The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church

[david749]

Not Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, nor Post-Trib.


If you want information about this position, I would be happy to share it with you. 

[nChrist]

Not Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, nor Post-Trib.


If you want information about this position, I would be happy to share it with you. 

Yes, I would be interested, but only if you don't have to go to a lot of trouble. I've seen the other positions debated numerous times, but I've heard very little about the Pre-Wrath position. The first Scripture I thought of that might support this is:

1 Thessalonians 5:8-10 KJV  8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.  9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,  10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.


My personal view is Pre-Tribulation, but I would appreciate knowing more about Pre-Wrath.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[david749]

Dear Tom,

Thanks for your reply and I hope that your day is going well.  


God has not appointed us to wrath......namely His wrath.  So it is very important to identify where exactly God's wrath begins.

Christians have been subject to Satan's wrath since Christ was here.  His disciples and many of His followers were killed for the sake of their beliefs.  This has continued over time even to this day.  Those who are not God's children continue as children of the devil.....and subject to his influence. They have come against both Christians and Jews on numerous occasions.   Hence, this concept is nothing new and will continue until Christ returns and Satan is no longer prince of this world.  

In the end times, Satan will no longer have access to heaven......will be kicked out......and will be especially full of wrath knowing that his time is short.   (Rev. Chp 12)


Israel was in captivity for grievous sin and rebellion and Daniel was praying on behalf of his people Israel.  He was asking God how long the punishment would last........how long God would hide His face from them.  He was given the 70 weeks prophecy as an answer to his prayer.  The common view is that 69 weeks have past and the final week remains for the final seven years prior to Christ's millennial kingdom.  

Hence the 70 weeks was given to Daniel for Israel.  Whereas, the book of Revelations was given by Christ for the Church.  There are of course overlapping events that are shared in common between the 70th week and the Seals of Revelation......but we should be careful not to view them as one and the same......i.e. identical.


The first two seals of Revelation are actually a bit vague and could have been broken many years ago.  We do not actually have a specific identifier until the 3rd Seal.... namely a day's wages for a loaf of bread.


The following terms are man-made expressions that are not found in the bible:   "The Tribulation Period"   "The Great Tribulation Period"    As such, we should not really be using such expressions either verbally or in our thoughts when discussing the final seven years.  The only biblical expression that defines the final 7 years is Daniel's 70th week.  

This might seem like a trivial matter but the fact is the many people learn about the final seven years from TV, books, human teachers, etc. before they even study it in depth from Scripture.  As such they incorporate the concepts into their minds (The Tribulation Period and The Great Tribulation Period) and when they do study the Word they will apply what they have accepted from human teachers when they come across a verse that includes the word:   tribulation.

We are however to translate Scripture in its most normal sense.  Tribulation would be a time of great difficulty..........the length of which is not specified.   To assign 3.5 or 7.0 years to the verse will result in error.  

For example, Jesus is talking about the end times in Matthew 24.  In verse 15 is talks about the abomination standing in the holy place.  He tells people to leave everything behind and flee to the wilderness.  A great persecution is about to begin.  

We then get to verse 21 and 22.  

"For then there will be great tribulation,  such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.  And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved;  but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened."

From verse 15, we know the we are at the middle of Daniel's 70th week.  A great persecution is about to begin by the man of evil.....as part of Satan's wrath.  Satan has been kicked out of heaven full of wrath.

Verse 21 contains the words "great tribulation."  A common error is to assign the final 3.5 years of Daniel's 70th week to it.  Many times this is done on an unconscious level.  However as mentioned earlier, it should just be translated as a time of great difficulty.......the length of which is not specified.  


Being thus freed up it is therefore easy to understand how day can shorten those days.......or put an end to them after a certain period of time.   The time is NOT fixed at 3.5 years.   God will stop the persecution when He decides to.  


Moving down to verse 29......."Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened......."

Here again, we just translate this in a normative sense with the words the are presented before us.  As such, we are not forced to place this event at the very end of Daniel's 70th week.  

God will stop the persecution........and then the sun will be darkened for an unspecified period of time.  It could be months of round the clock darkness.  The parallel description is Revelation's 6th Seal.  The great ones of the earth will hide if fear in caves.  Why?   Because they know the GOD'S WRATH is about to begin.

They say:   "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the WRATH OF THE LAMB.  FOR THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH HAS COME, AND WHO IS ABLE TO STAND?"   (Rev 6: 12-17)


This is the Day of the Lord.  It is actually much longer than a human 24 hour day.  It begins with the 7th Seal and ends after the Millennial Kingdom is over.  There are many aspects to it.  It is also talked about in 2 Peter Chapter 3 in reference to when God will burn up the earth and usher in a new one.  So as far as I can tell......the Day of the Lord appears to be approx. 1000 human years in duration.  


Just prior to the 7th Seal......the 144,000 of Israel are sealed from harm.  Notice that this is not done prior to the First Seal........because the First Seal is not part of God's Wrath.  The 144,000 are sealed from harm just prior to the 7th Seal (God's Wrath).  The 144,000 will remain on earth.  They are later mentioned during the 5th Trumpet Judgment.  The 5th Trumpet Judgment by the way is by itself 5 months in duration.


From the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week, my approx. estimate is that Satan's wrath will run it's course for several years before God puts and end to it.  Then God's wrath as described in the 7th Seal will go on for about one and one-half years.  Then Christ will return with His heavenly army.  

After the 144,000 of Israel are sealed from harm........a great multitude in heaven is talked about.  They are from all the nations.   They can wear robes and have palm branches in their hands.  They,  according to the Pre-Wrath position,  are the Christians who God has caught up just prior to unleashing His Wrath.  These are the elect (chosen ones) who angels have caught up as described in Matthew 24: 31.


Sadly many Christians will be caught off guard when persecution comes from the man of evil, false prophet, and their followers.  But God has said that when the abomination is placed in the holy place, we are to leave everything behind and flee to the wilderness.  He would not say this only to have those who listened to him perish in the wilderness.  He will supernaturally protect those who are allowing Him to fight the battle for them.  See Rev. 12: 13----17.  

He will take care of them just as He did for Israel as they were fleeing into the desert out of Egypt.  He will protect them, feed them, etc.  See also Psalm 27: 1-5 and Psalm 31: 20 and Psalm 91.

Satan has tried to destroy Israel at many times in history.  In my opinion, he has been trying to interfere with God's promise made to Abraham for his act of faith/obedience.  But God has always preserved a remnant and will continue to do so.  He will defend His holy name and promises.   See Gen 22.  

After the time of Jacob's trouble is over......Daniel's 70th week.....Daniel Chp 12.......God will put His Spirit inside those who He has preserved of Israel.  See Ezek Chps 34 through 39.  These are the physical descendant's of Abraham.  

The Church are the Gentiles who have been grafted into the natural branch after Israel rejected their Messiah.  This is the great Mystery.  See Romans Chps 9 through 11.

In Revelations Chp 12........the dragon is Satan.  The Woman is Israel.  The Child is Christ.  The Offspring are the Gentile Chistians who have been grafted in........the spiritual descendants of Abraham.


"Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child.  But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.  So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like f flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood.  

"But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.  And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."


Psalm 27: 5     "For in the time of trouble He shall hide me in His pavilion;  in the secret place of His tabernacle He shall hide me;  He shall set me high upon a rock."


Psalm 31: 20    "You shall hide them in the secret place of Your presence from the plots of man;  you shall keep them secretly in a pavilion from the strife of tongues."



 

[nChrist]

Hello Brother David,

Thanks - very interesting - I appreciate the information. I copied it for additional study when I have more time. I can already see that I would disagree with many issues, but agreement on Bible Prophecy isn't necessary for Brothers and Sisters in Christ to have fellowship. In other words, I think we should look kindly on those with differences and know these are not Salvation issues. Just for information, there are numerous highly detailed threads on the forum about the Rapture and the Tribulation Period that you might find interesting.

I have debated this numerous times in the past, and I've decided not to do so again. My primary reason is that I feel the time is growing short for the lost to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. I feel led to put my efforts into Salvation issues and building up of the saints. The times are getting more difficult for God's children, and we should know that they are going to get much worse. May God give us all the strength, guidance, and determination to do His Will until He comes to take us Home.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[david749]

Thanks Tom and have a pleasant week.  May God be close to you always in the days ahead.    David

[david749]

Israel is back in its original homeland......a major fulfillment of prophecy which few thought possible for hundreds of years. 


The next clearcut signs to look for are:      3rd Seal:   a day's wages for a loaf of bread on a worldwide basis.


4th Seal:   25% of the world's population perishing. 


To my knowledge, the Pre-Trib position holds that Christians will be caught up prior to seeing these things.  So.....if you see food prices sky rocket in your lifetime......you should re-examine your position. 


The escalation in food prices will be primarily due to the elite bankers and their associates wanting to bring down the current system of nation states and usher in a one world government.  They especially hate the USA and all that it stands for.  They own the Federal Reserve and profit from debt, wars, etc.  They intentionally created such things as Credit Default Swaps, Mortgaged Backed Securities, Easy Credit in order to create severe bubbles......and then pop those bubbles.  The U.S. dollar will one day collapse because of our extreme debt.  This will cause world wide chaos, currency problems, and a severe escalation of all commodity prices.  It is already beginning to happen if you check out food and gold prices.   The motto of these evil ones:   order out of chaos.   They create chaos by intent.......and then usher in a new system......one that is to their liking.   These are the descendants of the original moneychangers.......who Christ chased out of the temple. 

[nChrist]

Where do you see Daniel 9-27 in your model of the Tribulation Period?

Daniel 9:27 KJV  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I see it at the beginning of the Tribulation Period - right after the Rapture of the Church. This is the false covenant that will be broken - oddly enough a 7 year covenant broken in the middle of it - mostly thought to be a peace treaty.

[david749]

Where do you see Daniel 9-27 in your model of the Tribulation Period?

Daniel 9:27 KJV  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I see it at the beginning of the Tribulation Period - right after the Rapture of the Church. This is the false covenant that will be broken - oddly enough a 7 year covenant broken in the middle of it - mostly thought to be a peace treaty.


Hi Tom         Yes....I feel that the man of evil will probably make a deal with Israel to quiet things in the Middle East temporarily.......probably a land for peace deal.......perhaps giving back part of Jerusalem to the Moslems......the two state solution.  This peace agreement might not necessarily be well publicized.  It may have happened in Sept 2010......I am keeping on eye on events.


Then I feel that something very bad will happen in the world to facilitate Israel returning to the old daily sacrifice of animals.  This would be the Burnt Offering as described in Lev. 6.  They would not necessarily have to rebuild a temple......but could quickly construct a tabernacle to use.

In the middle of Daniel's 70th week, the man of evil will break his covenant.  The abomination of desolation will be set-up......placed......and seen standing in the holy place.  The man of evil will then first go after the Jews.......and attempt to destroy all of them.  Satan has done this in past empires......as with Nazi Germany.  God will defend His Word and Promise to Abraham......and supernaturally protect a remnant in the wilderness. 


Satan/anti-christ/false prophet will then become enraged and go after the offspring......the Gentile Christians who have been grafted into the natural branch.  This terrible persecution will go on for awhile but God will then cut those days short......end them.   

Then you will have a time of darkness in the world..........and the Day of the Lord's wrath announced as described in the 6th Seal.  Then the sign of the Lord will flash across the sky.   The 144,000 of Israel will be sealed from harm and the Christians will be caught up by angels to heaven.  Then God's wrath as described in the 7th Seal will begin.  It will go on for quite awhile as the 5th trumpet judgment by itself is 5 months in duration.  Following God's wrath as described in the 7th Seal.......Christ will return with His heavenly army to destroy His enemies and set up His millennial kingdom. 

[nChrist]

Hello Brother David,

I view the Great Restrainer as the Holy Spirit of God - not Michael. I don't think that Michael has the power, and we have to remember that the Holy Spirit of God lives in the heart of each born-again believer. In our own way, we are each restrainers - not because of any power we have - but because of the power of the Holy Spirit living in us.

2 Thessalonians 2:5-8 KJV  5  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?  6  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.  7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.  8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

So, I believe that the Holy Spirit - including the Church - must be removed before the devil can begin his mass deception. Real Christians have the Spirit of All Truth living inside us, and we won't be so easy to deceive. This is yet another reason why I believe that the Rapture is before the Tribulation Period. Ask yourself this question:  can the Seal of the Holy Spirit on our hearts be broken by any combination of powers in the universe?
____________________

Just curious, where do you see the battles of Ezekiel 38 and 39? Keep in mind that there should be significant reasons why peace will be palatable when the Antichrist tries to sell his bogus peace treaty. I personally believe these wars could happen at any time. On the same note, where do you see Bible Prophecy on Damascus (Isaiah 17:1)? I personally believe these wars will be the reason for that false peace treaty.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[david749]

Dear Tom      I have not really studied the various battles that will occur and am not an expert on them.......other than the one in Rev. 19 and the one that is at the end of the millennial kingdom. 


I actually have an opinion.......just an opinion.......that the U.S. dollar will eventually collapse putting our country and the whole world into a state of chaos.  This would cause Israel to lose a powerful ally and probably feel very much alone in the world.  It could then usher in in movement to the far right in Israel.........and the start of the sacrificial system.......in a sense an act of Israel desperately seeking help from God during a period of world chaos.  There might also be some other events happening as well.......major terrorist events, small nukes going off, food shortages, etc.


As far as the Holy Spirit goes........He is God.... and thus everywhere........not just within the hearts of believers.   


There are many battles that go on between the angels that we cannot see.......but a review of Daniel shows the extent of it.......and how Gabriel had to battle His way to Daniel with the answer to his prayer.  He received help from Michael, one of the chief princes.......and prince over Israel.  He is the great prince which God has assigned to watch over and help defend Israel.   In Daniel 12, we are told that he will stand up (stand still)......and thus no longer provide protection.  This is then followed by a discussion of end time events.......including the abomination of desolation being set up.   

Bear in mind that the 70 weeks prophecy was given to Daniel for his people Israel.......in response to his intercession.  The 70th week therefore is their final week of reconciliation.  After that, Christ will return and put His Spirit within them.  God at that time will no longer hide His face from them. 

Revelations on the other hand was given by Christ specifically to the Church........to show the Church end times events. 


Daniel Chps 9----12

[nChrist]

Bear in mind that the 70 weeks prophecy was given to Daniel for his people Israel.......in response to his intercession.  The 70th week therefore is their final week of reconciliation.  After that, Christ will return and put His Spirit within them.  God at that time will no longer hide His face from them.

Revelations on the other hand was given by Christ specifically to the Church........to show the Church end times events.


Daniel Chps 9----12

You brought up a subject most worthy of consideration. The 70 weeks Prophecy was determined against Israel - not the Church. Daniel didn't have a clue about the Church since it was still a mystery.

[Soldier4Christ]

Dan 12:1  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

The word that was translated to 'stand up' is the same word that was also translated to standeth in this verse. This is saying that at the 'time of trouble' that Michael will be there during that time 'for the children of thy people', not removed.

[david749]

From this particular source, two different Hebrew words were used.

iomd:    he-shall-stand-up

e.omd:   the-one-standing


http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm


In an case, Michael the archangel......the one who God has assigned as prince over Israel (Daniel 10:13 and Daniel 10:21).......the one who stands watch over Israel (Daniel 12:1).......will take a certain action (stand up) which will be closely followed by the worst time of trouble that Israel and all the nations have ever seen.......including the daily sacrifice being stopped and the abomination of desolation being set up in the holy place (Daniel 12: 11)

It is at this time the Jesus our Lord instructs people to leave everything behind and flee to the mountains (Mt 24).


God will supernaturally preserve a remnant in the wilderness.  (Rev 12) 

[david749]

To my knowledge......"The Tribulation Period" is not found in Scripture.  If anyone can find it......where it is clearly defined as the same thing as Daniel's 70th week......please let me know.

As such, the Pre-Wrath position (and myself as well) view it as a human invention and an addition to Scripture.  You have to therefore be very careful about the use of it. 

For example, the Pre-Trib position believes that the "Tribulation period" is God's wrath and that Chrisitians will be raptured prior to God's wrath.  However, there is no seven year "Tribulation Period" found in Scripture.......all you have is Daniel's 70th week. 

Daniel's 70th week as mentioned above......as well as the 70 weeks prophecy as a whole.......was given to Daniel as an answer to his prayers for his people Israel.  There is no indication anywhere that God's wrath upon the world begins at the beginning of Daniel's 70th week.  You have at the beginning of it a peace covenant between the man of evil and Israel.....which may or may not be publicized to the general public.  Then sometime after that the daily sacrificial system in Israel resumes.........then at the mid-point of Daniel's 70th week the evil one stops the daily sacrifice and sets up the abomination of desolation at the holy place.  Then all hell breaks out upon the world.  It is at the mid-point of Daniel's 70th week that Jesus instructs people to flee to the mountains. 

So there really is no indication that God's wrath has begun during the first half of Daniel's 70th week.  In my opinion, God's wrath will be clearly evident to all.......and everyone will know that it is coming from Him. 

The Seven Seals of Christ were given by Christ for the Church.   While Christ opens all 7 of the seals, this does not necessarily mean that all seven seals are God's wrath.  The 5th Seal for example involves the cry of the martyrs. 

It is also incorrect to assume that the 7 Seals are exactly the same thing as Daniel's 70th week.  There is nothing in Scripture defining the 7 Seals as being seven years in duration.....and the final seven years.   The first two Seals are somewhat vague........and could have been broken hundreds of years ago.  The 3rd Seal and 4th Seals are specific......and we have not yet seen them. 

If the First Seal was God's wrath........then why weren't the 144,000 of Israel sealed from harm prior to the First Seal?

Instead.......they are sealed from harm just prior to the 7th Seal. 


The 6th Seal announces that the Day of the Lord and His wrath is about to begin.  The whole world goes black for an unspecified amount of time.  The great ones of the earth hide in fear in caves.  They know what is coming.  They say: 

"Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!  For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"


The 144,000 of Israel are then sealed from harm.  They will remain on earth.  After this a great multitude from all the nations is talked about in heaven.  They can wear robes and have palm branches in their hands.


Then you have God's wrath......the 7th Seal.  The 5th trumpet judgment by itself is 5 months in duration.


So........you have the mid-point of Daniel's 70th week........then Satan's wrath as expressed through the man of evil, false prophet, and man.  After a time God will end this......otherwise no flesh would be saved.  Then you have God's wrath as described in the 7th Seal. 


God has not appointed us to wrath......namely His wrath.   


This is the Pre-Wrath position........which in my opinion is correct. 


God can supernaturally take care of you even in the worst of situations.  He is there to fight your battles for you........just as He did for Israel when they were leaving Egypt.  Let us have the faith of a mustard seed.....the smallest of all seeds.   

[david749]

I am no expert at languages but just did this out of curiosity.  I went to Google and typed in "English to Hebrew."  I then put the English phrase "stand still" in.......and got a Hebrew word back (in 4 symbols which I am not sure how to put on here).  I then typed the English phrase "stand up" into the translater....and got back the exact same Hebrew word. 

Next I went to Google and typed in "Hebrew word for stand still".   The verb 'amal came up which had multiple meanings.......including both "stand up" and "stand still."


http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=05975


So it appears that Daniel 12:1 can be translated either way and you just have to read the whole chapter to get the implied meaning.


"At that time Michael shall stand up (or stand still), the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people, and there shall be a time of trouble.........."