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Author Topic: The Church's job?  (Read 9712 times)
MalkyEL
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« Reply #45 on: February 03, 2004, 11:04:43 PM »

BlackEyedPeas [Tom] asks:
"Is there an accountability factor of any type or form?"

Interesting question, Tom!

I am assuming you are asking within the framework of acceptance of the gospel message.  Yes, there is an accountability factor - it is dependent on the ability of the mind and heart to accept the concept of need for a Savior.  I have heard of children as young as 4 and 5 giving their hearts to Jesus and remembering that decision all through their lives.

The Bible does have some things to say about raising a child to know their Creator.   When it comes to those who have not heard the gospel - such as you refer to on the mission fields, I would consider that to be as a young child in the faith and therefore, would need training and teaching to understand the salvation process.

Personally, I believe that as a parent, there is a covenant in effect.  As believers, your children would be considered "saved" until they reach an age of decision - that would differ of course on the "spiritual awareness" of each child.

Here are some scripts:

Deut 6:4 ∂ Hear, O, Israel. The LORD our God is one LORD.
5 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.
6 And these words which I command you this day shall be in your heart.
7 And you shall carefully teach them to your sons, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise up.

Prov 22:6 ∂ Train up a child in the way he should go; and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all those afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Been looking for a verse that says you are responsible only for what you know, but - can't find it - anyone know where it is - I thought it was in the gospels?
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2nd Timothy
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« Reply #46 on: February 04, 2004, 05:48:13 AM »

I believe the verse you are refering to is...

2Pe 2:21  For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.


JudgeNot, I was thinking about your earlier post and had a few thoughts.

Quote
I cannot find it in my heart to condemn those who have not heard, or who have been prohibited from hearing, Godís final Word.  Maybe Jesus sees it differently, but not from what I have been taught and not from what I feel in my heart.

A passage that came to mind was....

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Rom 1:19  because the thing which may be known of God is clearly revealed within them, for God revealed it to them.
Rom 1:20  For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being realized by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse.


Verse 18 states unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth.  But 19 and 20 imply that none will be without excuse when judgment comes because creation itself declares his glory.  

My own personal thoughts about this are, everyone at some point in their lives comes to the question of whether or not there is a God.  Perhaps just by gazing up at the night sky.  Or prehaps just the void vacuum in ones heart.   If a person in some far away place, having never heard the gospel of Christ begins a quest for truth in his heart, God will move heaven and earth to bring that individual his gospel of truth by some means.  

I heard a story about a tribe (dont recall if it was in S America or Africa), but a missionary went to their villiage and taught the Gospel.  The chief told him afterwards, that they knew this God was real, and wanted to worship him, they just didn't know his name was Jesus.  God knows the hearts of men, and if any man seeks truth, God will bring it to them.

Rev 3:20  Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him and he with Me.

Grace and Peace!
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Tim

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« Reply #47 on: February 04, 2004, 09:57:52 AM »

Brother Tim,
Quote
I heard a story about a tribe (dont recall if it was in S America or Africa), but a missionary went to their villiage and taught the Gospel.  The chief told him afterwards, that they knew this God was real, and wanted to worship him, they just didn't know his name was Jesus.  God knows the hearts of men, and if any man seeks truth, God will bring it to them.

I have heard the same story!  We watched a video in church about a missionary who took the gospel to the jungle tribes of Borneo.  The missionary told the same story!  The people were SO HAPPY to have a real name and a real story behind what they had believed all along.  Their worship and praise to Jesus was so real, and so spontaneous - we were all in tears as we watched the video.

The praise and glory to Him!

Bless you for reminding me of that story,
JN
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MalkyEL
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« Reply #48 on: February 04, 2004, 01:09:37 PM »

2nd Timothy wrote:
I believe the verse you are refering to is...

2Pe 2:21  For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
******************
Thanx  Cool!  This was one of them,  but my mind says there is yet another one referring to ignorance - not Rom 1,  either - h m m m - have to keep searching   Huh.

Been  thinking about the story of the African tribe that you and Judge Not were talking about.  I totally agree that God will move heaven and earth to reach those who are seeking for Him.  It has certainly been true personally, and Jeremiah 31 says that those who diligently seek Him will find Him.

Jesus also prayed:  John 17:1 ∂ Jesus spoke these words and lifted up His eyes to Heaven and said, Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son so that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 even as You have given Him authority over all flesh so that He should give eternal life to all You have given Him.9 I pray for them. I do not pray for the world, but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I am glorified in them.
20 ∂ And I do not pray for these alone, but for those also who shall believe on Me through their word,
21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be one in Us, so that the world may believe that You have sent Me.

Jesus taught:
John 6:33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from Heaven and gives life to the world.
34 Then they said to him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 And Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes on Me shall never thirst.
36 But I said to you that you also have seen Me and do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will in no way cast out.
38 For I came down from Heaven, not to do My own will but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 And this is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all which He has given Me I should lose nothing but should raise it up again at the last day.40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him should have everlasting life. And I will raise him up at the last day.
53 Then Jesus says to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, you do not have life in yourselves.
54 Whoever partakes of My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
65 And He said, Because of this I said to you that no one can come to Me unless it was given to him from My Father.



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« Reply #49 on: February 06, 2004, 02:25:59 AM »

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

Good thoughts and great discussion. Thanks for the beautiful portions of Scripture.

I'm almost sure that I've seen the same video about the tribe who were thankful to finally know the name of The God they wanted to worship. This is an excellent addition to the accountability question.

As a small child, I remember overhearing discussions between my dad and my uncle, both preachers, when one of the kids did something wrong. They discussed an age or maturity of accountability. I didn't understand what they were talking about then, but I remember portions of those conversations now that the question has come up and I feel a burden on my heart to find out.

I've heard all kinds of opinions on infants and what will happen if they die. Some Christians qualify their answers with whether or not the parents were Christians. Some say the infant goes to hell, regardless of faith from their parents. Some say that aborted babies go to hell. Some say the infant belongs to Jesus, and that would be my opinion, specifically after the crucifixion of Jesus on the cross. However, I can't find the Biblical teaching to support or deny my opinion.

A developing thought involves the Law and Grace. I'm still searching. I hope that I say this in a way that makes sense. Can an infant be condemned under the law? The law leads to a knowledge of sin. (Bear with me here) If there is no law or understanding of the law for this infant, could there be a spiritual death sentence involved if they physically die? We know that we can't make this infant understand the Gospel of the Grace of God, but is this infant the recipient of God's love and grace? I know that I didn't say this very well. Let me study some more with the additional thoughts and Scriptures you have provided and try again.

Love In Christ,
Tom  
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« Reply #50 on: February 06, 2004, 08:54:12 AM »

Eph 1:3-5

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


Luke 18:16-17

16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.


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« Reply #51 on: February 06, 2004, 10:25:00 AM »

Tim my brother, once again I've seen a chord struck of biblical unity.  Your post concerning the Romans 1 passage was exactly what I was thinking about as I read through some of these posts!  God is good isn't He?  What's more, He is just.  

Thanks for sharing that with us my friend!   Smiley
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« Reply #52 on: February 06, 2004, 10:37:41 AM »

Quote
As a small child, I remember overhearing discussions between my dad and my uncle, both preachers, when one of the kids did something wrong. They discussed an age or maturity of accountability. I didn't understand what they were talking about then, but I remember portions of those conversations now that the question has come up and I feel a burden on my heart to find out.

That is an interesting question Tom, and one worthy of study.  May have to join you there!  I've always considered the accountability concept to be a necessity.  That is, if one does not know one is a sinner, and does not know that Jesus paid the price for there sin, is not the issue here.  That is covered in Romans 1.  The issue is whether or not the one who does not know, can know, or are capable of understanding.  That's key I believe, but will be the first to say that it is also reason and logic at the heart of it all.  Let me know what ya find on this would you?

Quote
Eph 1:3-5

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


Luke 18:16-17

16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

The only possible contradiction I may have with these passages Sister, is that the references are referring to believers who have conscieously accepted Christ's call to salvation, not to children.  We are then the children spoken of, and Jesus equates the children coming to Him to be the mindset we, as believers, will also reflect.  I will, however, say that I can see how that may fit, namely from the perspective of being chosen before the foundations of the world.  Needless to say, and though it may not seem so, I was blessed by your post!  Thanks!   Smiley
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Fewarechosen7F
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« Reply #53 on: February 15, 2004, 03:10:30 AM »

Quote
As a small child, I remember overhearing discussions between my dad and my uncle, both preachers, when one of the kids did something wrong. They discussed an age or maturity of accountability. I didn't understand what they were talking about then, but I remember portions of those conversations now that the question has come up and I feel a burden on my heart to find out.

That is an interesting question Tom, and one worthy of study.  May have to join you there!  I've always considered the accountability concept to be a necessity.  That is, if one does not know one is a sinner, and does not know that Jesus paid the price for there sin, is not the issue here.  That is covered in Romans 1.  The issue is whether or not the one who does not know, can know, or are capable of understanding.  That's key I believe, but will be the first to say that it is also reason and logic at the heart of it all.  Let me know what ya find on this would you?


One of the prophesies about Yeshua stated that he would eat butter and honey until he learned to choose the good and not the evil. And when he was 12 years old, his mother and Joseph were astonished that he had learned so much.

He was without sin, and yet he had to learn not to choose the evil. Therefore, I believe that the child is not born - in - sin, but - into - sin. In other words, children are taught to sin, by the people in their lives who sin
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« Reply #54 on: February 15, 2004, 05:09:58 AM »

Oklahoma Howdy to FewareChosen7f,

Thanks for the information and the idea. I had hoped to have a firm answer by now, but I got slowed down a little bit in several other Bible Studies. I'm looking at several portions of Scripture now and may have something to share with everyone soon.

Love In Christ,
Tom
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