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Author Topic: The Church's job?  (Read 9647 times)
JudgeNot
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« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2004, 07:38:42 PM »

Good story Reba.
(And you know EXACTLY what "we should read into it".)

(Thanks.)
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« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2004, 08:21:51 PM »

ok - let me be blunt Roll Eyes

The church will NEVER, as a collective body, take care of all the needs people have.  First of all, it takes 100's of 1000's of dollars to create and implement these kinds of programs.  Secondly, the church [at large, collectively] does not care.  

In general terms - the church is selfish and trained to gather tithes to pad their own programs and buildings.  It does not have a mission mind set.  I am speaking of the church as a whole - there will always be individual churches who are mission minded.

The church is not going to change.  Yes, there are exceptions.
Our individual responsibility is not to find a cure for every facet of a broken society.  It is God's.  He is the One Who directs and motivates and graces with ability.  If you truly want to help and do as His Word dictates, you need to just obey Him.  Period.  Everyone of us has a purpose in life - His will.  He will let you know how, when, and where He needs to place you to help those in need.  He gives you a heart for certain segments of the hurting and needy.  If we are a child of God, we are lead by His Spirit.
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« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2004, 09:15:07 PM »

Exactly right. The Churches may never change. We must.

You said...
"Our individual responsibility is not to find a cure for every facet of a broken society.  It is God's.  He is the One Who directs and motivates and graces with ability.  If you truly want to help and do as His Word dictates, you need to just obey Him.  Period.  Everyone of us has a purpose in life - His will.  He will let you know how, when, and where He needs to place you to help those in need.  He gives you a heart for certain segments of the hurting and needy.  If we are a child of God, we are lead by His Spirit. "

I am not trying to solve the world's problems in one feld swoop. Just my neighborhood. Just my children. Just my life.
I will do what God asks. It IS God's responsibility....to delegate in many instances. I can't help but think of how many opportunities I missed to help simply because I was so caught up in hurrying home from the grocery store to feed the dog, pick up the kids from school, get my boys to football.....and didn't see the Mother who only had $10 to feed her kids and she went over $1 and had to put back something.

We get wrapped up in everday life, and we aren't open to the possibility.  I just don't think we should hide behind some immovable churches to keep from taking some of the burden ourselves because it doesn't fit into our present lifestyle.( I meant no offense at that....really trully.)

Everyone should feel better about themselves when they leave your presence. That is, IMO, everyone's basic purpose. Everyone fills His plan, no matter what you believe or where you are.

As Christians, we stand together on several issues....yet we have lost many battles due to the lack of getting involved.
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« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2004, 09:27:46 PM »

Quote
In general terms - the church is selfish and trained to gather tithes to pad their own programs

You could never be more mistaken my friend.  Not the real church, Malky, not the REAL church.  You are mixing (or confusing) "Christians by mouth" and "Christians by faith".  Biiiiig difference, partner.
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« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2004, 09:31:35 PM »

Oklahoma Howdy to Sister Reba,

You made an excellent point. I think it is wrong most of the time to give money directly directly to those who claim to be in need. I think the correct approach is to supply food, shelter, and clothing directly and not waste any of the Lord's provisions for the purchase of alcohol and dope.

Further, I think some of the most successful church sponsored programs put everyone to work doing something productive like cleaning, stocking food shelves, maintenance on the facility, yard work, etc., etc.

I'm thinking about a wonderful and big hearted Christian lady about 80 years old who runs two of our homeless shelters here with an iron fist. You work if you sleep in their beds or eat their food. The rules of the homes about alcohol and dope are "out you go immediately with no second chance". She does make slight changes to the work requirements for those with valid medical problems, but they still have to work doing something that may be less physical. They do their own laundry, do all of the cooking, and everything else that requires labor. I like this approach because I think it gives some dignity and work ethic to those staying in the shelters.

I'm hoping to have some specific portions of Scripture about charity and love posted in a few hours.

This is a great discussion, and certainly one worthy of seeing what the Holy Bible instructs us to do. Symphony, you made some excellent points about government programs giving some Christians the idea that they are off the hook and don't have to help. I think that the Bible teaches the opposite and never lets the Christians off the hook. We should be on the hook willingly and do whatever we can in joy. I think there are dozens of things that need to be done, and even the Christians with the least money can volunteer time, sewing, and a long list of critical tasks that don't involve money.

Everyone is making excellent points and this is obviously going to be a fascinating discussion and study.

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2004, 01:46:22 AM »

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

Charity - Part One

I'm sorry for the delay. Below is one of the posts I wanted to make on the subject of Charity. You will find it interesting that Charity is the substance of Christian love. Don't confuse our modern day definitions with Biblical definitions.

Here's an idea for others who may wish to join in. Would someone maybe wish to post some Scripture and thoughts about "Brotherly Love"? Would someone else maybe wish to post some Scripture and thoughts about "Agape Love"?
______________________________________


Charity, what is it? It is Christian Love, the preferred of all gifts. It is the gift of affection and love given and nurtured by God's matchless grace. Throughout the Holy Bible, Christian Love is indeed the greatest and most precious gifts a child of God can exercise. Many portions of the Holy Bible speak of charity as being one of the principal Graces, just as God's love and grace are the most precious to His children.

Even martyrdom falls far short of charity in the eyes of God. Charity is, in fact, our yielding to God and allowing HIM to work in us and through us, reaching out to others in Christian love. It is important to note that providing food, clothing, and shelter to the poor is nothing unless it is done in Christian love. These are tasks that can not be done grudgingly or because we know that God has commanded us to do them. Giving everything we have to the poor would be nothing unless it was done in Christian love. Yes, it would help the poor, but God does not recognize or accept this work unless it is done in Christian love.

This is an interesting and very Biblical truth. A rich man might give half of everything he owns because of guilt or some other selfish reason. A poor man with almost nothing might give a portion of food in Christian love. The work of the rich man is burned up, but God loves the work of the poor man because of the attitude in which the work was done. Our works and deeds for the poor are not to be bragged about, so as to receive praise or recognition from men. In the example given above, this may be the purpose for the rich man's gifts to the poor.

The Apostle Paul makes it clear that Christian love is the most eminent gift that can be endowed through the Holy Spirit, and all of God's children can obtain this gift.

Strongs Numbers:  G26
a??a´p?
agapeŻ
ag-ah'-pay
From G25; love, that is, affection or benevolence; specifically (plural) a love feast: - (feast of) charity ([-ably]), dear, love.
Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries

Leviticus 25:35  And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee.

Deuteronomy 15:7  If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:

Psalms 41:1   Blessed is he that considereth the poor: the LORD will deliver him in time of trouble.

Psalms 112:9  He hath dispersed, he hath given to the poor; his righteousness endureth for ever; his horn shall be exalted with honour.

Proverbs 14:31  He that oppresseth the poor reproacheth his Maker: but he that honoureth him hath mercy on the poor.

Jeremiah 5:28  They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deeds of the wicked: they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they prosper; and the right of the needy do they not judge.

Ezekiel 22:29  The people of the land have used oppression, and exercised robbery, and have vexed the poor and needy: yea, they have oppressed the stranger wrongfully.

Matthew 6:2  Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

1 John 3:17  But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

Luke 3:11  He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.

Luke 14:13  But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind:

Acts 20:35  I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

Galatians 2:10  Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

1 Corinthians 16:1  Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
1 Corinthians 16:2  Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
1 Corinthians 16:3  And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.
1 Corinthians 16:4  And if it be meet that I go also, they shall go with me.

Deuteronomy 15:11  For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.

Proverbs 11:4  Riches profit not in the day of wrath: but righteousness delivereth from death.

Matthew 6:19  Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
Matthew 6:20  But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Matthew 6:21  For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Matthew 6:22  The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Matthew 6:23  But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
Matthew 6:24  No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

2 Corinthians 9:7  Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
2 Corinthians 9:8  And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
2 Corinthians 9:9  (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.

See Part Two
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« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2004, 01:49:58 AM »

Charity - Part Two

1 Corinthians 13:1  Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1 Corinthians 13:2  And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1 Corinthians 13:3  And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1 Corinthians 13:4  Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1 Corinthians 13:5  Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1 Corinthians 13:6  Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1 Corinthians 13:7  Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1 Corinthians 13:8  Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1 Corinthians 13:9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1 Corinthians 13:10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1 Corinthians 13:11  When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1 Corinthians 13:12  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1 Corinthians 13:13  And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

(See Deuteronomy 24:19-21) The harvests of the fields, olive trees, and grapes of the vineyard will not be completely gleaned and taken in. That which is left is for the stranger, the fatherless, and for the widow.

Deuteronomy 26:13  Then thou shalt say before the LORD thy God, I have brought away the hallowed things out of mine house, and also have given them unto the Levite, and unto the stranger, to the fatherless, and to the widow, according to all thy commandments which thou hast commanded me: I have not transgressed thy commandments, neither have I forgotten them:

Isaiah 58:7  Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

Lamentations 2:19  Arise, cry out in the night: in the beginning of the watches pour out thine heart like water before the face of the Lord: lift up thy hands toward him for the life of thy young children, that faint for hunger in the top of every street.

Lamentations 4:4  The tongue of the sucking child cleaveth to the roof of his mouth for thirst: the young children ask bread, and no man breaketh it unto them.

Lamentations 4:9  They that be slain with the sword are better than they that be slain with hunger: for these pine away, stricken through for want of the fruits of the field.

1 Corinthians 16:14  Let all your things be done with charity.

Colossians 3:14  And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

2 Thessalonians 1:3  We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that
your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;

1 Timothy 1:5  Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

1 Timothy 4:12  Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

2 Timothy 2:22  Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

1 Peter 4:8  And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

2 Peter 1:7  And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

Jude 1:12  These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

If you put these portions of Scripture in context, they make an excellent study on the subject of Charity which is also Christian Love.

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2004, 07:15:26 AM »

I never said that these people were excused from living their own lives. Yes, they are responsible for themselves....but the time, energy and the like that will need to be engaged to make that a reality is strenuous to say the least. However, it has to be done. That means we ALL have to get involved by whatever means we can.
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« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2004, 07:44:36 PM »

Tom,

Nice set of Scripts.  The doctrine of Jesus was love. Love one another as I have loved you.  Anything done out of our selves is not His love in us.  It must be God's love, for He is Love.  Without that love, what we do is worth nothing.

When our works are burned up, what remains is motive and intent - unless it was God's love in us that moved us to compassion, the works are useless and burned to a crisp.

It really is not about what the church can do any more.  The church is falling apart.  It is full of deception and false leaders.  When the church is gone - as an institution - I am not talking about the body of believeres - what is left are individuals providing for the needy [emotional, spiritual, mental] which will have to be done as led by God's Spirit, which is love.  If that is not our driving force, we will fail.  If we are counting on the church to provide, our faith is in a system, not in the power of God's love in each one of us.

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« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2004, 08:02:02 PM »



 Jesus said He would build His church i believe Him. He does not fail.
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« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2004, 09:29:56 PM »

It really is not about what the church can do any more.  The church is falling apart.  It is full of deception and false leaders.  When the church is gone - as an institution - I am not talking about the body of believers - what is left are individuals providing for the needy [emotional, spiritual, mental] which will have to be done as led by God's Spirit, which is love.  If that is not our driving force, we will fail.  If we are counting on the church to provide, our faith is in a system, not in the power of God's love in each one of us.

Oklahoma Howdy to MalkyEL,

I think you are right about many of our brick and mortar churches being in big trouble and maybe falling apart. I may be somewhat naive, but I still think there are quite a few brick and mortar churches where God's love is felt when you walk in the door.

I know that I'm naive about many denominations and what may be going on or not going on in their brick and mortar buildings. However, I'm positive that the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST is alive and well.

I think that the individual members of the brick and mortar churches can and should join together and collectively say what will and what will not be done in that brick and mortar building. I honestly believe this is the difference between God's will being done in that building or not.

Love In Christ,
Tom
 
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« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2004, 09:37:27 PM »



 Jesus said He would build His church i believe Him. He does not fail.

Oklahoma Howdy to Sister Reba,

You are 100% correct. The CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST is a beautiful and growing body because CHRIST himself is the head of this church. The same is quite accurate to say about a marriage with CHRIST as the head or an individual's life with CHRIST as the head.

You are 1000% correct that GOD never fails. Humans fail all the time, and some try to blame it on GOD, but we should look for the cause of failure in us, NEVER IN GOD.

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2004, 10:56:42 PM »

Tom wrote:

I think you are right about many of our brick and mortar churches being in big trouble and maybe falling apart. I may be somewhat naive, but I still think there are quite a few brick and mortar churches where God's love is felt when you walk in the door.

I know that I'm naive about many denominations and what may be going on or not going on in their brick and mortar buildings. However, I'm positive that the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST is alive and well.

I think that the individual members of the brick and mortar churches can and should join together and collectively say what will and what will not be done in that brick and mortar building. I honestly believe this is the difference between God's will being done in that building or not.
========================================

I think we are all misinformed and naive.  I did not say that God's love is expressed in some churches - I know that it is, and have seen it.  However; the effectiveness of the church on today's world is losing ground, not gaining.  I know many do not agree with me.

It's interesting that a number of denominations are praying for and believing that there will be a great revival in the end days.  It would be so wonderful if that were true.  But Jesus preached just the opposite.  So did the apostles in the letters to the churches.  The situation in the world is going to get worse not better.  The church, by default has accepted the world's system of doing things.  This precludes her failure in the end, not success.  The world, including this country is headed for a one world religion.  It is too late to stop it.  satan has been laying out the groundwork for centuries.  It is fact, not fallacy.  Look around at what many of our christian leaders are saying and doing.

Billy Graham, probably the greatest evangelist of all time, has also fallen to the one world religion fallacy.  He has said that he believes there are other ways for salvation.  That buddists can go to heaven among others.  Jesus said this would happen - that many would fall away and even the elect would be deceived if not for the grace of God.

Jesus said the road to destruction was wide and the gate to His Kingdom narrow and few would find it.  The church as a whole unit, is defective and malignant.  Yes, the body of Messiah is intact - God chooses and selects from within all denominational boundries - He does not show favoritism.  And yes, many churches are mission minded - but they are the minority.  The time is coming when the church system will no longer function as the body of Messiah.  As the Head of His body, Jesus will have His few that are obedient.
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« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2004, 01:20:51 AM »

Quote
Billy Graham, probably the greatest evangelist of all time, has also fallen to the one world religion fallacy.  He has said that he believes there are other ways for salvation.  That buddists can go to heaven among others.


I'm sorry - I don't believe you.  Please, show the exact quote where Dr. Graham said this.  I would like proof that you are not taking something out of context.  Or is this, perhaps, your personal "interpretation" of Dr. Graham's teachings?
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« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2004, 04:36:31 PM »

 DONT BE DECEIVED OTHER RELION GROUP TOO WILL GO TO HEAVEN TOO
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