The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church

[david749]

Here is an article from today on Yahoo about the Gulf Oil Spill:       http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_sci_oil_spill_lingers


This spill has killed much sea life and apparently continues to do so.  The corexit used is also highly toxic.  There is also some danger of methane gas.  There is speculation that it has also affected the warm waters that normally flow up toward the UK and Europe.  This would result in much colder winters for much of Europe.  The full effects of this huge disaster remain to be seen. 



Date spill began:        April 20th         (also the date of Hitler's birth)


Well officially sealed:     Sept 19, 2010        (possible date of the beginning of Daniel's 70th week as mentioned in the previous post)

[nChrist]

My personal thoughts are that there must be a major war first and thus the conditions that are right for all parties to consider peace. I think that had Obama made a peace treaty in 9-2010 that he would have shouted it from the rooftops for political gain. Keep in mind that these are just thoughts. I also think that the Middle-East is ripe for a major conflict at any minute, and that might be the conflict leading to the false peace treaty. I also believe in more literal time frames once the clock starts ticking. I think there's a reason why Daniel's Prophecy is so specific in terms of days. We are living in a time right now where the clock has been stopped - between the 69th and 70th week - the Church Age or the Age of Grace. The Church Age will end when the "fulness of the Gentiles be come in" - the last person added to the Church which is the Body of Christ - a number that only God knows. The Age of Grace will have to end before the Tribulation Period can begin. I don't believe there are overlaps of time, but I understand that many don't share my views.

Regardless, it's a fascinating and perilous time that we live in. As Christians, our part will be to yield to God's Will every day until He comes to take us Home - whatever time that might be.

[david749]

Here are some interesting topics of study for people to examine to see whether things are just happening in a random fashion in the world........or whether there are forces at work which are not easily visible to the common eye.   Our Lord referred to those rejecting God as children of the devil......namely the current prince of this world....Satan.   He can inspire people under his influence to do much evil. 


1.  The Georgia Guidestones
2.  The Denver Airport Conspiracy
3.  Bohemian Grove
4.  The Annual Bilderberg Meetings
5.  The Rise of the Fourth Reich


A sampler:     http://www.prisonplanet.com/archive_bilderberg.html

[david749]

Thanks Tom for your input.  God is always there to help us........no matter how big the challenge or difficulty that might lay before us.

[david749]

Satan has been allowed to be prince of this world for awhile now........and it is therefore important to distinguish between his wrath and the wrath of God. 

Many of the early followers were martyred and this continues to occur in various parts of the world even today.  Human history is full of much evil........evil actions inspired by the father of evil.....satan. 

This should be no surprise to us if we examine history. 

So the key question is:   where does God's wrath begin in the end times???


God's wrath is clearly announced as about to begin at the 6th Seal.... after a period of darkness in the world.  The great ones of the earth hide in fear in caves and state:

"Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!  For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"   (Rev. 6: 15-17)

God has not appointed us to wrath.........namely His wrath.


The 144,000 of Israel are then sealed from harm.  They will remain on earth.  Then a great multitude from all the nations is discussed standing in heaven.  This is the "rapture."

Then you have God's wrath.......the 7th Seal.......which lasts approx. 1.5 years........the final portion of Daniel's 70th Week.  The 5th trumpet judgment by itself is 5 months in duration. 


The 144,000 of Israel are not sealed from harm prior to the 1st Seal of Revelation..........but just prior to the 7th Seal. 


The terms "Tribulation Period" and "The Great Tribulation Period" are not found in Scripture.  They are man-made concepts that have been added to Scripture.  Those expressions should not be used as they can lead to error when reading Scripture. 

All you have describing the final 7 years is Daniel's 70th week.  The 70 weeks prophecy was given to Daniel as an answer to his intersession for his people Israel.  There is a peace covenant at the beginning of Daniel's 70 week but no evidence that God's wrath begins there. 

The Seals of Revelation on the other hand were given by Christ for the Church.  Although they will share some events with Daniel's 70th week in the end times.........they are not exactly the same things.  There is no evidence that the First Seal must be broken at the same time as the peace covenant of Daniel's 70th week.   The First Seal may have been broken many years ago.   There is no evidence in Scripture that the 7 Seals must be 7 years in duration.

[nChrist]

Hello Brother David,

I had planned some more input for discussion, but I'm not feeling well today and I'm running behind on my work. I'll try to do better tomorrow. We're having a rather pleasant discussion, even though we disagree, so I'd like to continue it. The term "Great Tribulation" is found in the Bible, and so it the "Time of Jacob's Trouble" - the same time frame - the last 1/2 of the Tribulation period.

Matthew 24:20-22 KJV  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:  21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.  22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Jeremiah 30:7-8 KJV  Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.  8  For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:

Love In Christ,
Tom

[david749]

Thanks Tom.......hope that you feel better soon. 


It is important to me not to make anyone upset or angry with my writings........and hope very much to have a discussion that is as free from human emotion as possible. 


As for me.... I did follow the Pre-Trib position for awhile after becoming a Christian in Sept of 1988.  However as far as prophecy goes.........the initial teachings came to me from TV and Christian books.  It was not until later on that I actually began studying just the Word.... without external influence. 


For Mt 24: 21-22..........one would have to drop teachings from one's mind about "The Great Tribulation Period" prior to reading the verse.    It is best to do this because Scripture does not specifically define this as 3.5 years.....to my knowledge....anywhere.    Only prophecy books, etc do this. 


Once a person divorces himself from this concept..........then we would just interpret the words that are in the Scripture..........the words that are actually presented before us.   


"For then there will be great tribulation........."


This should just be interpreted as a time of great trouble.     The length of this time of trouble is not specified in the passage nor anywhere in Chapter 24.   


By not mentally assigning 3.5 years to it...........it is therefore easy to see how God can shorten or end those terrible days at a time when He chooses.


I always had to kind of skip over verses 21 and 22 in the past.............as how could God shorten something which is a fixed 3.5 years? 

[nChrist]

Hello Brother David,

Actually, God's Word does give time frames - years and even days of various events - including the Tribulation Period.

Take a look at "End Times! - Footsteps of the Messiah" at the top of this section for a series of excellent briefs on this subject. Daniel's "Weeks" are weeks of years, and we are waiting for the 70th Week (7 years) to begin. Midway into the week is the "Abomination of Desolation in the Holy Place" and the beginning of "Jacob's Trouble" - the last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation Period. In the same area, you will find several excellent briefs on the Rapture, wars, Judgments, the Anti-Christ, the False Prophet, the Second Coming of Christ, and much more. Take a look at them and follow along with your Bible.

I've been studying these topics for many years, and I learn something new every time I open my Bible. None of them are easy or quick to study. I think that most will find out fairly quickly why there are various interpretations. I'm still looking at several, but I am heavily partial to a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

[david749]

OK thanks Tom.   I hope that you are feeling better.  There are a few bad bugs going around.  Have a very nice week and stay warm.    David

[nChrist]

OK thanks Tom.   I hope that you are feeling better.  There are a few bad bugs going around.  Have a very nice week and stay warm.    David

Thanks! Arthritis in my back has been giving me fits, but I'm trying not to complain because I have too much to give thanks for. I think that most of my recent problems have been due to drastic temperature changes up and down, including some snow and ice storms. I'm over the bug I had, so it's just "uncle arthur" now.

I've been taking another hard look at the ending of this Age of Grace and what it will mean in terms of changes in how God deals with mankind. I have some notes to share with you soon.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[david749]

I have noticed Tom that sometimes I get into my car a bit too early and find myself with my back pressed against a very cold seat for awhile.  This can cause some problems for quite a few hours afterword.  My wife uses a pad in her car and I have been trying to let the car warm up for awhile.....but sometimes I am in too much of a hurry. 

Anyway......keep your back warm at all times if you can.       Vitamin D, calcium, and magnesium are all good things as well for our bones and have other benefits as well. 


Take Care Tom. 

[david749]

As mentioned earlier in this thread, I feel that Daniel's 70th week may have begun on Sept 19th, 2010.  That would put us approx. 6 months and 1 week into Daniel's 70th week.


In order to verify this, several things would have to happen over the next three years.  As the 5th Seal of Revelation begins at the mid-point,,,,,,,,,,the 3rd and 4th Seals would have to be broken sometime over the next three years. 


The 3rd Seal......namely a day's wages for a loaf of bread........to my knowledge has never happened before on a worldwide basis.    If this to happen over the next year or so, it would add much validity to the original date suggested.....namely Sept 19, 2010.   If food prices do not explode over the next few years, the theory is proven false. 

The mathematical consideration consists of two elements..........(1) a prediction of something which has never happened before in human history and  (2)  that this event will take place over the next few years.


If you see the 3rd Seal in your lifetime.......this will give you time to prepare yourself spiritually, mentally, etc for movement to a remote location as the Lord has directed in Scripture.  He will take care of you.  There will be many supernatural events taking place during the second half of Daniel's 70th week.


I realize that many hold to the Pre-Trib position.........and I do not want to make anyone angry or upset.  If your position proves correct, then we will not have to be concerned about any of these things.  However, if you see the 3rd and 4th Seals take place in your lifetime.....and you are still on earth.....then this, to my knowledge, would prove that the Pre-Trib position is not correct. 


I only write these things out of concern for my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.  Although I have not met any of you, the Spirit has pressed His love for all of you upon my heart......and this feeling becomes very strong at times.   

[nChrist]

Hello Brother David,

A different opinion on the timing of the Rapture does not make me upset or angry. Some of my closest friends have differences of opinion with me. We manage not to call each other names and still have sweet fellowship. The only ones I get upset with are the ones who call names and things like questioning another person's intelligence for not sharing their opinion. I've studied views other than my own for years and still have the same opinion. Regardless, I'm ready for any outcome and know that God will be with us every step of the way if we simply ask Him.

Love In Christ,
Tom 

[HisDaughter]

Hi David,
We haven't met yet because I haven't been here in a while.  I like how you posted your view in a very humble way.  In reading the news I think we are on our way to "a days wages for a loaf of bread".  Scarry stuff is happening and has been happening rapidly and even more rapidly over the past couple of years.
I really don't know which view on the Rapture that I believe, but I have always at least hoped for a pretrib rapture.  I'm ready.  Many of my family members are not however.  I'm sure praying that they come to a saving knowledge of Christ soon.  Whatever view that we all hold, still says that time is indeed short.

Brother Tom often closes with "Keep looking up", and I do!

In Christ,

Yvette

[david749]

Thanks so much Tom and Yvette for your opinions and input.   We are brothers and sisters in Christ.......and as such we will have an eternity to get to know each other better.  Have a very nice week.


I also have friends and relatives who I am not sure about their relationship with the Lord.  I think that it is very important to pray for them.  I know that in my case, the Holy Spirit was very much involved in convicting me and showing me that I was lost.  Once I was shown by God that I was lost.........I cried out to the Lord to save me.  I thank God for His mercy and grace.........and for removing the blinders from my eyes.  He did this in Sept of 1988.


"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;  and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6: 44