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Author Topic: The Church's job?  (Read 9674 times)
MalkyEL
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« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2004, 04:45:04 PM »

PART 1 - Billy Graham

excerpt from http://www.seekgod.ca/deceptions.htm --- Please go to this link and read the entire article.

Billy Graham

Researching and weighing to Scripture also means that we must seek the truth, no matter what the opposition, or whether people will hear and understand the facts. The following is part of a correspondence regarding well-known evangelist Billy Graham in which some statements I made were being questioned.

"This really surprises me to hear such things of Billy Graham. I have a hard time believing that he doesn't think that Jesus is the only way. I am almost positive I have heard him quote the verse "I am the way, truth, life, no one comes to the father but through me".

Billy Graham has said those verses, probably hundreds or thousands of times. Due to reading a review of Graham's autobiography by a former pastor who became a reporter, I started to look into Billy Graham and what he really believes. One fact that I noticed quickly and which disturbed me was that one complete chapter of the autobiography is devoted to his viewpoint of Bill and Hillary Clinton being godly people and god-fearing. Recent current events show where the Clinton's truly stand in their views on morality and godly living.

Other information came to my attention in the form of an interview that Billy Graham had done. I had seen other documentation regarding the same interview and have done a lot of background research about things he has said and upheld over the years. One thing that I felt initially, before the background research, was that if he is saying things contrary to scripture because he isn't well, or because of his age, then his family should protect him. They should stop the interviews so that his ministry and credibility are not destroyed. In saying that, though, I have done enough research to know that all is not, and has not been, what it seems.

Titus 2:7-8 "In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you."
When researching the following interview that took place on television with Robert Schuller, I phoned directly to the Billy Graham Evangelical Association. The purpose was to verify the information and also obtain a copy of the interview directly from them.

The individual I spoke with was new to the department. However, upon my inquiry he went and got a copy of the requested interview and verified that Dr. Graham had indeed said what is quoted below. I then asked for a copy of the interview and at first he sounded quite willing to accommodate that request. However, he then left the telephone for a fairly lengthy time. When he came back, his tone had changed and he said his supervisor said they no longer gave out copies of the interview. He said it was because Billy Graham didn't really mean it like it sounds. However, further research has revealed that Billy Graham has said the same thing, in various ways, in many interviews over many years.

I then contacted the Robert Schuller organization and asked for verification and tried to obtain the transcript. I had already received a copy from another source, but wanted verification that it was correct. It was.

Television Interview of Billy Graham by Robert Schuller, Hour Of Power, Part 1, an approximately 7 minute long Broadcast in Southern California on Saturday, May 31, 1997. The following is an exact transcript of an excerpt close to the end of the Broadcast.

SCHULLER: Tell me, what do you think is the future of Christianity?

GRAHAM: Well, Christianity and being a true believer--you know, I think there's the Body of Christ. This comes from all the Christian groups around the world, outside the Christian groups. I think everybody that loves Christ, or knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the Body of Christ. And I don't think that we're going to see a great sweeping revival that will turn the whole world to Christ at any time. I think James answered that, the Apostle James in the first council in Jerusalem, when he said God's purpose for this age is to call out a people for His name. And that's what God is doing today, He's calling people out of the world for His name, whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ because they've been called by GOD. They may not even know the name of Jesus but they know in their hearts they need something that they don't have, and they turn to the only light that they have, and I think they are saved, and that they're going to be with us in heaven.

SCHULLER: What, what I hear you saying that it's possible for Jesus Christ to come into human hearts and souls and life, even if they've been born in darkness and have never had exposure to the Bible. Is that a correct interpretation of what you're saying?

GRAHAM: Yes, it is, because I believe that I've met people in various parts of the world in tribal situations, that they have never seen a Bible or heard about a Bible, and never heard of Jesus, but they've believed in their hearts that there was a God, and they've tried to live a life that was quite apart from the surrounding community in which they lived.

SCHULLER: I, I'm so thrilled to hear you say this. There's a wideness in God's mercy.

GRAHAM: There is. There definitely is.

***************

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MalkyEL
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« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2004, 04:49:59 PM »

Part 2 - Billy Graham

John 5:23 "That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent Him."
 
John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
 
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
 
2 John 9-10 "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed."
The Television interview of Dr. Billy Graham by Dr. Schuller continued: Part II, which was broadcast on Sunday, June 8, 1997. The following is an accurate transcript of a segment.

SCHULLER: You knew ...Fulton Sheen. You knew these men. Your comments on both of these men [Fulton Sheen and Norman V. Peale].

GRAHAM: The primary way of communication is to live life, let people see that you're living what you proclaim....[comments on his friendship and conversations with Fulton Sheen] I lost a very dear friend, and since that time, the whole relationship between me and my work, and you and your work, and the Roman Catholic Church has changed. They open their arms to welcome us and we have the support of the Catholic Church almost everywhere we go. And I think that we must come to the place where we keep our eyes on Jesus Christ, not on what denomination or what church or what group we belong to."

To obtain the entire interview contact: Garden Grove Community Church, PO Box 100, Garden Grove, CA 92642 telephone 714--971-4000

In the above quote by Dr. Graham, he stated, "...He's calling people out of the world for His name, whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world or the non-believing world. They are members of the Body of Christ because they have been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus but they know in their hearts that they need something that they don't have, and they turn to the only light that they have, and I think that they are SAVED, AND THAT THEY ARE GOING TO BE WITH US IN HEAVEN."

This statement directly agrees with the Roman Catholic Universal Catechism, page 224; par. 847: " Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience, those too may achieve eternal salvation. "

We know that God's Word never fails to provide the insight and guidance in all issues in our life. It is inerrant. It is truth. In saying that, we must then ask if what Dr. Graham stated above is in line with the Word of God?

Acts 4:12 " Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved. "
 
John 14:6 " Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
 
2 Thessalonians 2:11-15 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto He called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
Someone also sent the following message and information to me.

"I too have seen Billy Graham's version of "universalism" - that people may have Jesus in their heart without being conscious of it... (From a transcript of an interview with David Frost, May 1997). "It took place the day before the interview with Robert Schuller - Here's one part I found to be particularly disturbing:"

FROST: "A quote: "If ever there was a woman called of God to proclaim the strip - Scriptures, my daughter Ann is one. She's one of the great Bible teachers among women today. I have a great appreciation for her and other women who have a gift of God." Does that mean that you are in favor of the ordination of women? "

REV. GRAHAM: "It's -- it would be according to the circle I was in because I'm -- I feel that I belong to all the churches. I'm equally at home in an Anglican or a Baptist church or a Brethren assembly or a Roman Catholic Church. And I would have to say that I would identify with the customs and the culture and the theology of that particular church."

2 Thessalonians 3:6 "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."

It has been documented that Billy Graham is also a 33° Mason. Although a statement has been issued to the contrary by the Billy Graham Evangelical Association, there were at least two Lodges that had posted him as one of their famous freemasons. The Endtime Deception web site has lengthy documentation on Billy Graham. Jim Shaw's expose of Freemasonry, The Deadly Deception, stated that "an internationally prominent evangelist" was present at his 33° initiation and others have stated that person was Billy Graham.

Please note that a 33rd degree is a high posiiton in the Masonic Lodge.  The Masonic Lodge is not a Christian organization - it is occultic to say the least.  If you are in doubt as to the veracity of this, I can post more information on it.

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« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2004, 04:55:22 PM »

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26 "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27 He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"
30 In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'
36 "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"
37 The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."


27 He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
36 "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"
37 The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."
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MalkyEL
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« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2004, 05:00:09 PM »


Sincere Heart quoted:

27 He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
36 "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"
37 The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."
=============================

EXACTAMUNDO!!!!!!!!!!  Grin  Grin  Grin
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« Reply #34 on: February 01, 2004, 05:22:52 PM »

OK.  I'm aware of that interview and have heard Dr. Graham say similar things.  Which answers my question:
Quote
He has said that he believes there are other ways for salvation.
is your personal interpretation of what Dr. Graham is saying.
My personal interpretation is quite different.  In the text of the interview you provide, Dr. Graham says
Quote
He's calling people out of the world for His name, whether the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ because they've been called by GOD. They may not even know the name of Jesus but they know in their hearts they need something that they don't have, and they turn to the only light that they have, and I think they are saved, and that they're going to be with us in heaven.
Key words here: they come from

I also come from a life of sin into Jesus arms.

I also believe Dr. Graham is implying the following scenarios:

A man takes his family far into the wilderness.  Eventually all the family members are dead except for the youngest.  This last living member of the family has never been introduced to Jesus or to a Bible – this person, having been completely isolated for life, believes that a Grand Maker had to have been responsible for everything.  This person knows in his heart that God (although that may not be what this person knows to call Him) exists, and this person has reached a point of love and understanding with this Supreme Being with whom he has never been “officially” introduced.  This person dies.  Is this person condemned to everlasting hell, or is he forgiven?

A young child is born to Muslim parents.  He grows up in the Muslim traditions.  He is force-fed the Muslim way of life.  It is the only life he has ever known, because those around him will not allow any other teaching to ever reach his ears, or other reading to ever be placed before his eyes, or any other words ever to be muttered by his lips.  But this man knows in his heart that God is greater than what he has been allowed to learn.  He believes in his heart that God is much greater and forgiving then the god of the Muslims.  He longs for the real God with all his heart – just as he has his entire life – but others have completely shielded him from the true Word.  This man dies.  Is he condemned to everlasting hell, or is he forgiven by the blood of Calvary?

Repeat the above and substitute Muslim with Buddhist.  Is this person condemned to everlasting hell for never being permitted to hear the Truth – even though he knows in his heart the Truth is there – somewhere?

God has said he will not return until every heart has a chance to hear His word and accept or reject Him.  However, what about those who died before they had a chance to hear the Word?  Are they condemned to everlasting hell?  What about those who are locked away from the Word?  Are they condemned to everlasting hell?  What about those who are deaf, dumb and blind – are they condemned to everlasting hell?  

What about you, my friend?  Are you condemned to everlasting hell?  What about me?  Am I condemned to everlasting hell?  

I believe you have taken the words of Dr. Graham and bent them to suit your personal ‘crusade’.

May God bless and be with you always.
JN
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MalkyEL
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« Reply #35 on: February 01, 2004, 09:09:12 PM »

Judge Not quoted:
Billy Graham [from part 1 - interview with Schuller]:
Well, Christianity and being a true believer--you know, I think there's the Body of Christ. This comes from all the Christian groups around the world, outside the Christian groups.  I think everybody that loves Christ, or knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the Body of Christ.And I don't think that we're going to see a great sweeping revival that will turn the whole world to Christ at any time. I think James answered that, the Apostle James in the first council in Jerusalem, when he said God's purpose for this age is to call out a people for His name. And that's what God is doing today, He's calling people out of the world for His name, whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ because they've been called by GOD. They may not even know the name of Jesus but they know in their hearts they need something that they don't have, and they turn to the only light that they have, and I think they are saved, and that they're going to be with us in heaven.

John 3:16 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18 The one believing into Him is not condemned; but the one not believing has already been condemned, for he has not believed into the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

1 John 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love having been perfected is in us.
13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because of His Spirit He has given to us.
14 ¶ And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.


1 John 5:10   ¶ The one believing in the Son of God has the witness in himself. The one not believing God has made Him a liar.

Judge Not wrote:
. . .  This person knows in his heart that God (although that may not be what this person knows to call Him) exists, and this person has reached a point of love and understanding with this Supreme Being with whom he has never been “officially” introduced.  This person dies.  Is this person condemned to everlasting hell, or is he forgiven?

 . . .   He longs for the real God with all his heart – just as he has his entire life – but others have completely shielded him from the true Word.  This man dies.  Is he condemned to everlasting hell, or is he forgiven by the blood of Calvary?

MalkyEL:   Unless a person believes in and receives Jesus as Savior and God, they are condemned to hell.


 Judge Not  wrote:   God has said he will not return until every heart has a chance to hear His word and accept or reject Him.

MalkyEL:  Would you please find me some Scriptural references for this?  Thanx.

Judge Not  wrote:  However, what about those who died before they had a chance to hear the Word?  Are they condemned to everlasting hell?  What about those who are locked away from the Word?  Are they condemned to everlasting hell?  What about those who are deaf, dumb and blind – are they condemned to everlasting hell?  

Rom 9:14 ¶ What shall we say then? Is there not unrighteousness with God? Let it not be!
15 For He said to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
16 So then it is not of the one willing, nor of the one running, but of God, the One showing mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "Even for this same purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth."
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He will have mercy , and whom He will, He hardens.
19 You will then say to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will?
20 No, but, O man, who are you who replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him who formed it , Why have you made me this way?
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel to honor and another to dishonor?
22 What if God, willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction;
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy which He had before prepared to glory;
24 whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also of the nations?

Judge Not wrote:   What about you, my friend?  Are you condemned to everlasting hell?  What about me?  Am I condemned to everlasting hell?  

MalkyEL:   I am not condemned to hell.  God's Spirit lives within me.  I once thought I was saved.  At 16 I got "saved" but did not give my life over to God as Master and King.  For 30 years I served the church believing that my "righteous" behavior secured my place in heaven.  I was very wrong.  It was not until I met Him face to face that I realized I was headed for hell.  Giving my life over to the redeeming work of Jesus, has made all the difference in my life.   My heart confirms I belong to Him because He is my Everything.  I am His son.

Rom 8:10 ¶ But if Christ is in you, the body indeed is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of the One having raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One having raised the Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies live through the indwelling of His Spirit in you.
12 So, then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to flesh,
13 for if you live according to flesh, you are going to die. But if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery again to fear, but you received a Spirit of adoption by which we cry, Abba! Father!
16 The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God.


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« Reply #36 on: February 01, 2004, 09:38:05 PM »

I don't argue with your scriptural references, brother, but with your interpretation of those same references.  I could use the same references to make my point.

I cannot find it in my heart to condemn those who have not heard, or who have been prohibited from hearing, God’s final Word.  Maybe Jesus sees it differently, but not from what I have been taught and not from what I feel in my heart.  

From what I’ve been taught He loves every sole – showing favoritism to none.  As I have seen posted so many times on this forum – “we will all find out soon enough”.

Jesus died for ALL sin.  ALL sin.  

Try to imagine the burden on Him on the cross – ALL sin being delivered to Him in His last dying moment.  I can’t imagine that weight.  He had already been tortured beyond imagination with everything man had to dish out.  Adding to that ALL the sin of man, past, present and future, is so far beyond my comprehension that I weep when I consider it.

To think He did that for a select few who believe a certain way according to a particular denomination's belief is totally alien to me, and will remain so.
 
Your brother in Him,
JN
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« Reply #37 on: February 01, 2004, 09:39:44 PM »

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

Reference Billy Graham, it makes me very sad to hear this. First, I don't know anything about Masonry, so maybe I should look this up and get a partial education.

I know that Billy Graham has pointed many lost people to Christ. My church has supported his ministry for many years. In reading some of the contents of the interviews, I couldn't help but wonder if some of his statements were due to age and illness. He has been pretty ill for about 10 years. If he did say all of those things, I wouldn't try to write them off completely because of illness. One would think that someone younger, stronger, and healthier in his staff or another brother in Christ would talk to him and maybe even convince him to retire.

I'll have to say that I've heard a ton of his messages from the pulpit, and all of the ones I heard were quite Biblical. The whole thing makes me very sad.

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #38 on: February 01, 2004, 10:33:04 PM »

a sad amen Cry  Tom
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« Reply #39 on: February 01, 2004, 10:55:26 PM »

I don't think Billy Graham is saying anyone is saved without Christ. I think he's saying God calls people out of all situations, and even in tribal areas where there is no Bible, God is capable of reaching them anyway. And they turn from their darkness, to Christ.

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« Reply #40 on: February 02, 2004, 12:01:32 AM »





    Grin
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« Reply #41 on: February 02, 2004, 12:05:27 AM »

Judge Not wrote:   I don't argue with your scriptural references, brother, but with your interpretation of those same references.  I could use the same references to make my point.

MalkyEL:  sorry - I am a sister in Messiah  Smiley, but consider myself a son of God, sorry for the confusion.

Judge Not wrote:  I cannot find it in my heart to condemn those who have not heard, or who have been prohibited from hearing, God’s final Word.  Maybe Jesus sees it differently, but not from what I have been taught and not from what I feel in my heart.

Rom1:16 ¶ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation to everyone believing, both to Jew first, and to Greek;
17 for in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; even as it has been written, "But the just shall live by faith." Hab. 2:4

Rom 10:9 Because if you confess the Lord Jesus with your mouth, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation.
13 For everyone, "whoever may call on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Joel 2:32
14 How then may they call on One into whom they have not believed? And how may they believe One of whom they have not heard? And how may they hear without preaching?
15 And how may they preach if they are not sent? Even as it has been written, "How beautiful" "the feet of those preaching the gospel of peace, of those preaching the gospel of good things." Isa. 52:7
16 But not all obeyed the gospel, for Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" Isa. 53:1
17 Then faith is of hearing, and hearing through the Word of God.

John 15:5 I am the Vine; you are the branches. The one abiding in Me, and I in him, this one bears much fruit, because apart from Me you are not able to execute, nothing.
6 Unless one remains in Me, he is cast out as the branch and is dried up; and they gather and throw them into a fire, and they are burned.7 If you remain in Me, and My Words remain in you, whatever you desire you will ask, and it shall happen to you.
8 In this My Father is glorified, that you should bear much fruit; and you will be disciples to Me.

Heb 7:25 And from this He is able to save to the end completely the ones drawing near to God through Him, forever living to intercede on their behalf.

Judge Not wrote:  Jesus died for ALL sin.  ALL sin.  

Try to imagine the burden on Him on the cross – ALL sin being delivered to Him in His last dying moment.  I can’t imagine that weight.  He had already been tortured beyond imagination with everything man had to dish out.  Adding to that ALL the sin of man, past, present and future, is so far beyond my comprehension that I weep when I consider it.


Heb9:28   so Christ having been once offered "to bear the sins of many," Christ shall appear a second time without sin to those expecting Him for salvation. Isa. 53:12

Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through the faith of Jesus Christ, toward all and upon all those who believe. For there is no difference,
23 for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God,
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness through the passing by of the sins that had taken place before, in the forbearance of God;
26 for the display of His righteousness at this time, for Him to be just and, forgiving the one being of the faith of Jesus.

Rom 5:14 But death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is the type of Him who was to come;
15 but the free gift shall not be also like the offense. For if by the offense of the one many died, much more the grace of God, and the gift in grace; which is of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
16 And the free gift shall not be as by one having sinned; (for indeed the judgment was of one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses to justification.
17 For if by one man's offense death reigned by one, much more they who receive abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by one offense sentence came on all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came to all men to justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous.


Judge Not wrote:     To think He did that for a select few who believe a certain way according to a particular denomination's belief is totally alien to me, and will remain so.

MalkyEL:   According to the Word of God, Jesus died for the sins of those would receive salvation.  Salvation is available to all, but not all accept it.  Therefore, sin is not forgiven unless it is repented of.  Once one belongs to Jesus and He lives fully in that person, sin becomes anathema to that person - putting the sinful desires to death.  That means the intent of the heart is pure before God and sin from that point on does not condemn that person because he has been washed in the blood of Jesus.  For those who are not saved, there is no forgiveness of sin.  That is not a denominational teaching, that is the Word of God on the matter.

 
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Be mindful of the prisoners, as having been bound with them; of those ill-treated, as also being in the body yourselves.  Hebrews 13:3
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« Reply #42 on: February 02, 2004, 05:29:55 AM »

Quote
I don't think Billy Graham is saying anyone is saved without Christ. I think he's saying God calls people out of all situations, and even in tribal areas where there is no Bible, God is capable of reaching them anyway. And they turn from their darkness, to Christ.

That was my understanding of it, too.... Undecided
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« Reply #43 on: February 03, 2004, 09:44:48 PM »

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

I was just thinking about missionaries serving all over the world trying to share the Word of God. Many members of my family are missionaries, and I've listened to many stories about poverty stricken, primitive, and very simple people.

Many of them know almost nothing of the world, they can't read, and their language skills consist of maybe the vocabulary of a 4 or 5 year-old in our country. The problem is much bigger than just getting a Bible into their hands. They first have to be taught to survive long enough to receive the message. I want to study some before I say anything about what's on my mind and heart. Our infants and small children might be compared to them in terms of knowledge. The question I have on my heart is this: "Is there an accountability factor of any type or form?" This might seem like a silly question, but it is one that I've pondered before and never had the chance to search HIS WORD for. If someone has studied this specific topic, I would appreciate you sharing with us.

I'm also thinking of wonderful and loving Christian parents looking at their infant in the crib. We all know there isn't any way they can teach the Gospel of God's Grace to that 3 month old child, regardless of how much or how hard they might want to try. Maybe this is an easier topic than the primitive and ignorant people in the jungle. Is there an accountability factor of some sort? What are your thoughts?

I know it is much better to have never heard the Gospel than to hear it and reject it. (Just more food for thought).

Love In Christ,
Tom
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KittiK
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« Reply #44 on: February 03, 2004, 10:14:19 PM »

Isn't this where "condition of the heart" comes in?
What comes out of the fire?
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