one point, he`s wrong on all points?
So if I dont agree with michael on some things, I am being deceived if I agree with him on other things?
So if i`m wrong on some point, nothing I say has any validity?
So if your wrong on some point, I`d better be careful not to listen to anything you have to say either?  

Any other works under any other condition are as filthy wrags, before God.

Have you twisted the scripture that says our righteousness is as filthy rags  

Petro, again FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.

[sincereheart]

michael_legna and Shylynne,

If you go a whole day and do no works, will you lose your salvation?

Just for today alone, what specific works have you done?  

[Shylynne]

 The whole of the matter is, if my faith in God produces  no works, it`s proof I have no faith, it`s (dead) non-existant, no matter how much I might 'say' I  possess it.  

To answer your question, Paul in instructing Timothy says this: ...They don't help anyone to do God's work that can only be done by faith. (faith and work tied together)
1Ti 1:5  You must teach people to have genuine love, as well as a good conscience and true faith.
1Ti 1:19  You will be faithful and have a clear conscience. Some people have made a mess of their faith because they didn't listen to their consciences. (from 1Ti :1) The kjv uses the words shipwrecked faith.
Do I think salvation is lost in a day? No, but I personally know the meaning of shipwrecked faith, and how one day of neglecting my faith (again true faith producing the words, deeds, actions that are proof positive we have faith) turns into another, until one day there is nothing left of the faith I claimed to possess. In the OT he prophet Jeremiah calls this perpetual backsliding.
Tit 3:8  [This is] a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

[ollie]

michael_legna and Shylynne,

If you go a whole day and do no works, will you lose your salvation?

Just for today alone, what specific works have you done?  

Forgive my inclusion. This seems appropo.
 1 Corinthians 3:13.  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
 14.  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
 15.  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
 

[michael_legna]

If you go a whole day and do no works, will you lose your salvation?

Since salvation is an end result of the entire process I have not yet gained it, the race as Paul says is not yet complete.

Heb 12:1  Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

But if I do no works for an entire day, I would be at risk of losing the free gift, especially if I did not repent of the sin.  Because not doing something you know to do is sin just as much as actively doing something you know not to do.

Jam 4:17  Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Just for today alone, what specific works have you done?  

You mean besides witnessing to you?  

[sincereheart]

You mean besides witnessing to you?  

Wow - I must have missed that. Isn't it amazing how God protects me?